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CRJ900X
Topic Author
Posts: 144
Joined: Sun Dec 24, 2006 12:47 am

Will BBD Sell Any More Planes In 2011?

Sat Oct 22, 2011 1:47 pm

Just going through the press releases from Bombardier for 2011, the number of airlines that ordered the Q400/CRJ series is just dismal.

Q400
Luxair - 4 x Q400
Porter - 2 X Q400

CRJ
SkyWest Airlines - 4 x CRJ700
PLUNA 3 x CRJ900

With only 2 months left in the year, can things be turned around or is the remainder of the year going to be just as poor?

The only competition that I know is ongoing is to supply the Indonesian flag-carrier Garuda with either the Embraer 190/195 or the CRJ1000. Any insiders have any information on whether this is an order Bombardier can actually win or is this another one for Embraer?

What about any top-up orders from a Delta affiliate for further CRJ700/900's?

The Q400 should be able to find more buyers, as this program seems to be better placed in the market and the only competition is ATR. I could see carriers like Jazz air, Spicejet and Colgan (Pinnacle) expanding their fleets, but any other possible Q400 competitions in the pipeline?

Also, why hasn't the Q400 been more popular with leasing companies. The model currently has almost 400 in operation in the world, but none of the major lessors have ordered the airline.

Any information on active campaigns would be most appreciative.

Cheers,
CRJ900X
 
connies4ever
Posts: 3393
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RE: Will BBD Sell Any More Planes In 2011?

Sat Oct 22, 2011 3:30 pm

I think early in 2012 Porter will order more Q400s to support their YTZ-Reagan service (this requires customs pre-clearance), probably 4 more. They are also talking about opening up routes from YOW & YUL that bypass YTZ.

CSeries orders, maybe Gulf Air, but I think the bulk of orders will come in 2012 when the a/c is actually flying. The CRJ10090 in my view was a mistake as it is scoped out in North America, and I think only Brit Air and Air Nostrum have purchased. Might not cover its' costs.
Nostalgia isn't what it used to be.
 
WestJet747
Posts: 1950
Joined: Sat Aug 06, 2011 7:43 pm

RE: Will BBD Sell Any More Planes In 2011?

Sat Oct 22, 2011 4:14 pm

The numbers are terrible, but I believe the backlog is sustainable through fiscal 2012 at this rate. Here is the most recent Q400 program status report.

I think this unexpected slowdown could be as efforts are ramped up on entering the CSeries into service. I know that they have been giving it 110% on getting those sales so it may have had a negative impact on other lines.

Quoting connies4ever (Reply 1):
I think early in 2012 Porter will order more Q400s

   I see this happening as well. Let's just hope they don't outgrow their means.

Quoting connies4ever (Reply 1):
their YTZ-Reagan service (this requires customs pre-clearance)

From what I hear, pre-clearance at YTZ is a long ways away. So if PD is heading into Washington next year it looks like it's going to be IAD, unfortunately.

Quoting connies4ever (Reply 1):
They are also talking about opening up routes from YOW & YUL that bypass YTZ.

I haven't heard this! I think it would be a great idea. They would have to put up with strong AC competition on this route. But it is certainly viable using PD's pricing model since AC currently offers service YUL-YOW starting at $205 (operated by Jazz using Dash-100/300, CRJ-100/200/705, and 1 AC flight with ERJ190), or you can connect in YYZ starting at $168.
Flying refined.
 
baje427
Posts: 849
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RE: Will BBD Sell Any More Planes In 2011?

Sat Oct 22, 2011 7:07 pm

From earlier post many have pointed out the high cost and that the Q400 is more fuel thirsty than the ATR as reasons why its sales relative to the ATR have been poor. In comparison 2011 has been one of the best for the ATR series
 
planemaker
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Joined: Mon Aug 25, 2003 12:53 pm

RE: Will BBD Sell Any More Planes In 2011?

Sat Oct 22, 2011 7:52 pm

Quoting CRJ900X (Thread starter):
With only 2 months left in the year, can things be turned around or is the remainder of the year going to be just as poor?

For BBD there is actually 3 more months as their financial year end is January.

Quoting connies4ever (Reply 1):
but I think the bulk of orders will come in 2012 when the a/c is actually flying.

Lately there has been an increase in articles mentioning that there is a risk to the schedule. An example from the Montreal Gazette...

Bombardier risks missing CSeries' 2013 delivery date
Nationalism is an infantile disease. It is the measles of mankind. - A. Einstein
 
YXXMIKE
Posts: 171
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RE: Will BBD Sell Any More Planes In 2011?

Sat Oct 22, 2011 8:11 pm

Could we see AC/Express looking at a top up and start replacing the props out west? It would be nice to see some Q400's in YVR heading to SEA instead of the 100/200's.
 
challengerdan
Posts: 145
Joined: Sat Sep 27, 2003 3:17 pm

RE: Will BBD Sell Any More Planes In 2011?

Sat Oct 22, 2011 8:36 pm

Quoting planemaker (Reply 4):
For BBD there is actually 3 more months as their financial year end is January.

Not since they changed from GAAP reporting to IFRS standards. Their fiscal year is now January to December.
if your flight goes MX in YUL, I might be called to fix it!
 
queb
Posts: 1026
Joined: Tue Jun 01, 2010 3:10 am

RE: Will BBD Sell Any More Planes In 2011?

Sat Oct 22, 2011 8:44 pm

Quoting planemaker (Reply 4):
For BBD there is actually 3 more months as their financial year end is January.

Now it's december 31th

http://ir.bombardier.com/en/event-ca...fiscal-year-ended-december-31-2011

Quoting baje427 (Reply 3):
2011 has been one of the best for the ATR

Not one of the best, THE best.

Recently, Bombardier's Chet Fuller (Senior VP, sales & marketing) predicts 30-CRJ order in North America by April 2012

http://youtu.be/0zXcXjTZwXA
 
CRJ900
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RE: Will BBD Sell Any More Planes In 2011?

Sat Oct 22, 2011 9:05 pm

Quoting queb (Reply 7):
Recently, Bombardier's Chet Fuller (Senior VP, sales & marketing) predicts 30-CRJ order in North America by April 2012

Skywest airlines topping up their huge CR7 fleet, perhaps? 76-seat CRJ900 flying sounds like it is maxed out at DL.
Come, fly the prevailing winds with me
 
baje427
Posts: 849
Joined: Mon Aug 01, 2011 12:42 am

RE: Will BBD Sell Any More Planes In 2011?

Sat Oct 22, 2011 10:35 pm

Do you guys see any potential for the Q to gain significant orders next year.
 
joelyboy911
Posts: 119
Joined: Sun Oct 18, 2009 2:45 am

RE: Will BBD Sell Any More Planes In 2011?

Sat Oct 22, 2011 10:53 pm

The ATR-72, on the types of routes that these turboprops are being deployed on, is thoroughly outclassing the Q400. Add the fact that the Q400 no longer has a smaller sibling for fleets where ~50 seats are needed, and you begin to see that the Q400 is a bit of an orphan, and its only real prospects for more sales are with existing operators.

IMO they would have been better to stretch the Q400 but maintain engine commonality with the earlier Dash-8s, thus ensuring high fuel-efficiency and the future of the aircraft as a family, despite the decrease in speed. Speed isn't a factor on most routes operated by turboprops. This is probably its' only real advantage over the ATR, and has seen sales limited to certain niche carriers.

To cut a long story short: Bombardier had better get to pushing the C-Series.
Flown: NZ, NY, SJ, QF, UA, AC, EI, BE, TP, AF
 
CRJ 900
Posts: 559
Joined: Mon Mar 12, 2001 4:41 am

RE: Will BBD Sell Any More Planes In 2011?

Sun Oct 23, 2011 3:53 am

I would personally luv to see a shrink of the Q400 to 50 seats. I agree that the program is limited as is. I'm very surprised that Jazz went with the Q400, I thought the ATR 600 series was gonna win the order. Our older Dash "classics" are indeed getting "long in the tooth" and eventually will have to be replaced and we need a 40-50seat aircraft for a lot of our AC flying. Since we operate the Q400 as a separate type from the other Dash8's, maybe we could see the ATR42-600 come our way yet??  
 
connies4ever
Posts: 3393
Joined: Sat Feb 25, 2006 10:54 pm

RE: Will BBD Sell Any More Planes In 2011?

Sun Oct 23, 2011 6:32 am

Quoting WestJet747 (Reply 2):
I haven't heard this! I think it would be a great idea

Referenced in this article: http://www.theglobeandmail.com/repor...es-only-blue-skies/article2209865/

Deluce notes that PD is getting a nice chunk of change from AC for renting terminal space and services. Ironic.

Quoting WestJet747 (Reply 2):
From what I hear, pre-clearance at YTZ is a long ways away. So if PD is heading into Washington next year it looks like it's going to be IAD, unfortunately.

Which wouldn't fit with PD's business model, flying into the most convenient airport available. So they'd wait until pre-clearance is done.

Quoting planemaker (Reply 4):
Bombardier risks missing CSeries' 2013 delivery date

Interesting article.

Quoting YXXMIKE (Reply 5):
Could we see AC/Express looking at a top up and start replacing the props out west?

Maybe, QK do still have 15 Q400 options. Spotting a few out west for longer, thin routes would highlight the Q's speed.
Nostalgia isn't what it used to be.
 
User avatar
LOWS
Posts: 1335
Joined: Sun Oct 23, 2011 5:37 am

RE: Will BBD Sell Any More Planes In 2011?

Sun Oct 23, 2011 6:47 am

It would be nice to see OS buy some more to replace the F70s and maybe improve frequency ex-FRA.
 
WestJet747
Posts: 1950
Joined: Sat Aug 06, 2011 7:43 pm

RE: Will BBD Sell Any More Planes In 2011?

Sun Oct 23, 2011 7:03 am

Quoting connies4ever (Reply 12):
Which wouldn't fit with PD's business model, flying into the most convenient airport available. So they'd wait until pre-clearance is done.

Absolutely correct. But since rumours are giving way to PD commencing service into either Washington or PHL in fiscal 2012, it looks like that favourite is now PHL.

But sticking with the purpose of the thread......regardless of future destinations, PD's growth could only mean good things for Bombardier. I guess it helps that Billy Bishop is the closest commercial airport to Bombardier's testing facilities, I'm sure Deluce makes frequent visits!  
Flying refined.
 
planemaker
Posts: 5411
Joined: Mon Aug 25, 2003 12:53 pm

RE: Will BBD Sell Any More Planes In 2011?

Sun Oct 23, 2011 8:43 am

Quoting challengerdan (Reply 6):
Not since they changed from GAAP reporting to IFRS standards. Their fiscal year is now January to December.
Quoting queb (Reply 7):
Now it's december 31th

Yes, you are correct, BBD changed to reporting BA financials to IFSR standards this year, however, the BOD still has to approve the change, a presumed formality, for it to take effect and the BOD meeting is not until December.

Quoting joelyboy911 (Reply 10):
To cut a long story short: Bombardier had better get to pushing the C-Series.

They are but as this article indicates, Economy may delay CSeries orders, the economy among several other factors are making it difficult to get sales traction.
Nationalism is an infantile disease. It is the measles of mankind. - A. Einstein
 
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aerorobnz
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RE: Will BBD Sell Any More Planes In 2011?

Sun Oct 23, 2011 9:30 am

They need to get about working on that Q400 fuel burn rate, In these times fuel burn is probably the first criteria on any airline's list. There are carriers now that would prefer a slightly less suitable aircraft as far as size/commonality in their fleet if it means their fleet burns less fuel. the ATR72-600 easily beats the Q400 in efficiency and as a result is collecting the orders.
Flown to 147 Airports in 62 Countries on 83 Operators and counting. Wanderlust is like Syphilis, once you have the itch it's too late for treatment.

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