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B747-4U3
Posts: 617
Joined: Fri Jan 04, 2002 8:08 am

RE: KLM To Fly Nonstop AMS To Taipei?

Wed Oct 26, 2011 3:23 am

Quoting BrouAviation (Reply 48):
Yeah, but at least they give you a generous 34" of seatpitch back.

Not any more. Most of EK's 777s have been reconfigured to a 32" pitch with a 3-4-3 layout. I flew LHR-DXB-CGK return last year with all flights on a 77W and it was most certainly a 32" pitch on all legs. It was bearable - indeed my friend didn't even notice the difference with the 3-4-3 config.



Quoting LondonCity (Reply 46):

Quoting kl911 (Reply 45):
Well, there are large Indonesian populations in the UK and US. They would also benefit from a onestop flight on KL to CGK.

Correct. But taking KL via AMS still involves an indirect routing. Bear in mind that there are other options to JKT/DPS out of the UK with indirect carriers like SQ, TG, MH, EK, EY and QR.

The only advantage KL would have over the other airlines is the ability to connect to more (mostly secondary) cities in Europe. A non-stop AMS-CGK flight will be little benefit of those living in London for example, as a one-stop service is already possible on the whole range of airlines that you have suggested, who more often than not offer very competitive pricing.



Quoting HB-IWC (Reply 50):
Last thing I heard about this was two weeks ago, so I presume that your updated information is the correct one. I also presume that KLM will load an aircraft change for AMS HKG MNL or add extra AMS HKG terminator capacity.

I presume that would mean that 889/890 would continue to MNL and we would either see capacity up-gauged to meet the extra demand for MNL pax or the return of the old flight times several days per week (Afternoon AMS departure / Lunchtime HKG departure)?
 
vincewy
Posts: 533
Joined: Mon Oct 03, 2005 8:32 am

RE: KLM To Fly Nonstop AMS To Taipei?

Wed Oct 26, 2011 4:55 am

Quoting TGV (Reply 51):
Quoting B747-4U3 (Reply 53):
Not any more. Most of EK's 777s have been reconfigured to a 32" pitch with a 3-4-3 layout. I flew LHR-DXB-CGK return last year with all flights on a 77W and it was most certainly a 32" pitch on all legs. It was bearable - indeed my friend didn't even notice the difference with the 3-4-3 config.

It must be this 2-class configuration then,

http://www.seatguru.com/airlines/Emi...rlines_Boeing_777-300ER_2class.php

Good god, I'm starting to think 3X5X3 on A380 is a matter of when, not if. Will EK consider offering premium economy like AF? At least you'll have an option for more space. C class is sometimes 10 times more than Y.
 
HB-IWC
Posts: 4109
Joined: Fri Sep 22, 2000 1:09 am

RE: KLM To Fly Nonstop AMS To Taipei?

Wed Oct 26, 2011 5:22 am

Quoting B747-4U3 (Reply 53):
I presume that would mean that 889/890 would continue to MNL and we would either see capacity up-gauged to meet the extra demand for MNL pax or the return of the old flight times several days per week (Afternoon AMS departure / Lunchtime HKG departure)?

For the MNL tag, that will definitely be the current KL889/890 being extended to MNL in the late afternoon with an evening turn around there. I presume that just a daily B74E will not suffice to cater to both markets so either this flight will be upgauged to something larger (B744, B772ER, B77W) or KLM may restore the old KL887/888 with daylight return on at least a couple of days of the week to provide additional capacity to HKG.
 
aznmadsci
Posts: 1646
Joined: Tue Dec 18, 2007 8:02 pm

RE: KLM To Fly Nonstop AMS To Taipei?

Wed Oct 26, 2011 6:15 am

Quoting HB-IWC (Reply 55):
the MNL tag

Will KL have 5th freedom rights for HKG-MNL tag?
The journey of life is not based on the accomplishments, but the experience.
 
coolfish1103
Posts: 220
Joined: Thu Feb 28, 2008 9:36 am

RE: KLM To Fly Nonstop AMS To Taipei?

Wed Oct 26, 2011 6:40 am

I don't see KLM starting AMS-TPE v.v. direct flight unless they have rights to fly over Chinese airspace like how they flew to Xiamen. Airlines in Taiwan still have no rights to fly across China (other than passing through South China to South East Asia) so it's been a burden for them to try to keep European flights profitable (with the extra 2-4 hours of flying time even nonstop). KLM obviously should not start a direct flight unless they can overfly China, which shouldn't be a problem really cause it's not making a stop in China.

Markets in Taiwan is not as Business friendly but is obviously better than the markets that the Philippines can provide in terms of the revenue passengers one group can bring. By having a direct service from Amsterdam to Taipei 4 times a week will cut down the existing 7 weekly flights via Bangkok and provide cooperative environments between China Airlines and KLM in terms of Skyteam operations. Even if all the flights were only 20% tag along to TPE, 20%(7 weekly of CI + 7 weekly of KL) = roughly 2.8 weekly (or 3) direct flights. By adding the flights to 4 (3+1) will cater to passengers who wants to fly direct (weren't there before) and create additional revenues by taking passengers away from HKG, NRT, and ICN and link Skyteam hubs together.

In this case, CI and KL will continue to book passengers 100% on AMS-BKK v.v. sector and CI will take over KL's share of BKK-TPE v.v. to reduce the additional capacities provided by both airlines. Win win situations for both once codeshare are implemented between the two on the triangular route (AMS-TPE-BKK-AMS).
 
Akiestar
Posts: 974
Joined: Wed May 06, 2009 6:51 am

RE: KLM To Fly Nonstop AMS To Taipei?

Wed Oct 26, 2011 7:38 am

Quoting aznmadsci (Reply 56):
Will KL have 5th freedom rights for HKG-MNL tag?

I wouldn't know the specifics of this case, but AMS-MNL used to be routed via KUL and BKK, so I can presume KL has fifth-freedom rights under the Philippines-Netherlands bilateral.
 
flythere
Posts: 207
Joined: Sat May 22, 2010 3:24 pm

RE: KLM To Fly Nonstop AMS To Taipei?

Wed Oct 26, 2011 9:48 am

Quoting Akiestar (Reply 58):
I wouldn't know the specifics of this case, but AMS-MNL used to be routed via KUL and BKK, so I can presume KL has fifth-freedom rights under the Philippines-Netherlands bilateral.

AFAIK, no 5th freedom via HKG would be granted.
 
B747-4U3
Posts: 617
Joined: Fri Jan 04, 2002 8:08 am

RE: KLM To Fly Nonstop AMS To Taipei?

Wed Oct 26, 2011 10:09 am

Quoting vincewy (Reply 54):
It must be this 2-class configuration then,

http://www.seatguru.com/airlines/Emi...rlines_Boeing_777-300ER_2class.php

See this website which explains the seats in a bit more detail:

http://www.seatplans.com/airlines/Emirates/classes/Economy-4

In short, even if you manage to get on one of the ULR 777s (with the first class suites) you may end up in a seat with just 32" pitch as the seat pitch varies throughout the aircraft. I know that one of the aircraft that I went on was a ULR and the seat that I chose was definitely not 34".
 
BrouAviation
Posts: 280
Joined: Fri Jun 05, 2009 6:31 am

RE: KLM To Fly Nonstop AMS To Taipei?

Wed Oct 26, 2011 10:43 am

Quoting B747-4U3 (Reply 60):
In short, even if you manage to get on one of the ULR 777s (with the first class suites) you may end up in a seat with just 32" pitch as the seat pitch varies throughout the aircraft.

I don't really get what point you are trying to prove. Yes, seatpitch varies throughout the cabin. But the simple fact is EK has 305 seats in a place where KL has 350. Do the math.
Never ask somebody if he's a pilot. If he is, he will let you know soon enough!
 
B747-4U3
Posts: 617
Joined: Fri Jan 04, 2002 8:08 am

RE: KLM To Fly Nonstop AMS To Taipei?

Wed Oct 26, 2011 11:41 am

Quoting BrouAviation (Reply 61):
Quoting B747-4U3 (Reply 60):
In short, even if you manage to get on one of the ULR 777s (with the first class suites) you may end up in a seat with just 32" pitch as the seat pitch varies throughout the aircraft.

I don't really get what point you are trying to prove. Yes, seatpitch varies throughout the cabin. But the simple fact is EK has 305 seats in a place where KL has 350. Do the math.

The point I am trying to make is that people seem to think that Emirates trade off having a 3-4-3 configuration by offering extra legroom. This is not necessarily the case. I think it is clear from my posts that that is the point I am making.

Furthermore, EK is not necessarily putting 305 seats where KL has 350. It depends on the configuration. On the KL 77W there are a total of 390 Economy (31") and Economy Comfort (34") seats. EK have a configuration where they have 385 seats in that space (all economy) and according to their website another configuration with 400 seats in that very same space. So the maths doesn't look so good after all.
 
BrouAviation
Posts: 280
Joined: Fri Jun 05, 2009 6:31 am

RE: KLM To Fly Nonstop AMS To Taipei?

Wed Oct 26, 2011 11:51 am

Quoting B747-4U3 (Reply 62):
Furthermore, EK is not necessarily putting 305 seats where KL has 350. It depends on the configuration. On the KL 77W there are a total of 390 Economy (31") and Economy Comfort (34") seats. EK have a configuration where they have 385 seats in that space (all economy) and according to their website another configuration with 400 seats in that very same space. So the maths doesn't look so good after all.
http://www.seatguru.com/airlines/KLM/KLM_Boeing_777-300ER.php

KLM's seating, offering 350 seats from the trailing edge of the wing right to the rear of the cabin.

http://www.seatguru.com/airlines/Emi...rlines_Boeing_777-300ER_3class.php

EK's seating, offering 304 seats in almost the same space.

Now, EK's economy class starts about one row further to the rear of the cabin. So let's remove 10 seats from KL's score. That makes 340 seats in the exact same space EK offers only 304. That again means about 12% more legroom you get with EK over KL. KL offers 31". So according to that number, EK should offer 34,67" in the 3-class 77W..
Now, the real difference won't be that big as there are always differences due to lavs and cabin lay-out and the seatpitch will vary throughout the cabin. But the difference is more than significant none the less..
Never ask somebody if he's a pilot. If he is, he will let you know soon enough!
 
BrouAviation
Posts: 280
Joined: Fri Jun 05, 2009 6:31 am

RE: KLM To Fly Nonstop AMS To Taipei?

Wed Oct 26, 2011 12:58 pm

Quoting BrouAviation (Reply 63):
trailing edge

Too late to edit, but that should of course say 'leading edge´,
Never ask somebody if he's a pilot. If he is, he will let you know soon enough!
 
B747-4U3
Posts: 617
Joined: Fri Jan 04, 2002 8:08 am

RE: KLM To Fly Nonstop AMS To Taipei?

Wed Oct 26, 2011 1:35 pm

Quoting BrouAviation (Reply 63):

I am not disagreeing with what you say, as that may be true of the configuration you are comparing.

Now compare this EK 77W 2 class configuration:

http://www.seatguru.com/airlines/Emi...rlines_Boeing_777-300ER_2class.php

with the KL 77W configuration:

http://www.seatguru.com/airlines/KLM/KLM_Boeing_777-300ER.php

After door 2, Emirates have 385 seats ( according to the website they also have a configuration with 400 seats after door 2).

After door 2, KLM have 390 seats (350 economy class + 40 economy comfort).

So in the same space KLM have 5 more seats. I appreciate that there are 40 economy plus seats, however they are still 3-4-3 and only offer 34" legroom - which equates to about 12" extra for that cabin so it should not have a large affect overall.

Therefore, for the configurations that I have compared, there does not seem to be a huge difference between KL and EK, although there are obviously other configurations where the gap may be larger - as you have demonstrated.
 
Viscount724
Posts: 19316
Joined: Thu Oct 12, 2006 7:32 pm

RE: KLM To Fly Nonstop AMS To Taipei?

Wed Oct 26, 2011 9:18 pm

Quoting BrouAviation (Reply 63):
Now, EK's economy class starts about one row further to the rear of the cabin. So let's remove 10 seats from KL's score. That makes 340 seats in the exact same space EK offers only 304. That again means about 12% more legroom you get with EK over KL. KL offers 31". So according to that number, EK should offer 34,67" in the 3-class 77W..
Now, the real difference won't be that big as there are always differences due to lavs and cabin lay-out and the seatpitch will vary throughout the cabin. But the difference is more than significant none the less..

Comparing seat pitch is also meaningless without knowing what type of seats are on the aircraft. Many of the new lightweight, thinner back seats have as much, and possibly slightly more, effective leg/kneeroom at 30 inch pitch than older seats at 33 inch pitch.

[Edited 2011-10-26 14:19:22]

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