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murchmo
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Hawaii Bound Cessna May Run Out Of Fuel

Sat Oct 08, 2011 2:39 am

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RE: Hawaii Bound Cessna May Run Out Of Fuel

Sat Oct 08, 2011 2:57 am

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flySFO
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RE: Hawaii Bound Cessna May Run Out Of Fuel

Sat Oct 08, 2011 3:09 am

FlightAware now says arrival "unknown." Any updates? Also, how fast does a Cessna travel? The article says he was 400 nm away from Hawaii when he alerted authorities, how much flight time is that?
 
safetyDemo
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RE: Hawaii Bound Cessna May Run Out Of Fuel

Sat Oct 08, 2011 3:18 am

What could possible motivate someone to fly from MRY to ITO in a Cessna? The FlightAware history makes it appear he tried it just two days ago and diverted back to CA. I'd be curious to see what preparations he took to ensure a safe journey such as extra fuel reserves/tanks, etc. Without those, doesn't this sound a bit insane? I hope he reimburses the rescue effort costs.

Also curious to see where he ended up and how his rescue went. Best of luck putting the thing down in the ocean.
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BMI727
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RE: Hawaii Bound Cessna May Run Out Of Fuel

Sat Oct 08, 2011 3:23 am

Quoting safetyDemo (Reply 4):
What could possible motivate someone to fly from MRY to ITO in a Cessna?

The need to get the plane to Hawaii. There are plenty of shorter range planes that have to be ferried places they can't reach normally.

Quoting safetyDemo (Reply 4):
I'd be curious to see what preparations he took to ensure a safe journey such as extra fuel reserves/tanks, etc.

Probably quite a bit. Such a flight takes a lot of preparation. It's possible there was a mistake, but it's also possible that he ran into issues such as very unfavorable winds or icing.
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larshjort
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RE: Hawaii Bound Cessna May Run Out Of Fuel

Sat Oct 08, 2011 3:29 am

4 hours in 172, 1-1

Quoting flySFO (Reply 3):
FlightAware now says arrival "unknown." Any updates? Also, how fast does a Cessna travel? The article says he was 400 nm away from Hawaii when he alerted authorities, how much flight time is that?

Zooming in on the flighpath shows he "landed" ~10 miles from the airport

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N62NA
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RE: Hawaii Bound Cessna May Run Out Of Fuel

Sat Oct 08, 2011 3:41 am

The last paragraph of the article mentions airliners.net  
 
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RE: Hawaii Bound Cessna May Run Out Of Fuel

Sat Oct 08, 2011 3:58 am

My posts/replies are strictly my opinion and not that of any company, organization, or Southwest Airlines.
 
WestWing
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RE: Hawaii Bound Cessna May Run Out Of Fuel

Sat Oct 08, 2011 4:13 am

FlightAware says; Route planned: 2,326 miles, flown: 2,908 miles. But the actual path as shown by the bright green plotted line does not show a big variation from the dashed line ? I hope they rescued the pilot.
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jetfuel
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RE: Hawaii Bound Cessna May Run Out Of Fuel

Sat Oct 08, 2011 4:25 am

Not an uncommon event. I brand new Piper I ordered ditched after engine issues a bit further of Hilo. Hope this guy is ok. Gear up in a 310 in calm water should be survivable provided he doesnt hit his head landing and then rescue himself. Heres praying for him
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gothamspotter
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RE: Hawaii Bound Cessna May Run Out Of Fuel

Sat Oct 08, 2011 4:31 am

 
26point2
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RE: Hawaii Bound Cessna May Run Out Of Fuel

Sat Oct 08, 2011 4:34 am

Current winds forecast for FL180. Looks pretty favorable and nothing out of the ordinary.

 
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Aloha717200
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RE: Hawaii Bound Cessna May Run Out Of Fuel

Sat Oct 08, 2011 4:36 am

Probably a mathematical error. A very costly one.

It's good that they went to such lengths to help the guy down and then rescue him. I admit to also being excited to see that they mentioned airliners.net in the article. Looks like we've become a reliable source. (Is that a good or bad thing I wonder?)   
 
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jetfuel
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RE: Hawaii Bound Cessna May Run Out Of Fuel

Sat Oct 08, 2011 5:08 am

Well done to everybody concerned
Where's the passion gone out of the airline industry? The smell of jetfuel and the romance of taking a flight....
 
LONGisland89
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RE: Hawaii Bound Cessna May Run Out Of Fuel

Sat Oct 08, 2011 6:38 am

I feel bad for the guy. So close...almost made it. 13 miles  
 
je89_w
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RE: Hawaii Bound Cessna May Run Out Of Fuel

Sat Oct 08, 2011 7:02 am

Ditching is always a scary thought, but glad everything turned out ok except for the loss of the aircraft of course. Looks like a flight to Hawaii was attempted on the 5th but they returned to OAK.
 
ltbewr
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RE: Hawaii Bound Cessna May Run Out Of Fuel

Sat Oct 08, 2011 8:09 am

If you do a search here and on the Internet in general, you can find several stories about the ferrying of aircraft across the Pacific, including where they didn't make it due to mechanical failures. There is an expert ferry pilot from Australia who had to ditch twice on the way to the USA mainland-Hawaii segment due to engine failures on small GA aircraft. Interesting stores.
 
HAL
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RE: Hawaii Bound Cessna May Run Out Of Fuel

Sat Oct 08, 2011 9:18 am

I was flying back to SEA from HNL this evening, and listened to a lot of the drama as it unfolded. He was a professional ferry pilot (I think), and ran into stronger headwinds than expected. He sounded very calm while several other aircraft relayed his messages to Honolulu ATC and the Coast Guard helo enroute to him. At first he said his calculations showed him running out of fuel 60 miles short of ITO. Then he revised it to 30 miles, then 18. We were all rooting for him to make it when we moved out of radio range. Later someone relayed that he'd made it to ITO, so this thread is the first I heard that he had to ditch.

Sometimes, these things happen. On a 12+ hour flight, even little things like being slightly out of trim can add to the drag, and consequently the fuel burn. It's too bad, because I looked up the plane, and it was a really beautiful Cessna 310. As someone whose career is centered around flying across the ocean, I understand the risks he took, and the reasons he did. Congratulations to him on a successful ditching.

HAL
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jetfuel
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RE: Hawaii Bound Cessna May Run Out Of Fuel

Sat Oct 08, 2011 10:03 am

Flight Planned Flight time was 10 hours 57 minutes, so just shows you how a slight change in wind, drag or fuel burn can impact on range. Was enroute to Australia



VIDEO HERE
http://www.hawaiinewsnow.com/story/1...-crews-ready-for-emergency-landing


[Edited 2011-10-08 03:05:52]
Where's the passion gone out of the airline industry? The smell of jetfuel and the romance of taking a flight....
 
ltbewr
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RE: Hawaii Bound Cessna May Run Out Of Fuel

Sat Oct 08, 2011 11:54 am

Quoting jetfuel (Reply 18):
Flight Planned Flight time was 10 hours 57 minutes, so just shows you how a slight change in wind, drag or fuel burn can impact on range. Was enroute to Australia

VIDEO HERE
http://www.hawaiinewsnow.com/story/1...nding

That post link includes video of the actual crash and parts of the rescue. Sure was lucky the sea was relatively calm, and was rescued so soon.
 
safetyDemo
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RE: Hawaii Bound Cessna May Run Out Of Fuel

Sat Oct 08, 2011 2:02 pm

Quoting HAL (Reply 17):
He was a professional ferry pilot (I think), and ran into stronger headwinds than expected.

Glad to hear this guy was actually a professional with a purpose. The article (in its original form which I read) and tone of the original post made it sound like some dude just hopped in his Cessna and pointed it out over the water because he could. Either way - not something I'd ever be interested in doing, so good to know someone else is up for the challenge.

How common are these small planes ditched en route on ferry flights? Someone listed a few stories above but I wonder if there is an actual statistic somewhere. And if you're the new owner of the airplane, what happens? Does insurance typically cover something like this? Who is responsible at that point?
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boacvc10
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RE: Hawaii Bound Cessna May Run Out Of Fuel

Sat Oct 08, 2011 2:04 pm

Quoting ltbewr (Reply 19):
Sure was lucky the sea was relatively calm, and was rescued so soon.

Now that the pilot is okay, what would the fate of the plane be? Any chance of recovery at all? Would there have been insurance cover for this ferry flight?
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flightsimer
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RE: Hawaii Bound Cessna May Run Out Of Fuel

Sat Oct 08, 2011 2:06 pm

That video was awesome! He did an amazing job landing it in the calm seas.
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flyingbronco05
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RE: Hawaii Bound Cessna May Run Out Of Fuel

Sat Oct 08, 2011 2:19 pm

Seems to be odd he was out of fuel yet both engines were still running when he ditched. Also, would it be common to have the exterior lights still on during ditch?

http://cgvi.uscg.mil/media/main.php?g2_itemId=1427564
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United_fan
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RE: Hawaii Bound Cessna May Run Out Of Fuel

Sat Oct 08, 2011 2:33 pm

11 hours in a Cessna with no restroom? No way to stretch? No thanks.
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bristolflyer
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RE: Hawaii Bound Cessna May Run Out Of Fuel

Sat Oct 08, 2011 2:44 pm

Quoting flyingbronco05 (Reply 23):
Seems to be odd he was out of fuel yet both engines were still running when he ditched.

The props were turning probably due to the wind going over them (think it might be called windmilling?)
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Charlienoble
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RE: Hawaii Bound Cessna May Run Out Of Fuel

Sat Oct 08, 2011 2:57 pm

I have a different view of this event - to me this flight was completely irresponsible.

Maybe the pilot's calculations showed enough fuel to make the trip on two engines, but he had no chance at all of making it to an airport on one engine for most of that flight! He deliberately put himself and his rescuers at risk "hoping" not to have an engine failure enroute. That is piss poor airmanship I think.

He ditched relatively close to his destination and the conditions for a rescue were good...but what if he'd ditched much farther from shore in marginal conditions?

The Coast Guard is ready and willing to do everything to help because they are true professionals, but I think people abuse that professionalism all the time. What if the helicopter coming to rescue him had crashed? What would we tell the husbands/wives/kids of the crew? Daddy's dead because the owner of this aircraft is a cheapass who deliberately pursued a course of action that left no alternatives in case of a relatively common in-flight emergency (piston engine failure).

If you don't have enough money to have your aircraft disassembled and transported to its destination safely then you don't have enough money for that aircraft.
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Fly2HMO
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RE: Hawaii Bound Cessna May Run Out Of Fuel

Sat Oct 08, 2011 3:16 pm

Quoting safetyDemo (Reply 20):

Glad to hear this guy was actually a professional with a purpose. The article (in its original form which I read) and tone of the original post made it sound like some dude just hopped in his Cessna and pointed it out over the water because he could.

We are still assuming he is a ferry pilot. I'm pretty sure he is as flying such a distance requires tons of special planning, not to mention a big pair of spheres. These type of flights are not to be taken lightly.

Quoting CharlieNoble (Reply 26):
but he had no chance at all of making it to an airport on one engine for most of that flight!

And just where did you get that silly idea? I see no mention of him flying on one engine.

Quoting CharlieNoble (Reply 26):
I have a different view of this event - to me this flight was completely irresponsible.

Oh please. I suggest you read up on the techniques for ferrying airplanes. It's not something to be taken lightly and everybody that does it is extremely careful about it.NOBODY just grabs a plane and flies it across the ocean just for shits and giggles. I have a good friend that does this for a living. He plans months in advance for all his flights. It's much more work than just flying your average 777 across the pond.

Way to blow stuff out of proportion by the way  
Quoting boacvc10 (Reply 21):
Would there have been insurance cover for this ferry flight?

Surely.

Quoting flyingbronco05 (Reply 23):
Seems to be odd he was out of fuel yet both engines were still running when he ditched.

The props were windmilling.

Quoting flyingbronco05 (Reply 23):
Also, would it be common to have the exterior lights still on during ditch?

He either a) forgot to turn of the master switch (something you do in almost EVERY emergency landing checklist) or b) just left it on to be more easily seen.Even if it was a) the chances of having a fire are nil without fuel and the fact that it was ditching to begin with, so it would have been a non-issue anyways. But as they said he sounded calm and cool-headed so I'm pretty sure he did everything he had to do, he had plenty of time to prepare.

[Edited 2011-10-08 08:20:49]

[Edited 2011-10-08 08:21:23]
 
Goldenshield
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RE: Hawaii Bound Cessna May Run Out Of Fuel

Sat Oct 08, 2011 3:21 pm

Quoting safetyDemo (Reply 20):
Glad to hear this guy was actually a professional with a purpose. The article (in its original form which I read) and tone of the original post made it sound like some dude just hopped in his Cessna and pointed it out over the water because he could.

Even if he wasn't that experienced, you gotta start sometime. Given how much space in the cabin is dedicated to fuel, the first time one makes one of these ocean-crossing repositioning flights, they are solo.
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Charlienoble
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RE: Hawaii Bound Cessna May Run Out Of Fuel

Sat Oct 08, 2011 4:33 pm

Quoting Fly2HMO (Reply 27):
Quoting CharlieNoble (Reply 26):
but he had no chance at all of making it to an airport on one engine for most of that flight!

And just where did you get that silly idea? I see no mention of him flying on one engine.

I think you missed my point.

A twin's range is drastically reduced when flying on one engine...because of that, OVER MOST OF HIS ROUTE he had no options for a safe landing if he'd lost an engine.

He should have landed in Hawaii with enough fuel onboard to have flown from the 'single engine point of no return' to Hawaii with one of his propellers feathered. His plan obviously relied on both engines turning the whole time, which tells me he should never have taken off in the first place. Piston engines fail all the time. You can't prevent that so you have to plan for it. This pilot did not.

Maybe ferry pilots "do it all the time" but that doesn't mean it's not stupid. And the only reason why they get away with it is because their rich Uncle Sam is standing by to bail their asses out. And we wonder why people bag on General Aviation.

And as far as accusing me of blowing things out of proportion...please answer my question: what would you say - microphone in your face on the 6:00 news - if a rescue helicopter crew had been lost going to rescue you (or the pilot you had hired to ferry your plane) due to a completely avoidable emergency?

[Edited 2011-10-08 09:50:23]
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26point2
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RE: Hawaii Bound Cessna May Run Out Of Fuel

Sat Oct 08, 2011 4:49 pm

Quoting CharlieNoble (Reply 29):
He should have landed in Hawaii with enough fuel onboard to have flown from the 'single engine point of no return'

This is known as a "Wet Footprint"... when an engine failure, or other system failure, at the equal time point will result in a ditching.

Remember though, single engined a/c make this flight fairly regularly and many more cross the N. Atlantic safely. I guess the Wet Footprint starts once beyond gliding distance to shore for those guys. Unsafe? Poor judgement? Getting the job done? Not sure.
 
N1120A
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RE: Hawaii Bound Cessna May Run Out Of Fuel

Sat Oct 08, 2011 4:52 pm

Quoting je89_w (Reply 15):
Looks like a flight to Hawaii was attempted on the 5th but they returned to OAK.

Makes sense. MRY is much more suitable to this kind of flight. Less crowded air space, runway pointed in a more appropriate direction, etc.

Quoting CharlieNoble (Reply 26):

I have a different view of this event - to me this flight was completely irresponsible.

You are wrong. This person is a professional and the flight was very responsible. I'm sure he's flown countless flights without incident.

Quoting CharlieNoble (Reply 26):
If you don't have enough money to have your aircraft disassembled and transported to its destination safely then you don't have enough money for that aircraft.

Uh, so that means people in Australia shouldn't be able to own small airplanes, or should have to pay a much higher premium for them? Africans? Or that American industry should suffer?
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Charlienoble
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RE: Hawaii Bound Cessna May Run Out Of Fuel

Sat Oct 08, 2011 4:57 pm

Quoting 26point2 (Reply 30):
Quoting CharlieNoble (Reply 29):
He should have landed in Hawaii with enough fuel onboard to have flown from the 'single engine point of no return'

This is known as a "Wet Footprint"... when an engine failure, or other system failure, at the equal time point will result in a ditching.

Remember though, single engined a/c make this flight fairly regularly and many more cross the N. Atlantic safely. I guess the Wet Footprint starts once beyond gliding distance to shore for those guys. Unsafe? Poor judgement? Getting the job done? Not sure.

I'd have no problem with people doing this AT THEIR OWN RISK.

But unfortunately there's no such thing as "at your own risk" any more. Everybody wants to be free to make bad decisions but not have to suffer the consequences. When people intentionally set up the potential for avoidable emergencies - for their own financial savings - then I think it's the wrong thing to do.

Maintaining at-sea rescue capability costs a lot of tax dollars, and rescue crews risk their lives every time they go out.
"When I get sad, I stop being sad and be awesome instead. True Story."- Barney Stinson
 
shamrock137
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RE: Hawaii Bound Cessna May Run Out Of Fuel

Sat Oct 08, 2011 5:05 pm

Quoting CharlieNoble (Reply 29):
He should have landed in Hawaii with enough fuel onboard to have flown from the 'single engine point of no return' to Hawaii with one of his propellers feathered.

From what I understand some of these ferry flights get permits which allow exemption from many of these rules and allow for things such additional fuel tanks to be installed in the passenger cabin, and other modifications such as long range HF radios to be installed. A company i am familiar with is planning to fly a number of Cessna 402's to Guam via Hawaii, well beyond the normal range of the aircraft, however special modifications allow for these types of flights to happen relatively often.
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Charlienoble
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RE: Hawaii Bound Cessna May Run Out Of Fuel

Sat Oct 08, 2011 5:16 pm

Quoting N1120A (Reply 31):
You are wrong.

Wow. Can't argue with that I guess.

Quoting N1120A (Reply 31):
I'm sure he's flown countless flights without incident.

And piston engines generally fun flawlessly for the duration of a flight. Except when they don't.

Quoting N1120A (Reply 31):

Quoting CharlieNoble (Reply 26):
If you don't have enough money to have your aircraft disassembled and transported to its destination safely then you don't have enough money for that aircraft.

Uh, so that means people in Australia shouldn't be able to own small airplanes, or should have to pay a much higher premium for them? Africans? Or that American industry should suffer?

See my previous posts...what is your answer when a helicopter crashes trying to rescue the pilot from an emergency that was avoidable IN THE PLANNING STAGE? If your answer is "I regret the loss of a multi-million dollar aircraft and its crew, but in the interest of supporting the US light aircraft industry, and enabling Australians and Africans to enjoy general aviation at a reasonable cost, I believe it was worth it." then we'll have to agree to disagree.

I am coming at this from the perspective of being the one who has had to go out to rescue people from their own poor planning (in boats, but the concept is the same). Not sure what the equivalent in employment law would be but perhaps representing someone who took certain avoidable actions to make your job of representing them much more difficult than necessary while also exposing you to legal / disbarment consequences. I'm reaching here but trying to help you see why I would view the risk this way.

[Edited 2011-10-08 10:56:37]
"When I get sad, I stop being sad and be awesome instead. True Story."- Barney Stinson
 
canoecarrier
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RE: Hawaii Bound Cessna May Run Out Of Fuel

Sat Oct 08, 2011 5:30 pm

Quoting Shamrock137 (Reply 33):

From what I understand some of these ferry flights get permits which allow exemption from many of these rules and allow for things such additional fuel tanks to be installed in the passenger cabin, and other modifications such as long range HF radios to be installed.

Given some of the comments here, I guess people think HA got their 717s to Hawaii by barge.


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Glad the pilot is ok. I don't know enough about the company who did the ferry flight, so for now I'll withhold judgement and just say it's the cost of doing business that this sometimes happens. Some companies have better reputations than others. Otherwise aircraft ownership would be much more expensive for large parts of the world since they don't have domestic aircraft production.
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Charlienoble
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RE: Hawaii Bound Cessna May Run Out Of Fuel

Sat Oct 08, 2011 5:41 pm

Quoting canoecarrier (Reply 35):
Given some of the comments here, I guess people think HA got their 717s to Hawaii by barge.

If that was directed at me...not really.

My issue here was in planning a flight whose safety relies entirely on having both of a general aviation PISTON twin's engines running flawlessly for 10+ hours. And sharing that risk with US taxpayers and rescue crews.

A commercially operated, TURBINE aircraft ferry flight is several orders of magnitude less likely to have an engine problem enroute...apples and oranges in terms of risk in my opinion. Even so my guess is that those ferry flights were required to plan be able to land somewhere safely on one engine (hence the extra fuel tanks).

Anyway, I've said my peace. Agree or disagree as you see fit.

[Edited 2011-10-08 10:50:25]
"When I get sad, I stop being sad and be awesome instead. True Story."- Barney Stinson
 
Goldenshield
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RE: Hawaii Bound Cessna May Run Out Of Fuel

Sat Oct 08, 2011 5:52 pm

Quoting CharlieNoble (Reply 36):
A commercially operated, TURBINE aircraft ferry flight is several orders of magnitude less likely to have an engine problem enroute...apples and oranges in terms of risk in my opinion. Even so my guess is that those ferry flights were required to be able to land somewhere safely on one engine (hence the extra fuel tanks).

Not only that, but on these birds bound for Hawaii, even though they are part 91 ferry flights, they would be planned and operated as though they are part 121 (sans ETOPS, but they would most likely run a psuedo version of that) due to its more stringent operational requirements.
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Fly2HMO
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RE: Hawaii Bound Cessna May Run Out Of Fuel

Sat Oct 08, 2011 6:04 pm

Quoting CharlieNoble (Reply 29):
OVER MOST OF HIS ROUTE he had no options for a safe landing if he'd lost an engine.

Your point is moot as this applies over land as well, especially with a light piston twin. There's this old saying when flying light twins: after one of your engines fail, the other one is just going to get you to the scene of the crash.

Quoting CharlieNoble (Reply 36):

My issue here was in planning a flight whose safety relies entirely on having both of a general aviation PISTON twin's engines running flawlessly for 10+ hours.

This is not the 1920s for freaks sake. Piston engines have never been so reliable.

Quoting CharlieNoble (Reply 36):

A commercially operated, TURBINE aircraft ferry flight is several orders of magnitude less likely to have an engine problem enroute...apples and oranges in terms of risk in my opinion.

What part of he ran out of fuel dont you understand? This was not an engine failure.

IMO if it had been a gross miscalculation on his behalf he would've landed halfway between the mainland and HI. But he made it 99% of the way there. And i'm sure he had every last drop of gas in those tanks. Flying westbound he would have a headwind the whole way, and everything seems to point to the winds being stronger than predicted.
 
N1120A
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RE: Hawaii Bound Cessna May Run Out Of Fuel

Sat Oct 08, 2011 6:19 pm

Quoting CharlieNoble (Reply 34):
And piston engines generally fun flawlessly for the duration of a flight. Except when they don't.

Eh, the same can be said of any machine.

Quoting CharlieNoble (Reply 36):
My issue here was in planning a flight whose safety relies entirely on having both of a general aviation PISTON twin's engines running flawlessly for 10+ hours.

Funny, I've planned many trips that rely on having a single engine run flawlessly for more hours than that. Its called a road trip. Given the high standards for MX of GA aircraft, your complaints fall on deaf ears.

Quoting Fly2HMO (Reply 38):
This is not the 1920s for freaks sake. Piston engines have never been so reliable.

Exactly.

Quoting Fly2HMO (Reply 38):
Flying westbound he would have a headwind the whole way, and everything seems to point to the winds being stronger than predicted.

And guess who would have screwed up the weather report? The NOAA. You know, the people funded by the taxpayer. If anything, we owe this guy a rescue on our dime because the systems we set up failed him.
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
sw733
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RE: Hawaii Bound Cessna May Run Out Of Fuel

Sat Oct 08, 2011 6:37 pm

Quoting Aloha717200 (Reply 12):
ooks like we've become a reliable source. (Is that a good or bad thing I wonder?)

Having been on this website for many years now...if the media begins to trust A.Net "expert" contributors, it will get a lot of bad info

Quoting United_fan (Reply 24):
11 hours in a Cessna with no restroom?

Pop the door open and lean out  
 
QANTAS747-438
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RE: Hawaii Bound Cessna May Run Out Of Fuel

Sat Oct 08, 2011 6:50 pm

How come nobody has mentioned the range of the Cessna 310? With no fuel reserves it can go 662mi. With fuel reserves and optional fuel it can go 1535mi. West Coast to Hawaii is 2500mi. How did this plane squeeze out another 1000 mi?

https://www.airliners.net/aircraft-data/stats.main?id=149
My posts/replies are strictly my opinion and not that of any company, organization, or Southwest Airlines.
 
Venom831
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RE: Hawaii Bound Cessna May Run Out Of Fuel

Sat Oct 08, 2011 6:52 pm

Saw him take off from MRY, looked normal to me, had the pods on the wings, seemed like a really slow takeoff to me though....is that maybe the extra tanks? Looked similar to one of those FedEx cessna caravans with a full load.
 
Goldenshield
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RE: Hawaii Bound Cessna May Run Out Of Fuel

Sat Oct 08, 2011 6:57 pm

Quoting QANTAS747-438 (Reply 41):
How come nobody has mentioned the range of the Cessna 310? With no fuel reserves it can go 662mi. With fuel reserves and optional fuel it can go 1535mi. West Coast to Hawaii is 2500mi. How did this plane squeeze out another 1000 mi?

Read through the thread. It's already been mentioned several times that he had ferry tanks installed.
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tcasalert
Posts: 448
Joined: Mon Jul 11, 2011 11:34 am

RE: Hawaii Bound Cessna May Run Out Of Fuel

Sat Oct 08, 2011 7:13 pm

Quoting CharlieNoble (Reply 32):
costs a lot of tax dollars
Quoting CharlieNoble (Reply 36):
And sharing that risk with US taxpayers and rescue crews.

WTF has it got to do with the "US Taxpayer"? Tell you what then, lets just cancel every flight into and out of the USA. After all, every flight contains some element of risk. Or just pull the rescue services completely, and leave them to sort themselves out. That'll help you "tax payer's pocket". Or then will you be whining that they weren't there to help their own?

Seriously, get over yourself. We are dealing with a professional pilot who has presumably done countless ferry flights in the past. This isn't the local nutjob jumping in a plane and hoping for the best (seems like you're here posting on A.net).
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alasizon
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RE: Hawaii Bound Cessna May Run Out Of Fuel

Sat Oct 08, 2011 7:32 pm

Quoting CharlieNoble (Reply 29):
OVER MOST OF HIS ROUTE he had no options for a safe landing if he'd lost an engine.

Nor do any of the other twin aircraft that fly from mainland US to HI. Yes ETOPS exists and every precaution is taken on these flights. Same was done on this flight. The winds were a little bit stronger than expected. 13mi is not a HUGE difference and considering how light a Cessna 310 is, 13mi on a ferry flight over the Pacific isn't bad. He was a professional pilot and executed a successful ditching.
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Charlienoble
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RE: Hawaii Bound Cessna May Run Out Of Fuel

Sat Oct 08, 2011 7:38 pm

Quoting Fly2HMO (Reply 38):
What part of he ran out of fuel dont you understand? This was not an engine failure.

Have you actually been reading my posts?

Do YOU not understand that potential engine failure is a factor in fuel planning when you have more than one engine? Carrying enough fuel to account for an engine failure mid-flight in a twin would have mooted the fuel exhaustion / unexpected headwinds issue that caused this plane to ditch.

I realize that carrying that much fuel was not physically possible in this case, so in my opinion it should never have departed. Which is a subject for this debate. But I'm not an idiot for mentioning it as the tone of your post implies.

Quoting N1120A (Reply 39):
Quoting CharlieNoble (Reply 34):
And piston engines generally fun flawlessly for the duration of a flight. Except when they don't.

Eh, the same can be said of any machine.

Which is why when your safety and the safety of those who would have to come rescue you depends on a machine, your plan needs to take into account the potential for a failure. Especially if you are fortunate enough to have two of them! Planning a flight that can only be completed safely on two perfectly functioning engines is in my opinion not good airmanship, even if it is perfectly legal and financially lucrative.

Quoting N1120A (Reply 39):
Quoting CharlieNoble (Reply 36):
My issue here was in planning a flight whose safety relies entirely on having both of a general aviation PISTON twin's engines running flawlessly for 10+ hours.

Funny, I've planned many trips that rely on having a single engine run flawlessly for more hours than that. Its called a road trip. Given the high standards for MX of GA aircraft, your complaints fall on deaf ears.

Agreed, except that in the case of this particular ferry flight an engine failure halfway there would likely have resulted in death for the pilot and would have incurred substantial expense and personal risk in the futile rescue effort. On the road you pay AAA to be standing by to come get you. In general aviation that cost is borne by all the taxpayers and the return on investment is debatable.

Quoting N1120A (Reply 39):

Quoting Fly2HMO (Reply 38):
This is not the 1920s for freaks sake. Piston engines have never been so reliable.

Exactly.

There are plenty of recent piston engine failures in the NTSB files. Rare, but enough to suggest that flights should be planned to account for it. On the other side of that coin, turbine engines almost NEVER fail, yet countless hours of training and strict ETOPs regulations have been put in place to deal with it. Including requirements to carry additional FUEL.

Quoting Fly2HMO (Reply 38):
Quoting CharlieNoble (Reply 29):
OVER MOST OF HIS ROUTE he had no options for a safe landing if he'd lost an engine.

Your point is moot as this applies over land as well, especially with a light piston twin. There's this old saying when flying light twins: after one of your engines fail, the other one is just going to get you to the scene of the crash.

This is a great saying but only partly true. Yes, at high takeoff weights/density altitude you are screwed either way if you lose an engine at low speed and low altitude. But over land in cruise flight you'd be foolish not to route yourself close enough to airports so that you could use altitude and your remaining performance from the good engine to land safely in the event of a failure. But the point about light twin performance is taken, and reinforces my opinion that trying to fly one to Hawaii is a bad idea to begin with.

Quoting N1120A (Reply 39):
Quoting Fly2HMO (Reply 38):
Flying westbound he would have a headwind the whole way, and everything seems to point to the winds being stronger than predicted.

And guess who would have screwed up the weather report? The NOAA. You know, the people funded by the taxpayer. If anything, we owe this guy a rescue on our dime because the systems we set up failed him.

So, you're in effect saying that we should not only expect 100% confidence in the reliability of piston engines...we should also demand perfect accuracy in winds aloft predictions? Really? I have operated machines in the elements for a good part of my life and nothing I have seen suggests that these expectations are realistic.


I think there are two strands to this argument.

First is whether the flight plan for this ferry flight was reasonably prudent. In my opinion, not prudent enough for me or my family to sit in that plane. That's a personal assessment and decision affecting me only.

The second is how much risk we collectively should be willing to assume in order to support general aviation export. If the only people involved were the ferry pilots, then I'd say that they should be allowed to take whatever risks they want and live with the outcome (the libertarian approach). But when you have a taxpayer-funded rescue capability that WILL respond regardless, the cost and risk needs to be weighed against the benefit. In this case, if it were a high enough national priority to support GA export then the gov't ought to just outright subsidize a safer way to get aircraft to the far corners of the world. In effect we are already subsidizing it by being ready to respond to the call when one of these guys doesn't make it...but the subsidy is hidden until our rescuers come to grief. THEN will come the question "why the hell was this guy allowed to fly to Hawaii in a light twin?". And if the public can live with the answer "It's the cost of doing business", so be it I guess. Not my call.
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Charlienoble
Posts: 168
Joined: Tue Mar 02, 2010 11:37 pm

RE: Hawaii Bound Cessna May Run Out Of Fuel

Sat Oct 08, 2011 7:54 pm

Quoting TCASAlert (Reply 44):
WTF has it got to do with the "US Taxpayer"? Tell you what then, lets just cancel every flight into and out of the USA. After all, every flight contains some element of risk. Or just pull the rescue services completely, and leave them to sort themselves out. That'll help you "tax payer's pocket". Or then will you be whining that they weren't there to help their own?

I think we can disagree in a civilized fashion. I don't think comparing the reliability of GA and Part 121 aviation is fair. But since you mentioned it, a commercial flight would be required to account for the possiblity of an engine failure on a 10-hour flight. Even if a turbine failure is many times less likely.

No I would not be whining about not rescuing the guy...but I would also support regulations preventing an overwater flight that was impossible to complete safely if one engine fails.

Quoting Alasizon (Reply 45):
Quoting CharlieNoble (Reply 29):
OVER MOST OF HIS ROUTE he had no options for a safe landing if he'd lost an engine.

Nor do any of the other twin aircraft that fly from mainland US to HI.

Untrue! If your commercial jet loses an engine between KLAX and PHNL it is required to have enough fuel onboard to reach safety on one engine, along with required reserves and dispatch tracking to monitor fuel progress.

Quoting TCASAlert (Reply 44):
Seriously, get over yourself. We are dealing with a professional pilot who has presumably done countless ferry flights in the past.

Really? I have been in the past, and now work alongside the guys who share the risk that this kind of flight planning creates, and every April I get to review how much of my salary goes toward supporting the effort, so I don't think there is much to 'get over'.

As for the professional pilot bit...professional pilots are pressured to make bad decisions for 'business reasons' all the damn time. This guy departed on a flight that left insufficient safety margin, even with two running engines, as evidenced by the fact that he swam the last leg of the trip. None of his previously successful ferry flights would have helped in the event of even a minor mechanical problem...to which GA aircaft are particularly susceptible.

For the record I am happy for the good outcome. But it cracks me up how you guys are raking me over the coals for suggesting this flight was poorly conceived. I'd expect the burden of proof to be on the other side when the machine performs perfectly and it still ends with the pilot swimming.

[Edited 2011-10-08 13:09:47]
"When I get sad, I stop being sad and be awesome instead. True Story."- Barney Stinson
 
B595
Posts: 210
Joined: Wed Mar 18, 2009 4:52 am

RE: Hawaii Bound Cessna May Run Out Of Fuel

Sat Oct 08, 2011 7:57 pm

Quoting N1120A (Reply 39):
And guess who would have screwed up the weather report? The NOAA. You know, the people funded by the taxpayer. If anything, we owe this guy a rescue on our dime because the systems we set up failed him.

To the contrary, it's quite likely that NOAA did nothing wrong.

Good weather forecasts require accurate initial conditions; Accurate initial data requires lots of weather observations, and there just aren't a whole lot in the 2500 miles between Hawaii and MRY: A thin string of ACARS reports from high-flying commercial aircraft, and a smattering of ship observations. That's it. There would be almost no observations at the cruising level of this Cessna. Couple the lack of observations with chaos theory, and you end up with weather forecasts that sometimes have large errors even in short-range 12-hour forecasts. You can't blame this on anyone, it's just an inherent risk with a poorly observed chaotic system.

Bottom line is, If you're going to fly in a poorly observed region of the world like this for 12 hours, you have to check a basket of weather forecasts, each initialized from slightly different initial conditions. If, say, 5% or 10% (whatever your risk threshold is) or more of these forecasts have unfavorable winds, then it would be poor risk management to start the flight. You wait for another day.
 
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vanguard737
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RE: Hawaii Bound Cessna May Run Out Of Fuel

Sat Oct 08, 2011 8:20 pm

Quoting CharlieNoble (Reply 32):
But unfortunately there's no such thing as "at your own risk" any more. Everybody wants to be free to make bad decisions but not have to suffer the consequences. When people intentionally set up the potential for avoidable emergencies - for their own financial savings - then I think it's the wrong thing to do.

Maintaining at-sea rescue capability costs a lot of tax dollars, and rescue crews risk their lives every time they go out.

So the response to his emergency call should have been "Sorry, buddy. It's too expensive to rescue you. Plus, there may be risk involved for us. Who do you think we are? The COAST GUARD?!"

The whole point of air/sea rescue is to save people when things go wrong. I flatly disagree with your belief that a cost/benefit analysis should be performed before attempting a rescue. It's not a capital for-profit enterprise!
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