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Richard28
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RE: BA To Add 3rd Daily MIA & 8th Daily JFK

Thu Oct 13, 2011 11:17 am

Quoting N62NA (Reply 21):
it just seems like their 777s could offer almost the same amount of F and J seats without hauling around what is likely to be a bunch of empty Y class seats.
Quoting steve6666 (Reply 28):
Don't underestimate the upper deck. I have refused upgrades from the upper deck to First in the past.

I cant find the source, but remember reading how a lot of BA's corporate clients request the 744 on the JFK route... the 777 layout on BA in club is not held in as high regard.
 
jacobin777
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RE: BA To Add 3rd Daily MIA & 8th Daily JFK

Thu Oct 13, 2011 2:42 pm

Quoting YTZ (Reply 14):
Quoting yellowtail (Reply 9):
The way I see it is that this may be an attempt by AA/BA to trash the yields to the point that DL gets fed up. They may be seeing DL getting a foothold and figured is was now or never to defend the turf.

Whoever puts up a few A380s is gonna win this game....
Quoting lightsaber (Reply 15):
Quoting heebeegb (Reply 10):
Cant see BA merging any NYC flights, the route is big money earner and it is all about frequency for BA/AA.

Frequency is for premium passengers. Hence why I think any non-high demand slots will drop to the 787 (no smaller). But... only after enough A388s are put on the route to meet seat demand at the most popular times.
Quoting astuteman (Reply 44):
Hard to see this route not seeing BA A380's fairly soon after EIS..

I recently spoke to one of BA's senior management (in fact, pretty much up the top of the IAG Group ladder). It was discussion on a few topics (such as JV-ATI, etc). While he did say "of course, situations change, etc", he was pretty sure LHR-JFK won't be seeing the A380 for now at least. HKG, JNB and LAX were the top markets being looked at with the A380. Again, "situations change".
"Up the Irons!"
 
vv701
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RE: BA To Add 3rd Daily MIA & 8th Daily JFK

Thu Oct 13, 2011 3:15 pm

Quoting bonusonus (Reply 29):
Have BA and AA synced up their schedules yet to better take advantage of this shuttle plan?

They synchronised their schedules at the start of the current summer season creating what in effect is almost, on the east to west routing, an on-the-hour, every-hour shuttle service throughout the day:

d. LHR 0830. BA117. a. JFK 1100
d. LHR 1000. BA175. a. JFK 1240
d. LHR 1055. AA101. a. JFK 1345
d. LHR 1300. BA177. a. JFK 1540
d. LHR 1400. AA105. a. JFK 1655
d. LHR 1505. BA115. a. JFK 1740
d. LHR 1600. BA113. a. JFK 1840
d. LHR 1700. AA107. a. JFK 2000
d. LHR 1800. BA179. a. JFK 2050
d. LHR 1900. AA141. a. JFK 2155
d. LHR 2000. BA183. a. JFK 2235

I guess that this schedule has a lot of appeal to the busy premium class customer travelling on a fully flexible ticket. Just turn up at LHR and get on the next flight.

The new BA173 flight at 1130 sort of fills the only gap in the current schedule between the almost 1100 flight and the 1300 departure. I wonder why this new flight is at 1130 and not 1200? Is it slot availability? Or do customers like to get comfortable and have an aperitif before lunch is served? I think probably the latter. BA currently have departures from LHR to LIN (BA562) and from LHR to YYZ (BA093) scheduled at 1200. They presumably could have swapped either of these for the 1130 slot that they are going to use!

The clock does not allow for such a neat timetable on the west to east routing as
 
washingtonian
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RE: BA To Add 3rd Daily MIA & 8th Daily JFK

Thu Oct 13, 2011 4:34 pm

Like others have said, BA has been running multiple daily 747s for years, if not decades. I'm sure they know what they are doing. Again, like others said, I wouldn't be surprised to see BA deploy the A-380 elsewhere. But who knows.

Nonetheless, 8X Daily on BA, 5X Daily on AA, and 2X daily on BA to LCY is pretty impressive!

Wait until they move into a consolidated T8...There will be 15X daily flights to London from one terminal!!! Btw, I know people don't like to acknowledge this, but 15X daily oneworld from JFK-LHR, 3X daily oneworld from EWR-LHR. Enough said about the JFK v. EWR battles....
 
LHRFlyer
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RE: BA To Add 3rd Daily MIA & 8th Daily JFK

Thu Oct 13, 2011 4:40 pm

Quoting VV701 (Reply 52):
I wonder why this new flight is at 1130 and not 1200? Is it slot availability?

Might be to meet MCT for certain connections on arrival.

Put another way, the 1505 LHR departure may at that time rather than at 1500 in order for inbound connections on a particular flight/flights to meet the MCT for this flight.
 
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N62NA
Posts: 4443
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RE: BA To Add 3rd Daily MIA & 8th Daily JFK

Thu Oct 13, 2011 5:08 pm

Quoting flymia (Reply 43):
I never seen any airlines give out financial facts about any route they fly.

Well, some people here have claimed in the past that - for example - AA's #1 profitable route is XXX-YYY and the like.

Quoting skipness1E (Reply 46):
Yes except the only markets BA make substantial profits in a deregulated environment is the North Atlantic.

Ah, here we have an example of this! How does this person know this? Are there facts to back this up? Does this person have access to BA's financial data?

Quoting Babybus (Reply 49):
Not trying to challenge your comments at all, they are all as valid as anyone else's, but I think we need to point out that no one here on A.net knows what profits are made on any BA route.

Right. All I am trying to do is to get people to go on the record that they don't have actual data when they make these claims.

Quoting Richard28 (Reply 50):
I cant find the source, but remember reading how a lot of BA's corporate clients request the 744 on the JFK route... the 777 layout on BA in club is not held in as high regard.

Yet another piece of evidence that EWR is the "ugly bastard stepchild" airport.

Quoting washingtonian (Reply 53):
Btw, I know people don't like to acknowledge this, but 15X daily oneworld from JFK-LHR, 3X daily oneworld from EWR-LHR. Enough said about the JFK v. EWR battles....

Yeah, as I've said for years on here, EWR is viewed as a "second-class" airport compared with LGA/JFK by not only the airlines, but those living east of the Hudson River.
 
skipness1E
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RE: BA To Add 3rd Daily MIA & 8th Daily JFK

Thu Oct 13, 2011 5:16 pm

Quoting LHRFlyer (Reply 54):

Ah, here we have an example of this! How does this person know this? Are there facts to back this up? Does this person have access to BA's financial data?

I work with BA every day, they are a partner of ours. The people I know at BA consistently say this makes money, and good money at that. N62NA do you have any reason to doubt this is the case? All I can point to is colleagues in the know (I hope), a massive market presence to dominate the route and the huge traffic between London and New York.

Do you have reason to think that LHR-SEL or KUL would be a better plan than loss making JFK? I suspect you are arguing just to play devil's advocate because even in interviews I have gone to in consultancy, LON-NYC was understood to be a permium money maker. I have yet to see good reason to doubt them so on the balance of probabilities and on the evidence given above, please go with it or present a case against.
 
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N62NA
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RE: BA To Add 3rd Daily MIA & 8th Daily JFK

Thu Oct 13, 2011 5:25 pm

Quoting skipness1E (Reply 56):
The people I know at BA consistently say this makes money, and good money at that. N62NA do you have any reason to doubt this is the case?

I'm not just playing devil's advocate. It's just a simple question of are these assertions based on fact or conjecture? Too many times I've seen postings that Route X is profitable yet there isn't anything to back up the assertion, other than, "I know someone..." or just the "reputation" of the a.net member making the statement.
 
flymia
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RE: BA To Add 3rd Daily MIA & 8th Daily JFK

Thu Oct 13, 2011 9:58 pm

Quoting N62NA (Reply 57):
I'm not just playing devil's advocate. It's just a simple question of are these assertions based on fact or conjecture? Too many times I've seen postings that Route X is profitable yet there isn't anything to back up the assertion, other than, "I know someone..." or just the "reputation" of the a.net member making the statement.


I see where your coming from and I sometimes think about this also. But when airlines add frequency to flights like JFK-LHR at 8 daily! Why in the world would they be flying a flight 8 times a day if it did not make money? I think it is a very safe assertion to say LHR-BOS,JFK,EWR,MIA,ORD,LAX make money while flights like PHX or ATL might not make as much or might struggle sometimes.
"It was just four of us on the flight deck, trying to do our job" (Captain Al Haynes)
 
AirbusA6
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RE: BA To Add 3rd Daily MIA & 8th Daily JFK

Thu Oct 13, 2011 10:24 pm

At what point do AA drop their flights, and let BA do all the flying?

BA operate 8 744s between LHR and JFK, when AA only use 3 772s, would it be better for AA to codeshare on BA metal, who could run extra flights to use AA's slots. In return, BA should codeshare on AA''s flights from MAN, and together they could operate joint flights from the regions to ORD and JFK ?
it's the bus to stansted (now renamed National Express a6 to ruin my username)
 
MAH4546
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RE: BA To Add 3rd Daily MIA & 8th Daily JFK

Thu Oct 13, 2011 10:44 pm

Quoting AirbusA6 (Reply 59):
At what point do AA drop their flights, and let BA do all the flying?

BA operate 8 744s between LHR and JFK, when AA only use 3 772s, would it be better for AA to codeshare on BA metal, who could run extra flights to use AA's slots. In return, BA should codeshare on AA''s flights from MAN, and together they could operate joint flights from the regions to ORD and JFK ?

AA has four daily flights and at no point does it give drop all it's flights. There is value to having the brand, plus loyal AA customers would be furious if they lost use of their upgrade instruments on this route.
a.
 
David_itl
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RE: BA To Add 3rd Daily MIA & 8th Daily JFK

Thu Oct 13, 2011 10:56 pm

Quoting AirbusA6 (Reply 59):
In return, BA should codeshare on AA''s flights from MAN, and together they could operate joint flights from the regions to ORD and JFK ?

You mean like the BA1500 that arrives MAN at 07:45 from Chicago
 
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N62NA
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RE: BA To Add 3rd Daily MIA & 8th Daily JFK

Thu Oct 13, 2011 11:58 pm

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 60):
AA has four daily flights and at no point does it give drop all it's flights. There is value to having the brand, plus loyal AA customers would be furious if they lost use of their upgrade instruments on this route.

So what you're saying is that AAdvantage members don't get treated the same - with regards to upgrade chances - as BA Executive Club members on BA flights? (And I presume vice versa).
 
MAH4546
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RE: BA To Add 3rd Daily MIA & 8th Daily JFK

Fri Oct 14, 2011 12:07 am

Quoting N62NA (Reply 62):
So what you're saying is that AAdvantage members don't get treated the same - with regards to upgrade chances - as BA Executive Club members on BA flights? (And I presume vice versa).
AA Elites can't use their systemwide upgrades on BA. All AAdvantage members can upgrade on BA using AAdvantage miles.

[Edited 2011-10-13 17:08:19]
a.
 
crAAzy
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RE: BA To Add 3rd Daily MIA & 8th Daily JFK

Fri Oct 14, 2011 1:46 am

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 60):
AA has four daily flights and at no point does it give drop all it's flights. There is value to having the brand, plus loyal AA customers would be furious if they lost use of their upgrade instruments on this route.

True and very good points. However, let's face it. AA's product is inferior in every way to BA's product on these routes and most paying customers know it. It doesn't matter what class you're flying, BA's 4 class product is superior to AA's. The good news is that AA would only have to make a few small adjustments in it's Y and J products to narrow the gap for most flyers (e.g. free alcohol in coach and a next generation J seat).
 
commavia
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RE: BA To Add 3rd Daily MIA & 8th Daily JFK

Fri Oct 14, 2011 1:49 am

Quoting crAAzy (Reply 64):
However, let's face it. AA's product is inferior in every way to BA's product on these routes and most paying customers know it. It doesn't matter what class you're flying, BA's 4 class product is superior to AA's.

Ah - except for one very important aspect of "product" in which AA is most definitely not inferior to BA: frequent flyer program. AAdvantage is generally easier to earn and burn miles, and upgrades, than Executive Club, and for a U.S. (New York)-based traveler who flies domestically and to other markets besides just U.K./Europe, the ability to use AAdvantage upgrades (especially EXP SWUs) on flights is a massive perk that, as MAH alluded to, keeps many people on AA. In many cases these days, companies will only let employees book Business Class on international flights, but for top-tier frequent flyers, they can use their upgrades to sit in F on AA flights. But those upgrades are useless on BA.

Quoting crAAzy (Reply 64):
The good news is that AA would only have to make a few small adjustments in it's Y and J products to narrow the gap for most flyers (e.g. free alcohol in coach and a next generation J seat).

... and I suspect that those changes are likely to be coming in the not-too-distant future.
 
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RayChuang
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RE: BA To Add 3rd Daily MIA & 8th Daily JFK

Fri Oct 14, 2011 3:43 am

That many flights between JFK and LHR on BA is probably good reason why BA bought the A380-800. That way, BA could cut the number of flights between JFK and LHR by (maybe) two flights per day by using the A380 on this route twice a day.

Speaking of which, I wonder has BA considered modifying a few of their 777's into a plane with mostly premium-class seating so BA 178 (8 am New York time departure) and BA 174 (7:10 pm New York time departure) are aimed specifically for business travelers?
 
MAH4546
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RE: BA To Add 3rd Daily MIA & 8th Daily JFK

Fri Oct 14, 2011 3:54 am

Quoting crAAzy (Reply 64):
However, let's face it. AA's product is inferior in every way to BA's product on these routes and most paying customers know it. It doesn't matter what class you're flying, BA's 4 class product is superior to AA's. The good news is that AA would only have to make a few small adjustments in it's Y and J products to narrow the gap for most flyers (e.g. free alcohol in coach and a next generation J seat).

True, for now. But AA has begun upgrading the soft product and all signs indicate will introduce an all new product next year, starting with the 77W but rolling out to the 772 fleet, as well. And new coach product, too.
a.
 
astuteman
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RE: BA To Add 3rd Daily MIA & 8th Daily JFK

Fri Oct 14, 2011 4:05 am

Quoting N62NA (Reply 57):
I'm not just playing devil's advocate


All of BA's behaviours tell us that this is a lucrative route. If it wasn't, they would be doing something different.

And whilst anecdotal evidence may be just that, the fact that ALL the anecdotal evidence suggests that this route IS profitable for BA, and NONE of it says it isn't, IS pertinent.

Quoting RayChuang (Reply 66):
That way, BA could cut the number of flights between JFK and LHR by (maybe) two flights per day by using the A380 on this route twice a day.

Thing is, there's almost certainly timings in amongst those 8 departures that are more popular than others. And if those more popular timings are already sustaining a full 744, then I don't think it's too much of a stretch to suggest they might be prime candidates for an A380.

Conversely, there may be some timings that in all honesty don't usually fill the 744, and going forward, these might equally be candidates for a 773ER or an A350-1000 at some point in the future.

Of course, if passenger growth continues the way it has in the last decade, you never know, but the 2020's might see this route as 8 x A380 at some point....  

Rgds
 
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N62NA
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RE: BA To Add 3rd Daily MIA & 8th Daily JFK

Fri Oct 14, 2011 4:27 am

Quoting astuteman (Reply 68):
All of BA's behaviours tell us that this is a lucrative route. If it wasn't, they would be doing something different.

And whilst anecdotal evidence may be just that, the fact that ALL the anecdotal evidence suggests that this route IS profitable for BA, and NONE of it says it isn't, IS pertinent.

Quite "astute" of you.  

BUT... it would be nice to know for sure.  
 
vv701
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RE: BA To Add 3rd Daily MIA & 8th Daily JFK

Fri Oct 14, 2011 12:03 pm

In discussing the types of aircraft used or not used on the LHR-JFK route it is pertinent to remember the cabin configurations of the aircraft.

BA primarily operates "Hi J" 744s between LHR and JFK. They are configured for up to 291 passengers (F14 / J70 / W30 / Y177).

Currently (until 29 October) one rotation (BA179/182) is operated by a 77W. It is configured for up to 297 passengers (F14 / J56 / W44 / Y183).

BA could alternatively operate their 772 aircraft. Their 4-class 772s are variously configured for up to 216 passengers (772A) (F17 / J48 / W24 / Y127), up to 219 passengers (772ER RR powered) (F12 / J48 / W32 / Y127) or 224 passengers (772ER GE powered) (F14 / J48 / W40 / Y122).

AA operates 772s. They are configured for up to 243 passengers (F16 / J37 / Y190).

Speculation as to whether BA would operate the 380 between JFK and LHR is interesting. However I think that we will have a better idea as to whether this is likely once we know how BA will configure the cabins of what currently will be a relatively small fleet.

BA may configure their 380s with a relatively high proportion of Y Class seats to operate them on what are currently "Mid J" 744 routes. If they do it is unlikely that they will be scheduled to operate to JFK.

BA may certainly choose to use their 380 fleet to provide increased capacity on relatively high frequency routes like LHR-JFK. However if that happens I cannot see them consolidating flights. Two 744s - or at least the passengers on two relatively full 744s - are probably not all going to fit into one 380. So consolidating flights in this way is likely to reduce total route capacity and on a route where frequency appears to be important.

Alternatively BA may choose to configure their 380s to operate on routes where a single daily 744 flight is no l.onger large enough to meet demand. Clearly substituting a 380 instead of a 772 plus either a 763 or a 787 would be preferable economically. This would be particularly true on routes where frequency offers no commercial advantage.

The current use of a 77W for the LHR 1800 hr departure to JFK may suggest a higher demand for W and/or Y class seats at that time. Equally there might then be a lower demand from J Class passengers . However either of these possibilities could be primarily driven by the return flight. It, BA182, is the last departure of the day from JFK scheduled at 2245.

Similarly the timing of AA's flight departures from LHR at 1055, 1400, 1700 and 1900 could be to meet a higher demand for Y Class seats or the demand from AA Elites wanting to use their upgrades.

It is also worth remembering that all the BA flights on the JFK-LHR route, like all their North Atlantic flights are also AA and IB code share flights. Similarly all the flights on AA metal also carry BA and IB flight codes. So, for example, BA175 is also AA6140 and IB4615 while AA101 also carries the BA1516 and IB4219 codes. Here, as an aside, it is also worth noting that BA metal flights between LHR and Canada are also AA (but not IB) code share flights. So, for example, BA85 (LHR-YVR) is also AA6219.

It is also my belief - please correct me if I am wrong here - that AA and BA share all costs and all revenues on the JFK-LHR route and other routes between the UK and USA. I deduced this from last year's BA Investors' Day Presentation. When displaying Slide 105 here:

http://media.corporate-ir.net/media_.../01_ID_2010_Full_presentations.pdf

Willie Walsh said that the BA experience with the Joint Services Agreement (JSA) with QF over more than 10 years meant that AA/BA had an operational advantage over other trans-Atlantic ATI alliances in implementing their ATI Alliance. I - correctly or incorrectly - took this to mean that the AA/BA agreement is similar to the BA/QF JSA. That agreement requires that all revenues and costs on all flights by BA and QF linking Australia and Europe are shared irrespective of whose metal operates some or all of those flights.
 
sam1987
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RE: BA To Add 3rd Daily MIA & 8th Daily JFK

Fri Oct 14, 2011 6:40 pm

Quoting VV701 (Reply 70):
In discussing the types of aircraft used or not used on the LHR-JFK route it is pertinent to remember the cabin configurations of the aircraft.

Indeed.

I think there are some other valid points to be made when it comes to choosing a particular aircraft for a route.

Take fuel burn, for example. Whilst fuel is so expensive, it makes sense to utilise inefficient aircraft to "shorter" long haul routes such as LHR to JFK. Then you can send the 773s to NRT and HKG.
Next flights: LGW-LBA-LGW, LHR-SIN-SYD, SYD-BKK-LHR, LGW-GRO, GRO-CIA, CIA-MAD, MAD-LGW
 
vv701
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RE: BA To Add 3rd Daily MIA & 8th Daily JFK

Fri Oct 14, 2011 7:10 pm

Quoting sam1987 (Reply 71):
Take fuel burn, for example. Whilst fuel is so expensive, it makes sense to utilise inefficient aircraft to "shorter" long haul routes such as LHR to JFK. Then you can send the 773s to NRT and HKG.

What is more the capital cost of operating the older, less fuel efficient aircraft is much lower.

There are two reasons for this.

First the cost of BA's initial August 1986 744 order for sixteen aircraft (with options on a further 12) was revealed at the time as $25 million a frame. Compare that with the $200 million plus per frame today for an equivalent aircraft.

Second BA's policy is to depreciate their long-haul aircraft to a residual (break-up?) value over twenty years. So with their nineteenth 744 (G-BNLT) having been delivered more than twenty years ago on 19 March 1991, they have a significant sized operational fleet of fully depreciated 744s. Indeed it is quite probable that the additional fuel cost of flying these relatively inefficient aircraft for around 4,400 hours per year (which is close to the average for the 14 BA 744s for which I have 2010 data) is lower than the annual depreciation or lease cost of, for example, one of their new 77Ws.
 
boysteve
Posts: 890
Joined: Sun Apr 25, 2004 7:02 am

RE: BA To Add 3rd Daily MIA & 8th Daily JFK

Sat Oct 15, 2011 8:37 am

Quoting UAL777UK (Reply 45):
Quoting santos (Thread starter):
BA178 JFK0800 – 1940LHR 744 D

Could BA not make this departure from JFK a little later so you dont have to get up silly o'clock state side , say depart at 9.30/10?

Probably becasue the aircraft is then used in BA's 22:00 long haul departure wave
 
lhr380
Posts: 2453
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RE: BA To Add 3rd Daily MIA & 8th Daily JFK

Sat Oct 15, 2011 8:54 am

Quoting RayChuang (Reply 66):
That many flights between JFK and LHR on BA is probably good reason why BA bought the A380-800. That way, BA could cut the number of flights between JFK and LHR by (maybe) two flights per day by using the A380 on this route twice a day.

Never will happen.

Frequency is key, not capacity. Every flight gets inbound customers from all over the world, be it from JNB CPT LOS ABV and Euro and domestic locations. The JFKs are timed to take advantage of this. If it suddenly goes down to 2 flights a day on a 380, not only is that a MASSIVE capacity cut, what would keep a customer flying thru LHR when they have a 10 hour wait till the next BA flight to JFK when it is only a hour or so at the moment.
(The views on this site are my own and no one elses)
 
David_itl
Posts: 6399
Joined: Wed Jun 27, 2001 7:39 am

RE: BA To Add 3rd Daily MIA & 8th Daily JFK

Sat Oct 15, 2011 12:22 pm

Quoting lhr380 (Reply 74):
it suddenly goes down to 2 flights a day on a 380,

Ray was saying dropping by 2 per day not going to 2 a day....bit of a difference!

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