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britannia191a
Topic Author
Posts: 229
Joined: Tue Nov 02, 2004 2:31 am

Emergency: AF306 180deg Over Birmingham

Mon Oct 17, 2011 10:09 am

AF306 CDG-SEA A330 F-GZCD has done a 180deg turn over the BHX area descending looks like it is going into LHR, this is is current and is on Flightradar24

[Edited 2011-10-17 03:12:25]
 
britannia191a
Topic Author
Posts: 229
Joined: Tue Nov 02, 2004 2:31 am

RE: Emergency: AF306 180deg Over Birmingham

Mon Oct 17, 2011 10:20 am

Now heading over the English Channel at FL100 looks to be returning to CDG at low Altitude. Would be interested to know cause of 7700 emergency
 
lhr380
Posts: 2453
Joined: Thu Jan 15, 2009 5:39 pm

RE: Emergency: AF306 180deg Over Birmingham

Mon Oct 17, 2011 10:22 am

Very low Alt to be crossing the channel?
(The views on this site are my own and no one elses)
 
Richie72
Posts: 96
Joined: Sun Sep 02, 2007 5:02 am

RE: Emergency: AF306 180deg Over Birmingham

Mon Oct 17, 2011 10:23 am

looks like its heading back toward France at low altitude FL100 (sorry duplicate replies )

[Edited 2011-10-17 03:24:28]
 
vv701
Posts: 5895
Joined: Fri Aug 19, 2005 10:54 am

RE: Emergency: AF306 180deg Over Birmingham

Mon Oct 17, 2011 10:24 am

Quoting britannia191a (Reply 1):
Now heading over the English Channel at FL100 looks to be returning to CDG at low Altitude. Would be interested to know cause of 7700 emergency

FL100 suggests it might be a pressurisatiuon problem.
 
wilco737
Posts: 7275
Joined: Sun Jun 20, 2004 12:21 am

RE: Emergency: AF306 180deg Over Birmingham

Mon Oct 17, 2011 10:25 am

Quoting VV701 (Reply 4):
FL100 suggests it might be a pressurisatiuon problem.

Yes, came to my mind as well. Flying at that level is typical for it.

wilco737
  
 
Summa767
Posts: 1847
Joined: Thu Mar 11, 2004 1:30 am

RE: Emergency: AF306 180deg Over Birmingham

Mon Oct 17, 2011 10:25 am

Quoting lhr380 (Reply 2):
Very low Alt to be crossing the channel?

Pressurisation, windshield issues?
 
wilco737
Posts: 7275
Joined: Sun Jun 20, 2004 12:21 am

RE: Emergency: AF306 180deg Over Birmingham

Mon Oct 17, 2011 10:28 am

Quoting lhr380 (Reply 2):
Very low Alt to be crossing the channel?

Why very low? I am sure there are no mountains in the channel higher than 10,000 feet... And over France you are safe at 10,000 feet as well. And if you have press problems, then you should fly at 10,000 feet.

wilco737
  
 
LGWflyer
Posts: 2233
Joined: Sat Mar 19, 2011 6:38 pm

RE: Emergency: AF306 180deg Over Birmingham

Mon Oct 17, 2011 10:40 am

Almost in CDG, a hopefully very safe return!
3 words... I Love Aviation!!!
 
rfields5421
Posts: 6223
Joined: Thu Jul 19, 2007 12:45 am

RE: Emergency: AF306 180deg Over Birmingham

Mon Oct 17, 2011 12:26 pm

Quoting wilco737 (Reply 7):
Why very low?

10,000 ft is a very inefficient altitude for a large jet. It also puts the jet into airspace with much slower prop traffic.

Normally when we see a jet at 10,000 ft, it is unable to maintain pressurization, thus the altitude is kept that low.

But it might also have been to increase the fuel burn on the return to CDG. A few hundred miles at that altitude would burn a lot of fuel, and make the landing at CDG lighter. I don't know the MTOW or MLW of the A330 series, but that is also a possibility. It is very seldom done, but not unheard of.

The return to CDG rather than landing at LHR indicates a maintenance issue - not safety of flight critical, but sufficient to prevent a trans-atlantic flight. Returning to the main base indicates they want the plane where extensive maintenance is available.
Not all who wander are lost.
 
wilco737
Posts: 7275
Joined: Sun Jun 20, 2004 12:21 am

RE: Emergency: AF306 180deg Over Birmingham

Mon Oct 17, 2011 12:39 pm

Quoting rfields5421 (Reply 9):
10,000 ft is a very inefficient altitude for a large jet. It also puts the jet into airspace with much slower prop traffic.

Normally when we see a jet at 10,000 ft, it is unable to maintain pressurization, thus the altitude is kept that low.

I know. I am FO on B744.

Sure is 10,000 feet inefficient. But after an emergency descent due to pressurization problems, you fly at FL100 until you reach an alternate airport. If terrain is a factor, then you have to fly higher, but then you have to use oxygen.

wilco737
  
 
tcasalert
Posts: 448
Joined: Mon Jul 11, 2011 11:34 am

RE: Emergency: AF306 180deg Over Birmingham

Mon Oct 17, 2011 12:40 pm

Quoting rfields5421 (Reply 9):
Quoting wilco737 (Reply 7):
Why very low?

10,000 ft is a very inefficient altitude for a large jet. It also puts the jet into airspace with much slower prop traffic.

   Sorry for pointing this out but you do realise you're talking to a 747 pilot here so he probably knows that  
Next flight: Feb 2012 - BHX-CPH-BHX - SK MD87 / CRJ900
 
eugegall
Posts: 64
Joined: Sun Dec 27, 2009 9:13 pm

RE: Emergency: AF306 180deg Over Birmingham

Mon Oct 17, 2011 3:03 pm

Well I've flown a PA28 from London to Le Touquet and i managed a height of 8000ft.

Not great clearance with VFR traffic to be honest. I know some prop aircraft to have gone higher too.
 
je89_w
Posts: 2070
Joined: Fri Mar 01, 2002 1:29 pm

RE: Emergency: AF306 180deg Over Birmingham

Mon Oct 17, 2011 3:16 pm

Quoting eugegall (Reply 12):
I know some prop aircraft to have gone higher too.

Easily. In places like Northern Arizona, seeing VFR traffic flying at altitudes above 10,000 feet is very common, especially considering the terrain altitude of that area. Now add the hot Arizona heat and a decent load in a -172, then getting up to 11,500 feet might be a bit interesting!  
 
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SOBHI51
Posts: 3947
Joined: Wed Jun 04, 2003 1:32 pm

RE: Emergency: AF306 180deg Over Birmingham

Mon Oct 17, 2011 3:52 pm

Quoting wilco737 (Reply 7):
I am sure there are no mountains in the channel higher than 10,000 feet

Mountains in the channel???  
I am against any terrorist acts committed under the name of Islam
 
gators312
Posts: 64
Joined: Wed Jul 20, 2011 3:56 am

RE: Emergency: AF306 180deg Over Birmingham

Mon Oct 17, 2011 3:55 pm

Quoting SOBHI51 (Reply 14):
Mountains in the channel???  

Sarcasm?   
 
LTC8K6
Posts: 1583
Joined: Fri Jun 05, 2009 8:36 pm

RE: Emergency: AF306 180deg Over Birmingham

Mon Oct 17, 2011 4:22 pm

Forget the channel mountains, it's the waves...
 
ULMFlyer
Posts: 190
Joined: Sat Sep 30, 2006 11:39 am

RE: Emergency: AF306 180deg Over Birmingham

Mon Oct 17, 2011 4:34 pm

Quoting eugegall (Reply 12):
Well I've flown a PA28 from London to Le Touquet and i managed a height of 8000ft.

This thread reminded me of this particular Avweb's "Short Final:"

While on a flight from NC to Cape May, NJ (along the coast of MD), I heard this exchange between Dover approach and a pilot:

Cessna 1234:
"Dover approach, we would like to fly down the coast at 3,000 feet."

Dover Approach:
"Cessna 1234, proceed as requested."

A few minutes later ...

Cessna 1234 (frantic!) :
"Dover approach! There is really big airplane, and he is coming straight at us!"

Dover Approach (cool, calm, and collected) :
"Cessna 1234, that is a KC-135, and he is 1,000 feet below you. Should be no factor."

Cessna 1234 (still frantic) :
"But he is coming straight at us!"

Dover Approach (very professional) :
"Cessna 1234, turn 30 degrees right. Piper 5678: Really big airplane, 10 o'clock, 2 miles, 2,000 feet."

Piper 5678:
"Really big airplane in sight, no factor."
Let's go Pens!
 
bond007
Posts: 4428
Joined: Mon Mar 14, 2005 2:07 am

RE: Emergency: AF306 180deg Over Birmingham

Mon Oct 17, 2011 5:20 pm

Quoting TCASAlert (Reply 11):
Sorry for pointing this out but you do realise you're talking to a 747 pilot here so he probably knows that

Hey guys, lhr380 was absolutely correct, 10,000ft is 'Very low Alt to be crossing the channel?' for an A330, unless there was a problem, which I assume anyway was what he was suggesting.

I think we all know 10,000ft is not very low if you have a pressurization ptoblem, or engine issue etc., but nobody had suggested that yet .... hence the remark.... geesh!



Jimbo
I'd rather be on the ground wishing I was in the air, than in the air wishing I was on the ground!
 
gatechae
Posts: 84
Joined: Mon Sep 05, 2005 5:22 am

RE: Emergency: AF306 180deg Over Birmingham

Mon Oct 17, 2011 5:31 pm

Quoting rfields5421 (Reply 9):
The return to CDG rather than landing at LHR indicates a maintenance issue - not safety of flight critical, but sufficient to prevent a trans-atlantic flight. Returning to the main base indicates they want the plane where extensive maintenance is available.

Plus I imagine its a lot easier for AF to find a plane full of A330 pax alternate flights without putting them on other airlines in CDG than in LHR or BHX.
 
FlySSC
Posts: 5334
Joined: Tue Aug 12, 2003 1:38 am

RE: Emergency: AF306 180deg Over Birmingham

Mon Oct 17, 2011 5:51 pm

AF306 landed at 1:00PM in CDG.
Left again CDG at 4:00PM to SEA
 
LY777
Posts: 2572
Joined: Fri Nov 25, 2005 6:58 pm

RE: Emergency: AF306 180deg Over Birmingham

Mon Oct 17, 2011 7:48 pm

Quoting FlySSC (Reply 20):
AF306 landed at 1:00PM in CDG.
Left again CDG at 4:00PM to SEA

So, it was nothing serious, finally?!
Flown:717,727,732,733,734,735,738,73H,742/744/748,752,753,762/2ER/763/3ER,772/77E/773/77W, 788, 789, DC8,DC10,E190,E195,MD83,MD88, L1011, A3B2,A319,A320-100/200,A321,A332/A333,A343,A388
 
FriendlySkiesUK
Posts: 24
Joined: Sun Jul 10, 2011 12:26 pm

RE: Emergency: AF306 180deg Over Birmingham

Mon Oct 17, 2011 7:54 pm

Quoting LY777 (Reply 21):
So, it was nothing serious, finally?!

Could it be they ran out of coffee?  

Kat
Katie
 
User avatar
Gonzalo
Posts: 1846
Joined: Tue Aug 23, 2005 2:43 am

RE: Emergency: AF306 180deg Over Birmingham

Mon Oct 17, 2011 10:00 pm

Quoting FriendlySkiesUK (Reply 22):
Could it be they ran out of coffee?

Kat

Nope... like someone said earlier, a cracked windshield...

http://www.avherald.com/h?article=444a8be9&opt=0

Rgds.
G.
Gear Up!!: DC-3 / EMB-110 / FH-227 / A318-19-20-21 / B732 / B763 / B789 / B788 / A343 / ATR72-600
 
awthompson
Posts: 520
Joined: Sat May 28, 2005 9:59 pm

RE: Emergency: AF306 180deg Over Birmingham

Mon Oct 17, 2011 10:10 pm

Quoting rfields5421 (Reply 9):
But it might also have been to increase the fuel burn on the return to CDG. A few hundred miles at that altitude would burn a lot of fuel, and make the landing at CDG lighter. I don't know the MTOW or MLW of the A330 series, but that is also a possibility. It is very seldom done, but not unheard of.

Please don't laugh, but on 24th February 2008, flight AAL125 from London Stansted to JFK (yes American did operate a JFK flight from Stansted for a while) did a complete circuit of Ireland and the UK all at only FL130 just to burn fuel before landing ultimately at London Heathrow. I'm not sure if anyone can remember that occasion, or know of a more unusual one.
He came over my house in Northern Ireland heading north at FL130 (I thought for a few minutes he was trying to make Iceland at that altitude just to get home) but he routed over the Scottish Isles then curved back down the other side of Scotland, then England and down into London Heathrow after a further hold at Bovingdon. There was no emergency descent, he never did climb any higher than FL130, in fact coming back down England was only at FL100. He stayed under a cloud layer the whole time and on passing over Northern Ireland he had a flap setting of about 20 degrees, I guess to help keep the speed down. The aircraft was B763 N397AN. The flight was eventually operated later that evening by a substitute N349AN. The whole episode lasted over three hours and was great fun to watch and listen to. The crew were kept very busy changing frequency every few minutes as they passed through each lower altitude zone and the passengers got a nice free circuit of the UK! At the time, the cause was stated as "Captain's side altimeter fault." There was a forum discussion on this site, if you can find it, its quite good fun to read. It was titled "AAL125 Turning Back After 2 Hours?"
 
shufflemoomin
Posts: 409
Joined: Fri Jun 25, 2010 11:04 am

RE: Emergency: AF306 180deg Over Birmingham

Mon Oct 17, 2011 10:24 pm

Quoting awthompson (Reply 24):
did a complete circuit of Ireland and the UK all at only FL130 just to burn fuel before landing ultimately at London Heathrow

I thought a 767 could dump fuel? Is that incorrect? Why would they spend that time in the air to burn off fuel if they could just dump it and get everyone on the ground as quickly as possible?
 
474218
Posts: 4510
Joined: Mon Oct 10, 2005 12:27 pm

RE: Emergency: AF306 180deg Over Birmingham

Mon Oct 17, 2011 10:56 pm

Quoting awthompson (Reply 24):
Please don't laugh, but on 24th February 2008, flight AAL125 from London Stansted to JFK (yes American did operate a JFK flight from Stansted for a while) did a complete circuit of Ireland and the UK all at only FL130 just to burn fuel before landing ultimately at London Heathrow. I'm not sure if anyone can remember that occasion, or know of a more unusual one.

Lockheed ferried an L-1011 (s/n 193A 1003) ex N781DA and N302EA from LAX to Marietta, Georgia at 10,000 feet because of a earlier failure of the aft pressure bulkhead.

Lockheed needed an airframe for validation of their wide spread fatigue program, so Delta sold them s/n 1003 for $1.00.

The crew noted that ATC provided warnings to private aircraft along the route that there was heavy traffic at FL10 and that they should keep an eye out for it and give it a wide berth!
 
JHCRJ700
Posts: 230
Joined: Fri Oct 30, 2009 5:51 pm

RE: Emergency: AF306 180deg Over Birmingham

Mon Oct 17, 2011 11:14 pm

Quoting ULMFlyer (Reply 17):
Piper 5678:
"Really big airplane in sight, no factor."

HAHA! wow. I've heard some pilots say some funny things while flying but that is pretty funny.
Keep close to Nature’s heart... and break clear away, once in awhile, and climb a mountain or spend a week in the woods. Wash your spirit clean.
 
User avatar
n901wa
Posts: 453
Joined: Thu Oct 15, 2009 5:38 pm

RE: Emergency: AF306 180deg Over Birmingham

Tue Oct 18, 2011 3:11 am

I remember 781 going to Marietta. It was a Hangar queen for a long time in LAX, and didn't want to leave. When the were getting her ready for the first ferry ft, the contractor put a hole in the Hoz stb painting the tail. The Second time they tried to ferry 781, a hurricane was getting close to the panhandle, so they waited a month to finally get 781 out of LAX. After the second try, we had some fun and stuck grass around the wheels to see who would notice   Didn't go over well, but a got a neat pic  
 
User avatar
LTU330
Posts: 255
Joined: Sun Jun 05, 2005 4:40 pm

RE: Emergency: AF306 180deg Over Birmingham

Tue Oct 18, 2011 6:37 am

Quoting shufflemoomin (Reply 25):
I thought a 767 could dump fuel? Is that incorrect? Why would they spend that time in the air to burn off fuel if they could just dump it and get everyone on the ground as quickly as possible?

Not all Boeing 767 aircraft are equipped with the Fuel Jettison system. It is a customer option.
 
vs773er
Posts: 238
Joined: Mon Jan 19, 2004 8:19 pm

RE: Emergency: AF306 180deg Over Birmingham

Tue Oct 18, 2011 9:09 am

Quoting shufflemoomin (Reply 25):
Please don't laugh, but on 24th February 2008, flight AAL125 from London Stansted to JFK (yes American did operate a JFK flight from Stansted for a while) did a complete circuit of Ireland and the UK all at only FL130 just to burn fuel before landing ultimately at London Heathrow. I'm not sure if anyone can remember that occasion, or know of a more unusual one.
He came over my house in Northern Ireland heading north at FL130 (I thought for a few minutes he was trying to make Iceland at that altitude just to get home) but he routed over the Scottish Isles then curved back down the other side of Scotland, then England and down into London Heathrow after a further hold at Bovingdon. There was no emergency descent, he never did climb any higher than FL130, in fact coming back down England was only at FL100. He stayed under a cloud layer the whole time and on passing over Northern Ireland he had a flap setting of about 20 degrees, I guess to help keep the speed down. The aircraft was B763 N397AN. The flight was eventually operated later that evening by a substitute N349AN. The whole episode lasted over three hours and was great fun to watch and listen to. The crew were kept very busy changing frequency every few minutes as they passed through each lower altitude zone and the passengers got a nice free circuit of the UK! At the time, the cause was stated as "Captain's side altimeter fault." There was a forum discussion on this site, if you can find it, its quite good fun to read. It was titled "AAL125 Turning Back After 2 Hours?"

This is all Av Herald has on the event;
http://avherald.com/h?article=40296471&opt=0

Would be nice to have this route back as STN.
Communicating. Keeping up foreign relations...

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