maxpower1954
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RE: Air Travel Between USA And Cuba Post-Embargo?

Fri Oct 21, 2011 3:27 pm

Ostensibly, the embargo is tied to Castro's human rights violations, which is laughable - the U.S. has trade relations with many countries with much worse human rights issues than Cuba.

The Cuban exile community has a right to be bitter. In the 1959 revolution, the Castro government seized, without any compensation whatsoever all private property and businesses. One reason you see so many ancient American autos today in Cuba is Castro allowed automobiles to stay in private hands, but they must remain in the family - meaning these cars get passed down from generation to generation. U.S. company assets worth hundreds of millions of dollars were seized. I have read that National Airlines alone lost over 2 million in cash they couldn't get out, which was a big chunk of change for an airline NAL's
size.

Funny how this never seems to come up in the media anymore. Having said this, the embargo is probably the most important factor that has kept Castro in power. The U.S. has made a wonderful scapegoat to cover for the regime's failings, especially since the Soviets pulled their support over 20 years ago.

Back in the late 1970s I flew over 40 charter flights in DC-3s to Cuba. It's a fantastic country, with wonderful people. The bond between America and Cuba is strong and will someday thrive again.
 
LAXdude1023
Posts: 5955
Joined: Thu Sep 07, 2006 3:16 pm

RE: Air Travel Between USA And Cuba Post-Embargo?

Fri Oct 21, 2011 3:35 pm

Quoting maxpower1954 (Reply 50):
Ostensibly, the embargo is tied to Castro's human rights violations, which is laughable - the U.S. has trade relations with many countries with much worse human rights issues than Cuba.

Theres no oil in Cuba. Enough said.
FOR THE LOVE OF GOD BRING BACK THE PAYWALL!!!!
 
bjorn14
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RE: Air Travel Between USA And Cuba Post-Embargo?

Fri Oct 21, 2011 5:33 pm

Quoting AA767LOVER (Reply 37):

MIA/FLL wouldn't really need large planes. MCO could use 320s or E190s on B6.
CLT could use a CRJ-900 to HAV.
ATL could use a 73G or 73H depending on demand; WN could see Cuba being its first international destination from ATL.
DFW - agreed that a 738 is good enough. How about the SJU hub? An AT7?
IAH could send ERJ-XLR or 73G's to HAV based on demand.
EWR could see a 738 or 739 on the weekends. HAV is really more of a weekend getaway place than a business destination, wouldn't you think? More resort than a world-class city like NYC, PAR or LON.
But it has a lot of charm for sure.
JFK could use a 757 to HAV either AA/DL could run this.
LAX-HAV regular? I would think Virgin America could try it first.
IAD-HAV - UNITED A319 maybe.

You forgot MSY who just got permission for their Cuba charter flights.  

Everbody has forgotten the best beach destination in Cuba!....Cayo Coco (CCC)
"I want to know the voice of God the rest is just details" --A. Einstein
 
MSYtristar
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RE: Air Travel Between USA And Cuba Post-Embargo?

Fri Oct 21, 2011 6:20 pm

Quoting bjorn14 (Reply 52):
You forgot MSY who just got permission for their Cuba charter flights.

Yep. Not a lot of love for MSY in this thread considering it was once a former HAV gateway and will once again have direct service to HAV in the not too distant future.
 
peteinmiami
Posts: 175
Joined: Tue Mar 16, 2004 12:09 am

RE: Air Travel Between USA And Cuba Post-Embargo?

Fri Oct 21, 2011 6:28 pm

Quoting Superfly (Reply 47):
The Cuban American population in south Florida is very powerful and Florida is a swing state.


Well it is a small amount of the Cuban American population in South Florida, unfortunately, that small amount is very powerful, politically and and from the economic stand point too. There is a group of Cuban American politicians that had made their career exploiting the issue of Cuba. The majority of the Cuban Americans are tired of the Embargo and the restrictions attached to it, and most of them are the victims as are also their families in Cuba too. All those Cubans in South Florida express their disagreement with the Embargo getting into one of the 8-12 charters flights a day that leave Miami to Havana.

There is another issue, the Embargo is part of the Helm-Burton's law, it cannot be removed by a presidential order, a vote from the legislators is required. The Helm-Burton law also reads that only if a change of government had taken place in Cuba and that steps to implement Democracy had taken place, the Embargo can be lifted. So it is not as simple as it looks.

Quoting StarAC17 (Reply 36):
The novelty of a place frozen in time is what brings in a lot of its tourists.

That should never be the reason why Cuba should stay the way it is right now. Cubans love their rich architecture, history, traditions, but they want to build a better country too with all Cubans reunited working for the future of their county, not only for the tourists that are going to visit their place. Do not get me wrong, tourists are very welcomed in Cuba and they are always going to be. Building a better Cuba, will also build a better place for tourist to go visit!

But that is enough about politics here, let's keep talking about aviation!!!
 
multimark
Posts: 454
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RE: Air Travel Between USA And Cuba Post-Embargo?

Fri Oct 21, 2011 6:32 pm

Anyone who wants a unique vacation experience should go now. Once the embargo is lifted it will become just another tacky Carribean tourist trap.
 
tommy767
Posts: 4658
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RE: Air Travel Between USA And Cuba Post-Embargo?

Fri Oct 21, 2011 6:51 pm

Screw the 738, no doubt in my mind AA can and will fly a 763 between MIA and HAV

Quoting AA767LOVER (Reply 37):
IAD-HAV - UNITED A319 maybe.

Without a doubt. IAD-HAV will fit well into the "Capital to Capital" service that UA has been strategizing the hub with. Expect a daily 319/320.
"KEEP CLIMBING" -- DELTA
 
BN747
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Joined: Thu Mar 28, 2002 5:48 am

RE: Air Travel Between USA And Cuba Post-Embargo?

Fri Oct 21, 2011 6:54 pm

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 44):
I guess since this thread hasn't digressed into a political bloodbath, and since I'm the OP and can do whatever I want (   ) I can ask: why hasn't the embargo been lifted? Obviously it is an opinion, but I've seen many opinions on here. Is it pride? Is it Castro? Is it because Cuba is still 'communist'? No politician wants to touch it? I am in no real position to talk because I am just getting to be at an age where I can think for myself and I can't really criticize the past since I was young, but it will be interesting to see what yall think

It was because of Castro making Cuba Communist nation (to some degree you can't blame him, born into a wealthy family but disliked Imperialistic America at the time treating his land/people like Americans treated many nations back then - like its their own personal playground. There's a book written perfectly for the era and a film made of it...called the Ugly American. Its not about a guy with an unpleasant face... think about college kids who go across the border of Tijuana Mexico to bad mouth how horrible the place is, how filthy the Mexicans are.. and go to for cheap sex and under aged drinking - well back then it was 1000X worse. You could get away with anything..esp. if you had money. The US mafia had free reign and lorded over the place thru casinos. The local people were beneath you) That was the ugly American

America's Pride was shreaded over Castro's successful overthrown. In the middle of the period known as the Red Scare (Americans were worried to death a communist might be their next door neighbor and spied on each other like crazy - today the Red Scare os Terrorism.. if you find yourself wearily look at anyone who is Muslim , after 9/11 it was a nightmare.. it's the same thing).

But today, it's all about politics.. nothing more. The Vietnamese who also went Castro on us.. are now our good trade partner friends..yet they served us a more horrible tasting dish of humiliation - a straight up military defeat. And Vietnam Airlines today has one of the largest 777 fleets in Asia and rights to serve the USA when they're good and ready. Cuba on the other hand ..cannot. So it's now about politicians on either side trying to figure how to take the advantage of the South Florida Cuban power base without making the wrong move.

Quoting maxpower1954 (Reply 50):
The Cuban exile community has a right to be bitter. In the 1959 revolution, the Castro government seized, without any compensation whatsoever all private property and businesses. One reason you see so many ancient American autos today in Cuba is Castro allowed automobiles to stay in private hands, but they must remain in the family - meaning these cars get passed down from generation to generation. U.S. company assets worth hundreds of millions of dollars were seized. I have read that National Airlines alone lost over 2 million in cash they couldn't get out, which was a big chunk of change for an airline NAL's
size.

Chairman Mao did exactly the same thing when he took China. Which really is a smart move.. because after you've taken over .. if you try to be their friend, they would make you pay and pay dearly..just ask Haiti.

Quoting mhkansan (Reply 48):
This is why I think Obama will wait until his second term - maybe even late into it, because he will not need worry about trying to win reelection for himself, and the next Democrat can pander to the Cuban Americans without saying he's going to reinstate the embargo.

I think you're right, but it's most likely to be in the earlier part of his 2nd term as a strategy not to effect whoever the 2016 Dem candidate might be.

But it would behoove the Cubans to place restrictions and go slow at American interaction at 1st - actually mainly targeting the South Florida Cubans because it is that crowd that is most likely looking to screw things up.. with demands and litigation....they're the ones wielding a pretty big axe to grind.

BN747
"Home of the Brave, made by the Slaves..Land of the Free, if you look like me.." T. Jefferson
 
EDTrauma
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RE: Air Travel Between USA And Cuba Post-Embargo?

Fri Oct 21, 2011 7:02 pm

I'm not surprised at how quickly this post turned political, even though it was asked not to.
 
BN747
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Joined: Thu Mar 28, 2002 5:48 am

RE: Air Travel Between USA And Cuba Post-Embargo?

Fri Oct 21, 2011 7:22 pm

Quoting EDTrauma (Reply 58):
I'm not surprised at how quickly this post turned political, even though it was asked not to.

I guess you have a hard time actually following a thread... the OP did pose the question explicitly about the political nature of the situation...14 replies back and I did re-post his request in my reply...

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 44):
I guess since this thread hasn't digressed into a political bloodbath, and since I'm the OP and can do whatever I want (   ) I can ask: why hasn't the embargo been lifted? Obviously it is an opinion, but I've seen many opinions on here. Is it pride? Is it Castro? Is it because Cuba is still 'communist'? No politician wants to touch it? I am in no real position to talk because I am just getting to be at an age where I can think for myself and I can't really criticize the past since I was young, but it will be interesting to see what yall think

Now you're miffed because he received an answer? What's that all about?

BN747

[Edited 2011-10-21 12:41:20]
"Home of the Brave, made by the Slaves..Land of the Free, if you look like me.." T. Jefferson
 
airliner777
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RE: Air Travel Between USA And Cuba Post-Embargo?

Fri Oct 21, 2011 7:22 pm

Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 51):
Theres no oil in Cuba. Enough said.

As far as studies have shown, the Northwest coast of Cuba has oil. Remember that Cuba is located at the Gulf basin as well. Currently, there are companies from various countries investing in the project. Also, the North coast of Cuba (between Havana and Varadero) has had pumps pumping oil for more that a decade (an agreement between Cuba and a Canadian Firm).

http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1853252,00.html

http://axisoflogic.com/artman/publish/Article_63778.shtml

http://www.miamiherald.com/2011/10/1...-spill-from-drilling-in-cuban.html


Regards,
Airliner777  
 
Bureaucromancer
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RE: Air Travel Between USA And Cuba Post-Embargo?

Fri Oct 21, 2011 8:24 pm

Quoting maxpower1954 (Reply 50):
Funny how this never seems to come up in the media anymore. Having said this, the embargo is probably the most important factor that has kept Castro in power. The U.S. has made a wonderful scapegoat to cover for the regime's failings, especially since the Soviets pulled their support over 20 years ago.

Really? It comes up from certain congressmen reasonably often, and that is probably the biggest difficult in lifting the embargo. At some point in the last few decades the embargo was made statutory, and would require congressional approval to remove without reparations being paid by Cuba. The president quite simply doesn't have the authority to lift it at this point.
 
Jonathanxxxx
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RE: Air Travel Between USA And Cuba Post-Embargo?

Fri Oct 21, 2011 8:43 pm

To come back on topic...
I think things will be like this after the embargo is lifted:

MIA-HAV
AA: 5X daily 757 (for cargo), 4X 738
DL: 3X daily 739 (by that time they should have them)
CU: 3X daily (?)

FLL-HAV
B6: 6X daily A320 (for cargo)
NK: 4X daily A320
WN: 3X daily 737 (by this time they should be flying internationally)

TPA-HAV
B6: 2X daily E-190
WN: 2X daily 737

ATL-HAV
DL: 2X daily 739
WN: 2X daily 737

CLT-HAV
US: 1-2X daily A320

IAD-HAV
UA: 2X daily A320

JFK-HAV
DL: 2X daily 739
AA: 2X daily 757
B6: 3X daily A321
CU: 2X daily (?)

BOS-HAV
B6: 1X daily A320

IAH-HAV
UA: 1X daily 739

DFW-HAV
AA: 2X daily 757

LAX-HAV
UA: 1X daily 757

ORD-HAV
UA: 2X daily A320
AA: 2X daily 738

DTW-HAV
DL: 1X daily A320

Along with service from some other Cuban airports...
MIA-VRA
AA: 3X daily 738

MIA-CCC
AA: 1X daily 738

MIA-SCU
AA: 2X daily 738

MIA-HOG
AA: 2X daily 738

MIA-CMW
AA: 1X daily 738

MIA-CFW
AA: 1X daily 738

FLL-VRA
NK: 1X daily 319
B6: 2X daily E190

FLL- SCU
NK: 1X daily 319
B6 2x daily E190

JFK-VRA
DL: 1X daily 738

Did I miss anything? 

Wow, that
 
avek00
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RE: Air Travel Between USA And Cuba Post-Embargo?

Sat Oct 22, 2011 1:45 am

I'd expect the Cubans to insist upon adherence to the pre-embargo Air Services Agreement, which limits the gateways and frequencies. It will take some time for the Cuban aviation sector to be able to compete equitably in the USA-Cuba market post-embargo elimination, and any new Cuban government would, IMHO, have a duty to engage in a reasonable degree of protectionism (such as enforcing most or all of the service restrictions) until such time that Cuba's airlines can compete equitably.
Live life to the fullest.
 
NathanH
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RE: Air Travel Between USA And Cuba Post-Embargo?

Sat Oct 22, 2011 2:00 am

Quoting aircanada014 (Reply 4):
Why don't you fly into Mexico or Canada then transfer onto cuba on AC or Aeromexico or even on Cubana?
there's your chance so you don't have to wait and tell the arrival guy not to stamp your passport.

I've heard another problem with doing that through Canada is that if the plane has a problem and has to divert to a US airport you are screwed.
 
flymia
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RE: Air Travel Between USA And Cuba Post-Embargo?

Sat Oct 22, 2011 4:34 am

Quoting MSYtristar (Reply 53):
Yep. Not a lot of love for MSY in this thread considering it was once a former HAV gateway and will once again have direct service to HAV in the not too distant future.

I would not expect MSY to have service to HAV. Maybe, I know they are allowed charters. But lets see how many charters they get out a month.

Quoting jonathanxxxx (Reply 62):
MIA-HAV
AA: 5X daily 757 (for cargo), 4X 738
DL: 3X daily 739 (by that time they should have them)
CU: 3X daily (?)

This seems about right. But maybe give AA a few more flights 2 or 3. At least in the first year or so the market would be crazy. 6am-10pm on the hour shuttle I see AA having no problem with.
"It was just four of us on the flight deck, trying to do our job" (Captain Al Haynes)
 
ocracoke
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RE: Air Travel Between USA And Cuba Post-Embargo?

Sat Oct 22, 2011 6:20 am

There are only 2 american based airlines that currently hold rights to fly scheduled USA-Cuba flights. Of those two, one has been around long enough to have actually flown scheduled flights to Cuba. The other has inherited rights to fly there via mergers, but has not flown scheduled flights to Cuba itself.
That one airline was flying to/though Cuba up until the revolution started, and had property/assets seized when the Castro regime took over. I don't think they were ever compensated for it. I'm sure they are in line with a bunch of other american businesses that had assets seized so long ago. If the embargo ever got lifted, there would have to be some serious negotiations between Cuba and the State Dept as to how these companies should be compensated for their seized assets. Including that one airline company.

All the other airlines will have to wait and see what happens until those issues are settled first. This day dream about other airlines suddenly jumping all over MIA-HAV, LAX-HAV, FLL-HAV, BOS-HAV, etc is just that....a day dream. Let's first wait and see what happens to the two airlines that currently have grandfathered, dormant, rights, before we dream of others jumping into an hourly MIA-HAV shuttle.

[Edited 2011-10-21 23:21:58]
 
bjorn14
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RE: Air Travel Between USA And Cuba Post-Embargo?

Sat Oct 22, 2011 11:18 am

Quoting jonathanxxxx (Reply 62):
Did I miss anything?

I think PBI-HAV and JAX-HAV could support 1x daily and of course MSY-HAV
"I want to know the voice of God the rest is just details" --A. Einstein
 
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United_fan
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RE: Air Travel Between USA And Cuba Post-Embargo?

Sat Oct 22, 2011 12:08 pm

What about Vision and SkyKing? Do they have any grand fathering?
"Suspicion is a matter of opinion"
 
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yellowtail
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RE: Air Travel Between USA And Cuba Post-Embargo?

Sat Oct 22, 2011 1:51 pm

Quoting maxpower1954 (Reply 17):
More like 3.5 or even 4 hours, which makes his staement even more off the wall.

Why is off the wall? people drive more than that right now all over the place to get a lower fare....I know couple people today driving 8 hours to CUN to save $100 on airfare.

I know people that drive from MAN to LON to catch the chunnel to paris...vs flying direct from MAN

If you are taking a lot of luggage...like the cubans do...with the baggage fees and if a ferry offered no bag fees....you would have many taking it.

WHat may be crazy to you is perfectly sane for others.
When in doubt, hold on to your altitude. No-one has ever collided with the sky.
 
DFWEagle
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RE: Air Travel Between USA And Cuba Post-Embargo?

Sat Oct 22, 2011 2:33 pm

Quoting ocracoke (Reply 66):
There are only 2 american based airlines that currently hold rights to fly scheduled USA-Cuba flights. Of those two, one has been around long enough to have actually flown scheduled flights to Cuba. The other has inherited rights to fly there via mergers, but has not flown scheduled flights to Cuba itself.
That one airline was flying to/though Cuba up until the revolution started, and had property/assets seized when the Castro regime took over. I don't think they were ever compensated for it. I'm sure they are in line with a bunch of other american businesses that had assets seized so long ago. If the embargo ever got lifted, there would have to be some serious negotiations between Cuba and the State Dept as to how these companies should be compensated for their seized assets. Including that one airline company.

It’s not as if airlines had major assets seized like some U.S. companies which lost entire oil refineries or huge stakes in Cuban businesses (electric, telecoms etc.). Seriously, exactly what property did U.S. airlines have taken from them? None are among the long list of U.S. companies and individuals with certified claims against Cuba of over $1 million, so I’m guessing it was not all that much.

Quoting ocracoke (Reply 66):
This day dream about other airlines suddenly jumping all over MIA-HAV, LAX-HAV, FLL-HAV, BOS-HAV, etc is just that....a day dream. Let's first wait and see what happens to the two airlines that currently have grandfathered, dormant, rights, before we dream of others jumping into an hourly MIA-HAV shuttle.

Personally, I think the day dreamers are the ones thinking a 1953-negotiated air treaty that was suspended 50+ years ago in the Cuban revolution will be resurrected and used again as a modern-day US-Cuba air services agreement.

I agree that the Cuban government would likely seek to restrict U.S. carrier service, but it will surely be through a new treaty that both addresses the modern aviation issues that did not exist when the old bilateral was signed (code-shares etc.) and takes into account the present-day needs for passengers of both nations in the US-Cuba market. The same thing happened when diplomatic relations with Vietnam were normalised and a new treaty was negotiated, regardless of dormant rights.

Regardless, the last USA-Cuba air services agreement (signed 1953, amended 1957) did not actually specify definitive frequency limits or limits on the number of U.S. carriers that could be designated to serve Cuba. It only restricted the city-pairs allowed by U.S. carriers to MIA-HAV, FLL-HAV, PBI-HAV, TPA-HAV, NYC-HAV, WAS-HAV, IAH-HAV, MSY-HAV and MIA-Camaguey, and any number of carriers could be designated on each route. As was common in that era, the treaty also said fares, capacity and designated airlines had to be approved by both governments and capacity should be in line with demand (no capacity dumping or loss-making fares).

Subject to Cuban approval, new carriers could be designated by the USA under the terms of the old bilateral. It’s worth noting also that the Cuban government would also have to approve the carrier you mentioned that inherited “grandfather rights” by merger/acquisition in the same way because the named and approved carrier has now gone.
Ryan in DFW
 
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Polot
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RE: Air Travel Between USA And Cuba Post-Embargo?

Sat Oct 22, 2011 3:15 pm

Quoting DFWEagle (Reply 70):
It’s not as if airlines had major assets seized like some U.S. companies which lost entire oil refineries or huge stakes in Cuban businesses (electric, telecoms etc.). Seriously, exactly what property did U.S. airlines have taken from them? None are among the long list of U.S. companies and individuals with certified claims against Cuba of over $1 million, so I’m guessing it was not all that much.

  

I doubt the airlines are going to get much compensation because they had traffic rights to Cuba over 50(!) years ago. Traffic rights have relaxed/changed everywhere in the past 50 years, to the benefit of some airlines, and to the detriment of others (including that one airline company). While they will no doubt ask for compensation or preference (because what company wouldn't?) they won't throw a temper tantrum and try to block all Cuba-US flights if everything doesn't go their way.
 
caribb
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RE: Air Travel Between USA And Cuba Post-Embargo?

Sat Oct 22, 2011 3:35 pm

Quoting automaticboy6 (Reply 27):
The service to Cuba out of YUL is incredible. Surprisingly, Havana is not one of the more popular destinations. This is the line up for weekly departures...

Varadero, 14 flights
Santa Clara, 7 flights
Holguin, 6 flights
Cayo Coco, 5 flights
Cayo Largo del Sur, 3 flights
Havana, 2 flights
Cienfuegos, 1 flights


Cubana is the only airline operating to Havana. If we are thinking resort destination wise, I don't think the demand will be that high from many airlines to HAV. Varadero on the other hand is operated by Air Canada, Air Transat, Canjet, Cubana, Sunwing, and Westjet. That may be US carriers first city.

You are quite right, Varadero is amazing.. one of the most spectacular big beaches I've ever seen... for sure this isthmus would be a prime destination.. however the airport is really small. I can't see it being able to handle a flood of new flights. The few times I went there Cuban, Canadian and European carriers were using all the available gate space at peak hours and there really wasn't a lot of room for immediate expansion. I suspect any new American arrivals will have to be slow at the beginning and with larger aircraft. The infrastructure there isn't prepared for a US onslaught. I hope I get back before the US lifts it's embargo so I can enjoy it's last days of relaxed tranquility.. once Americans start to come it will likely boom and change forever. It has all the ear marks of being another Cancun.
 
SXDFC
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RE: Air Travel Between USA And Cuba Post-Embargo?

Sat Oct 22, 2011 3:41 pm

IF this embargo was ever to be lifted, then what would happen to Cubana's fleet? Would they switch to Airbus and Boeing?
 
toltommy
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RE: Air Travel Between USA And Cuba Post-Embargo?

Sat Oct 22, 2011 5:02 pm

Were the communist regime to be toppled tomorrow and the island freed, wouldn't the current bilateral (the last one negotiated before the communists took over) be the document driving service? Until a new agreement could be negotiated, you might not see a lot of service.

The last agreement was negotiated in 1953, and allows for the following service by US carriers:

MIA-CMW-beyond
MIA-HAV-beyond
NYC and/or WAS-HAV-beyond
TPA/PIE-HAV-beyond (not and/or)
HOU and/or MSY-HAV-beyond

There was an amendment in 1957 which added PBI/FLL-HAV to the list.

Cuban designated carriers have access to the following:

HAV-MIA
VRD-MIA
HAV-NYC
HAV-EYW (note US carriers do not have this right)
HAV-PBI (no FLL access until 1957 amendment)
HAV-PIE (no TPA access)

Links to the agreements themselves can be found here:

http://www.state.gov/e/eeb/rls/othr/ata/c/cu/index.htm

I know DL held MSY-HAV rights, not sure about other carriers, especially after 50 years of mergers, etc....
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Superfly
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RE: Air Travel Between USA And Cuba Post-Embargo?

Sat Oct 22, 2011 5:24 pm

Quoting SXDFC (Reply 73):
IF this embargo was ever to be lifted, then what would happen to Cubana's fleet? Would they switch to Airbus and Boeing?

Their brand new IL-96s and TU-204s are just fine and can fly over US airspace.

Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 51):
Theres no oil in Cuba. Enough said.

There isn't much oil in China and Vietnam either and there is not an embargo on those countries.
Bring back the Concorde
 
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DeltaMD90
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RE: Air Travel Between USA And Cuba Post-Embargo?

Sat Oct 22, 2011 5:44 pm

Quoting TOLtommy (Reply 74):
-beyond

When I saw this, it just reeks of 1950s airline routing. I suspect that there would be a new treaty ratified because hardly any airline flies hub to x city to y city anymore... I'm sure the US would push for open skies but Cuba might try for something different...
 
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Polot
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RE: Air Travel Between USA And Cuba Post-Embargo?

Sat Oct 22, 2011 5:50 pm

Quoting Superfly (Reply 75):

Their brand new IL-96s and TU-204s are just fine and can fly over US airspace.

All 5 of them? Cubana will have to order something else to expand its fleet quickly.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 76):
When I saw this, it just reeks of 1950s airline routing. I suspect that there would be a new treaty ratified because hardly any airline flies hub to x city to y city anymore... I'm sure the US would push for open skies but Cuba might try for something different...

The US airlines would push for open skies, but that would kill Cubana, and I'm sure the Cubans are smart enough to know that, so restrictions will definitely be in place.
 
DFWEagle
Posts: 167
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RE: Air Travel Between USA And Cuba Post-Embargo?

Sat Oct 22, 2011 5:59 pm

Quoting TOLtommy (Reply 74):
I know DL held MSY-HAV rights

That’s right. I think Delta operated it as a daily Chicago-New Orleans-Havana-Montego Bay-Caracas flight.

Quoting TOLtommy (Reply 74):
not sure about other carriers, especially after 50 years of mergers, etc....

Just before the Cuban revolution, I think U.S. carriers operated the following air services to Cuba:

PanAm: 7x daily Miami-Havana
National: 1x daily New York-Havana
Delta: 1x daily New Orleans-Havana
Braniff: 2 weekly Houston-Havana

Immediately after the revolution, U.S. airlines were actually allowed to remain operating to Cuba, unlike most other American business in the country. However, the decline in traffic meant heavy reductions in frequency and the routes became financially unviable before the embargo was imposed. PanAm was the last U.S. carrier to serve Cuba.

[Edited 2011-10-22 11:01:32]
Ryan in DFW
 
maxpower1954
Posts: 1067
Joined: Thu Sep 25, 2008 1:14 am

RE: Air Travel Between USA And Cuba Post-Embargo?

Sun Oct 23, 2011 1:11 am

[quote=yellowtail,reply=69]Why is off the wall? people drive more than that right now all over the place to get a lower fare....I know couple people today driving 8 hours to CUN to save $100 on airfare.[/quote/]

And how much money do they spend on gas? Let's use some U.S. based numbers - 8 hours at 50 mph is around 400 miles.
Let's be generous at 25 mpg; that's 16 gallons. Let's also say around 5.00 dollars a gallon. That works out to 80 dollars. They have saved 20 bucks, provided they didn't spend money on food along the way. I'm for saving money, but unless gas for them is free, it isn't working.

But you are right if you have a ton of luggage, ect. Actually I drive if it's 600 miles or less, just for the reliabilty of actually getting there!

[Edited 2011-10-22 18:18:28]
 
maxpower1954
Posts: 1067
Joined: Thu Sep 25, 2008 1:14 am

RE: Air Travel Between USA And Cuba Post-Embargo?

Sun Oct 23, 2011 1:28 am

Quoting DFWEagle (Reply 78):
Just before the Cuban revolution, I think U.S. carriers operated the following air services to Cuba:

PanAm: 7x daily Miami-Havana
National: 1x daily New York-Havana
Delta: 1x daily New Orleans-Havana
Braniff: 2 weekly Houston-Havana

You can also add -

National: 4x daily MIA-HAV - CV-440, L-188 Electra and L-1049
National: 1x daily TPA-HAV - CV-440
 
toltommy
Posts: 2726
Joined: Tue Dec 09, 2003 9:04 am

RE: Air Travel Between USA And Cuba Post-Embargo?

Sun Oct 23, 2011 1:30 am

Quoting DFWEagle (Reply 78):
Braniff: 2 weekly Houston-Havana

Okay then who has the HOU-Cuba rights? If they came from BN, then I think they may have wound up being purchased by EA. Those authorities were purchased by AA, IIRC. DFW-HOU-HAV anyone?

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 76):
When I saw this, it just reeks of 1950s airline routing. I suspect that there would be a new treaty ratified because hardly any airline flies hub to x city to y city anymore... I'm sure the US would push for open skies but Cuba might try for something different...

True, but between when the government changes and a new treaty is ratified, guess what? The most recent agreement is in place. If the country were to become free, the beyond rights would help. There would be a massive influx of capital into Cuba (for example hotels and cruise lines). Cubana can't handle it all, so in the interim, US carriers may be flying north into HAV. I agree that an open skies agreement would be ideal, but it would have to be in exchange for those beyond rights.

Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 51):
Theres no oil in Cuba. Enough said.

There's all kinds of oil in the Straights of Florida between Cuba and the Keys. The Chinese have already entered into agreements to start drilling.
A300/A310/A319/A320/A321/A332/A333/707/712/727/732/733/734/735/738/739/752/753/762/763/764/772/789/DC8/DC9-10/30/40/50/MD81/83/87/88/90/L1011-/250/500/CRJ200/440/700/900/EMB135/140/145/170/175/190/328Jet/F70/SF3/BE1/J31
 
Viscount724
Posts: 19316
Joined: Thu Oct 12, 2006 7:32 pm

RE: Air Travel Between USA And Cuba Post-Embargo?

Sun Oct 23, 2011 2:13 am

Quoting DFWEagle (Reply 78):
Just before the Cuban revolution, I think U.S. carriers operated the following air services to Cuba:

PanAm: 7x daily Miami-Havana
National: 1x daily New York-Havana
Delta: 1x daily New Orleans-Havana
Braniff: 2 weekly Houston-Havana
Quoting DFWEagle (Reply 78):
Just before the Cuban revolution, I think U.S. carriers operated the following air services to Cuba:

PanAm: 7x daily Miami-Havana
National: 1x daily New York-Havana

In their January 1958 timetable, in addition to the 7 daily MIA-HAV flights, Pan Am had the following additional flights that stopped in Cuba en route to other points:

3 x week MIA-CMW (Camaguey)-KIN-BAQ-MAR (the BAQ-MAR sector was 2 x week)
3 x week MIA-HAV-SAL-GUA
2 x week MIA-HAV MID

In their September 1958 timetable, National also had 3 daily MIA-HAV and 1 daily TPA-HAV, in addition to the daily IDL-HAV.
 
Superfly
Posts: 37705
Joined: Thu May 11, 2000 8:01 am

RE: Air Travel Between USA And Cuba Post-Embargo?

Sun Oct 23, 2011 7:10 am

Quoting polot (Reply 77):
All 5 of them? Cubana will have to order something else to expand its fleet quickly.

You've got a good point. I forgot how small their fleet is. They do have 5 Yak42Ds and I'm sure they can still fly to the US.
It would be great if Cubana orders a lot more 20+ IL-96s and TU-204s as well as AN-148s before the embargo is lifted so they'll have a large new fleet of Russian/Ukrainian aircraft that meets current FAA standards to fly to the US.

Would be neat to see Cubana with a pre-embargo retro livery.  
Bring back the Concorde
 
DFWEagle
Posts: 167
Joined: Sat Dec 30, 2006 8:12 am

RE: Air Travel Between USA And Cuba Post-Embargo?

Sun Oct 23, 2011 12:17 pm

Quoting maxpower1954 (Reply 80):
Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 82):

Thanks for the additions guys, I guess I was rushing a bit too much when I looked them up!

Quoting TOLtommy (Reply 81):
Okay then who has the HOU-Cuba rights? If they came from BN, then I think they may have wound up being purchased by EA. Those authorities were purchased by AA, IIRC.

Definitely not AA. They never touched any of the Caribbean authorities held by Eastern, only those to Latin America.

Quoting Superfly (Reply 83):
It would be great if Cubana orders a lot more 20+ IL-96s and TU-204s as well as AN-148s before the embargo is lifted so they'll have a large new fleet of Russian/Ukrainian aircraft that meets current FAA standards to fly to the US.

Thinking about it, Cubana won't need to get all that many new planes to operate a decent U.S. schedule. The USA-Cuba market will be very heavily concentrated to Florida, (especially Miami), which is very close to Cuba. MIA-HAV is only 1 hour block time. I'm not sure how much service Cubana would want to operate, but if they ordered/leased just four A320s or 737s for example (or equivalent Russian models!), they could operate quite a robust schedule of 8x MIA-HAV, 2x JFK-HAV, 2x TPA-HAV.
Ryan in DFW
 
Superfly
Posts: 37705
Joined: Thu May 11, 2000 8:01 am

RE: Air Travel Between USA And Cuba Post-Embargo?

Sun Oct 23, 2011 3:34 pm

Quoting DFWEagle (Reply 84):
The USA-Cuba market will be very heavily concentrated to Florida, (especially Miami), which is very close to Cuba.

That is true about the Cuban American population heavily concentrated in Miami metro but there are millions of Americans that want to visit but will not do it until the embargo is lifted. What cities in the US has the most traffic to the Caribbean?
New York, Chicago, Atlanta and Los Angeles comes to mind.

Quoting DFWEagle (Reply 84):
if they ordered/leased just four A320s or 737s for example

True but that would be so bland from a spotters point of view.
  
The equivalent Ukrainian/Russian model is the Yak-42D.



Speaking of Cubana, anyone know when they'll receive their first AN-148?
Cubana was supposed to be the launch customer but Aerosvit and Rossiya are already operating them.
Bring back the Concorde
 
XXXX10
Posts: 707
Joined: Mon Jan 03, 2000 7:10 am

RE: Air Travel Between USA And Cuba Post-Embargo?

Sun Oct 23, 2011 8:52 pm

If MIA -HAV is only a 30 minute flight, wouldn't an airline like AA reconfigure their aircraft to a high density layout.
A 763 could hold about 340 passengers and a 777 can hold 419
 
nostrum
Posts: 34
Joined: Sat Jul 16, 2011 5:21 pm

RE: Air Travel Between USA And Cuba Post-Embargo?

Sun Oct 23, 2011 10:54 pm

Quoting Superfly (Reply 85):
Speaking of Cubana, anyone know when they'll receive their first AN-148?

Supposely 2012; although the order doesn't appear at the IFC website (Ilyushin Finance Company). All the other aircraft financed to Cuba from the IFC appear in their website.
 
Arrow
Posts: 2325
Joined: Wed Jun 19, 2002 7:44 am

RE: Air Travel Between USA And Cuba Post-Embargo?

Sun Oct 23, 2011 11:37 pm

Quoting ZKEOJ (Reply 32):
still dangerous for American citizens! I once checked in at YYZ, and saw Amercian immigration officers walk up and down the queue at check-in for a SkyService flight to Cuba, asking for passports.

I find that hard to swallow. US border folks have very limited authority at pre-clearance areas in Canadian airports, and they have zero authority anywhere else in the airport. If they were asking to see passports in that line, someone should have called the cops and had them removed.

Quoting flymia (Reply 39):
I doubt Canada and/or Canadian Airlines want to be responsible for transporting Americans to Cuba if something were to happen there etc.. The airlines know where they are from.

Canada and Canadian airlines couldn't care less, and I suspect tens of thousands of Americans have visited Cuba this way over the decades. I think maybe the danger now is that AC and other airlines have to give passenger lists to US authorities for flights over US territory. That might cause an American to sweat a little.

That embargo is the single biggest reason that Castro has lasted this long. Hard to believe the US has stuck with it this long with so little to show for it.
Never let the facts get in the way of a good story.
 
Cubsrule
Posts: 14180
Joined: Sat May 15, 2004 12:13 pm

RE: Air Travel Between USA And Cuba Post-Embargo?

Mon Oct 24, 2011 1:52 am

Quoting Arrow (Reply 88):
That might cause an American to sweat a little.

Of course, the American who is really hellbent on going to Cuba and yet will sweat this issue can just transit Mexico or Central America.
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
 
peteinmiami
Posts: 175
Joined: Tue Mar 16, 2004 12:09 am

RE: Air Travel Between USA And Cuba Post-Embargo?

Mon Oct 24, 2011 9:36 pm

Quoting Superfly (Reply 83):
It would be great if Cubana orders a lot more 20+ IL-96s and TU-204s as well as AN-148s before the embargo is lifted so they'll have a large new fleet of Russian/Ukrainian aircraft that meets current FAA standards to fly to the US.

Cubana, keep on ordering Russian made planes because they are the only ones they can buy because of the embargo, but not by preference. I expect that as soon as the Embargo is lifted and Cubana get access to proper financing, then we will see the Russian planes go.

Quoting Superfly (Reply 85):
That is true about the Cuban American population heavily concentrated in Miami metro but there are millions of Americans that want to visit but will not do it until the embargo is lifted. What cities in the US has the most traffic to the Caribbean?
New York, Chicago, Atlanta and Los Angeles comes to mind

I will say Cubana at least initially will go more after the Cuban American and Cuban tourist traffic, that somehow relate more to Cuba than the American tourists that heavily depend and prefer American companies.
 
Bureaucromancer
Posts: 113
Joined: Tue Feb 02, 2010 3:17 am

RE: Air Travel Between USA And Cuba Post-Embargo?

Tue Oct 25, 2011 6:00 am

Quoting peteinmiami (Reply 90):
I will say Cubana at least initially will go more after the Cuban American and Cuban tourist traffic, that somehow relate more to Cuba than the American tourists that heavily depend and prefer American companies.

Definitely an accurate assessment. Cubana does essentially no marketing within the Canadian market, and we are quite consistently served with A320s.
 
Superfly
Posts: 37705
Joined: Thu May 11, 2000 8:01 am

RE: Air Travel Between USA And Cuba Post-Embargo?

Tue Oct 25, 2011 7:25 am

Quoting peteinmiami (Reply 90):
Cubana, keep on ordering Russian made planes because they are the only ones they can buy because of the embargo, but not by preference. I expect that as soon as the Embargo is lifted and Cubana get access to proper financing, then we will see the Russian planes go.

That is true. The Castro days are numbered. I'm sure they would still use the IL-96 and TU-204 until the Airbus or Boeing aircraft come onboard. Wouldn't make any sense to ground 5 brand new aircraft.

Quoting Bureaucromancer (Reply 91):
Cubana does essentially no marketing within the Canadian market,

What country is this Cubana commercial aired in?
My guess would be Argentina or Spain.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H8DwCmkvtrQ

Quoting Bureaucromancer (Reply 91):
and we are quite consistently served with A320s.

I've read some horror stories from an enthusiast point of view that the IL-96 is commonly substituted with a 767 or A330. Is there a way to know for sure which aircraft would be used if someone wanted to buy a ticket to fly their IL-96?
Bring back the Concorde
 
ptugarin
Posts: 214
Joined: Sun Sep 03, 2006 6:09 am

RE: Air Travel Between USA And Cuba Post-Embargo?

Tue Oct 25, 2011 9:20 pm

Quoting jonathanxxxx (Reply 62):
Did I miss anything? 

Wow, that

I would think, B6 will connect JFK and BOS to more destinations
 
termbewr
Posts: 55
Joined: Wed Oct 19, 2011 2:19 am

RE: Air Travel Between USA And Cuba Post-Embargo?

Wed Oct 26, 2011 12:29 pm

Quoting jonathanxxxx (Reply 62):
Did I miss anything?



I would add UA EWR - HAV to list. There is a large Cuban population in Northern NJ.
 
IADLHR
Posts: 612
Joined: Wed Apr 27, 2005 10:25 pm

RE: Air Travel Between USA And Cuba Post-Embargo?

Wed Oct 26, 2011 1:48 pm

Quoting United_fan (Reply 8):
I wouldn't get too excited about the embargo being lifted....as long as a Castro is in charge ,I dont see anything happening.

Exactly. In addition, does anybody really know what will happen, when Castro passes away? Will there be some kind of unrest between his followers and those that want democracy.

What is the situation involving the airport infrastructure in Cuba? Is it up to standards compared to other islands?

Will an air treaty have to be negotiated, or, as some people, think, perhaps, the treaty that was in place before Castro came to power be the one that will be in effect, at least, temporarily?

Lastly, how are the hotels, restaurants, the tourist infrastructre compared to the other islands? I certainly think they would have to be brought up to standadrs comapred to other islands. From what I have heard, and read, there may not be too much of an issue with hotels.

Having said all that, I do think, witrhout question, that cruise ships will stop i in great numbers, in Cuba long before there is a tremendous increaee of a great number of toruists, by air from the US.
 
delta2ual
Posts: 558
Joined: Mon Dec 03, 2007 11:18 pm

RE: Air Travel Between USA And Cuba Post-Embargo?

Wed Oct 26, 2011 2:12 pm

Quoting Bureaucromancer (Reply 40):
Whatever we may say about Cubana being limited in capabilities, it would be fun to see the inevitable use of IL-92s on MIA-HAV.

That would be cool! 
Quoting AirbusA6 (Reply 49):
glad I can visit Cuba before it gets swamped with Americans 

You got that right! LOL

Quoting Arrow (Reply 88):
I find that hard to swallow. US border folks have very limited authority at pre-clearance areas in Canadian airports, and they have zero authority anywhere else in the airport. If they were asking to see passports in that line, someone should have called the cops and had them removed.

I find it incredibly hard to believe that US border patrol/Customs officers would leave their post, on their own, and decide to check passports all over the airport. I'm sure the US & Canada have agreed to allow these officials to check people going to Cuba to see if they are American (thus violating the law). If a Canadian (or any other citizen) refused to show their passport, they would be within their right. But, the officers could just ask a Canadian official to do it for them.

Quoting Superfly (Reply 92):
That is true. The Castro days are numbered.

Yes, but isn't his brother going to take over? Is he a different type of Castro? LOL
From the world's largest airline-to the world's largest airline. Delta2ual
 
Cubsrule
Posts: 14180
Joined: Sat May 15, 2004 12:13 pm

RE: Air Travel Between USA And Cuba Post-Embargo?

Wed Oct 26, 2011 2:18 pm

Quoting IADLHR (Reply 95):
Having said all that, I do think, witrhout question, that cruise ships will stop i in great numbers, in Cuba long before there is a tremendous increaee of a great number of toruists, by air from the US.

  

I wonder, too, whether there might be a market for a high speed ferry MIA-HAV (or EYW-HAV). By the time a passenger screws around with Customs at MIA, flying wouldn't be much of a time saver.
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
 
Superfly
Posts: 37705
Joined: Thu May 11, 2000 8:01 am

RE: Air Travel Between USA And Cuba Post-Embargo?

Wed Oct 26, 2011 2:19 pm

Quoting IADLHR (Reply 95):
What is the situation involving the airport infrastructure in Cuba?

Jose Marti International has less potholes than LaGuardia.   

Quoting delta2ual (Reply 96):
Yes, but isn't his brother going to take over? Is he a different type of Castro? LOL

Castro's brother is also a Castro.  
When I said;"The Castro days are numbered", I was including his younger brother Raul as well.
Bring back the Concorde
 
kamloops
Posts: 134
Joined: Thu Nov 18, 2010 6:43 pm

RE: Air Travel Between USA And Cuba Post-Embargo?

Wed Oct 26, 2011 2:58 pm

As a Canadian Travel Agent,


We are sending a lot of Canadians to Cuba now,

The major theme from my clients is that they want to go before Cuba is "Americanized" .

Personally and proffesionally, I hope that it take 2+ years for them to gain access,

Will then decrease demand for other warm destinations, and allow me to send Canadians to non-cuba Caribbean destinations.

I know that with Cuba gaining access to the American food market, the quality of food product will increase in Cuba.

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