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LAXintl
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2012 SNA Slot Allocation Award

Thu Sep 29, 2011 6:16 pm

The Orange County John Wayne Airport 2012 Slot and Capacity Allocation Plan effective January 1, 2012 is out.

Earlier in the year SNA adopted a calendar year basis allocation process instead of its previous long held April 1st scheduling period start date.

The major changes planned for 2012 is the entry of Compass Airlines operating on behalf of Delta.

5 slots were “temporarily” returned to the authority – US Airways/Mesa 4.29, WestJet 1 and United 0.5.

Slight reallocation of slots gives Alaska, Frontier and Southwest Airlines a single additional daily departure.

Airport authority has opted to hang on to the remaining available slots for potential mid-year allocation.

With the expansion of terminal, 4 additional overnight parking authorizations were made available to airlines. 1 AS, 3 UA.


Departure Slots / Seat capacity Allocation

Alaska – 13 / 1,300,764
American – 13 / 1,473,832
Delta – 14 / 1,153,328 (includes 3 Compass)
Frontier – 5 / 404,064
Southwest – 49 / 4,715,540
United – 19.5 / 1,829,486
US Airways – 2.4 / 691,642 (includes any Mesa)
WestJet – 1 / 166,736

Fedex - .724
UPS - .557

[Edited 2011-09-29 11:33:12]
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
BoeingGuy
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RE: 2012 SNA Slot Allocation Award

Thu Sep 29, 2011 7:09 pm

Does QX still have their application? They are about at the top of the list by now, right?

It's a pretty good speculation that AS/QX would do SNA-SJC with the Q400 if they obtain slots. With AA and B6 dropping out of SNA/LGB-SJC, I believe that AS would well succeed in that market. WN has a monopoly now.
 
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SANFan
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RE: 2012 SNA Slot Allocation Award

Thu Sep 29, 2011 7:49 pm

Interesting to see the return of one of WS's slots. I'll have to look into which flight (YVR or YYC) they'll be dropping... (Or if maybe that will be one of those "potential mid-year allocations.") Is it too early to talk about how Canada just doesn't seem to work well from SNA?

Otherwise, things seem to be pretty much as expected.

bb
 
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SANFan
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RE: 2012 SNA Slot Allocation Award

Thu Sep 29, 2011 8:16 pm

Looks like the SNA-YYC service is getting the axe (already?) The website shows no service in the market starting Oct 30; SNA-YVR appears to be continuing as daily.

This whole WS-at-John Wayne was interesting to me; they came in with guns blazing (sorry) -- daily summer service to both YVR and YYC -- while down the road here in SAN, they have maintained a very careful, slow, and totally different approach to their route to YYC. They (re-)started service during summer of 2009 4x weekly from Lindbergh; it has been year-round service but with reduced freq in the winter. For summer of 2011, they flew the route 5x weekly and will maintain service 4x weekly this coming winter.)

There was some thinking that the service from SNA might hurt the WS SAN op's. Apparently, that was not the case!

Very different strategies by WestJet at two "other" SoCal airports that are not that far apart. This will be an interesting situation to follow IMHO. Also, AS, AC have both tried -- and stopped -- Canada flights from Orange County and now WS seems to be having some troubles as well.

bb
 
ScottB
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RE: 2012 SNA Slot Allocation Award

Thu Sep 29, 2011 8:22 pm

Quoting LAXintl (Thread starter):
5 slots were “temporarily” returned to the authority – US Airways/Mesa 4.29

I can't believe that US gave up the majority of their slots at SNA. Do they really intend to reduce SNA-PHX to less than three daily flights?
 
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LAXintl
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RE: 2012 SNA Slot Allocation Award

Thu Sep 29, 2011 8:41 pm

Quoting BoeingGuy (Reply 1):
Does QX still have their application? They are about at the top of the list by now, right?

Horizon passed on slots. They could have have had up to 3-slots this year as a new entrant.

I just dont think AS has the free Horizon capacity since after all they have had to hire Skywest to operate on their behalf.

Also I'm sorry but just I cant see 3 daily QX Q400 possibly go up against 9 daily SWA 737 trips SJC with much success.

Quoting SANFan (Reply 3):
This whole WS-at-John Wayne was interesting to me; they came in with guns blazing (sorry) -- daily summer service to both YVR and YYC --

In honesty they came in as a result of holiday package deal with Disney. Clearly traffic did not pan out.

Places like LAX, SAN are sold as broader destinations on their own, while SNA and PSP are sold as a very specific niches.

Quoting ScottB (Reply 4):
I can't believe that US gave up the majority of their slots at SNA. Do they really intend to reduce SNA-PHX to less than three daily flights?

Yes. Remember they announced also they are contracting out handling at SNA effective January 2012.

Anyhow, they can always use Mesa with small RJs and have them operate using commuter slots if they desire. (as UA does with Skywest)
The above counts are regular air-carrier slots.
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
slcdeltarumd11
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RE: 2012 SNA Slot Allocation Award

Thu Sep 29, 2011 8:43 pm

Quoting LAXintl (Thread starter):
5 slots were “temporarily” returned to the authority – US Airways/Mesa 4.29

Good news for DL and UA who connect alot of these same passengers thru SLC and DEN.

IIRC wasn't there a rumor on here that US was gonna leave LGB and consolidate at SNA? I guess not right now at least.

Quoting LAXintl (Thread starter):
Delta – 14 / 1,153,328 (includes 3 Compass)

Compass looks to be E175 three times to SLC. Probably a pretty good plane for this route. I don't remember seeing alot of E175s at SLC are there other routes or new ones coming?
 
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LAXintl
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RE: 2012 SNA Slot Allocation Award

Thu Sep 29, 2011 8:59 pm

Whats interesting is Delta has shrunk at SNA quite a bit itself.

Today are flights are operated with the smallest possible mainline equipment 737-700/A319's, and now they plan to shift flights to regional partners.

Gone are the days of multiple 757s etc..

Quoting slcdeltarumd11 (Reply 6):
Compass

For record the Compass noise validation test took place yesterday.
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
n7371f
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RE: 2012 SNA Slot Allocation Award

Thu Sep 29, 2011 9:11 pm

Quoting slcdeltarumd11 (Reply 6):

Compass looks to be E175 three times to SLC. Probably a pretty good plane for this route. I don't remember seeing alot of E175s at SLC are there other routes or new ones coming?

There are no E175's at SLC currently.
 
ScottB
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RE: 2012 SNA Slot Allocation Award

Thu Sep 29, 2011 9:41 pm

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 5):
Yes. Remember they announced also they are contracting out handling at SNA effective January 2012.

Anyhow, they can always use Mesa with small RJs and have them operate using commuter slots if they desire. (as UA does with Skywest)

Good point about Mesa with small RJ's, although I was under the impression that US was phasing out CR2 ops on YV. The CR9 can't use commuter slots, although I suppose they could perhaps shift some of PSA's CR7's out to PHX in future.

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 5):
Places like LAX, SAN are sold as broader destinations on their own, while SNA and PSP are sold as a very specific niches.

It is also very difficult to sell infrequent service to a niche market when there is more frequent service available within a short driving distance.
 
BoeingGuy
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RE: 2012 SNA Slot Allocation Award

Thu Sep 29, 2011 10:28 pm

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 5):
Also I'm sorry but just I cant see 3 daily QX Q400 possibly go up against 9 daily SWA 737 trips SJC with much success.

Sure I can. It's a short flight so not much disadvantage to the Q. AS is building a presence in SJC, presumably with a fair amount of FF membership. And the free beer and assigned seats are better.

I'd personally choose AS/QX over WN anytime if I were flying SNA-SJC (which several of my family members do fly several times a year for family visits).
 
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LAXintl
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RE: 2012 SNA Slot Allocation Award

Fri Sep 30, 2011 12:07 am

If AS/QX was so interested in SoCal flying from SJC they can launch BUR, ONT or LAX tomorrow, or even use some of their LGB slots for such.
But instead AS/QX has shrunk its intra-CA presence, more specifically dropped all its previous Bay Area- So Cal services.

Going against SWA is nothing but a slugfest. Just ask how well AA fared going again SWA between SNA to SJC.
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
BoeingGuy
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RE: 2012 SNA Slot Allocation Award

Fri Sep 30, 2011 12:16 am

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 11):
specifically dropped all its previous Bay Area- So Cal services.

Did QX SJC-LAX go somewhere?
 
mikesairways
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RE: 2012 SNA Slot Allocation Award

Fri Sep 30, 2011 12:17 am

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 11):
If AS/QX was so interested in SoCal flying from SJC they can launch BUR, ONT or LAX tomorrow, or even use some of their LGB slots for such.

They already fly SJC-LAX...3 or 4 flights per day (unless I've missed something).
The red zone is for the immediate loading and unloading of passengers only, there is no stopping in the white zone...(Ai
 
FWAERJ
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RE: 2012 SNA Slot Allocation Award

Fri Sep 30, 2011 12:19 am

I'm surprised that NK didn't participate this time. There were rumors of NK bidding for SNA slots in the past.
B721/722/731/732/733/735/73G/738/739/742/752/753/762/763, A300/319/320, DC-9/10, MD-82/83/88/90, ERJ-140/145, CRJ-200/700, Q200, SF340, AS350
 
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fxramper
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RE: 2012 SNA Slot Allocation Award

Fri Sep 30, 2011 12:29 am

Quoting LAXintl (Thread starter):
Airport authority has opted to hang on to the remaining available slots for potential mid-year allocation.

I was wondering where your thread was after seeing this news online. Look forward to the mid-year update thread from you regarding SNA slots.   

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 7):
Whats interesting is Delta has shrunk at SNA quite a bit itself.

Interesting or surprising? I'm not surprised in the regression.
 
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LAXintl
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RE: 2012 SNA Slot Allocation Award

Fri Sep 30, 2011 12:33 am

SJC-LAX is a means to get the Q400 and crews to LAX and rotate across the other LAX Q400 flying.

AS is hardly a strong competiror (look at the DOT numbers), matter of fact its the worst of the crowd in revenue and yield performance. To have some market semblance they even have to code-share on AA's ERJ to give the appearance of more than 3 flights a day.

All the other Bay Area- SoCal markets - BUR, ONT, SAN, SNA and LAX were dropped one by one by AS.

Quoting FWAERJ (Reply 14):
I'm surprised that NK didn't participate this time. There were rumors of NK bidding for SNA slots in the past.

They have not gotten on the waiting list. Horizon was the first up, and passed.

Matter of fact any new entrant that wanted could have started service this year with up to 3 flights, as the slots were available.
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
furlough
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RE: 2012 SNA Slot Allocation Award

Fri Sep 30, 2011 12:49 am

Quoting LAXintl (Thread starter):
5 slots were “temporarily” returned to the authority – US Airways/Mesa 4.29, WestJet 1 and United 0.5.

Very interesting, I can't imagine it would be very useful to fly SNA-PHX less than 3 times a day on average. Maybe they are gonna gut PHX and add CLT/PHL. Maybe something bigger is in stow for US and the PHX hub overall??
 
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FedExFlyerPHL
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RE: 2012 SNA Slot Allocation Award

Fri Sep 30, 2011 3:09 am

Quoting ScottB (Reply 9):
Good point about Mesa with small RJ's, although I was under the impression that US was phasing out CR2 ops on YV.

If I remember correctly, aren't they replacing YV CRJ-200 and Dash 8s with OO CRJ-200/-700s? Do the -700s fall under commuter slots or mainline slots?

Quoting Furlough (Reply 17):
Maybe they are gonna gut PHX and add CLT/PHL. Maybe something bigger is in stow for US and the PHX hub overall??

I am keeping my fingers crossed that US eventually brings back SNA-PHL at some point!

Jeff
Home base: SNA, LGB, LAX
 
slcdeltarumd11
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RE: 2012 SNA Slot Allocation Award

Fri Sep 30, 2011 5:28 am

Has there been anything at LGB changed for US lately? Maybe that rumor was wrong but just flipped and they are gonna rev down SNA in favor of LGB? Just thinking outside the box.

I am interested to know about the E175s in SLC. I wonder if they are literally just bringing them in for SNA or if they will be coming from the East before they continue onto SNA?
 
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RWA380
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RE: 2012 SNA Slot Allocation Award

Fri Sep 30, 2011 6:54 am

Yes, AS flew SNA-OAK several times daily and discontinued those a while ago in favor of non-stops to SEA & PDX. I don't see much advantage to AS flying So Cal to Bay Area with WN's presence. AS has bigger opportunities to utilize aircraft on. Skywest flying for AS is about the fact AS wanted to consolidate to one type, the Q400, and there are some QX routes the Q400 doesn't work, like SEA-LGB and they needed to retain the CR7 on. If AS wanted to operate a new route with the Q400 tomorrow they could find the frames, no problem.
707 717 720 727-1/2 737-1/2/3/4/5/6/7/8/9 747-1/2/3/4 757-2/3 767-2/3/4 777-2/3 DC8 DC9 MD80/2/7/8 D10-1/3/4 M11 L10-1/2/5 A300/310/320
AA AC AQ AS BA BD BN CO CS DL EA EZ HA HG HP KL KN MP MW NK NW OZ PA PS QX RC RH RW SA TG TW UA US VS WA WC WN WP YS 8M
 
HPRamper
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RE: 2012 SNA Slot Allocation Award

Fri Sep 30, 2011 1:19 pm

Quoting Furlough (Reply 17):
Very interesting, I can't imagine it would be very useful to fly SNA-PHX less than 3 times a day on average. Maybe they are gonna gut PHX and add CLT/PHL. Maybe something bigger is in stow for US and the PHX hub overall??

Why not pull down PHX-SNA, when soon they will have an LAX hub when they merge with AA   

Kidding, kidding.
 
wnflyguy
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RE: 2012 SNA Slot Allocation Award

Sat Oct 01, 2011 12:27 am

US/HP 3 flights a day that sucks. I'm in shock I think it's the curse of USAIR when USAIR bought PSA with in a few years USAIR killed off all the good strong markets they picked up from PSA. What's more crazy is America West bought UsAirways this time and still the west coast people take it in the rear. I don't under stand what the CEO IS THINKING. Let's BUY/ MERGE with a failing airline then in a few years i will turn my back on my own employes that helped make my HP strong and favor the airline we bought and that has a history of running it's self into the ground. I wish all my friends at SNA good luck. wnfg
My Wings are clipped just another Retired Airline person. The Ultimate Armchair out of the loop airline industry geek. Aloha Mr Hand!
 
gmcc
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RE: 2012 SNA Slot Allocation Award

Fri Oct 14, 2011 3:49 pm

Quoting LAXintl (Thread starter):
Airport authority has opted to hang on to the remaining available slots for potential mid-year allocation.

And now we know why the airport hung onto the remaining slots as yesterday they post a proposed Air Service Development Incentive Program for Mexico, potentially $300,000 for the year, to be awarded in June 2012 on the website www.ocair.com . There are trying to get someone to use those brand new international gates.
 
furlough
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RE: 2012 SNA Slot Allocation Award

Fri Oct 14, 2011 3:55 pm

Just as a correction to what has been discussed here, it appears as if the 5 slots US is temporarily giving up is coming from the 11 that US has... therefore, US will be at 6 flights a day for the foreseeable future. It looked confusing the way it had been written, but after looking at the slot allocation, it is clear that US will be at 6.something flights per week.
 
wnflyguy
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RE: 2012 SNA Slot Allocation Award

Sat Oct 15, 2011 3:59 pm

Quoting Furlough (Reply 24):

It's been few years since my SNA days I totally for got the seat allocation can be shuffled throughout the year.
Airlines save seats from reduced weekend and holiday flying and reshuffle the seat which gives them extra seats during peak times Monday thru Friday. I will be heading thru SNA this week and I will ask my friend at Usairways what up with they flights next year.
Talking to my friends at WN SNA there adding 3 new flights in JUNE 2012 rumor around the station is they are getting 1 more MDW n/s and 2 new ATL n/s..enjoy wnfg  
My Wings are clipped just another Retired Airline person. The Ultimate Armchair out of the loop airline industry geek. Aloha Mr Hand!
 
wedgetail737
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RE: 2012 SNA Slot Allocation Award

Sat Oct 15, 2011 4:28 pm

I don't disagree with any of what LAXINT says about QX and SJC. With the limited flying resources QX or AS has right now, those airplanes are better used from the Pacific Northwest. Those fans of AS of SJC has seen AS growth come and go over time. Right now, SJC is seeing some good service like additional Hawaii flights, reinstated Mexico flights, SJC-LAX and new seasonal SJC-PSP routes. Mainline intra-CA service is almost non-existent. I think there is still the seasonal SFO-PSP and maybe the SFO-LAX.

It seems like when an airline expands greatly in the Bay Area, it gets absorbed by a larger carrier and the service is routinely discontinued, i.e. AirCal, PSA, Reno Air. SJC today has plenty of room for a regional hub, no doubt.
 
HPRamper
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RE: 2012 SNA Slot Allocation Award

Sat Oct 15, 2011 6:42 pm

Quoting wedgetail737 (Reply 26):
SJC today has plenty of room for a regional hub, no doubt.

Plenty of room yes but it's the traffic that counts. It would be a purely O&D sort of operation as SJC doesn't feed into any international networks. You would also only get South Bay traffic, OAK and SFO pull off pretty much anyone from north of Fremont and Palo Alto, OAK is also a quite large WN station so the fares aren't bad there.
 
nicksair
Posts: 422
Joined: Wed Aug 07, 2002 4:43 pm

RE: 2012 SNA Slot Allocation Award

Sat Oct 15, 2011 6:50 pm

Quoting wedgetail737 (Reply 26):
I think there is still the seasonal SFO-PSP and maybe the SFO-LAX.

SFO-PSP is year-round now with 2x a day flights, tagged on with SEA-SFO trips. And SFO-LAX unfortunately hasnt been around for coming up on 3 years now i believe.

'2NW
Nicholas William Reed KSAN/KSFO/KBOS/KPDX

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