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AirCanada787
Topic Author
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Porter, 2 Others Issued Notices Of Suspension

Tue Oct 18, 2011 1:32 am

I just saw that a friend had posted this story on Facebook but I didn't see it mentioned on here anywhere. It seems that Porter was issued a notice of suspension by Transport Canada for violating air safety rules. Two other airlines, First Nations Transportation and Buffalo Airways also received notices. Since 2005 Transport Canada has issued 11 such notices to commercial carriers, or aircraft maintenance companies.

"— Porter Airlines Inc., is one of a handful of air carriers — and the only large commercial airline — that has faced the threat of being grounded for failing to comply with Transport Canada's air safety rules, government statistics show.

But the company won't say what the issue was that led Transport Canada to issue the warning. Transport Canada is also being mum, raising questions about how much the flying public is entitled to know about an airline's record.

Since 2005, when Transport Canada implemented a new inspection system in civil aviation called Safety Management Systems (SMS), the department has issued 11 notices of suspension to aircraft maintenance companies or commercial airlines. The rarely used enforcement tool usually gives companies 30 days to comply with Canada's aviation regulations or have their Air Operating Certificate suspended until the operation makes changes to bring it into compliance."



Read more: http://www.canada.com/news/safety+co...w/5563524/story.html#ixzz1b5kcIZwl

Just wondering any ideas about what sort of issues would result in such a suspension being issued? The article said it is a rarely used enforcement tool, and clearly since it has only been used 11 times in six years it isn't used often.
The mind, like a parachute, functions only when open.
 
ykaops
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RE: Porter, 2 Others Issued Notices Of Suspension

Tue Oct 18, 2011 3:27 am

Looks like ACexpress may be getting more Q400'S sooner than they planned?!?!?      
 
joelyboy911
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RE: Porter, 2 Others Issued Notices Of Suspension

Tue Oct 18, 2011 3:43 am

Quoting AirCanada787 (Thread starter):
Buffalo Airways

Should make for a good episode on Ice Pilots, I suppose... You couldn't make this stuff up, eh?
Flown: NZ, NY, SJ, QF, UA, AC, EI, BE, TP, AF
 
Bureaucromancer
Posts: 113
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RE: Porter, 2 Others Issued Notices Of Suspension

Tue Oct 18, 2011 4:04 am

Montreal Gazette says is was only a warning http://www.montrealgazette.com/news/...rter+stats+show/5563524/story.html

PS: And bear in mind that where Air Canada competitors are involved these can be about fairly stupid things, as in the WestJet case back in the 90s.

[Edited 2011-10-17 21:06:52]

[Edited 2011-10-17 21:07:16]
 
LV
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RE: Porter, 2 Others Issued Notices Of Suspension

Tue Oct 18, 2011 4:44 am

Quoting AirCanada787 (Thread starter):
Buffalo Airways

Say it a'int so Buffalo Joe. I wonder if the TV show brought attention to something that wouldn't have been otherwise noticed?
 
AirCanada787
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Posts: 264
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RE: Porter, 2 Others Issued Notices Of Suspension

Tue Oct 18, 2011 5:01 am

Quoting Bureaucromancer (Reply 3):

Montreal Gazette says is was only a warning

The article from the Gazette is actually the exact same one from the Canada.com, it was written by Post Media News. According to the article, a notice of suspension usually allows the airline 30 days to comply with the regulations before their Air Operating Certificate is actually suspended.

Quoting Bureaucromancer (Reply 3):
PS: And bear in mind that where Air Canada competitors are involved these can be about fairly stupid things, as in the WestJet case back in the 90s.

Just wondering what this WestJet case in the 90s was about?
The mind, like a parachute, functions only when open.
 
JoeCanuck
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RE: Porter, 2 Others Issued Notices Of Suspension

Tue Oct 18, 2011 5:03 am

Quoting LV (Reply 4):
I wonder if the TV show brought attention to something that wouldn't have been otherwise noticed?

Could be. There was a logging show in Washington or Oregon that got one company fined because they showed one company logging on restricted land.
What the...?
 
Bureaucromancer
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RE: Porter, 2 Others Issued Notices Of Suspension

Tue Oct 18, 2011 5:32 am

Quoting AirCanada787 (Reply 5):
Just wondering what this WestJet case in the 90s was about?

In 1996 a few months after startup (while operating four aircraft) Transport Canada grounded WestJet for two weeks on the basis of supposed shortcomings in maintenance scheduling and (to my understanding mostly) documentation. It's never to my knowledge become entirely clear what precisely happened, but it would appear that while there were some shortcomings in documentation the largest part of what happened was that Tranport Canada changed its mind as to whether a modified version of Boeing maintenance program was acceptable, and grounded the fleet while the previously approved program was reworked.

No direct invovlement of Air Canada, but the whole thing was very suspicious (IMO) at a time when AC was most definitely unhappy that WestJet so much as existed (not that WestJet's hands are exactly clean here - they admitted to some fairly significant industrial espionage against Air Canada a decade later).
 
TheCol
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RE: Porter, 2 Others Issued Notices Of Suspension

Tue Oct 18, 2011 6:20 am

Quoting joelyboy911 (Reply 2):

Wouldn't be the first time.
No matter how random things may appear, there's always a plan.
 
RP TPA
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RE: Porter, 2 Others Issued Notices Of Suspension

Tue Oct 18, 2011 9:35 am

This may be nothing more than the fact that page 67, which contained the important info "PAGE INTENTIONALLY LEFT BLANK", was missing from the manuals.
 
YYZYYT
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RE: Porter, 2 Others Issued Notices Of Suspension

Tue Oct 18, 2011 10:47 am

Wasn't JetsGo hit with actual restrictions in their certificate as areuslt of several incidents, in the months leading up to thier bankruptcy? (IIRC, they were limied to flight level 180 but the reason escapes me).

Did that result in from the same warning process?
 
Pronto
Posts: 318
Joined: Tue Mar 28, 2000 12:43 pm

RE: Porter, 2 Others Issued Notices Of Suspension

Tue Oct 18, 2011 1:28 pm

Surprise, surprise. AC starts up at Billy Bishop, and then Porter gets this...what's the violation? Better service?
 
Airontario
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RE: Porter, 2 Others Issued Notices Of Suspension

Tue Oct 18, 2011 1:32 pm

Hey it only took 3 posts for someone to accuse Air Canada of doing something wrong.

People this is about Porter, Buffalo Airways, First Nations Transport and Transport Canada. This has nothing to do with Air Canada. Deal with it.
 
flyinryan99
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RE: Porter, 2 Others Issued Notices Of Suspension

Tue Oct 18, 2011 1:49 pm

Quoting RP TPA (Reply 9):
This may be nothing more than the fact that page 67, which contained the important info "PAGE INTENTIONALLY LEFT BLANK", was missing from the manuals.

This was my initial thought - a typical paperwork thing that has no bearing on the safety of actually flying the plane... whether that's the case or not, is debatable. I would put my money on it being nothing more then a paperwork issue or we would've seen them grounded or fined if there was actual safety issues.
 
beechnut
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RE: Porter, 2 Others Issued Notices Of Suspension

Tue Oct 18, 2011 1:53 pm

Quoting YYZYYT (Reply 10):
Wasn't JetsGo hit with actual restrictions in their certificate as areuslt of several incidents, in the months leading up to thier bankruptcy? (IIRC, they were limied to flight level 180 but the reason escapes me).

Had to do with RVSM certification, which they lost:

http://beta.flightglobal.com/news/ar...ntil-rvsm-issues-addressed-284361/

They weren't restricted to 180 but rather 280.

Beech
 
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longhauler
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RE: Porter, 2 Others Issued Notices Of Suspension

Tue Oct 18, 2011 2:12 pm

Quoting flyinryan99 (Reply 13):
This was my initial thought - a typical paperwork thing that has no bearing on the safety of actually flying the plane... whether that's the case or not, is debatable. I would put my money on it being nothing more then a paperwork issue or we would've seen them grounded or fined if there was actual safety issues.

When Transport Canada issues a "Show Cause", it can be for anything from a paperwork issue, to procedural issues to flying illegal aircraft with counterfeit parts.

The main point with these notices, is that it is all private, and if the carrier complies, it will remain private.

I understand that Porter has already complied, and Transport Canada has lifted the notice.
Just because I stopped arguing, doesn't mean I think you are right. It just means I gave up!
 
Kaiarahi
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RE: Porter, 2 Others Issued Notices Of Suspension

Tue Oct 18, 2011 2:45 pm

Quoting longhauler (Reply 15):
I understand that Porter has already complied, and Transport Canada has lifted the notice.

That's my understanding too - which suggests that the issue was minor, as it didn't take long to remedy.

Slightly off-topic, but legislation has been introduced to amend the Air Canada Public Participation Act to make AC contract carriers directly subject to the Official Languages Act and accountable to the Commissioner of Official Languages, and to require ACE Holdings (the AC parent company) to maintain its head office in Montreal.
Empty vessels make the most noise.
 
ac7e7
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RE: Porter, 2 Others Issued Notices Of Suspension

Tue Oct 18, 2011 3:48 pm

Always blame the big guy. It must be Air Canada. It must be George Bush. People, get over it. These notices have to do with violations at each of these airlines. In no way should a smaller competitor be allowed any deviation from the rules and regulations of Transport Canada just because they are competing with a company 10 times their size.
 
rampart
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RE: Porter, 2 Others Issued Notices Of Suspension

Tue Oct 18, 2011 3:57 pm

Quoting airontario (Reply 12):
People this is about Porter, Buffalo Airways, First Nations Transport and Transport Canada. This has nothing to do with Air Canada. Deal with it.

It does look suspicous to the rest of the non-Air Canada world. Porter seems to have a reputable operation, it would surprise me if something major fell through the cracks. Not that it hasn't happened to reputable airlines elsewhere, but it would be surprising. And if not major, then highly suspicious.

-Rampart
 
JHCRJ700
Posts: 238
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RE: Porter, 2 Others Issued Notices Of Suspension

Tue Oct 18, 2011 4:01 pm

I wonder if AC had anything to do with this. I just read an article written about Porter and how much AC did not want them to start up.   
It's the power and the glory, It's a war in paradise, A Cinderella story, On a tumble of the dice
 
Kaiarahi
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RE: Porter, 2 Others Issued Notices Of Suspension

Tue Oct 18, 2011 4:15 pm

Quoting rampart (Reply 18):
It does look suspicous to the rest of the non-Air Canada world.
Quoting rampart (Reply 18):
I wonder if AC had anything to do with this.

Yeah - AC hired Dick Cheney to hire Blackwater to hire the ex WS guys who went through the AC VP's trash to remove pages from PD's MX manuals.
Empty vessels make the most noise.
 
Bureaucromancer
Posts: 113
Joined: Tue Feb 02, 2010 3:17 am

RE: Porter, 2 Others Issued Notices Of Suspension

Tue Oct 18, 2011 4:54 pm

Quoting Kaiarahi (Reply 20):
Yeah - AC hired Dick Cheney to hire Blackwater to hire the ex WS guys who went through the AC VP's trash to remove pages from PD's MX manuals.

Would anyone REALLY be that shocked? I kid, but that isn't really too far removed from what WestJet pulled on Air Canada.
 
AirCanada787
Topic Author
Posts: 264
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RE: Porter, 2 Others Issued Notices Of Suspension

Tue Oct 18, 2011 6:20 pm

Quoting airontario (Reply 12):
People this is about Porter, Buffalo Airways, First Nations Transport and Transport Canada. This has nothing to do with Air Canada. Deal with it.

  

Quoting AC7E7 (Reply 17):
Always blame the big guy. It must be Air Canada. It must be George Bush. People, get over it. These notices have to do with violations at each of these airlines.

  


I should have known when I posted this that people would somehow find a way to blame AC.... Some people have already mentioned reasons about why the notice could have been issued, which was what I was interested in discussing. I find it interesting that it could be issued for something as seemingly small as paperwork issue like "PAGE INTENTIONALLY LEFT BLANK" being left off as suggested by RP TPA. One would think that they would have different categories of warnings, suspensions, etc.
The mind, like a parachute, functions only when open.
 
jtamu97
Posts: 630
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RE: Porter, 2 Others Issued Notices Of Suspension

Tue Oct 18, 2011 6:26 pm

If I remember correctly, Buffalo was operating their passeneger service without a flight attendant. Buffalo Joe was trying his best to keep the link open for his faithful few. Well, that is how the show relayed it. In one of the last episodes, one of the ramp guys was trying very hard to earn the flight attendant certificate but was not doing well. Transport Canada gave Buffalo a grace period to come into compliance and on the show it seemed Joe had a pretty bad attitude about trying to come into compliance. I guess he finally bucked the system one too many times. Personally, I like the guy and love the history of Buffalo Airways but rules are rules whether we like them or not. Hopefully the issues will be worked out.
Propeller, we don't need no stinkin propeller
 
safetyDemo
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RE: Porter, 2 Others Issued Notices Of Suspension

Tue Oct 18, 2011 6:42 pm

Quoting jtamu97 (Reply 23):

If I remember correctly, Buffalo was operating their passeneger service without a flight attendant.

They had flight attendants. They didn't have a Flight Attendant/Inflight Manager. So one of his employees stepped up to receive his certification as a manager of flight attendants. I think a majority of employees at Buffalo are cross-trained in different roles, some of them cross-trained as flight attendants. At least thats the impression I get from the show.
Please direct your attention to the flight attendants in the cabin...
 
jtamu97
Posts: 630
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RE: Porter, 2 Others Issued Notices Of Suspension

Tue Oct 18, 2011 6:52 pm

Thanks. Yeah I could not rememeber the exact problem and yes it does appear many of the staff are cross trained.
Propeller, we don't need no stinkin propeller
 
threepoint
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RE: Porter, 2 Others Issued Notices Of Suspension

Tue Oct 18, 2011 7:03 pm

Quoting jtamu97 (Reply 23):
Personally, I like the guy and love the history of Buffalo Airways

Clearly, you have never met the man, nor have a sense of the history of contract awards in the NWT.
The nice thing about a mistake is the pleasure it gives others.
 
yyzame
Posts: 11
Joined: Sun Jan 02, 2011 10:05 pm

RE: Porter, 2 Others Issued Notices Of Suspension

Tue Oct 18, 2011 7:29 pm

Quoting Bureaucromancer (Reply 7):

Transport Canada did not ground WestJet. WestJet voluntarily grounded themselves. I have been working for WJ since the start in 1996, when this happened it was as you said over a records issue. The company grounded their fleet so that literally everyone from Flight Op's to Call centre could help pitch in and get the files organized before our time limit with Transport Canada was up.
 
yyzame
Posts: 11
Joined: Sun Jan 02, 2011 10:05 pm

RE: Porter, 2 Others Issued Notices Of Suspension

Tue Oct 18, 2011 7:31 pm

Quoting YYZYYT (Reply 10):

haha! They were supposed to be grounded the same week they called it quits
 
KELPkid
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RE: Porter, 2 Others Issued Notices Of Suspension

Tue Oct 18, 2011 8:08 pm

Quoting RP TPA (Reply 9):
This may be nothing more than the fact that page 67, which contained the important info "PAGE INTENTIONALLY LEFT BLANK", was missing from the manuals.

Nah, it was the guy at Kinko's that accidentally ran off one of the pages upside down when he made a copy of the QRH that the inspector happened to look at   

On a more serious note, I got chewed out by a check airman for flying a plane with my personal copy of the POH, which really did have a page accidentally copied upside down by the guy at Kinko's (I took the original POH down to Kinko's and had them make a copy)  
Celebrating the birth of KELPkidJR on August 5, 2009 :-)
 
BE77
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RE: Porter, 2 Others Issued Notices Of Suspension

Tue Oct 18, 2011 10:08 pm

Quoting safetyDemo (Reply 24):
some of them cross-trained as flight attendants

I haven't regularly travelled out of YZF for about 5 years now, but it seemed all the pilots on all the carriers there are cross trained as FA's (and rampies, and load masters, and..) or at least were working that way on everything big enough to require an FA (usually the 732's had full time FA's, but I got coffee from more than one ATP rated FA on those too!).
Just seems to be how it works there - lots of planes, but more than enough pilots, so start at the bottom and try to get enough time as well as proving attitude, and go on from there.
Rough on some, others thrive, which is another way of describing both Yellowknife and the north in general.
Tower, Affirmitive, gear is down and welded
 
aamd11
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RE: Porter, 2 Others Issued Notices Of Suspension

Wed Oct 19, 2011 12:13 am

From: http://ca.reuters.com/article/businessNews/idCATRE79H7NI20111018

the incident involved a previously approved maintenance manual that the small, regional airline was required to bring more into line with the federal body's newly minted safety management system (SMS), Porter Chief Executive Robert Deluce said.

That was four years ago, apparently.
 
ykaops
Posts: 66
Joined: Fri Nov 19, 2010 1:53 am

RE: Porter, 2 Others Issued Notices Of Suspension

Mon Oct 31, 2011 7:48 am

Quoting JHCRJ700 (Reply 19):
Porter seems to have a reputable operation, it would surprise me if something major fell through the cracks. Not that it hasn't happened to reputable airlines elsewhere, but it would be surprising. And if not major, then highly suspicious.

Look into the owners past airline ventures then think before you say anything.. sure it's good now, and I congratulate him, but sometime down the road I am sure --it will hit the fan.. me thinks this is just the beginning!
 
WestJet747
Posts: 1950
Joined: Sat Aug 06, 2011 7:43 pm

RE: Porter, 2 Others Issued Notices Of Suspension

Mon Oct 31, 2011 3:43 pm

Quoting ykaops (Reply 32):
Look into the owners past airline ventures then think before you say anything.. sure it's good now, and I congratulate him, but sometime down the road I am sure --it will hit the fan.. me thinks this is just the beginning!

Of Deluce's previous airlines, the only one where things really "hit the fan" was Canada 3000 (and it was a total disaster). But we have to keep in mind that Deluce only served as CEO until 1995, the company went insolvent in 2001 (only a year after a $30 million IPO   ) .

But Canada 3000 and Porter are two completely opposite carriers in every way:
1) Mixed vs. Pure fleet
2) Discount vs. All-business ("Flying Refined")
3) Market segmentation
4) Network complexity

In my opinion, Deluce is doing just about everything right for a 5-year old airline. And with a guy like Donald Carty as chairman, it's hard to see him letting Deluce go too far of course.
Flying refined.

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