Good Evening All,

Although this may not be the "biggest" news, I thought i'd share since it has to do with my home town.

Flying in and out of Timmins is not always the easiest, or any type of travel that is. Air Canada Jazz has always been the main airline to provide services from the south (. (Yes I know JetGo did before, but that only lasted a couple months).

Now with Porter coming into the scene, I think they really hit the sweet spot. Timmins being a large "Quebec/French" community, Porter would ultimately allow connections onward to YUL and YQB via YTZ. I really look forward to seeing what AC will do about this.

Enough is enough, Glad to see that lower priced tickets will be available! Congrats Porter, and a warm welcome!

Local News Artical

BTW: did you know CEO Robert Deluce of porter is from Timmins? His family is well known in our community.

Tinosky,

[Edited 2011-10-13 19:35:48]

Hope they last longer in Timmins than JetsGo did...

I wonder if Jazz CRJs will suddenly make a comeback into YTS?   

Great news for both Timmins and PD!

Quoting NorthStarDC4M (Reply 1): I wonder if Jazz CRJs will suddenly make a comeback into YTS?

With PD offering base fares as low as $109 compared to AC's $311, looks like the network planning department over at AC is going to have to do some serious restructuring on this route! I'm thinking AC's only real competitive advantage in YTS is frequency and connection to overseas destinations.

Either way, I look forward to seeing how this plays out!   

Are they starting at a leisurely 12X daily (like they do seemingly everywhere...."Hmmmm, where to ply our excess planes?") or a more pedestrian 1 daily or two?

Quoting cyeg66 (Reply 3): Are they starting at a leisurely 12X daily (like they do seemingly everywhere...."Hmmmm, where to ply our excess planes?") or a more pedestrian 1 daily or two?

Please state an example of how PD does that and on what routes.

Quoting cyeg66 (Reply 3):

The article indicates they will be doing 3X daily.

Quoting WestJet747 (Reply 2): I wonder if Jazz CRJs will suddenly make a comeback into YTS?

Quoting cyeg66 (Reply 3): With PD offering base fares as low as $109 compared to AC's $311, looks like the network planning department over at AC is going to have to do some serious restructuring on this route! I'm thinking AC's only real competitive advantage in YTS is frequency and connection to overseas destinations.

I checked the shedz for AC. (YYZ - YTS). they have 2 daily Q400's and the rest are a mix of 100/300 versions.

Looks like AC is already preparing.

Tinosky,

and Burlington, Vermont.

Quoting Tinosky (Reply 6): I checked the shedz for AC. (YYZ - YTS). they have 2 daily Q400's and the rest are a mix of 100/300 versions. Looks like AC is already preparing.

But I think with the Jazz order for 15 Q400s (and 15 more on option) that a fair bit of the regional flying out of YYZ was going t ogo to Q400s over CRJs in any event. Especially if they pick up the options.

Quoting Tinosky (Reply 6): I checked the shedz for AC. (YYZ - YTS). they have 2 daily Q400's and the rest are a mix of 100/300 versions. Looks like AC is already preparing.

The Q400s were on the sked for YTS starting in jan for awhile, I don't think the PD announcement changed anything yet.

Still, will take me back to the days of Air Ontario 5x daily -300s vs Canadian Partner ATRs or EMB-120s 4x... Then of course CP gave up, dropped to Jetstream 31s 3x and finally ATRs on YYZ-YSB-YTS... and eventually just left.

PD will take delivery of their 25th Q400 in December, so this new route will keep one a/c busy. A 26th is due in spring 2012.

PD also announced winter service to Burlington VT 2x per week catering to ski crowd to begin in Dec.

Quoting fly2yyz (Reply 4): Please state an example of how PD does that and on what routes.

From a launch of a route, the closest example I can come up with would be EWR's 7x daily launch back in 2008.

If I'm not mistaken, YOW started with 6 before being quickly upped to 10. YUL started similarly with 6 before being pushed to 9. But I think from the launch of a route, EWR was the highest.

Since EWR, we've seen some absolutely massive new route launches... YTM and MYR a couple of times a week, YQB, MDW, BOS, YQT, YQG each at 3x daily. YSB started with a single daily, while YAM started with two. Both of the latter have since been increased up to 3x daily each.

At present, only two routes are flown in excess of twelve daily trips - YUL and YOW from YTZ. EWR is close with 11, but the rest are 6 or fewer.

Quoting aamd11 (Reply 11): At present, only two routes are flown in excess of twelve daily trips - YUL and YOW from YTZ. EWR is close with 11, but the rest are 6 or fewer.

And that ramp up of flights makes sense, these are/were the bread and butter routes for PD while everything else they are building up. I look forward to AC ramping up frequency with CRJs and Q400s to the point that PD is going to have to cancel service....typical AC.

Quoting fly2yyz (Reply 12):

I have no doubt Porter will leave a permanent mark in Timmins. Look what they have done to Thunder Bay, Sault Ste. Marie, and Sudbury.

Good riddance AC

I feel i do have to point out that Timmins is a very... unusual market.

Just some examples of other airlines trying to compete in YTO-YTS:

Royal, flights cancled before they began, total bookings... 13 (thats 13 TOTAL not 13 per flight) (only 1x weekly mind you, 727)
JetsGo, average load... 12% (daily, but QK struck back with 4x CRJs daily)
Commerical Aviation (YTS-YTZ, J31) average number of pax per flight, 1 (shrug?)
Canadian Partner, Started 5x ATR42/Dash 8, went to 4x ATR/Dash 8, then 4X EMB-120, then 3x J31, then 3x YTS-YSB-YYZ ATR, then gone. (no advantage over AC)

Last airline that managed to make a go of YTS-YYZ besides AC/GX/QK was Austin Airways... oh! Deluce!  

Flights are loaded and available for booking.

YTZ-YTS (weekday)
PD653 STD 0835 STA 1000
PD655 STD 1555 STA 1720
PD657 STD 2140 STA 2305

YTS-YTZ (weekday)
PD652 STD 0625 STA 0750
PD654 STD 1100 STA 1225
PD656 STD 1800 STA 1925

One trip each direction on Saturdays, and two on Sundays.

Also loaded is the new YTZ-BTV service that was announced alongside YTS:

Thursday
PD987 YTZBTV STD 1600 STA 1710
PD988 BTVYTZ STA 1810 STA 1930

Sunday
PD987 YTZBTV STD 1730 STA 1840
PD988 BTVYTZ STA 1940 STA 2100

Connections are bookable from YTS.  

Quoting FoxTwo (Reply 13): Good riddance AC

You mean the only airline that has had reliable and continuous service to YTS for 60+ years?

Quoting longhauler (Reply 16):

The only airline which has successfully ripped people off for 60+ years? Sure. Call it what you want. Reliable? They tend to overbook somewhat frequently. I worked in and around YTS all summer, and a good # of residents were talking about Porter within the new year. The Air Creebec guys had quite a lot to say about the AC fare structure as well 

Quoting cyeg66 (Reply 3): Are they starting at a leisurely 12X daily (like they do seemingly everywhere...."Hmmmm, where to ply our excess planes?") or a more pedestrian 1 daily or two?

They must be doing something right....So far this year, load factor up, revenue up also......

https://www.flyporter.com/About/News-Release-Details?id=165&culture=en-CA

Thenoflyzone

Quoting WestJet747 (Reply 2): I'm thinking AC's only real competitive advantage in YTS is frequency and connection to overseas destinations.

It seems to me more like there are now two airlines flying to two different destinations.
What I mean is if you are direct to and from the city of Toronto, then PD is really going to be the only airline serving Timmins.
If you are coming through the airport at YYZ, then you still have only one airline serving YTS (AC).
Regardless of how you got to YYZ, it won't normally be justifiable either in time or money to take a cab down to the island to transfer to PD (except for an a.nut who wanted to try PD - I would). Even if the fare is a LOT lower, the hotel will cost more if you get stuck in traffic...
Conversly, if you are downtown, only the most diehard Aeroplan points collecter would think it worth it to go out to YYZ when PD is right there (exception might be the brainwashed who think props = old and dangerous if AC puts RJ's back on the YYZ-YTS route).
As for the traffic types. Timmins has always been about mining, and so has Bay Street (Toronto financial centre). So there is a lot of to and fro on that route (whenever I take it, I always run into someone I have worked with before somewhere else in the world). So the 'downtown' portion of that travel will likely move to PD pretty quickly. It will add some (not sure how much) additional same day out and back if times are convenient enough for corporate types to get from downtown to Timmins without the hassles of YYZ.
For VFR traffic - again two different destinations...downtown if going to Toronto, or YYZ if going beyond (or to somewhere west of the city). Same with the remote site workers who live throughout the country - when they travel, they won't take PD if they need to connect to YYT or YVR (I know people that do those).

My guess / estimate...unless AC puts on some flights YTZ-YTS, it 'should' turn out to look like YTS has two airlines serving two different destinations, with the odd determined leaker who has motivations other than time and efficiency.. the same ones who voluntarily take 'different airport' connections in New York for example.

Quoting yyz717 (Reply 10): PD will take delivery of their 25th Q400 in December, so this new route will keep one a/c busy. A 26th is due in spring 2012.

I've heard that the frames are ahead of schedule - #25 might arrive in November, and there's a chance #26 will arrive before year's end. They were originally slated for December and April. Not sure how valid that is, though - has anyone not taken some Q400 slots that would allow PD's frames to be moved up the list?

Quoting BE77 (Reply 19): unless AC puts on some flights YTZ-YTS

Can't see them pulling down their 15x daily YUL to be able to serve YTS... I'm sure if they were to pull YUL down for anything, it'd be New York or perhaps Ottawa. Really can't see YTS being a priority for AC from YTZ.

Quoting aamd11 (Reply 20): Really can't see YTS being a priority for AC from YTZ.

Nor would I if they are slot limited...I am not aware of what AC is allowed to do out of the Island, and that comment was on the throry they could go head to head. Having said that, if they thought they could run a full flight to YTS at high yields, then it could change the priority (also in theory). Of course, theory and $1.70 + GST get's me a cup of Tim's.

Quoting BE77 (Reply 21): I am not aware of what AC is allowed to do out of the Island,

They can fly anywhere they want with their 30 daily slots - providing it's practical to do so from the current facility (ie. can you launch a Q400 that far from that runway with a meaningful load, and for transborder destinations are there customs facilities available and do you have slots/approval to fly there etc).

Currently, they're using all 30 slots to operate 15x daily YUL flights.

Porter has control of the other 172 of the airport's 202 slots (giving them up to 86 daily departures from YTZ).

Quoting FoxTwo (Reply 17): The only airline which has successfully ripped people off for 60+ years? Sure. Call it what you want. Reliable? They tend to overbook somewhat frequently. I worked in and around YTS all summer, and a good # of residents were talking about Porter within the new year. The Air Creebec guys had quite a lot to say about the AC fare structure as well

Will laugh my A$$ off when u need to get to western Canada.. are you going to hop scotch across ON on Bearskin and AirCreebec to connect in YQT onto a WS flight that stops a dozen times to get you to Vancouver to save you a few hundres clams.. time is money!! lmao..
Yes competition is good, but you dont need to dis a company that has served your community for decades on a nominal profit margin making fare.

You could live in Clyde River NU and pay 4k on an ATR to get you to Iqaluit!!

Quoting ykaops (Reply 23): Will laugh my A$$ off when u need to get to western Canada.. are you going to hop scotch across ON on Bearskin and AirCreebec to connect in YQT onto a WS flight that stops a dozen times to get you to Vancouver to save you a few hundres clams.. time is money!! lmao.. Yes competition is good, but you dont need to dis a company that has served your community for decades on a nominal profit margin making fare.

WS flies direct from Toronto to Vancouver, just like AC, and AC would connect through Toronto, just like WS.

Porter prices will be 1/3 of what AC charges from Timmons to Toronto, and what do you want to bet that AC somehow manages to make money matching Porter's fares.

Porter passengers would have to take a train and a bus to transit from YTZ to YYZ but that would be worth a couple of hundred bucks to me. At worst, it's a 50 buck cab ride. Changing planes in Pearson can be almost as much of a hassle.

Loyalty to AC is one thing...but it's disingenuous to pretend that they don't have a long and sordid history of ripping of passengers in communities where they have a monopoly.

Quoting JoeCanuck (Reply 24): WS flies direct from Toronto to Vancouver, just like AC, and AC would connect through Toronto, just like WS. Porter prices will be 1/3 of what AC charges from Timmons to Toronto, and what do you want to bet that AC somehow manages to make money matching Porter's fares. Porter passengers would have to take a train and a bus to transit from YTZ to YYZ but that would be worth a couple of hundred bucks to me. At worst, it's a 50 buck cab ride. Changing planes in Pearson can be almost as much of a hassle.

Easier option:

YTS-YTZ PD
YTZ-YQT PD
YQT-YWG-west WS

The connections even work for a morning flight... though the one in YQT is tight.

Also i don't know what good Creebec would do you to get to Vancouver from Timmins... unless you want to take the longest route to get to Montreal possible...

Quoting JoeCanuck (Reply 24): Loyalty to AC is one thing...but it's disingenuous to pretend that they don't have a long and sordid history of ripping of passengers in communities where they have a monopoly.

Historically, it is quite the opposite. When a government airline, AC could not charge more for flights where they had a monopoly vice one where they did not. By "protecting" AC on profitable routes, AC was mandated to maintain unprofitable routes. Trust me YTS was NOT profitable when AC had 4 DC-9 round trips a day!

However, since becoming a public, non-government company, normal market forces prevail. And in any market, airline or not, it would be folly not to capitalize on a monopoly. For example look at hotel prices in Iqaluit, or the price of a hamburger in Resolute Bay.

When prices become high though, a company opens themselves up to competition. Frankly, if YTS-YYZ prices are so high, I am surprised there is not more competition. As noted above, many airlines have come and gone on that route, but only one has lasted. That is probably for a reason.

If Porter provides a competitive product at a fair price, they will prevail ... normal market forces. If AC wants to stay on that route, they will be competitive ... normal market forces. However, every time AC pulls out of a route where they are the only carrier, the communities affected cry foul, and AC is usually forced to stay in an unprofitable route .... not normal market forces, but that is just Canada.

My guess is that AC has been able to maintain the route, as it is profitable with BOTH local and connecting traffic. With only one or the other, the route may well not be profitable. Namely AC will no longer carry local traffic, Porter does not carry traffic connecting further than Ontario ... and the result may be that both airlines pull out, leaving no service.

As far as loyalty goes, there is none. As survey after survey shows, and as has been demonstrated here, it is all about price and nothing else.

Having flown onboard Porter a few times now and having enjoyed their brand it is nice to see them expanding once again, especially into a market served by a monopoly (YTS - AC) and with no competition (BTV). It's interesting to watch their growth, and nice to see them taking risks on routes like BTV, MYR and Tremblant. They've developed quite a diverse network now, and I wonder how long it will be until they announce further US expansion. On that note does anyone know of the status of any US Customs pre-clearance facility at the Island?

Best of luck to Porter on these new routes, growth in this industry is great as it means more jobs and for a guy like me, the chance to move up the career ladder. Now I'll keep my fingers crossed that they'll magically announce a CYTZ-CYXL route soon so I can avoid the drive to YQT when I need to fly home hehehe. I won't hold my breath for that one, however.

Congrats Porter!

Jeremy

Am I the only one getting the impression that the best move Porter could make in the next few years might be to buy Bearskin and start to grab things not centred on YTZ with the smaller aircraft it would get them?

I would doubt Porter would have any interest in getting into 704 operations, not to mention Bearskin is owned by EIF (who also own Perimeter and Calm Air) and have definitely carved out their own special niche which focuses on serving smaller communities in Northern Ontario on milk-run type routes where at some stops only 1 or 2 pax typically get on or off. Stranger things have happened but the Porter business model of serving business travellers in major cities doesn't quite mesh well with Bearskin's concept of serving smaller communities and connecting them to their respective regional centers.

Interesting to see Bearskin's expansion out of CYKF to YOW and YUL, I wonder if they will try to focus more on Southern Ontario.

So, in my opinion, don't expect Porter to try and grow by picking up smaller 704 carriers, if anything they might try to grow their business by perhaps providing Tier 2 lift to larger carriers, but up to this point that hasn't been their business model either (business plans can change though).

Jeremy

Quoting longhauler (Reply 26): However, every time AC pulls out of a route where they are the only carrier, the communities affected cry foul, and AC is usually forced to stay in an unprofitable route .

When has this happened in the last 25 years? AC cannot be forced to fly any route -- and this has been the case for decades.

Quoting longhauler (Reply 26): As far as loyalty goes, there is none. As survey after survey shows, and as has been demonstrated here, it is all about price and nothing else.

AC Aeroplan has alot of loyalty that transcends price.

I wonder if Porter has any plans to expand out west, perhaps set up a hub in Calgary.

Quoting yyz717 (Reply 30): AC Aeroplan has alot of loyalty that transcends price.

Aeroplan has one of the most generous upgrade policies of any plan I've used. When I was working overseas, two round trips from YYC to DXB would net enough points to get upgrade coupons, and after that, we always got enough miles so we never ran out of coupons.

I don't know how well the plan works domestically but internationally, it is, (or was), more generous than the Lufthansa, SIA and United plans in Star Alliance.

Story today on Boston.com regarding their service:

Carrier goes retro, looks ahead

By Katie Johnston
Globe Staff / October 18, 2011

TORONTO - On Porter Airlines, flight attendants wear pillbox hats and serve complimentary Canadian microbrews in real glasses. They hand out free snacks, including muffins in the morning and chicken flatbread sandwiches in the afternoon.

In the airline’s lounge at Billy Bishop Toronto City Airport, passengers use sleek Apple computers provided by the airline in the business center, help themselves to lattes and cappuccinos in heated mugs, and sit in chairs lit by individual lamps.

Quoting yyz717 (Reply 30): When has this happened in the last 25 years? AC cannot be forced to fly any route -- and this has been the case for decades.

Probably the best recent example is YYT-LHR. And it still goes on.

There is no way that maintaining 2 ETOPS120 A319s for the sole purpose of carrying 50 or so passengers between the two cities is profitable. But ... every time AC states a desire to pull out, the editorials on the rock are astounding. Usually starting with "My tax dollars paid for this airline, I demand that it fly across the ocean from here."

Quoting yyz717 (Reply 30): AC Aeroplan has alot of loyalty that transcends price.

Only if the purchaser is not paying for the ticket.

The latest survey indicates that when the purchaser is actually paying for the ticket, price is the number one reason for choosing a particular flight. If prices are the same, or if the purchaser is not paying for the ticket, then FF awards become a factor.

Quoting rob2507 (Reply 32): Story today on Boston.com regarding their service:

I love hearing stories about Porter's service. To date, no "boutique airline" has ever been successful. I have always maintained that if Porter is able to be profitable, while maintaining a high standard of service, and while not abusing their monopoly ... then they should be allowed to fly out of YTZ alone without any other airline trying to run them under.

The only financial results the public have ever heard about Porter have not been favourable. Perhaps that will change with this continued expansion.

Quoting C-GRYK (Reply 27): They've developed quite a diverse network now, and I wonder how long it will be until they announce further US expansion.

Hotly tipped to begin a new US Service early next summer. Philadelphia and Washington are the favourites. Deluce has been saying as much for a year or more now. With two new planes to be delivered in the next couple of months, and the addition of 16x daily slots to their books, there will almost certainly be a new destination after YTS starts - and YTS completes their planned services into Ontario...

If it is Washington, it'll almost certainly be IAD as there's no sign of pre-clearance at YTZ any time soon, which would rule out DCA.

Does anyone have an idea of what kind of payload they could get to Winnipeg with the Q400s? Would seem to make a lot of sense from a network perspective if they could have anything like a useful load.

Quoting JoeCanuck (Reply 31): Aeroplan has one of the most generous upgrade policies of any plan I've used.

Aeroplan's upgrade scheme is quite good, but their surcharges on award tickets are outrageous.

Quoting aamd11 (Reply 35): Hotly tipped to begin a new US Service early next summer. Philadelphia and Washington are the favourites. Deluce has been saying as much for a year or more now. With two new planes to be delivered in the next couple of months, and the addition of 16x daily slots to their books, there will almost certainly be a new destination

16X daily (or at least 12X) into IAD. That's my guess.    Come on, let's all cheer for the little guy!

Quoting aamd11 (Reply 35): If it is Washington, it'll almost certainly be IAD as there's no sign of pre-clearance at YTZ any time soon, which would rule out DCA

Too bad. It's great that they're expanding their route network, but flying into DCA would really keep with their brand of being more business-centric.

Quoting rob2507 (Reply 32): Story today on Boston.com regarding their service: Carrier goes retro, looks ahead

Great article! Thanks for posting!

Quoting N1120A (Reply 37): Aeroplan's upgrade scheme is quite good, but their surcharges on award tickets are outrageous.

True. There's no such thing as a cheap ride.

Quoting Bureaucromancer (Reply 36): Does anyone have an idea of what kind of payload they could get to Winnipeg with the Q400s?

Out of YTZ, not very useful load at all. YQT does occasionally suffer payload restrictions in the Summer and Winter for various reasons - occasionally requiring payload to be left behind or tech stops to be made (YSB or YAM). YTZ-YHZ - which is run for the Christmas period - is a bit of a stretch from YTZ, and is 789 miles... to YWG's 945 miles...

However, there's the occasional rumour about YWG being added as a tag on to the YQT service... that would permit a useful load to be carried. A tag on wouldn't be out of place in Porter's network, with YYT already being served this way.

Quoting WestJet747 (Reply 39): Too bad. It's great that they're expanding their route network, but flying into DCA would really keep with their brand of being more business-centric.

DCA - and LGA in New York - are the sought-after destinations. I can definitely see them adding LGA if pre-clearance were obtained at YTZ. Again, Deluce has said that he would love to serve LGA, in addition to EWR... In the case of DCA, I can't imagine they'd run IAD and DCA at the same time, so I guess DCA might enter the network if YTZ gets pre-clearance and if Porter can obtain enough slots at the right times to operate the desired schedule/frequency there...

Quoting longhauler (Reply 26): However, every time AC pulls out of a route where they are the only carrier, the communities affected cry foul, and AC is usually forced to stay in an unprofitable route .... not normal market forces, but that is just Canada.

When was the last time the government forced AC to operate an unprofitable domestic route? After the CP/AC merger, if memory correct, AC was restricted from withdrawing service from any domestic points then being served for something like 3 years, but after that period expired (at least 7 years ago) there have been no restrictions.

I agree that a tag on for YWG could work, was just sort of hoping it wasn't neccessary given the amount of competition and that this really is starting to get beyond where the turboprops remain competitive time wise. I do wonder though whether it might be better as a continuation from Sault Ste. Marie rather than Thunder Bay. Fewer payload problems, no less direct and a smaller destination (don't know how the load factors are, but I would assume there is more traffic to YQT than YAM).

They need another 1000' of runway at YTZ.