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BestWestern
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KLM To Fly Nonstop AMS To Taipei?

Sun Oct 23, 2011 10:38 am

I've heard rumours that KLM will shortly announce a non stop service to TPE, dropping their current BKK TPE add-on.

Has anyone else heard this? I assume the additional aircraft will come from their to be dropped AMS MNL service, which will go one stop via HKG.
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kaitak
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RE: KLM To Fly Nonstop AMS To Taipei?

Sun Oct 23, 2011 11:01 am

Haven't heard anything, but it wouldn't surprise me; many CI/BR flights are now n/s to Europe - such as Rome, Frankfurt, London and Paris and the faster trip time must be having an impact; sure, KL probably does well on the BKK-TPE/vv sector, but TPE must be a pretty lucrative market for them and it's perfectly suited to the 772.

The only question is: what will they do about cargo? Maybe MP could operate some all cargo services with 74Ys, to make up the shortfall in cargo capacity vs. the 74E.
 
kl911
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RE: KLM To Fly Nonstop AMS To Taipei?

Sun Oct 23, 2011 11:01 am

Quoting Bestwestern (Thread starter):
I assume the additional aircraft will come from their to be dropped AMS MNL service, which will go one stop via HKG.

Most likely if thats true. Where did you hear that MNL nonstop will be dropped? Is that officially announced?
 
BestWestern
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RE: KLM To Fly Nonstop AMS To Taipei?

Sun Oct 23, 2011 11:15 am

Quoting kl911 (Reply 2):
Where did you hear that MNL nonstop will be dropped? Is that officially announced?

This one still still under discussion with the local government for removal.

Quoting kaitak (Reply 1):
KL probably does well on the BKK-TPE/vv sector

It must cause a fortune in crew costs for two short segments - overnight BKK - TPE (four hours onboard) - BKK - overnight. CI and KL are now alliance partners too, so more benefits from a direct service between two alliance hubs also.
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BrouAviation
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RE: KLM To Fly Nonstop AMS To Taipei?

Sun Oct 23, 2011 11:41 am

Quoting Bestwestern (Reply 3):
This one still still under discussion with the local government for removal.

Which local government? As far as I am aware, AMS-MNL has always been a true cashcow for KL.
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BestWestern
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RE: KLM To Fly Nonstop AMS To Taipei?

Sun Oct 23, 2011 11:47 am

Quoting BrouAviation (Reply 4):
As far as I am aware, AMS-MNL has always been a true cashcow for KL.
http://www.malaya.com.ph/oct19/busi6.html

THE top executive of Air France-KLM in Manila, fed up with promises from bureaucrats that burdensome taxes would soon go, yesterday said direct flights between Manila and Amsterdam will cease next April.

"Once we stop our flights, it will send a signal that doing business in the Philippines is very difficult and no European carrier will fly to the Philippines," said Cees Ursem, country manager of Air France-KLM.

Next April, Air France-KLM will altogether stop direct flights to Manila and fly via Hong Kong instead, he said. "Then we resume daily operations again via Hong Kong," he added.

He said the move will also affect crew accommodations at local hotels because layovers will be spent in Hong Kong. "We use 11,000 rooms in Manila per year but that will all be gone," Ursem said.

He said since the imposition of the taxes in 1997, seven European air carriers have ceased flying to Manila.
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HB-IWC
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RE: KLM To Fly Nonstop AMS To Taipei?

Sun Oct 23, 2011 1:07 pm

The AMS MNL suspension is but a threat and KLM has since obtained considerable concessions from the Phillipine government. Nonstop AMS MNL flights will continue to operate. That said, passenger numbers are down about 10% year on year, mainly because of the multitude of Middle Eastern carriers at MNL and KL will not be flying daily to MNL next winter for the first time in a while. Daily flights are planned to resume for the summer, but the B77W will no longer be deployed for the first time in a couple of seasons. The route will see a daily B772ER instead.

KL is indeed planning to delink TPE from the BKK route. It filed a slot request for 4 weekly nonstop AMS TPE flights this winter, but so far the route is still planned as a daily BKK tag on and that will likely stay for the next season. I would expect KLM to go nonstop for S12 at the earliest. The airline is also looking into nonstop CGK flights, while DPS will increase to daily via SIN next summer.
 
BestWestern
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RE: KLM To Fly Nonstop AMS To Taipei?

Sun Oct 23, 2011 1:11 pm

Quoting HB-IWC (Reply 6):
I would expect KLM to go nonstop for S12 at the earliest.

Thats what I heard also.
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klmcedric
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RE: KLM To Fly Nonstop AMS To Taipei?

Sun Oct 23, 2011 4:25 pm

As far as I know plans are now to start operating 2 weekly nonstop flights as soon as february (with the 747), combined
with a few weekly BKK tag-ons.
 
LJ
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RE: KLM To Fly Nonstop AMS To Taipei?

Sun Oct 23, 2011 4:48 pm

Quoting klmcedric (Reply 8):
As far as I know plans are now to start operating 2 weekly nonstop flights as soon as february (with the 747), combined
with a few weekly BKK tag-on

Though still not bookable and only in the slot allocation list. Hopefully they will, but I'm somewhat pessimistic.
 
BestWestern
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RE: KLM To Fly Nonstop AMS To Taipei?

Sun Oct 23, 2011 4:53 pm

Quoting LJ (Reply 9):
still not bookable and only in the slot allocation list.

Seems a lot more work has gone on than just slot allocations.
Greetings from Hong Kong.... a subsidiary of China Inc.
 
willzzz88
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RE: KLM To Fly Nonstop AMS To Taipei?

Sun Oct 23, 2011 5:01 pm

The CI non-stop flights have problems because they essentially fly or flew LHR-NRT-TPE due to political problems of over-flying Mainland China airspace (the logical engineering method).

I wonder if AF/KLM got overfly rights of AMS-TPE which essentially literally is AMS-XMN (close to PVG)-TPE!?

And crossing the Taiwan straight.

CI and BR flights were definitively like 5+ hours longer due to needing to AVOID Mainland China airspace and routing via Tokyo (essentially AMS-NRT-TPE) which made is LONGER.

This is why CX makes so much $$$ from Taiwanese passengers going to Europe via transiting via HKG... and others via PVG to a lesser extent...
 
willzzz88
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RE: KLM To Fly Nonstop AMS To Taipei?

Sun Oct 23, 2011 5:03 pm

Also TPE is *very lucrative* considering the Taiwanese global computer industry and semi-conductor fabrication (TSMC), etc...

The belly freight is all computer chips, components and high value just in time things...

CI/BR doesn't have this problem obviously when flying trans-Pacific from their multiple dailies to North America (YVR, YYZ, LAX, and SFO!). Their JFK flight West-wards makes a fuel stop in ANC.

The YYZ flight is trans-polar just avoiding Mainland China airspace enough (Russia Far East->Japan->Taiwan).
 
willzzz88
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RE: KLM To Fly Nonstop AMS To Taipei?

Sun Oct 23, 2011 5:08 pm

AF/KLM is figuring out what DL knows for *YEARS*:

MNL is low-yielding and mostly holiday/vacation traffic and VFR.

TPE is high-yielding with the global shipping and computer business (e.g. HTC, ASUS, etc, etc).

Looking @ DL for a second:
DL 275
Delta Air Lines 7:25 PM T-1
15 10:10 PM 9:42 PM T-2
D9 Landed
On-time 744

So DL moved their 744 onto the TPE route...

Interesting I believe this was on the DL trans-pac thing a while back, the TPE market has grown considerably.
 
Akiestar
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RE: KLM To Fly Nonstop AMS To Taipei?

Sun Oct 23, 2011 5:35 pm

Quoting kl911 (Reply 2):
Most likely if thats true. Where did you hear that MNL nonstop will be dropped? Is that officially announced?
Quoting Bestwestern (Reply 3):
This one still still under discussion with the local government for removal.
Quoting BrouAviation (Reply 4):
Which local government? As far as I am aware, AMS-MNL has always been a true cashcow for KL.

KLM has been complaining over several taxes imposed by the Philippine government: a 3% "common carrier tax" and a 1% tax on gross ticket receipts (this includes tickets to the Philippines issued abroad). The straw that broke the camel's back was the Bureau of Internal Revenue's decision to impose VAT on hotel accommodation for airline crews, which KLM claims it couldn't handle anymore, hence the so-called decision (so-called because the Philippine office says they're ending nonstop flights; the head office is denying it) to route via HKG. There's also the issue of the Bureau of Customs demanding that airlines pay for their overtime, which caused quite a stir.

The Philippine government is actually doing all that it can (supposedly) to keep KL in the Philippines: the DOTC called on KL to stay put in MNL.

Quoting HB-IWC (Reply 6):
The AMS MNL suspension is but a threat and KLM has since obtained considerable concessions from the Phillipine government. Nonstop AMS MNL flights will continue to operate.

It hasn't obtained those concessions yet. There's a bill in Congress which will abolish the common carrier tax, but it's still stuck in committee and I have no idea when it will be passed. The BIR has also refused to suspend VAT imposition on crew accommodation (as it has done on several other items, including toll fees).

Quoting willzzz88 (Reply 13):
MNL is low-yielding and mostly holiday/vacation traffic and VFR.

Not exactly. A lot of Filipinos deployed to work in Europe take KLM, especially those employed by Rotterdam-based shipping companies. Low-yielding perhaps, but it's not all holiday and VFR.

[Edited 2011-10-23 10:37:46]
 
EddieDude
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RE: KLM To Fly Nonstop AMS To Taipei?

Sun Oct 23, 2011 5:50 pm

Quoting willzzz88 (Reply 12):
Their JFK flight West-wards makes a fuel stop in ANC.

I thought it was JFK-KIX-TPE.
CI 0019 JFK-KIX-TPE 13:30 - 18:35(+1) / 20:05 - 22:15 747-400
Upcoming flights:
April/May: AM MEX-SCL 788 (J), AM EZE-MEX 789 (J).
 
HB-IWC
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RE: KLM To Fly Nonstop AMS To Taipei?

Sun Oct 23, 2011 5:53 pm

Quoting Akiestar (Reply 14):
so-called because the Philippine office says they're ending nonstop flights; the head office is denying it

Indeed, no plans exist to end the MNL nonstop, although that can of course quickly change. The local KLM office seems to be very much engaged in some bluffing there. That said, passenger numbers are down, not because of the levels of taxation but because of competition of the Middle Eastern carriers, and KLM will not be operating daily flights this winter and will also not bring back the B77W next summer.
 
Akiestar
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RE: KLM To Fly Nonstop AMS To Taipei?

Sun Oct 23, 2011 6:07 pm

Quoting HB-IWC (Reply 16):
The local KLM office seems to be very much engaged in some bluffing there.

If they're bluffing, I'm surprised that local media, government and the general flying public are taking it very, very seriously. On SSC's Philippine forums, a poster there posted a notice from the local KLM Cargo sales manager saying that the KL Cargo flights are staying put even when KLM "ends" nonstop AMS-MNL.

I certainly hope they're bluffing: I'm scheduled to fly KL back to MNL in July next year, and if they will be stopping AMS-MNL via HKG I'd force them to rebook me on CZ because the one-stop flight's timings via CAN would be much better than if AMS-HKG was extended to MNL. (I prefer arriving in the morning than midday. )

(EDIT: On the other hand, some say that KL pulling out of MNL could be an opportune time for PR to mount flights to Europe if it can get itself removed from the EU blacklist imposed on all Philippine carriers.)

[Edited 2011-10-23 11:10:15]

[Edited 2011-10-23 11:14:17]
 
HB-IWC
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RE: KLM To Fly Nonstop AMS To Taipei?

Sun Oct 23, 2011 6:22 pm

As far as I know, the issue of the taxes for crew hotels is off the table. That said, the performance of KL803/804 is by far not as good as what it used to be, but I am not aware of an impending cessation of nonstop AMS MNL flights. For a while there, AMS HKG was planned to be operated with B772ER from next August, maybe because of the need to cater to extra MNL pax, but HKG has since reverted to B74E.

I believe that was is far more important than the whole taxation issue is how AF/KL, and probably some other airlines as well, are getting beat from the Middle Eastern carriers in some Asian stations. MNL has EK, QR, EY, GF and KU, while WY is starting to look flights there and KLM is clearly feeling the heat from those airlines, as they continue to expand their European networks. Let's not forget what happened to AF at BKK: for the first time in several decades AF will not operate daily flights into BKK next year. It will offer a mere 3 weekly flights with what is essentially a charter configuration with just 14 premium seats. All of that for the very same reason as KLM's situation in MNL.
 
mindscape
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RE: KLM To Fly Nonstop AMS To Taipei?

Sun Oct 23, 2011 6:42 pm

Quoting HB-IWC (Reply 18):
Let's not forget what happened to AF at BKK: for the first time in several decades AF will not operate daily flights into BKK next year. It will offer a mere 3 weekly flights with what is essentially a charter configuration with just 14 premium seats. All of that for the very same reason as KLM's situation in MNL.

Wow, shocker here ! how come? TG is still sending a daily B744 to CDG, no?
BKK not daily and with a low yielding config plane, this is truly a bad surprise. Which plane will they use? the COI B77W? And what about the new tag on PNH, doesn't look like it is bringing more pax?
 
HB-IWC
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RE: KLM To Fly Nonstop AMS To Taipei?

Sun Oct 23, 2011 6:53 pm

Quoting mindscape (Reply 19):
TG is still sending a daily B744 to CDG, no?
BKK not daily and with a low yielding config plane, this is truly a bad surprise. Which plane will they use? the COI B77W? And what about the new tag on PNH, doesn't look like it is bringing more pax?

TG is sending 10 weekly B77W and AF will soon be sending 3 weekly terminator flights with B77W COI. PNH will be tagged to CDG SGN. AF will be sending 42 premium seats per week (!) to what was once a top Asian market like BKK.
 
BestWestern
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RE: KLM To Fly Nonstop AMS To Taipei?

Sun Oct 23, 2011 6:55 pm

Quoting mindscape (Reply 19):
Wow, shocker here ! how come? TG is still sending a daily B744 to CDG, no?
BKK not daily and with a low yielding config plane, this is truly a bad surprise. Which plane will they use? the COI B77W? And what about the new tag on PNH, doesn't look like it is bringing more pax?

BKK will become a x3 weekly 77W
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LAXintl
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RE: KLM To Fly Nonstop AMS To Taipei?

Sun Oct 23, 2011 7:14 pm

Might be worth noting, the chairman of China Airlines in recent Aviation Week interview mentioned all of the the carriers European services were either loss-making or barely profitable and entry into SkyTeam could provide the answer by placing CI code on KLM services.

So a nonstop KL AMS-TPE would I suppose nicely work in such an arrangement.

Quoting willzzz88 (Reply 13):
TPE is high-yielding with the global shipping and computer business (e.g. HTC, ASUS, etc, etc).

You must be speaking about another TPE.

Taiwan is hardly "high yielding". Its well known as one of the lower yielding discount markets in Asia. Compare what airlines are able to garner in places like Hong Kong and Japan and you'll see.

Taiwan has a strong manufacturing base which drives cargo demand, however its hardly a burgeoning business market. Matter of fact, Taiwan is loosing its demand as things shift mainland China. In 2010, only about 16% of the market was business travelers, compared to almost 30% in 2000 and 1990.

A good guide, look at the home airlines - both CI and BR have relative modest sized business cabins and are well know as heavy discounters in such cabins on long-haul services.
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
panamair
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RE: KLM To Fly Nonstop AMS To Taipei?

Sun Oct 23, 2011 7:26 pm

Quoting willzzz88 (Reply 13):
So DL moved their 744 onto the TPE route...

Interesting I believe this was on the DL trans-pac thing a while back, the TPE market has grown considerably.

DL put the 744 on NRT-TPE this past summer, and has now scheduled a 777 for the winter. This capacity boost for TPE is primarily related to CI's Skyteam entry, and is not really an "in place of MNL". MNL will continue to have 744 service year-round (for now) to NRT and NGO.
 
BestWestern
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RE: KLM To Fly Nonstop AMS To Taipei?

Sun Oct 23, 2011 7:41 pm

Quoting HB-IWC (Reply 20):
AF will be sending 42 premium seats per week (!) to what was once a top Asian market like BKK.

The political insecurity in Thailand has probably driven the yield downwards from premium cabin perspective, and the J cabin is frequently available with Z class fares right till departure.

AF have a equal if not slightly superior J class service to TG , so it isnt a service differential - (in comparison to HKG or SIN vs CX or SQ)
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mindscape
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RE: KLM To Fly Nonstop AMS To Taipei?

Sun Oct 23, 2011 8:54 pm

Quoting HB-IWC (Reply 20):
TG is sending 10 weekly B77W and AF will soon be sending 3 weekly terminator flights with B77W COI. PNH will be tagged to CDG SGN. AF will be sending 42 premium seats per week (!) to what was once a top Asian market like BKK.
Quoting Bestwestern (Reply 24):
The political insecurity in Thailand has probably driven the yield downwards from premium cabin perspective, and the J cabin is frequently available with Z class fares right till departure.


I am sorry to keep this 'off-topic' subject, although KL is part of the AF-KL strategy group, but how come TG can sustain a 10 weekly B77W with F class (leased from 9W I guess) to CDG, a non StarAlliance hub? The AF B77W COI config have only 14 J shabby old NEV (1 or 2) seats, the Alize class is different from the Premium Voyageur class, and the catering 3x4x3 class is dreadful. Is TG purposely put such premium aircraft at loss for the CDG route prestige or do they really make money while AF can't?

PNH being tagged to SGN ? this is like going backwards ! I don'y understand this AF-KL decision. SGN was tagged to BKK before VN joined SkyTeam, and it was working fine for several years with a B744 in winter season and A343 during summer season. HB-IWC, do you know why BKK is such a poor performer besides the Middle Eastern carriers factor, especially vs TG 10 weekly service?

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 22):
Might be worth noting, the chairman of China Airlines in recent Aviation Week interview mentioned all of the the carriers European services were either loss-making or barely profitable and entry into SkyTeam could provide the answer by placing CI code on KLM services.

Does someone know what are the top and poor performers in East and South East Asia for the AF-KL Group?
 
trex8
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RE: KLM To Fly Nonstop AMS To Taipei?

Sun Oct 23, 2011 9:06 pm

Quoting willzzz88 (Reply 11):
The CI non-stop flights have problems because they essentially fly or flew LHR-NRT-TPE due to political problems of over-flying Mainland China airspace (the logical engineering method).

I wonder if AF/KLM got overfly rights of AMS-TPE which essentially literally is AMS-XMN (close to PVG)-TPE!?

Taiwanese carriers cannot use the airways crossing central, western China to europe. They can route over southern China/Hainan. This does cause extra time to Europe as they cannot fly routes close to great circle.
 
BestWestern
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RE: KLM To Fly Nonstop AMS To Taipei?

Sun Oct 23, 2011 10:06 pm

Quoting mindscape (Reply 25):
how come TG can sustain a 10 weekly B77W with F class (leased from 9W I guess) to CDG,

How profit orientated is TG? If the unstability of Thailand is the reason, TG is probably suffering from poor J loads systemwide.

AF probably has better things to do with their capacity.

Quoting mindscape (Reply 25):
CDG, a non StarAlliance hub?

BKK a non SkyTeam hub?

Moving from a high density 772 to a ultra high density 773 and the 74C AMS BKK TPE terminating in BKK probably means that AFKL seats to BKK are not changing that much.
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panamair
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RE: KLM To Fly Nonstop AMS To Taipei?

Sun Oct 23, 2011 10:13 pm

Looks like the AF CDG-BKK 3x weekly service (starting with the summer 2012 schedule) will initially be operated by the 744 (April and part of May) and then switch over to the 77W later in May.

Also, they have retimed the flights - it will be an afternoon departure out of CDG (instead of the current evening), arriving BKK before 6am. The return BKK-CDG will be a daylight flight (leaving around 1000, and arriving CDG around 1700).
 
mindscape
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RE: KLM To Fly Nonstop AMS To Taipei?

Sun Oct 23, 2011 11:00 pm

Quoting Bestwestern (Reply 27):
BKK a non SkyTeam hub?

Hence my question on the unbalanced frequencies between TG and AF to their respective hub.
Is KL going to keep a daily frequency to BKK with the termination of the TPE tag?

Quoting panamair (Reply 28):
Also, they have retimed the flights - it will be an afternoon departure out of CDG (instead of the current evening), arriving BKK before 6am. The return BKK-CDG will be a daylight flight (leaving around 1000, and arriving CDG around 1700).

That is so 'un-premium' timing... I very surprised. BKK is clearly a low yielding destination for AF. Why AF-KL does not let BKK as a KL destination only?
 
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BasilFawlty
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RE: KLM To Fly Nonstop AMS To Taipei?

Mon Oct 24, 2011 12:07 am

TPE might be high yielding for both pax and cargo (especially Europe bound), but pax demand is quite low, so I wonder how they're going to fill a 772 or whatever they're planning to use. When you look at the current flights of KL, CI and BR on AMS-BKK-TPE, 80% of the passengers will disembark in BKK, only the remaining 20% plus some local fifth freedom pax will continue on the last leg to TPE.
'Every year donkeys and mules kill more people than plane crashes'
 
willzzz88
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RE: KLM To Fly Nonstop AMS To Taipei?

Mon Oct 24, 2011 12:22 am

BasilFawlty, because Taiwan like Japan and South Korea has 1st world status in Asia essentially (per capita income is nearly the same as the West due to technology) and its mainly VFR and business.

It's not a holiday destination unless you actually understand Chinese/Taiwanese culture and what-not (though everything is available in English). Its one of the 4 East Asian tigers of East Asian countries with the trade of high-tech (90% of the computer components in the world of some form come from a Taiwanese OEM supplier, Apple's iPhone stuff R&D is there too!).
 
willzzz88
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RE: KLM To Fly Nonstop AMS To Taipei?

Mon Oct 24, 2011 12:28 am

Their moving the manufacturing to Mainland China because its cheaper but the labor pool is drying up and they need to move to inland provinces. Or Automate. Which is what a-lot of the Taiwanese companies are doing with machine automation and PLC'es in manufacturing recently...

Traditionally a-lot of the traffic to TPE has been trans-Pacific to LAX, SFO, SEA, YVR, JFK, etc...

SFO because of the Northern California/Silicon Valley->

BR/CI carry a-lot of low-yield North America West Coast to SE-Asia traffic connecting through TPE.

[Edited 2011-10-23 17:29:06]

[Edited 2011-10-23 17:34:57]
 
mdavies06
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RE: KLM To Fly Nonstop AMS To Taipei?

Mon Oct 24, 2011 5:05 am

Quoting mindscape (Reply 29):
Quoting Bestwestern (Reply 27):
BKK a non SkyTeam hub?

Hence my question on the unbalanced frequencies between TG and AF to their respective hub.
Is KL going to keep a daily frequency to BKK with the termination of the TPE tag?

Quoting panamair (Reply 28):
Also, they have retimed the flights - it will be an afternoon departure out of CDG (instead of the current evening), arriving BKK before 6am. The return BKK-CDG will be a daylight flight (leaving around 1000, and arriving CDG around 1700).

That is so 'un-premium' timing... I very surprised. BKK is clearly a low yielding destination for AF. Why AF-KL does not let BKK as a KL destination only?

If you look at how much capacity EY, QR, WY, EK etc all put into BKK, then you will understand why. A long haul Europe - Asia flight relies on premium demand and if it is not there, then the market gets taken by middle east carriers like EY, QR, WY, EK. BKK, MNL are some examples of these. Compare them with say Tokyo or SIN where European carriers are still holding on.
 
PHKLM
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RE: KLM To Fly Nonstop AMS To Taipei?

Mon Oct 24, 2011 7:55 am

The problem with MNL is the length of the flight. It is very expensive to operate in terms of crew (double crew required because of long block time) and off course fuel expenses. This tied to low yields [remember that yields per definition are lower on longer routes, as it's revenue divided by miles flown] make it a challenging route; especially when having to compete with Middle Eastern carriers that have numerous advantages.
 
LondonCity
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RE: KLM To Fly Nonstop AMS To Taipei?

Mon Oct 24, 2011 9:41 am

Quoting Bestwestern (Reply 27):
How profit orientated is TG? If the unstability of Thailand is the reason, TG is probably suffering from poor J loads systemwide.

The serious flooding in Thailand right now (with the city of Bangkok increasingly threatened) cannot be helping matters.
 
TGV
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RE: KLM To Fly Nonstop AMS To Taipei?

Mon Oct 24, 2011 10:44 am

Quoting HB-IWC (Reply 18):
MNL has EK, QR, EY, GF and KU, while WY is starting to look flights there and KLM is clearly feeling the heat from those airlines, as they continue to expand their European networks. Let's not forget what happened to AF at BKK: for the first time in several decades AF will not operate daily flights into BKK next year. It will offer a mere 3 weekly flights with what is essentially a charter configuration with just 14 premium seats. All of that for the very same reason as KLM's situation in MNL.
Quoting HB-IWC (Reply 20):
TG is sending 10 weekly B77W and AF will soon be sending 3 weekly terminator flights with B77W COI. PNH will be tagged to CDG SGN. AF will be sending 42 premium seats per week (!) to what was once a top Asian market like BKK.
Quoting PHKLM (Reply 34):
The problem with MNL is the length of the flight.

One element that has to be taken into account as well for KL as for AF is that on flights of more than 2/3 hours having to endure a very uncomfortable configuration (Eco 3-4-3 config in a 777) is something people will try to avoid when they know what is is.

I suppose what we see here is an effect of this evolution (for the eco cabin load factors and yields): slowly but surely people discover how bad is the 3-4-3 config          and try to avoid it, even if this entails having a longer flight, or a slightly higher price. Yes there are people selecting their ticket on price factors only, but I am quite convinced they represent a minority (20 % ?) of long haul passengers travelling regularly in Eco.

This explains why TG is beating easily AF on CDG-BKK, with a non stop flight, and probably why people go to the Gulf carriers. I have 2 friends living in VN who come back to France twice a year: they tried once the AF non-stop flight, discovered the pleasures of the 3-4-3 config, and are now back to VN (non-stop with 777 in 3-3-3), CX or even QR.
I will never fly again 777 with 3-4-3 config in Y
 
lawair
Posts: 247
Joined: Thu Jan 08, 2009 10:59 pm

RE: KLM To Fly Nonstop AMS To Taipei?

Tue Oct 25, 2011 1:03 am

Quoting mdavies06 (Reply 33):
If you look at how much capacity EY, QR, WY, EK etc all put into BKK, then you will understand why. A long haul Europe - Asia flight relies on premium demand and if it is not there, then the market gets taken by middle east carriers like EY, QR, WY, EK. BKK, MNL are some examples of these. Compare them with say Tokyo or SIN where European carriers are still holding on.

I think this is a mischaracterization of European operations at BKK. While there is presumably less premium demand out of BKK than at SIN/NRT, that doesn't really suggest that European carriers at BKK aren't able to "hold on." If you compare BKK to SIN and NRT, BKK actually has more European carriers than either SIN or NRT (BKK has roughly 15-18 compared to SIN's 6-8 and NRT's 11-13). BKK's numbers come from both premium and leisure carriers in Europe, the latter of which have limited services to SIN and NRT. If we took BKK's premium European carriers alone, there still are a substantial number of European carriers, comparable in number to SIN and NRT. It is true that European carrier's fifth freedom routes out of BKK have been reduced over the past several years (ie. Swiss, Air France, KLM, Lufthansa, and soon, BA), and that is what this thread seems primarily focused on. It's probably also worth noting that all of the major European carriers operating to BKK (with the exception of Finnair, and maybe Turkish if you count Turkey as Europe) have competition on their BKK routes.

The comparison to MNL is even less apt than to SIN/NRT. MNL actually is struggling to hold onto its European services, and it doesn't even have a strong home carrier to pick up the slack or provide a sturdy connecting hub. MNL is also quite a ways further from Europe than BKK is. In comparison to MNL's nearly non-existent European services, BKK has a substantial quantity of European services by not only European carriers, but also Asian carriers and a strong home carrier in TG (which itself services roughly 13-15 European destinations already).
 
celestar
Posts: 540
Joined: Mon Jul 09, 2001 11:37 am

RE: KLM To Fly Nonstop AMS To Taipei?

Tue Oct 25, 2011 6:30 am

I have my doubts if this news of flying direct to Taiwan is true even though I love that to be.
I had taken many times EVA AIR flight to AMS, and most of the time, they could not fill the TPE to Bangkok section but from Bangkok to AMS, my God, every seat is taken. The only flight for EVA going direct, was to Paris I believe. Flying over China air space is no longer an issue given both side are in better terms now.
I do think the cargo side might make sense, as I konw CHINA AIR is doing well with its freighter to AMS. BTW, even China Airlines stop by Bangkok to pick up passenger for their flight to AMS.
 
aznmadsci
Posts: 1646
Joined: Tue Dec 18, 2007 8:02 pm

RE: KLM To Fly Nonstop AMS To Taipei?

Tue Oct 25, 2011 7:14 am

Quoting TGV (Reply 36):
One element that has to be taken into account as well for KL as for AF is that on flights of more than 2/3 hours having to endure a very uncomfortable configuration (Eco 3-4-3 config in a 777) is something people will try to avoid when they know what is is.

I suppose what we see here is an effect of this evolution (for the eco cabin load factors and yields): slowly but surely people discover how bad is the 3-4-3 config

EK also uses 3-4-3 in Y on their 777s.
The journey of life is not based on the accomplishments, but the experience.
 
1979AirBuzz
Posts: 15
Joined: Thu Oct 13, 2011 7:50 am

RE: KLM To Fly Nonstop AMS To Taipei?

Tue Oct 25, 2011 7:55 am

Quoting mindscape (Reply 25):
Does someone know what are the top and poor performers in East and South East Asia for the AF-KL Group?

For the European legacy carriers, the top performers in that part of the world are usually PVG, NRT, SIN and HKG.
 
Akiestar
Posts: 974
Joined: Wed May 06, 2009 6:51 am

RE: KLM To Fly Nonstop AMS To Taipei?

Tue Oct 25, 2011 8:16 am

Quoting willzzz88 (Reply 13):
AF/KLM is figuring out what DL knows for *YEARS*:

MNL is low-yielding and mostly holiday/vacation traffic and VFR.

If MNL was that low-yielding, why is it that they're able to send 744s to NRT and NGO? That's also considering that DL's operations in MNL is significantly larger than their operations in BKK and SIN, and they have a pretty large share of the Philippines-U.S. market compared to other carriers which serve MNL. (If I'm not mistaken, it's PR, DL and CX which carry most Philippines-U.S. traffic, and HA if we include Hawaii.)

I don't think NW, and now DL, would be serving MNL for the last 60 years (as KL has also done with AMS-MNL) if it was really losing that much money on the route. Pulling out now could have disastrous effects for local public relations: some Filipinos, for example, are still (somewhat) distrustful of UA after they pulled out of MNL in the wake of the Asian financial crisis.

[Edited 2011-10-25 01:18:15]
 
kl911
Posts: 3981
Joined: Mon Jul 21, 2003 1:10 am

RE: KLM To Fly Nonstop AMS To Taipei?

Tue Oct 25, 2011 8:55 am

Quoting TGV (Reply 36):
One element that has to be taken into account as well for KL as for AF is that on flights of more than 2/3 hours having to endure a very uncomfortable configuration (Eco 3-4-3 config in a 777) is something people will try to avoid when they know what is is.

I have tried it and its ok, dont see a problem with it. As long as seat pitch is ok I dont care. I think its a myth that those seats are bad. As long as you have a normal healthy figure its good. I'm 6.2 and sport a lot.  
 
Dakota
Posts: 115
Joined: Fri Feb 18, 2000 2:38 am

RE: KLM To Fly Nonstop AMS To Taipei?

Tue Oct 25, 2011 9:18 am

KLM CEO Peter Hartman spoke earlier this year already about plans to fly directly to both Taipei and Jakarta in Dutch aviation magazine Luchtvaartnieuws. He said: "We are planning to expand capacity by flying directly to Taipei and Jakarta."

If the plans materialize, KLM will be the first European airline to fly non-stop to both cities.
 
Akiestar
Posts: 974
Joined: Wed May 06, 2009 6:51 am

RE: KLM To Fly Nonstop AMS To Taipei?

Tue Oct 25, 2011 11:59 am

Quoting Dakota (Reply 43):
"We are planning to expand capacity by flying directly to Taipei and Jakarta."

I wonder: with GA entering SkyTeam and launching non-stop CGK-AMS flights, will there be too much capacity on the route? I mean there are many Indonesian people in the Netherlands, but with KL and GA having flights, and Indonesia being low-yield as well, I was wondering if all those flights will be sustainable in the long run.
 
kl911
Posts: 3981
Joined: Mon Jul 21, 2003 1:10 am

RE: KLM To Fly Nonstop AMS To Taipei?

Tue Oct 25, 2011 2:19 pm

Quoting Akiestar (Reply 44):
I mean there are many Indonesian people in the Netherlands, but with KL and GA having flights, and Indonesia being low-yield as well, I was wondering if all those flights will be sustainable in the long run.

Well, there are large Indonesian populations in the UK and US. They would also benefit from a onestop flight on KL to CGK.
 
LondonCity
Posts: 1069
Joined: Wed Nov 19, 2008 12:57 pm

RE: KLM To Fly Nonstop AMS To Taipei?

Tue Oct 25, 2011 2:25 pm

Quoting kl911 (Reply 45):
Well, there are large Indonesian populations in the UK and US. They would also benefit from a onestop flight on KL to CGK.

Correct. But taking KL via AMS still involves an indirect routing. Bear in mind that there are other options to JKT/DPS out of the UK with indirect carriers like SQ, TG, MH, EK, EY and QR.
 
HB-IWC
Posts: 4110
Joined: Fri Sep 22, 2000 1:09 am

RE: KLM To Fly Nonstop AMS To Taipei?

Tue Oct 25, 2011 2:56 pm

Quoting Akiestar (Reply 44):
and Indonesia being low-yield as well

Take a look at CGK - Europe fares and MNL - Europe fares, particularly for the premium classes, and you will see that CGK is nowhere near as low yielding as MNL. Premium fares from CGK are 30 to 50% higher than those from MNL for a stage length that is not that much different.
 
BrouAviation
Posts: 280
Joined: Fri Jun 05, 2009 6:31 am

RE: KLM To Fly Nonstop AMS To Taipei?

Tue Oct 25, 2011 3:39 pm

Quoting aznmadsci (Reply 39):

EK also uses 3-4-3 in Y on their 777s.

Yeah, but at least they give you a generous 34" of seatpitch back. And then there is QR with their 3-3-3 lay-out. KLM's 31" 3-4-3 lay-out is a disgrace..
Never ask somebody if he's a pilot. If he is, he will let you know soon enough!
 
TGV
Posts: 722
Joined: Wed Dec 29, 2004 1:37 pm

RE: KLM To Fly Nonstop AMS To Taipei?

Tue Oct 25, 2011 6:51 pm

Quoting kl911 (Reply 42):
I have tried it and its ok, dont see a problem with it. As long as seat pitch is ok I dont care. I think its a myth that those seats are bad. As long as you have a normal healthy figure its good. I'm 6.2 and sport a lot.

I have tried it and avoid it ! The general opinion of people who tried it is more against than for it.

I think that it may be bearable if you have free seats next to you, the problem is not the seat cushion width, but the fact that when you have neighbours you are in permanent elbow / arm contact with them. Try to sleep in such conditions, especially if your neighbour moves frequently !

And if you have a window seat your shoulder is touching the wall and you don't have anywhere to put your arm, due to the very thin armrest.
I am not fat (1.80 m / 77 kg) but find it very bad.

The pitch is just the normal AF pitch.

        
I will never fly again 777 with 3-4-3 config in Y

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