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skinny
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Cooking Oil Jet Takes Of From BHX

Thu Oct 06, 2011 8:38 pm

An historic day for UK aviation in the Midlands. For the first time in Britain, a fully-loaded commercial airliner has taken off - powered by biofuel. The Boeing 757-200 flew to Lanzarote from Birmingham with 232 passengers on board. The aircraft was fuelled by recycled cooking oil

Nice video

http://www.itv.com/central-west/
 
canoecarrier
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RE: Cooking Oil Jet Takes Of From BHX

Thu Oct 06, 2011 9:08 pm

Quoting skinny (Thread starter):
An historic day for UK aviation in the Midlands. For the first time in Britain, a fully-loaded commercial airliner has taken off - powered by biofuel. The Boeing 757-200 flew to Lanzarote from Birmingham with 232 passengers on board. The aircraft was fuelled by recycled cooking oil

Don't take this wrong, in some cases biofuel can be a great thing to use. Some people can power their whole house or even run all their vehicles off of cooking oil they get at a low cost. That said, the maximum fuel capacity of a 752 is 43,490 liters. It would take one person their whole life to generate that amount to be recycled into biofuel.

For comparison, a 744 burns around 12,788 liters (3,378 US gallons) of fuel per hour. Not to turn this into a non-av conversation but there's a significant downside to using biofuel to power aircraft. At some point you have to decide whether or not to use grains and vegetables you can eat as a food source or use them as a power source.
The beatings will continue until morale improves
 
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Aquila3
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RE: Cooking Oil Jet Takes Of From BHX

Thu Oct 06, 2011 9:25 pm

Technically it is not surprising. Biofuel, even if originated from vegetable oils (recycled or new) is a refined product that has characteristics equal or superior to standard mineral diesel fuel. I am not chemist but the main refination process used should be esterification normally done "washing" the oil with methyl alcohol in order to extract the paraffins. Somebody competent might correct me.
But the news is more in the politics, if it really exists the wish to do so, for the problems appointed from the previous poster. It might be that the Aviation industry, due to its very peculiar needs (energy must be stored in a lightweight form) will be the last to abandon diesel fuel, of whatever origin it comes.
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canoecarrier
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RE: Cooking Oil Jet Takes Of From BHX

Thu Oct 06, 2011 9:53 pm

Quoting Aquila3 (Reply 2):
It might be that the Aviation industry, due to its very peculiar needs (energy must be stored in a lightweight form) will be the last to abandon diesel fuel, of whatever origin it comes.

Currently, it's easier to replace 100LL than Jet A with biofuel. Assuming you can use aviation grade (aka 85-AGE) ethanol in your airplane. The Department of Defense has investigated JP-8 alternatives with biofuel, but current commercial processes yield a fuel that is still not suitable for military applications.

I think the future lies in using a combination of biofuels from wood waste to algae to supplement our current fossil fuel demand, but I'm not sure we'll ever completely move away from pulling oil out of the earth to make Jet-A. That is until we develop engines that run on something that's not oil derived.
The beatings will continue until morale improves
 
tinosky
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RE: Cooking Oil Jet Takes Of From BHX

Thu Oct 06, 2011 10:28 pm

Do I smell french fries?  

Kidding aside, very nice to see!

Cheers,
 
LGWflyer
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RE: Cooking Oil Jet Takes Of From BHX

Thu Oct 06, 2011 10:40 pm

Quoting Tinosky (Reply 4):
Do I smell french fries?

Haha!  

Nice one Thomson, good to see. Btw don't yah just love the look of a TOM 757 with winglets! Thanks for posting the link to the video, interesting watch.
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cmf
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RE: Cooking Oil Jet Takes Of From BHX

Thu Oct 06, 2011 11:11 pm

Quoting canoecarrier (Reply 1):
For comparison, a 744 burns around 12,788 liters (3,378 US gallons) of fuel per hour. Not to turn this into a non-av conversation but there's a significant downside to using biofuel to power aircraft. At some point you have to decide whether or not to use grains and vegetables you can eat as a food source or use them as a power source.


One of my golf buddies is involved with a bio fuel project where they use a berry from a tree that is poisonous to humans and grown in areas unsuitable for growing food crop for that very reason. Sure they will only be able to produce a small drop in the ocean of oil but they also only have a very small amount of land at this time. They do have significant more land identified and best of all, unlike pumping oil, it regenerates yearly, or was that twice a year? They also claim to have higher yield than from using food crop.

Bio fuel does not necessarily mean loss of food.

Knowing several people will object on principle it is also worth noting that if we really worried about amount of food produced we would replace most of the animal crop with crop for human consumption as that feeds much more people per unit used.
Don’t repeat earlier generations mistakes. Learn history for a better future.
 
lewis
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RE: Cooking Oil Jet Takes Of From BHX

Thu Oct 06, 2011 11:30 pm

Quoting cmf (Reply 6):

It is also a matter of how much energy you put into producing the bio-fuel compared to how much you get in return. I was reading that for now, only algae can have a good ratio at that because it just needs to sit in some water and its processing is not very complicated or energy-demanding. It also produces lots of O2 in the process.
 
Fly2HMO
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RE: Cooking Oil Jet Takes Of From BHX

Thu Oct 06, 2011 11:38 pm

Quoting lewis (Reply 7):

It is also a matter of how much energy you put into producing the bio-fuel compared to how much you get in return. I was reading that for now, only algae can have a good ratio at that because it just needs to sit in some water and its processing is not very complicated or energy-demanding. It also produces lots of O2 in the process.

Algae is the way to go until something better comes along.

The answer to all our energy problems will come when we find a, cheap, easy way to easily take away the H from the O in water. Every method used to date consumes more energy to do that than what is produced.
 
canoecarrier
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RE: Cooking Oil Jet Takes Of From BHX

Thu Oct 06, 2011 11:39 pm

Quoting cmf (Reply 6):
One of my golf buddies is involved with a bio fuel project where they use a berry from a tree that is poisonous to humans and grown in areas unsuitable for growing food crop for that very reason.

Eastern red cedar?

Quoting cmf (Reply 6):
They do have significant more land identified and best of all, unlike pumping oil, it regenerates yearly, or was that twice a year? They also claim to have higher yield than from using food crop.

Again, sorry for steering this away from the original topic, but on a per/acre yield basis, choosing land that is unsuitable for other crops to generate biofuel doesn't result in a high yield of crops that produce biofuel. They are low producing fields for a reason. You're right in saying that basically 100% of biofuel generation doesn't result in a loss of food, but a significant portion of it does. Just look at Ethanol production and the effect it has on grain prices.

Ok, trying to steer this back on topic. Flying vs. driving generally means your producing around 1.5 x more carbon emissions/person. So, inherently flying is "less" green than driving assuming your in a car that gets around 30 miles/gal. There are relatively few ways to make flying green. It's either using biofuel, which affects food prices, or new engine technology.
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Revo1059
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RE: Cooking Oil Jet Takes Of From BHX

Fri Oct 07, 2011 5:24 pm

Quote:
That is until we develop engines that run on something that's not oil derived.

They need to step up work on dilithium crystals!   
 
r2rho
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RE: Cooking Oil Jet Takes Of From BHX

Fri Oct 07, 2011 6:44 pm

Quoting cmf (Reply 6):
One of my golf buddies is involved with a bio fuel project where they use a berry from a tree that is poisonous to humans and grown in areas unsuitable for growing food crop for that very reason

Probably camelina or jatropha, I'm guessing.

Quoting cmf (Reply 6):
Bio fuel does not necessarily mean loss of food.

Correct for 2nd generation biofuels such as camelina, jatropha, algae, etc that aviation is trying to promote. And incorrect for current biofuels sold for cars which basically take food away from others to fuel our automobiles. What aviation is trying to do with 2nd generation biofuels is the right way to go, alas governments are still heavily subsidizing 1st generation biofuels that compete with crops...

Quoting lewis (Reply 7):

It is also a matter of how much energy you put into producing the bio-fuel compared to how much you get in return

For example, biofuel produced from corn as is done in the US is probably the worst thinkable application of biofuels, it is a very energy inefficient process. Sugar cane fares somewhat better but is still far from ideal. 2nd generation feedstocks have much better efficiency ratios.
 
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JohnKrist
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RE: Cooking Oil Jet Takes Of From BHX

Fri Oct 07, 2011 8:57 pm

Quoting canoecarrier (Reply 1):
At some point you have to decide whether or not to use grains and vegetables you can eat as a food source or use them as a power source.
Quoting canoecarrier (Reply 9):
It's either using biofuel, which affects food prices, or new engine technology.

Historically food has been destroyed in order to keep up the price on the market. For some reason that has been kind of OK as the market is what gives growth to a country. Using the over production for biofuel instead of just dumping/burning it seems like a excellent idea compared to how it was before. But when you use fertile soil to produce fuel we all of a sudden get into some BS, economically, and morally. Some say that producing fuel from food crop is immoral when people are starving in the world. Still, all that the 3rd world countries get is some rice and food proteins. And even when the over production of the 70's were at it's peak, and 10s of thousands of tons of dairy products, meat and grain were destroyed, people in Biafra starved to death. If you knew how much food that is thrown out, just because the expiry date is getting close, or that an apple only looks 98% perfect. My guess is that 25% of all food produced is thrown in the trash before even getting into a grocery bag. Produce less "dedicated" food, and produce bio fuel instead!

On a positive note, researchers are getting close to creating sugar beat and potatoes that produce food oil instead of carbohydrates. Sugar beat is the crop that gives most tons of produce from an acre, and getting oil from it instead from sunflower or rape seeds will multiply the amounts that can be harvested.

Other than that I have good faith in algae, and in the Baltic sea algae is a huge environmental problem that suffocates the ocean, creating pockets that are void of oxygen. Harvesting algae there will give positive effects both the ecological travel, and reduces the problems we see there today.
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cmf
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RE: Cooking Oil Jet Takes Of From BHX

Fri Oct 07, 2011 9:11 pm

Quoting r2rho (Reply 11):
Probably camelina or jatropha, I'm guessing.

Jatropha. Good call.

Quoting lewis (Reply 7):
It is also a matter of how much energy you put into producing the bio-fuel compared to how much you get in return

Indirectly yes but the real issue is if you can produce at a competitive price. I agree that energy put in is a big part in that but the difference is important.

Also, production of oil doesn't set the efficiency bar that high.
Don’t repeat earlier generations mistakes. Learn history for a better future.
 
gkirk
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RE: Cooking Oil Jet Takes Of From BHX

Fri Oct 07, 2011 10:18 pm

232 on a 752? Not a full load, IIRC, TOM 752s carry 235  
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fiscal
Posts: 285
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RE: Cooking Oil Jet Takes Of From BHX

Sat Oct 08, 2011 12:08 am

Quoting Revo1059 (Reply 10):
They need to step up work on dilithium crystals!

And the airframes from transparent aluminum ? (ST IV)

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