Moderators: jsumali2, richierich, ua900, PanAm_DC10, hOMSaR

 
bennett123
Posts: 9830
Joined: Sun Aug 15, 2004 12:49 am

RE: Scrapped Frontier Airlines A318s

Wed Oct 12, 2011 11:27 pm

My guess is 40 A319, and prob 40 A320's.
 
User avatar
mariner
Posts: 19473
Joined: Fri Nov 23, 2001 7:29 am

RE: Scrapped Frontier Airlines A318s

Wed Oct 12, 2011 11:38 pm

Quoting bennett123 (Reply 50):
My guess is 40 A319, and prob 40 A320's.

Depends. The CEO has said that he leans to A320 size aircraft, for obvious reasons.

However, John Leahy, of Airbus, has said that the A319Neo is the one that destroys the business case for the C Series - which Republic also ordered.

At the time of the Airbus order, Frontier was the first and only airline to have gone with the A319Neo, the launch customer for the type, so you can pretty much guarantee that Airbus gave 'em a fairly amazing deal.  

mariner
aeternum nauta
 
XT6Wagon
Posts: 2729
Joined: Tue Feb 13, 2007 4:06 pm

RE: Scrapped Frontier Airlines A318s

Wed Oct 12, 2011 11:46 pm

Quoting n471wn (Reply 37):
So are you saying the leasing company bought these a/c with the knowledege that they would have such a short service life and be scrapped and that they made a profit at the end of the day? I doubt this very much. I can assure you if that were true then they would buy more a/c to scrap......no someone made a mistake......

I'm saying it doesn't matter at all. They didn't buy the 318 on speculation. They were aquired for the specific airline. So the lease deal would HAVE to be high enough to pay for the loss of value due to time/use + profit. So when the lease ended, the leasing company moves on and finds the highest profit source for this asset. Selling for parts was worth alot more than they could get from a new lease on this aircraft.
 
User avatar
turk223
Posts: 422
Joined: Sat Aug 23, 2003 4:16 am

RE: Scrapped Frontier Airlines A318s

Thu Oct 13, 2011 12:14 am

So, is it fair to say that Avianca has made a poor decision in swapping its Fokker 100s for A318s? It seems that AV is pretty OK with it!
 
fpetrutiu
Posts: 741
Joined: Tue Aug 07, 2007 11:28 pm

RE: Scrapped Frontier Airlines A318s

Thu Oct 13, 2011 12:23 am

Quoting mariner (Reply 51):
However, John Leahy, of Airbus, has said that the A319Neo is the one that destroys the business case for the C Series - which Republic also ordered.

Of course he did... he's a sales person...

He also said this: "Although the aircraft will be significantly heavier than the 717, the additional cost of landing weight charges at expensive European and Asian airports will be offset by the A-318's lower operating costs, wider cabin, cockpit commonality, and the fuel efficiency and lower maintenance costs of its PW6000 engine, Leahy said. ",

we all know how that turned out... Boeing 717 sales: 156, Airbus A318: 75, not anywhere near the 50% marketshare between the 717 and the 318 what he promissed (it's in the same article).

http://www.aviationweek.com/shownews/today/topsto1.htm
Florin
Orlando, FL
 
Newark727
Posts: 2123
Joined: Tue Dec 29, 2009 6:42 pm

RE: Scrapped Frontier Airlines A318s

Thu Oct 13, 2011 12:29 am

Quoting turk223 (Reply 53):
So, is it fair to say that Avianca has made a poor decision in swapping its Fokker 100s for A318s? It seems that AV is pretty OK with it!

Well, they do have a bunch of A32x aircraft elsewhere in the fleet, which offers certain economies of scale that are probably more difficult in the Fokker. Also they picked them up used.
 
SCL767
Posts: 2812
Joined: Sun Feb 26, 2006 6:25 am

RE: Scrapped Frontier Airlines A318s

Thu Oct 13, 2011 12:48 am

Quoting Newark727 (Reply 55):
Also they picked them up used.

AV will take delivery of LAN's remaining 10 A-318s by 2013. The A-318s aren't popular with LAN for various reasons, luckily LAN was able to offload them to another carrier.
 
User avatar
TZTriStar500
Posts: 891
Joined: Sat Jan 03, 2004 1:33 am

RE: Scrapped Frontier Airlines A318s

Thu Oct 13, 2011 1:05 am

Quoting n471wn (Reply 1):
These were all new a/c and sadly the word was they could not be sold. But I do hope someone in the leasing company who ordered these and leased them to Frontier was fired.......this is an economic waste as these a/c should never have been built
Quoting SonomaFlyer (Reply 9):
I doubt the leasing company fired anyone due to this deal.
Quoting SPREE34 (Reply 11):
Why? If Frontier wanted 318s, they were going to lease them from somewhere.
Quoting n471wn (Reply 37):
So are you saying the leasing company bought these a/c with the knowledege that they would have such a short service life and be scrapped and that they made a profit at the end of the day? I doubt this very much. I can assure you if that were true then they would buy more a/c to scrap......no someone made a mistake......

First, Frontier did not lease them, they were owned. In fact 810 and 812 were added in May/June of 07 and out 3 years later. My opinion, but a very poor purchase decision by F9 management at the time even if they were cheap. As to firing those responsible, that management is no longer with the company for good or bad.

Quoting NASCARAirforce (Reply 12):

They couldn't sell them to an airline that currently uses them for dirt cheap?

No, there is just plain no market for used A318s. Its an asset that's worth more in pieces.

Quoting sw733 (Reply 13):
Why sell the whole aircraft for "dirt cheap" when you can sell the parts for decent money...? Or use them yourself for savings versus brand new parts.

They weren't sold for dirt cheap but much less than when new. Frontier is not in the business of parting out aircraft, plus not in the need for as many components as generated by a part out especially of 7 airframes.

Quoting EDTrauma (Reply 23):
According to Planespotters.Net:

Air France (18), Avianca (15), British Airways (2), Frontier (4), LAN (10), RAK Airways (1), TAROM (4)

I show 52 total: Air France (18), Avianca (15), British Airways (2), Frontier (4), LAN (9), TAROM (4), Avianca (10), Avianca Brasil (5)

Quoting kcrwflyer (Reply 24):
I think they've dedicated some of their aircraft/tails to certain employees or people for various reasons.

No, Frontier has not done that to any A318s.

Quoting Newark727 (Reply 39):
Are Frontier planning to scrap the rest of their A318s too? They still have some in service- I saw 803 just a couple days ago.

The last 4 (801, 802, 803, 805) were sold to Apollo Aviation and were to be wfu this fall. Three were to go to another operator in the Middle East and 1 scrapped, likely 805 as its the prototype. However, with the 4 A319s going back to GECAS in 2012, the four A318s are no leased for 1, 2, and 3 year terms. 805 will be withdrawn in Sept 2012, two in fall 2013, and the last in 2014.

Quoting CRJ900 (Reply 41):
It appears that only Frontier A318s are being scrapped... could it be that they configured them "wrong" - 114 economy seats with PTV, giving high CASM?

As stated, they are now 120 pax and one can't really configure a cabin 'wrong' as very often they are reconfigured anyway with new operators. The LiveTV is de-moded (removed) when aircraft are returned.

Quoting n471wn (Reply 44):
What do Frontier employees think about the premature demise of the A-318?

I don't have any particular affinity for it except we have to maintain another configuration for just 4 aircraft. I wish they had gone away as originally planned.

Quoting mariner (Reply 45):

It should also be remembered that Frontier got them at the launch customer discount

Correct. Frontier was the A318 launch customer and they were all to have been A318-122s with PW6000s. When this engine had problems, Frontier pushed to have the CFM installed which was not the original plan. 805 originally flew with PW6000s as the prototype (MSN 1660).

Quoting wn700driver (Reply 46):
Anyway, having had the pleasure of riding most of those scrapped planes, I am a little saddened by this, but I know it wouldn't have likely happened if F9 wasn't on the ropes. Inefficient as it may have been, a 318 already in the fleet is almost always better than straight up ordering a new plane.

It really has nothing to do with Frontier's financial condition. The aircraft is just plain no longer fuel efficient with its size, weight, and current oil prices. Retiring them would still have happened and my guess they would have been gone sooner as more A320s would have been added. Hypothetically keeping an A318 versus even a used A319 is better any way you look at it.

Quoting wn700driver (Reply 46):
But for F9, I can see how cutting up a 318 and axing a route or frequency is a decision that would have made immediate sense. This may come back to haunt them if they end up needing the capacity later (which frankly I hope they will anyway!), and have to order new planes to replace... their new planes!

No. Used A319s can be had for decent lease rates. Frontier just doesn't need the capacity right now though. If and when they return to steady profitability, this will change.

Quoting mariner (Reply 47):
Frontier already has new planes on order.

True, but not for 4-5 years for the CS300 and neo.

Quoting turk223 (Reply 53):
So, is it fair to say that Avianca has made a poor decision in swapping its Fokker 100s for A318s? It seems that AV is pretty OK with it!

My take here is that the lease rates were very low.
35 years of American Trans Air/ATA Airlines, 1973-2008. A great little airline that will not be soon forgotten.
 
n7371f
Posts: 1836
Joined: Fri Jul 04, 2008 3:54 pm

RE: Scrapped Frontier Airlines A318s

Thu Oct 13, 2011 1:19 am

Quoting n471wn (Reply 1):
Scrapped at GWO

N806FR
N807FR
N808FR
N809FR

Scrapped at RFD

N810FR
N812FR

N804FR is stored at Lourdes, France and at last check was to be scrapped as well.
 
User avatar
mariner
Posts: 19473
Joined: Fri Nov 23, 2001 7:29 am

RE: Scrapped Frontier Airlines A318s

Thu Oct 13, 2011 1:22 am

Quoting fpetrutiu (Reply 54):
Of course he did... he's a sales person...

I think you missed my point.

Because he said that, it became fairly important that there be a launch customer for the A319Neo - and there wasn't one until Republic/Frontier put its hand up.

Which, in terms of pricing, was an extremely smart move by CEO Bedford.

Quoting TZTriStar500 (Reply 57):
First, Frontier did not lease them, they were owned.

Not all of them were owned, at least not originally:

http://www.businesswire.com/news/hom...es-Fleet-Information-Airline-Signs

"DENVER--(BUSINESS WIRE)--June 10, 2003--Frontier Airlines (Nasdaq: FRNT) today announced it has reached an agreement with GE Capital Aviation Services (GECAS) to lease two additional Airbus 318 aircraft, scheduled for delivery in May 2004 and March 2005, and one additional Airbus 319 aircraft, scheduled for delivery in February 2005."

As to:

Quoting TZTriStar500 (Reply 57):
Frontier was the A318 launch customer and they were all to have been A318-122s with PW6000s. When this engine had problems, Frontier pushed to have the CFM installed which was not the original plan. 805 originally flew with PW6000s as the prototype (MSN 1660).

Not quite. Frontier was not the original launch customer and Frontier did not push to have the CFM's - Air France did.

When the problems developed with the PW's, Airbus offered airlines the choice of waiting for the PW, staying with the A318 with CFM's or switching to A319's.

Most other airlines decided to switch and as they dropped away Frontier became - by attrition - the launch customer.

mariner
aeternum nauta
 
User avatar
mariner
Posts: 19473
Joined: Fri Nov 23, 2001 7:29 am

RE: Scrapped Frontier Airlines A318s

Thu Oct 13, 2011 1:32 am

Quoting TZTriStar500 (Reply 57):
My opinion, but a very poor purchase decision by F9 management at the time even if they were cheap.

Once again, at the time they were ordered and the first delivered, fuel was still very cheap. Oil did not begin its run until the end of of 2003, when it passed $30 a barrel - and Frontier was one of the first airlines to warn of this.

This lower fuel price very much in their favor with regard to their economic viability, and I disagree that it was "a poor purchase decision" - especially in view of (a) the price and (b) what it did for the relationship with Airbus.

mariner

[Edited 2011-10-12 18:32:35]
aeternum nauta
 
User avatar
TZTriStar500
Posts: 891
Joined: Sat Jan 03, 2004 1:33 am

RE: Scrapped Frontier Airlines A318s

Thu Oct 13, 2011 1:37 am

Quoting mariner (Reply 59):
Not all of them were owned, at least not originally:

Right, forgot a few were leased most likely 806 and 807, but most were not.

Quoting mariner (Reply 59):
Not quite. Frontier was not the original launch customer and Frontier did not push to have the CFM's - Air France did.

When the problems developed with the PW's, Airbus offered airlines the choice of waiting for the PW, staying with the A318 with CFM's or switching to A319's.

Most other airlines decided to switch and as they dropped away Frontier became - by attrition - the launch customer.

OK, but all I have read and recall that at least Frontier can be called 'launch' or a first customer as they took the first delivery. I had thought F9 pushed for the CFM, but it sounds at least they were pushed into it with the problems and delays with the PW6000.
35 years of American Trans Air/ATA Airlines, 1973-2008. A great little airline that will not be soon forgotten.
 
User avatar
TZTriStar500
Posts: 891
Joined: Sat Jan 03, 2004 1:33 am

RE: Scrapped Frontier Airlines A318s

Thu Oct 13, 2011 1:42 am

Quoting mariner (Reply 60):
Once again, at the time they were ordered and the first delivered, fuel was still very cheap. Oil did not begin its run until the end of of 2003, when it passed $30 a barrel - and Frontier was one of the first airlines to warn of this.

This lower fuel price very much in their favor with regard to their economic viability, and I disagree that it was "a poor purchase decision" - especially in view of (a) the price and (b) what it did for the relationship with Airbus.

We can agree to disagree, but I think the addition of the A318 at all was poor as it always had border line favorable economics. However, my comment in reply 57 was mostly toward the decision to add 810 and 812, not the initial order. As a comparison, the 717 was already years out of production at that point and outsold the A318 nearly three fold.
35 years of American Trans Air/ATA Airlines, 1973-2008. A great little airline that will not be soon forgotten.
 
User avatar
mariner
Posts: 19473
Joined: Fri Nov 23, 2001 7:29 am

RE: Scrapped Frontier Airlines A318s

Thu Oct 13, 2011 1:56 am

Quoting TZTriStar500 (Reply 61):
OK, but all I have read and recall that at least Frontier can be called 'launch' or a first customer as they took the first delivery.

As I said earlier.

As to the CFM, Airbus did not originally offer it with the A318 - it was to be all PW - but Air France said they would only buy the aircaft with the CFM. So Airbus offered the CFM - Air France ordered the aircraft.

Quoting TZTriStar500 (Reply 62):
We can agree to disagree, but I think the addition of the A318 at all was poor as it always had border line favorable economics.

We can go around this forever but I would point out that, apart from the much lower price of fuel, there was another issue.

In those days, Frontier, generally, had much lower load factors than it has now. The first ever quarterly profit in 1998 was achieved on a 55% load factor. The value of the A318 was that it could fly the thinner routes, with fewer seats to discount.

It was not until a few years ago that Frontier started to achieve the very high load factors it is enjoying now.

mariner
aeternum nauta
 
User avatar
LAXintl
Posts: 24734
Joined: Wed May 24, 2000 12:12 pm

RE: Scrapped Frontier Airlines A318s

Thu Oct 13, 2011 2:02 am

Indeed Frontier was never the launch customer for the A318, having placed its order in October 1999 with hopes of first delivery in 2001.

The first order for the A318 in the US went to TWA(50+100 options) in 1998 followed by America West(15+15option) in 1999.

TWA simply never lived to the see the A318, while America West opted to swap for other A32x models when the A318 delays became so significant.

As Mariner states, it really was the attrition and loss of one customer after another that left Frontier in the front of the line when the A318s finally were ready for delivery.

While the merits of the A318 today are dubious, as I tend to recall Frontier back the time (1999) still had plenty of 737-200s which the A318 was a suitable 1:1 replacement for capacity wise.
As bad as the A318 might look today, it still was better than the 737-200 economically, and fit within Frontiers stated plan of single family replacement for its 737 fleet.
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
fpetrutiu
Posts: 741
Joined: Tue Aug 07, 2007 11:28 pm

RE: Scrapped Frontier Airlines A318s

Thu Oct 13, 2011 2:04 am

Quoting TZTriStar500 (Reply 62):
. As a comparison, the 717 was already years out of production at that point and outsold the A318 nearly three fold.

Sure but Airbus was the one comparing the A318 to the 717 saying that it will sell just as many having a 50% market share. They had no "new" competitor at the time from Boeing, the 717 was not being made, and the 737-600 was dead-on-arrival.
Florin
Orlando, FL
 
User avatar
TZTriStar500
Posts: 891
Joined: Sat Jan 03, 2004 1:33 am

RE: Scrapped Frontier Airlines A318s

Thu Oct 13, 2011 2:11 am

Quoting mariner (Reply 63):
In those days, Frontier, generally, had much lower load factors than it has now. The first ever quarterly profit in 1998 was achieved on a 55% load factor. The value of the A318 was that it could fly the thinner routes, with fewer seats to discount.
Quoting LAXintl (Reply 64):
While the merits of the A318 today are dubious, as I tend to recall Frontier back the time (1999) still had plenty of 737-200s which the A318 was a suitable 1:1 replacement for capacity wise.
As bad as the A318 might look today, it still was better than the 737-200 economically, and fit within Frontiers stated plan of single family replacement for its 737 fleet.

I can agree with this, but certainly sounds like Frontier was the exception in this case being able to make it work at the time. Its just shocking how quickly it can and did fall out of favor and certainly why only 60 were built.
35 years of American Trans Air/ATA Airlines, 1973-2008. A great little airline that will not be soon forgotten.
 
User avatar
mariner
Posts: 19473
Joined: Fri Nov 23, 2001 7:29 am

RE: Scrapped Frontier Airlines A318s

Thu Oct 13, 2011 2:28 am

Quoting TZTriStar500 (Reply 66):
I can agree with this, but certainly sounds like Frontier was the exception in this case being able to make it work at the time. Its just shocking how quickly it can and did fall out of favor and certainly why only 60 were built.

The A318 was always a shrink too far, but for Frontier it was a reasonably happy alignment of the stars - at the time. And if fuel had stayed low, it might have been a happy alignment of the stars for a longer time.

It digs back into a very complex history. At the time that Frontier made the first Airbus order we were all scratching our heads as to where it was going to get the money - Frontier really was a midget airline then and remember that Boeing had simply refused to play ball on prices.

It wasn't that Airbus offered particularly lower prices than Boeing - they weren't that much lower, but the prices were better if Frontier took the A318.

What Airbus did do was introduce Frontier to various European banks, and effectively underwrote some loans that might have been impossible for Frontier to organize without them. Then the it all hit the fan and Frontier fell into the catbird seat.

But was never only about the aircraft. It was also about forging a relationship with a powerful ally - which is still paying off.

mariner

[Edited 2011-10-12 19:30:49]
aeternum nauta
 
User avatar
TZTriStar500
Posts: 891
Joined: Sat Jan 03, 2004 1:33 am

RE: Scrapped Frontier Airlines A318s

Thu Oct 13, 2011 2:44 am

Quoting fpetrutiu (Reply 65):
They had no "new" competitor at the time from Boeing, the 717 was not being made, and the 737-600 was dead-on-arrival.

Not quite accurate. The first A318 delivered in July 03 and the the last 717 was delivered in April 06 almost 3 years later. Also, the 736 sold 9 more aircraft than the A318 at 69 with the last delivery being in Sept. 06. There were A318 deliveries in 07 through 09 with the last two to BA. The 736 can still technically be ordered I believe, but I don't think we'll see any more.

I should note that the A318CJ is still produced with 15 built and I see 6 on order so is the last in its class to still be actively manufactured even if its as a corporate jet version.
35 years of American Trans Air/ATA Airlines, 1973-2008. A great little airline that will not be soon forgotten.
 
mcg
Posts: 1097
Joined: Tue Sep 16, 2003 11:49 am

RE: Scrapped Frontier Airlines A318s

Thu Oct 13, 2011 4:04 pm

The conventional wisdom is that eliminating the A318's and adding A319's or A320's is a good thing for Frontier. The apparent reason for this is that the operating costs of the A318 and A319 are very similar and the A319 has more seats, thus the A319 has more revenue opportunity. This is very true if one were considering purchasing new aircraft from Airbus. The reason this is true is that purchase price of the two aircraft are pretty similar and it's easy to amortize the difference over a 25 year service life.

It's not true if one already owns a fleet of A318's. The reason is pretty simple. I suspect the A318's yield $5 to $7 million in disposal proceeds when they are sold to scrappers. Used 319's cost something like $35 million. Thus you have to dispose of 5 to 7 A318's to generate enough cash to purchase one A319. Which is a more productive asset, a fleet of 5 to 7 A318's or a single A319? The answer is easy, it's the 318's.

In addition the used A319 don't conform to the Frontier standard in terms of configuration, thus creating some maintenance and operational issues.

I should note that I have no firsthand knowledge of the actual disposal proceeds of the A318's nor purchase prices of used A319's, but I suspect the numbers used above are reasonably close.

I think what made the A318's work for F9 was the price offered by Airbus, I suspect at the time Airbus was a bit of a motivated seller. Once RAH bought the airline the individual purchase price on the airplanes sort of disappeared into the overall price paid for the airline.
 
panais
Posts: 228
Joined: Mon May 05, 2008 1:50 pm

RE: Scrapped Frontier Airlines A318s

Thu Oct 13, 2011 5:09 pm

Quoting mcg (Reply 69):
I suspect the A318's yield $5 to $7 million in disposal proceeds when they are sold to scrappers. Used 319's cost something like $35 million.

If you are right on the A318 selling price, then anyone who can spend $35 million can buy the 5 A318s and start an airline. The other issue that I see is what makes the Frontier A318 scrappable is the CFM CF56-5 which I suspect can be installed on the A319s.

[Edited 2011-10-13 10:25:00]
 
User avatar
enilria
Posts: 10284
Joined: Fri Feb 22, 2008 7:15 pm

RE: Scrapped Frontier Airlines A318s

Thu Oct 13, 2011 5:18 pm

Quoting n471wn (Reply 1):
Scrapped at RFD
N810FR
N812FR

Perhaps this was part of RFD's incentive plan to get F9 service. LOL
 
User avatar
mariner
Posts: 19473
Joined: Fri Nov 23, 2001 7:29 am

RE: Scrapped Frontier Airlines A318s

Thu Oct 13, 2011 6:58 pm

Quoting mcg (Reply 69):
It's not true if one already owns a fleet of A318's. The reason is pretty simple. I suspect the A318's yield $5 to $7 million in disposal proceeds when they are sold to scrappers. Used 319's cost something like $35 million. Thus you have to dispose of 5 to 7 A318's to generate enough cash to purchase one A319. Which is a more productive asset, a fleet of 5 to 7 A318's or a single A319? The answer is easy, it's the 318's.

Um - I have some problems with that. When Rossiya (almost) signed to take a couple of A318 and some A319, it ran away from the deal as fast as it could when it saw the actual A318 numbers. The only way the deal could be salvaged at all was for Frontier to offer all A319's.

Few people have defended Frontier's decision to acquire the A318 more than I, but I can't defend the aircraft now because the economic environment - fuel - has changed.

The A318's were certainly cheaper to acquire than the A319's and as long as fuel was at lower prices they were sort-of viable. That has changed dramatically with the rise in fuel costs and when you start to talk about a very high break even load factor, then the value of the A318 - whatever it originally was - diminishes.

Quoting mcg (Reply 69):
Once RAH bought the airline the individual purchase price on the airplanes sort of disappeared into the overall price paid for the airline.

I'm not sure I follow that. The cost of the mortgages/leases didn't go away.

mariner
aeternum nauta
 
User avatar
TZTriStar500
Posts: 891
Joined: Sat Jan 03, 2004 1:33 am

RE: Scrapped Frontier Airlines A318s

Fri Oct 14, 2011 2:04 am

Quoting mcg (Reply 69):
It's not true if one already owns a fleet of A318's. The reason is pretty simple. I suspect the A318's yield $5 to $7 million in disposal proceeds when they are sold to scrappers. Used 319's cost something like $35 million. Thus you have to dispose of 5 to 7 A318's to generate enough cash to purchase one A319. Which is a more productive asset, a fleet of 5 to 7 A318's or a single A319? The answer is easy, it's the 318's.

This is not accurate as no used A319s will be purchased, but leased, which totally changes the initial cash outlay. Yes, there is now a lease cost versus none, but the lower CASM with 18 more seats outweighs this.

Quoting mcg (Reply 69):
In addition the used A319 don't conform to the Frontier standard in terms of configuration, thus creating some maintenance and operational issues.

This is not accurate either as Frontier will not and does not operate any largely non-conforming configurations with some minor exceptions (A319s 951-953 and A320s 203 and 204) and the interiors are all the same. In addition, lessors generally offer $1 million plus per aircraft toward reconfiguration as they move to new lessees.
35 years of American Trans Air/ATA Airlines, 1973-2008. A great little airline that will not be soon forgotten.
 
fpetrutiu
Posts: 741
Joined: Tue Aug 07, 2007 11:28 pm

RE: Scrapped Frontier Airlines A318s

Fri Oct 14, 2011 2:46 am

Quoting TZTriStar500 (Reply 68):
Not quite accurate. The first A318 delivered in July 03 and the the last 717 was delivered in April 06 almost 3 years later. Also, the 736 sold 9 more aircraft than the A318 at 69 with the last delivery being in Sept. 06. There were A318 deliveries in 07 through 09 with the last two to BA. The 736 can still technically be ordered I believe, but I don't think we'll see any more.

You are taking delivery dates, I am taking when Boeing stopped offering the 717's (January 13, 2005). The A318's, we are talking airline config not business jets, are just as dead-on-arrival as the Boeing 737-600 was.



http://www.seattlepi.com/business/ar...shut-down-717-jet-line-1164138.php
Florin
Orlando, FL
 
User avatar
TZTriStar500
Posts: 891
Joined: Sat Jan 03, 2004 1:33 am

RE: Scrapped Frontier Airlines A318s

Fri Oct 14, 2011 3:26 am

Quoting fpetrutiu (Reply 74):
You are taking delivery dates, I am taking when Boeing stopped offering the 717's (January 13, 2005). The A318's, we are talking airline config not business jets, are just as dead-on-arrival as the Boeing 737-600 was.

I'm confused what you are trying to say as I don't generally disagree. My only point was that all three were competitors for several years before the 717 was ceased to be offered as you point out and yet still out sold the other two. I'm no real cheerleader for of any of them as each manufacturer had different motivations for offering each of their respective models in this category, but all three could easily be considered sales disappointments.

[Edited 2011-10-13 20:35:00]
35 years of American Trans Air/ATA Airlines, 1973-2008. A great little airline that will not be soon forgotten.
 
Burkhard
Posts: 1916
Joined: Fri Nov 17, 2006 9:34 pm

RE: Scrapped Frontier Airlines A318s

Fri Oct 14, 2011 7:46 am

Quoting n471wn (Reply 1):
But I do hope someone in the leasing company who ordered these and leased them to Frontier was fired.......this is an economic waste as these a/c should never have been built
Quoting AirbusA6 (Reply 16):
The error was probably developing the A318 in the first place

The decision to build the A318 was taken in 1998. The purpose was to have the Airbus narrow body family cover at least the same size range as Boeing does.
At this time, several airlines were interested in the aircraft.
Airbus sold 20 to British Airways as example. This was the first Airbus sale to BA, so a door opener for an important costumor of today, this alone justifies the development - even if the original 20 were never built.
Frontier order the aircraft in 1999.

In all fairness, since 1998/1999 many things happened nobody expected - so nobody should be fired.

The hole segment of 100-120 seaters vanished as a consequence of what happended since then, the market changed to 70-95 regional jets and 150-200 seat ine aircraft.

The interesting question for me is if the CS100/CS300 and SSJ100, new arrivals in this ded segment, can make a change or will share the fate of the A318 and B 738.
 
bennett123
Posts: 9830
Joined: Sun Aug 15, 2004 12:49 am

RE: Scrapped Frontier Airlines A318s

Fri Oct 14, 2011 9:34 am

I assume you mean the Boeing B737-600?.
 
n471wn
Posts: 1717
Joined: Tue Dec 02, 2003 12:23 am

RE: Scrapped Frontier Airlines A318s

Sat Oct 15, 2011 9:30 pm

Keep in mind when comparing the 737-600 with the 318 that of the 69 737-600's built all are active except the one that was scrapped .

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos