Moderators: jsumali2, richierich, ua900, PanAm_DC10, hOMSaR

 
san88
Topic Author
Posts: 113
Joined: Wed Jul 26, 2006 3:30 am

WN Hiring Pilots

Thu Oct 06, 2011 1:53 am

WN will be hiring additional 140 pilots, applications will accepted between October 6 -12 (will be posted on Southwest.com/careers on the 6th) Only qualified applicants will be considered.

Cheers!
sit on the Captain side when you fly into SAN
 
flymia
Posts: 7127
Joined: Thu Jun 14, 2001 6:33 am

RE: WN Hiring Pilots

Thu Oct 06, 2011 2:07 pm

Quoting san88 (Thread starter):
WN will be hiring additional 140 pilots, applications will accepted between October 6 -12 (will be posted on Southwest.com/careers on the 6th) Only qualified applicants will be considered.

Anyone know the last time they hired?

I am sure they are looking for 5,000TT 2000PIC turbine guys.
"It was just four of us on the flight deck, trying to do our job" (Captain Al Haynes)
 
FutureFO
Posts: 2812
Joined: Sat Oct 06, 2001 10:58 pm

RE: WN Hiring Pilots

Thu Oct 06, 2011 2:14 pm

Is this to bypass integration with the FL guys???
I Don't know where I am anymore
 
blueflyer
Posts: 4352
Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2006 4:17 am

RE: WN Hiring Pilots

Thu Oct 06, 2011 2:23 pm

Why do they want letters of recommendation? Is that their way of making sure they don't hire a lousy pilot who's been lucky enough not to get nailed in a simulator yet?

It's not like I stay on top of pilot job offers regularly, but I'd never read until now an airline asking for letters of recommendation. Is it a "Southwest thing" ?

Quoting flymia (Reply 1):
I am sure they are looking for 5,000TT 2000PIC turbine guys.

Try half, but with other airlines still having furloughed crew, I doubt meeting the minimum requirements will get you very far.
 
DashTrash
Posts: 1317
Joined: Mon Aug 21, 2006 8:44 am

RE: WN Hiring Pilots

Thu Oct 06, 2011 3:07 pm

Quoting blueflyer (Reply 3):
It's not like I stay on top of pilot job offers regularly, but I'd never read until now an airline asking for letters of recommendation. Is it a "Southwest thing" ?

You've never looked at FedEx then.
 
Clipper002
Posts: 663
Joined: Wed Aug 11, 2004 4:24 am

RE: WN Hiring Pilots

Thu Oct 06, 2011 3:41 pm

Quote Flymia

I am sure they are looking for 5,000TT 2000PIC turbine guys

Looking for 2,500 TT and 1,000 PIC Turban.

No Letter of Recommendation mentioned.

Ed
Ed
 
apodino
Posts: 3922
Joined: Mon Apr 04, 2005 2:11 am

RE: WN Hiring Pilots

Thu Oct 06, 2011 4:00 pm

In the past they have required letters of recommendation that attest to the pilots flying skills. I know they also require 1000 PIC ME Turbine. They used to also require a 737 type rating prior to starting. Is that still the case?
 
blueflyer
Posts: 4352
Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2006 4:17 am

RE: WN Hiring Pilots

Thu Oct 06, 2011 4:56 pm

Quoting Clipper002 (Reply 5):
No Letter of Recommendation mentioned.

I know the "official" listing doesn't mention it, but the generic pilot requirements page does:
http://www.southwest.com/html/about-...west/careers/positions/pilots.html

I've learned since my earlier post that one of these letters better be from a current Southwest pilot to even stand a chance at being hired.

Quoting DashTrash (Reply 4):
You've never looked at FedEx then.

Evidently, I have not. Not a bad thing when you think about it, if more airline around the world did so, it might be harder for dishonest pilots to lie about their skills and qualifications, although I suspect that some airlines aren't interested in digging deep into the background of their prospective employees either.
 
Type-Rated
Posts: 3901
Joined: Sun Sep 19, 1999 5:18 am

RE: WN Hiring Pilots

Thu Oct 06, 2011 5:39 pm

I've heard that in order to be hired by FedEx as pilot you better know several FedEx pilots very well. It's an established network.
Fly North Central Airlines..The route of the Northliners!
 
FlyASAGuy2005
Posts: 3965
Joined: Sun Sep 23, 2007 4:55 am

RE: WN Hiring Pilots

Thu Oct 06, 2011 5:55 pm

Quoting FutureFO (Reply 2):
Is this to bypass integration with the FL guys???



Of course not. WN still needs to fund their own flying you know...

Quoting blueflyer (Reply 3):
It's not like I stay on top of pilot job offers regularly, but I'd never read until now an airline asking for letters of recommendation. Is it a "Southwest thing" ?



Not uncommon. Most to all private jet flight departments require some sort of recommendation and at Delta, although it isn't always specifically listed, it's known that you should have one or two recommendations from DL line pilots along with your app. It's VERY competative and many times is who you know. Even then, it'll only get you an interview but doesn't lock in the job.
What gets measured gets done.
 
apodino
Posts: 3922
Joined: Mon Apr 04, 2005 2:11 am

RE: WN Hiring Pilots

Thu Oct 06, 2011 6:30 pm

Quoting blueflyer (Reply 7):

Evidently, I have not. Not a bad thing when you think about it, if more airline around the world did so, it might be harder for dishonest pilots to lie about their skills and qualifications, although I suspect that some airlines aren't interested in digging deep into the background of their prospective employees either.

It can be a good thing, but it can also be a bad thing. When Politics gets in the way of a hiring process, it can lead to bad things. In the case of pilots, with jumpseat benefits networking should be a cinch. But the problem is when a guy comes from a carrier like GoJet. He may be the greatest pilot in the world, but because of what is percieved by many pilots to be a scab operation, good luck getting a pilot to recommend him.

Bottom line is I think letters of recommendation can help you, but not having one shouldn't hurt you either.
 
flymia
Posts: 7127
Joined: Thu Jun 14, 2001 6:33 am

RE: WN Hiring Pilots

Thu Oct 06, 2011 7:21 pm

Quoting blueflyer (Reply 3):
Try half, but with other airlines still having furloughed crew, I doubt meeting the minimum requirements will get you very far.
Quoting Clipper002 (Reply 5):
Looking for 2,500 TT and 1,000 PIC Turban.


I knew their mins would not be that high but I highly doubt someone with 2,500TT will get even a call back. After UPS and Fed Ex this is probably the best airline to fly for in the US as long you don't care about getting on the wide body one day.

Quoting apodino (Reply 6):
They used to also require a 737 type rating prior to starting. Is that still the case?


Yes they still do.

Quoting type-rated (Reply 8):
e heard that in order to be hired by FedEx as pilot you better know several FedEx pilots very well. It's an established network.


I have heard that also. One of the best pilot jobs out there, they do not make it easy.

Quoting blueflyer (Reply 3):
Why do they want letters of recommendation? Is


Why not? This is one of the most professional jobs out there. I needed multiple letters of rec to get into grad school or college, need letters or rec to apply for internships. Why should they not get them.

Quoting apodino (Reply 10):
good luck getting a pilot to recommend him.


Well since some of the people who already chose who to hire are pilots it can hurt them even without a letter.

Quoting apodino (Reply 10):
Bottom line is I think letters of recommendation can help you, but not having one shouldn't hurt you either.


If you cant find a pilot or two that can say your a good responsible pilot and good guy by the time you have 2,500TT there are some problems.
"It was just four of us on the flight deck, trying to do our job" (Captain Al Haynes)
 
saab2000
Posts: 1232
Joined: Thu Jun 21, 2001 6:19 pm

RE: WN Hiring Pilots

Thu Oct 06, 2011 7:58 pm

I'd go to SWA in a heartbeat. Best run passenger airline in the US. I think I shall apply.
smrtrthnu
 
blueflyer
Posts: 4352
Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2006 4:17 am

RE: WN Hiring Pilots

Thu Oct 06, 2011 8:52 pm

Quoting flymia (Reply 11):
Why not? This is one of the most professional jobs out there.

I'm not against it at all, but for a profession that is so regulated, that has so many manuals and SOPs, compared to others, I would have thought it may not be necessary. Different schools have different academic standards, so an A at one may not be worth an A at another, and grad schools may not judge on academic performance at all, but in the airline world... If you have an ATPL, 1,000 PIC on 737 and pass the flight sim test, how big of a skills gap is there between you and the next guy with the same creds?

I'm not demeaning pilots, quite the contrary (no pedestal either though - sorry), they have so much recurring training compared to other professions I figure they're (almost) all at the top of their game, that is why it didn't occur to me recommendation letters would be necessary, unless you need to know whether one "plays well with others."

[Edited 2011-10-06 13:55:58]
 
26point2
Posts: 1101
Joined: Wed Mar 03, 2010 6:01 am

RE: WN Hiring Pilots

Thu Oct 06, 2011 9:07 pm

Quoting blueflyer (Reply 13):
I'm not against it at all, but for a profession that is so regulated, that has so many manuals and SOPs, compared to others, I would have thought it may not be necessary

It is relevant. Like most employers, an airline likes to employ people who exibit good character. An FAA test and logbook full of type ratings and PIC hours may not evaluate one's character but a recommendation from your peers will.

By the way, one of the requirements for an FAA ATP is the applicant to be of "..good moral character". This can be used as a disqualifier in a Black and White world such as a felony conviction, but I know plenty of guys who hold ATPs who are, in my opinion, not of good moral character. This is another reason the letter of recommendation is a valuable and relevant tool.
 
GSPSPOT
Posts: 2529
Joined: Thu Sep 11, 2003 1:44 am

RE: WN Hiring Pilots

Thu Oct 06, 2011 9:50 pm

Does this hiring perhaps mean increased flights at existing stations anytime soon?
Great Lakes, great life.
 
xdlx
Posts: 964
Joined: Mon Aug 04, 2008 12:29 pm

RE: WN Hiring Pilots

Thu Oct 06, 2011 9:52 pm

Quoting 26point2 (Reply 14):

Just make sure you are not reccomended by the guy with the "open Mic Rant" ! GRANDE!
 
flymia
Posts: 7127
Joined: Thu Jun 14, 2001 6:33 am

RE: WN Hiring Pilots

Fri Oct 07, 2011 12:56 am

Quoting blueflyer (Reply 13):
If you have an ATPL, 1,000 PIC on 737 and pass the flight sim test, how big of a skills gap is there between you and the next guy with the same creds?

They want to know the person more than just the flying aspects of it. There is more to the job than just flying the airplane. Also these letters or usually from pilots who have know the pilot for years in a flying and personal setting.

Quoting 26point2 (Reply 14):
Quoting blueflyer (Reply 13):

It is relevant. Like most employers, an airline likes to employ people who exibit good character. An FAA test and logbook full of type ratings and PIC hours may not evaluate one's character but a recommendation from your peers will.

By the way, one of the requirements for an FAA ATP is the applicant to be of "..good moral character". This can be used as a disqualifier in a Black and White world such as a felony conviction, but I know plenty of guys who hold ATPs who are, in my opinion, not of good moral character. This is another reason the letter of recommendation is a valuable and relevant tool.

Exactly!

Quoting GSPSPOT (Reply 15):
Does this hiring perhaps mean increased flights at existing stations anytime soon?

Who know's it is possible but it is also likely they have some retiring pilots.
"It was just four of us on the flight deck, trying to do our job" (Captain Al Haynes)
 
apodino
Posts: 3922
Joined: Mon Apr 04, 2005 2:11 am

RE: WN Hiring Pilots

Fri Oct 07, 2011 5:29 am

Quoting 26point2 (Reply 14):


By the way, one of the requirements for an FAA ATP is the applicant to be of "..good moral character". This can be used as a disqualifier in a Black and White world such as a felony conviction, but I know plenty of guys who hold ATPs who are, in my opinion, not of good moral character. This is another reason the letter of recommendation is a valuable and relevant tool.

You find them a lot at the regional level, because these are the first airline jobs people get. Some might argue that much of the USAPA membership is in this category as well  
 
barney captain
Posts: 2350
Joined: Tue Nov 06, 2001 5:47 pm

RE: WN Hiring Pilots

Sat Oct 08, 2011 5:31 pm

The rec letters have much more to do with attitude than any thing else. The aptitude is pretty much a given.
Southeast Of Disorder
 
sandrozrh
Posts: 2419
Joined: Sun Feb 04, 2007 12:19 am

RE: WN Hiring Pilots

Sat Oct 08, 2011 5:38 pm

Why are they asking for 1000hrs PIC Turbine? Are they expecting former/current captains to apply for first officer positions? If they did that over here, they probably wouldn't get a single application, or is there a different meaning to PIC time in the US than here that i don't know of?
 
N1120A
Posts: 26567
Joined: Sun Dec 14, 2003 5:40 pm

RE: WN Hiring Pilots

Sat Oct 08, 2011 6:25 pm

Quoting SandroZRH (Reply 20):
Why are they asking for 1000hrs PIC Turbine? Are they expecting former/current captains to apply for first officer positions? If they did that over here, they probably wouldn't get a single application, or is there a different meaning to PIC time in the US than here that i don't know of?

PIC in the US means the person doing the actual flying. Generally an even split at the airlines, as the pilots rotate who is flying and who is working the radio.
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
flight152
Posts: 3454
Joined: Fri Nov 24, 2000 8:04 am

RE: WN Hiring Pilots

Sat Oct 08, 2011 7:12 pm

Quoting N1120A (Reply 21):
PIC in the US means the person doing the actual flying. Generally an even split at the airlines, as the pilots rotate who is flying and who is working the radio.

That's not really correct. The PIC is the captain, regardless of who is doing the flying.
 
saab2000
Posts: 1232
Joined: Thu Jun 21, 2001 6:19 pm

RE: WN Hiring Pilots

Sat Oct 08, 2011 9:26 pm

Quoting SandroZRH (Reply 20):

Why are they asking for 1000hrs PIC Turbine? Are they expecting former/current captains to apply for first officer positions? If they did that over here, they probably wouldn't get a single application, or is there a different meaning to PIC time in the US than here that i don't know of?


PIC in the US means the pilot who signs for the airplane. In other words, the captain. Jobs at SWA are great jobs and are extremely competitive. I will apply and now have about 3500 hours PIC in turbojet aircraft. In would be willing to say that I will be competitive but hardly high time among the applicants.

Getting a job here and getting a job in Europe are completely different. Ask me how I know....... I've done both.

The companies here which are the desirable companies value experience very highly. In Europe it is common for pilots to get jobs flying Airbus and Boeings with just a few hundred hours. That is virtually unheard of here in the US. Companies like Southwest can be ultra selective and the applicants will all have an ATP and thousands of hours of airline experience as well as a minimum of 1000 as captain of a turbine powered aircraft. The only exceptions would be military pilots who will also have substantial experience.
smrtrthnu
 
flymia
Posts: 7127
Joined: Thu Jun 14, 2001 6:33 am

RE: WN Hiring Pilots

Sat Oct 08, 2011 9:36 pm

Quoting saab2000 (Reply 23):
The companies here which are the desirable companies value experience very highly. In Europe it is common for pilots to get jobs flying Airbus and Boeings with just a few hundred hours. That is virtually unheard of here in the US.

Unless they are flying a private 737 I cant see it ever happening. Even than, it better be dads 737 
Quoting N1120A (Reply 21):
PIC in the US means the person doing the actual flying. Generally an even split at the airlines, as the pilots rotate who is flying and who is working the radio.

PIC means the captain. It does not matter who does the flying.

Quoting SandroZRH (Reply 20):
Why are they asking for 1000hrs PIC Turbine? Are they expecting former/current captains to apply for first officer positions? If they did that over here, they probably wouldn't get a single application, or is there a different meaning to PIC time in the US than here that i don't know of?

Yea there is a big difference between gettings jobs in the US and Europe. Many of the people applying for a job like WN would be regional airline captains, smaller cargo airlines captains, military pilots. So yes former and current captains are exactly the people that are going to be applying. Very few people want to stay at the regional airlines they want to move up, fly bigger planes and make a lot more money. You do not find pilots getting their first jobs in 737's or A320s in the US like you do in Europe that never happens. Every pilot at a major airline would have been a captain with some other airline before and have thousands of hours.
"It was just four of us on the flight deck, trying to do our job" (Captain Al Haynes)
 
sandrozrh
Posts: 2419
Joined: Sun Feb 04, 2007 12:19 am

RE: WN Hiring Pilots

Sun Oct 09, 2011 2:30 am

Quoting N1120A (Reply 21):
Generally an even split at the airlines, as the pilots rotate who is flying and who is working the radio.

Yes, I'm very aware of that   But just doing half of the flying doesn't get me any PIC hours.

Quoting saab2000 (Reply 23):
PIC in the US means the pilot who signs for the airplane. In other words, the captain

So basically the same as it is here as I suspected.

Quoting flymia (Reply 24):
Yea there is a big difference between gettings jobs in the US and Europe.

Yes, I was aware of the different systems/philosophies and they both have their pros and cons.

Yet, I still have a hard time understanding why they're asking for PIC hours. Just as an example (I have no intention to brag or anything, don't get me wrong please): In two years from now I'll have over 3000 hours flying Airbus, including a substantial amount of longhaul/widebody/ETOPS/CRP time, I'll have current A330 and A340 ratings and a frozen A320 rating. Yet, an airline like say DL or UA won't hire me as an *F/O* because I don't have any real PIC time? I really don't see the sense in that. Or am I just totally missing the point here?
 
saab2000
Posts: 1232
Joined: Thu Jun 21, 2001 6:19 pm

RE: WN Hiring Pilots

Sun Oct 09, 2011 3:48 pm

Here they value PIC time. One of my old SR buddies couldn't get a job here because he had no PIC even though he had thousands of MD-11 hours.

In the US the only way into a bigger airplane is to work your way up. We have not had Ab Initio in the major airlines in decades here.

The mins at my so-called "regional" are 1000 total with 200 multi-engine. And that's lower mins than it was when I left Switzerland to work in the US. BTW, I hate that word..... Still wondering what's "regional" about flying in and out of the busiest airports in the world, but hey, that's another fight for another day. 

Just the way it is. It's why you see older wide body pilots in the US. Even the F/Os have tens of thousands of hours.

When I tell people of my experiences with LX and SR their jaws drop wide open. I'm approaching 10000 total time, virtually all of it airline time, and I'm not considered to be especially high time in the United States. Mid-pack..........

Your experiences with LX are amazing. Inconceivable here in the US. You have no idea how jealous I am..... 
smrtrthnu
 
User avatar
par13del
Posts: 10333
Joined: Sun Dec 18, 2005 9:14 pm

RE: WN Hiring Pilots

Sun Oct 09, 2011 4:05 pm

Quoting SandroZRH (Reply 25):
Yet, an airline like say DL or UA won't hire me as an *F/O* because I don't have any real PIC time? I really don't see the sense in that. Or am I just totally missing the point here?

WN is presently asking for PIC hours, DL and UA when they are hiring may not, requirements such as this are not mandatory by government regulations.
 
PGNCS
Posts: 2260
Joined: Sun Apr 15, 2007 5:07 am

RE: WN Hiring Pilots

Sun Oct 09, 2011 4:15 pm

Quoting SandroZRH (Reply 20):
Why are they asking for 1000hrs PIC Turbine?

They want proven leaders who have seen a variety of situations as the final operating authority of the aircraft. In other words they want captains (or military pilots with equivalent experience) who have been in charge and have not made the headlines in a spectacular fashion.

Quoting N1120A (Reply 21):
PIC in the US means the person doing the actual flying. Generally an even split at the airlines, as the pilots rotate who is flying and who is working the radio.

Sorry, no.

Quoting Flight152 (Reply 22):
That's not really correct. The PIC is the captain, regardless of who is doing the flying.

  

Quoting saab2000 (Reply 23):
PIC in the US means the pilot who signs for the airplane. In other words, the captain. Jobs at SWA are great jobs and are extremely competitive. I will apply and now have about 3500 hours PIC in turbojet aircraft. In would be willing to say that I will be competitive but hardly high time among the applicants.

Exactly, and well said. I expect you are correct that you will be competitive and somewhere in the middle experience-wise. Good luck!  
Quoting saab2000 (Reply 23):
Companies like Southwest can be ultra selective and the applicants will all have an ATP and thousands of hours of airline experience as well as a minimum of 1000 as captain of a turbine powered aircraft. The only exceptions would be military pilots who will also have substantial experience.

  

Quoting flymia (Reply 24):
Quoting N1120A (Reply 21):
PIC in the US means the person doing the actual flying. Generally an even split at the airlines, as the pilots rotate who is flying and who is working the radio.

PIC means the captain. It does not matter who does the flying.

  

Quoting flymia (Reply 24):
Many of the people applying for a job like WN would be regional airline captains, smaller cargo airlines captains, military pilots.

Exactly; current regional captains will likely be the single biggest group of qualified applicants.

Quoting flymia (Reply 24):
Every pilot at a major airline would have been a captain with some other airline before and have thousands of hours

Unless they were military, of course. They would still meet the PIC requirements, though obviously.

Quoting SandroZRH (Reply 25):
But just doing half of the flying doesn't get me any PIC hours.

   It gets you more SIC time.

Quoting SandroZRH (Reply 25):
Yet, I still have a hard time understanding why they're asking for PIC hours. Just as an example (I have no intention to brag or anything, don't get me wrong please): In two years from now I'll have over 3000 hours flying Airbus, including a substantial amount of longhaul/widebody/ETOPS/CRP time, I'll have current A330 and A340 ratings and a frozen A320 rating. Yet, an airline like say DL or UA won't hire me as an *F/O* because I don't have any real PIC time? I really don't see the sense in that. Or am I just totally missing the point here?

The point is that they want people who have been in command. Flying skills are not the only component of the job; they want leaders who have had to be the final decision maker. It's presumed to be a given and expected that with 3,000 of Airbus (or other jet) time that your flying proficiency is excellent. I have done a lot of international flying, and most of those hours droning are not that challenging (though they can be, of course.) Southwest (and other US airlines) want seasoned captains who have a history of getting along well with others and adhering to regulations and policies while completing the job safely. After a couple of thousand hours of SIC time, the value of more SIC hours quickly diminishes in the US.

Quoting saab2000 (Reply 26):
When I tell people of my experiences with LX and SR their jaws drop wide open. I'm approaching 10000 total time, virtually all of it airline time, and I'm not considered to be especially high time in the United States. Mid-pack..........

That's about right.
 
mcg
Posts: 1082
Joined: Tue Sep 16, 2003 11:49 am

RE: WN Hiring Pilots

Mon Oct 10, 2011 6:22 pm

Do pilot candidates do a sim session to validate flying skills? If they do, how does it work as I can't imagine many candidates are familiar with WN's specific procedures. How do they do a sim session without substantial training?
 
saab2000
Posts: 1232
Joined: Thu Jun 21, 2001 6:19 pm

RE: WN Hiring Pilots

Mon Oct 10, 2011 7:45 pm

Quoting mcg (Reply 29):
Do pilot candidates do a sim session to validate flying skills? If they do, how does it work as I can't imagine many candidates are familiar with WN's specific procedures. How do they do a sim session without substantial training?

As far as I'm aware, there is no sim for the interview. They assume that you know how to fly if you already have an ATP and meet their 1000 hour PIC requirement. It's my understanding that their training washout rate is very low.
smrtrthnu
 
User avatar
tb727
Posts: 2218
Joined: Thu Jun 30, 2005 1:40 pm

RE: WN Hiring Pilots

Mon Oct 10, 2011 9:38 pm

Quoting blueflyer (Reply 3):
Why do they want letters of recommendation? Is that their way of making sure they don't hire a lousy pilot who's been lucky enough not to get nailed in a simulator yet?

Quite common at a lot of companies, even if it isn't a requirement, it sure doesn't hurt to have internal references.

Quoting type-rated (Reply 8):

I've heard that in order to be hired by FedEx as pilot you better know several FedEx pilots very well. It's an established network.

I have also heard they have recently lessened the strictness of requirement, not 100% sure. Everyone I know that has put an app in there recently never heard anything back.

Quoting SandroZRH (Reply 20):
Why are they asking for 1000hrs PIC Turbine? Are they expecting former/current captains to apply for first officer positions? If they did that over here, they probably wouldn't get a single application, or is there a different meaning to PIC time in the US than here that i don't know of?

A guy flying tough part 135 jobs earned that 1000 Turbine PIC, not saying they all have, whereas some guy flying a Beechjet as a typed FO in a fractional environment probably hasn't, not saying they all haven't. Just my experience from being in the training department in my 135 life. I think that is what they are trying to "evaluate" when they look at an applicant.

Quoting PGNCS (Reply 28):
The point is that they want people who have been in command. Flying skills are not the only component of the job; they want leaders who have had to be the final decision maker. It's presumed to be a given and expected that with 3,000 of Airbus (or other jet) time that your flying proficiency is excellent. I have done a lot of international flying, and most of those hours droning are not that challenging (though they can be, of course.) Southwest (and other US airlines) want seasoned captains who have a history of getting along well with others and adhering to regulations and policies while completing the job safely. After a couple of thousand hours of SIC time, the value of more SIC hours quickly diminishes in the US.

   Most of the time in the US having both pilots type rated is for someone to advertise they have just that, 2 type-rated pilots up front and also it's becoming more of an insurance requirement, all probably safer but also an illusion of sorts. I personally think it "cheapens" having a type rating. In command is just that, they are the final decision maker.

Why 1000? I've thought about it, I think that's a good threshold number where a pilot has put in 1-2 years as a Captain therefore making it through all the seasons at least once. You've probably seen just about everything you would see in normal operations with enough abnormal stuff to get a good grip on being a Captain.
Too lazy to work, too scared to steal!
 
UAL Bagsmasher
Posts: 1839
Joined: Wed Sep 08, 1999 12:52 pm

RE: WN Hiring Pilots

Wed Oct 12, 2011 12:25 am

Quoting type-rated (Reply 8):
I've heard that in order to be hired by FedEx as pilot you better know several FedEx pilots very well. It's an established network.

The same holds true for getting in at FedEx as an A&P mechanic.
 
Type-Rated
Posts: 3901
Joined: Sun Sep 19, 1999 5:18 am

RE: WN Hiring Pilots

Wed Oct 12, 2011 1:30 am

Quoting flymia (Reply 24):
Many of the people applying for a job like WN would be regional airline captains, smaller cargo airlines captains, military pilots.

Or you could be a former astronaut or a world renowned aerobatics championship throphy holder. I know of at least one of these at WN.
Fly North Central Airlines..The route of the Northliners!
 
maxpower1954
Posts: 1067
Joined: Thu Sep 25, 2008 1:14 am

RE: WN Hiring Pilots

Wed Oct 12, 2011 5:36 am

Just as an example (and this was 25 years ago) - when I was hired by my present airline (a U.S. major) I was 31 years old with over 8,000 hours total time, 3,500 heavy jet F/O and F/E and just over 1,000 as a DC-8 captain. And I was far from the best qualified in my class.

It is very different in the U.S. than the rest of the world, due to the large General Aviation sector and the military services compared to most of the world. That may change with the decline of GA and the military increasing the use of drones. As the pool of very experienced people shrinks, you will see some type of ab initio training in the U.S. It did happen back in 1965 during the Vietnam War, when United reduced requirements to a Private Pilot certificate and four year college degree to enter an ab initio program. This only lasted about two years, IIRC.
 
Type-Rated
Posts: 3901
Joined: Sun Sep 19, 1999 5:18 am

RE: WN Hiring Pilots

Wed Oct 12, 2011 12:10 pm

Northwest had something similar in 1966. A guy hired on with NW with a commercial ticket only. NW paid for his instrument and then put him as a F/E on the Electra for a few years before moving him up to the 727. He wrote an article about his experience in Flying magazine, I'm thinking like around 1970-71.
Fly North Central Airlines..The route of the Northliners!
 
DashTrash
Posts: 1317
Joined: Mon Aug 21, 2006 8:44 am

RE: WN Hiring Pilots

Wed Oct 12, 2011 12:52 pm

Quoting tb727 (Reply 31):
whereas some guy flying a Beechjet as a typed FO in a fractional environment probably hasn't, not saying they all haven't. Just my experience from being in the training department in my 135 life. I think that is what they are trying to "evaluate" when they look at an applicant.

I would disagree with that statement. I've flown pretty much every type of fixed wing flying except military, seaplane, and bush flying. In terms of on the job challenge, the fractional flying I did is just behind single pilot night freight. Airline flying is WAY easier for many reasons. Fractional flying is very similar to other 135 jet flying from an operational and customer service standpoint. You spend plenty of time in unfamiliar / mountainous airports, things of that nature.
 
Mir
Posts: 19491
Joined: Mon Jan 05, 2004 3:55 am

RE: WN Hiring Pilots

Wed Oct 12, 2011 2:16 pm

Quoting flymia (Reply 24):
PIC means the captain. It does not matter who does the flying.

Depends on what sort of PIC you're talking about. The FAA allows one to log PIC when they're doing the flying, so long as they're qualified and rated in the airplane (which would mean having a type rating - not all FOs have this). So if a first officer has a type rating and is actually doing the flying, they could log PIC. But prospective employers are probably not going to give that time much credit, as they only really care about the time when you're actually in command.

-Mir
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
 
apodino
Posts: 3922
Joined: Mon Apr 04, 2005 2:11 am

RE: WN Hiring Pilots

Wed Oct 12, 2011 2:33 pm

Quoting saab2000 (Reply 30):
:

Quoting mcg (Reply 29):
Do pilot candidates do a sim session to validate flying skills? If they do, how does it work as I can't imagine many candidates are familiar with WN's specific procedures. How do they do a sim session without substantial training?

As far as I'm aware, there is no sim for the interview. They assume that you know how to fly if you already have an ATP and meet their 1000 hour PIC requirement. It's my understanding that their training washout rate is very low.

Not to mention that they require three letters from people who can attest to their flying skills. Even so, a sim check at airlines that do it isn't necessarily a procedures thing, its to make sure you can do basic flying like shoot an ILS to mins, fly an NDB approach, hold, and that type of stuff. They aren't testing you on procedures, they are just checking your stick and rudder skills.
 
DashTrash
Posts: 1317
Joined: Mon Aug 21, 2006 8:44 am

RE: WN Hiring Pilots

Wed Oct 12, 2011 5:29 pm

Quoting Mir (Reply 37):

That's true, but on most apps it's spelled out that PIC time may only be logged when you're the one who signed for the aircraft.
 
mcg
Posts: 1082
Joined: Tue Sep 16, 2003 11:49 am

RE: WN Hiring Pilots

Wed Oct 12, 2011 5:45 pm

Quoting apodino (Reply 38):
They aren't testing you on procedures, they are just checking your stick and rudder skills.

I'm curious as to how they do that. If you put a pilot in a WM 737 simulator without any training on WN procedures, how does he (or she) operate the sim in a way to demonstrate their skills? I suppose the first question would be "what's the name of the first checklist"? Please understand that I'm not a pilot and am simply curious.
 
sandrozrh
Posts: 2419
Joined: Sun Feb 04, 2007 12:19 am

RE: WN Hiring Pilots

Wed Oct 12, 2011 5:54 pm

Quoting mcg (Reply 40):

I'm curious as to how they do that. If you put a pilot in a WM 737 simulator without any training on WN procedures, how does he (or she) operate the sim in a way to demonstrate their skills? I suppose the first question would be "what's the name of the first checklist"? Please understand that I'm not a pilot and am simply curious.

I've been wondering the same. ie BA test their applicants in a 747 simulator. How does that make any sense if they are hiring new applicants onto the A320 fleet, especially when some of the applicants already have Airbus hours under their belts? Why not test them on an actual aircraft that they are familiar with and that they are going to fly for the airline anyway? It would benefit both parties.
 
DashTrash
Posts: 1317
Joined: Mon Aug 21, 2006 8:44 am

RE: WN Hiring Pilots

Wed Oct 12, 2011 6:15 pm

Quoting mcg (Reply 40):
Quoting SandroZRH (Reply 41):

Airline interview sim rides are there so the instructor can observe your basic instrument skills. You usually takeoff, climb to a specific altitude, level off and do a steep turn or two. You may then track a VOR radial, then enter a hold. After that it's usually an ILS down close to minimums with a little crosswind. Some rides want to see CRM, and with those you usually find out who you're paired with before you get to the sim. You meet in the bar the night before and work up callouts for the ride the next day.

The sim instructors know you're unfamiliar with the company procedures, and most likely the sim. They are looking for continual improvement through the ride. Better altitude, heading, and airspeed control as the ride progresses.
 
Type-Rated
Posts: 3901
Joined: Sun Sep 19, 1999 5:18 am

RE: WN Hiring Pilots

Wed Oct 12, 2011 6:35 pm

A friend of mine was hired by a major airline in the late 80's and was given a sim test prior to hiring. He said it was not easy by any means. They gave him an ILS, Localizer approch, VOR approach and even an NDB approach. All of these approaches involved different kinds of weather from low level fog to T-Storms in the area. Then he had to do a diversion due to weather (his call). The last approach was a VOR approach in fog with an engine failure about 2 miles out.

Fortunately he was a high time military pilot with years of B-52 flying so he didn't have much trouble with it.

I don't think that most pilot applicants at WN will have problems with the sim check as one of their requirements is to have a 737 type rating or get one within so many months of hiring.
Fly North Central Airlines..The route of the Northliners!
 
saab2000
Posts: 1232
Joined: Thu Jun 21, 2001 6:19 pm

RE: WN Hiring Pilots

Wed Oct 12, 2011 6:58 pm

Emirates does (or did) a simulator evaluation. I have talked with many who have done it and their protocol is for you to fly it like you'd fly your current airplane and make the callouts you'd make for your current airplane. The non-flying pilot will adjust accordingly. What they're looking for is not perfection but a basic understanding of pitch, power, single-engine flying and some basic IFR skills, like flying an ILS.

They're not looking for perfect knowledge of the 777 at Emirates because they know that most of their applicants have not flown it. They're looking for a knowledge of things which apply to all airplanes.

Past simulator evaluations I have done have been simple and are looking for basic flying IFR and M/E skills.
smrtrthnu
 
Mir
Posts: 19491
Joined: Mon Jan 05, 2004 3:55 am

RE: WN Hiring Pilots

Wed Oct 12, 2011 9:09 pm

Quoting DashTrash (Reply 39):
That's true, but on most apps it's spelled out that PIC time may only be logged when you're the one who signed for the aircraft.

Which I noted in my post. My point was only that it's not true that PIC, from a legal standpoint, is only the time spent in command of the airplane - there are several other ways to get it. It's my opinion that one should decide how to log their time based on the regulations, and if airlines want you to report your time using different standards on an application, so be it.

-Mir
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos