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EDICHC
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RE: Qantas Grounds Entire Airline

Sat Oct 29, 2011 11:04 am

Quoting captainMeeerkat (Reply 89):
Qantas won't collapse!

I'm sure I heard the same said about Pan Am, Swissair, Sabena etc etc... Any airline has the potential to collapse.
 
captainmeeerkat
Posts: 389
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RE: Qantas Grounds Entire Airline

Sat Oct 29, 2011 11:07 am

Quoting BoeingVista (Reply 107):
We are talking about the airline business in Australia and with Virgin, competent management are able to run an airline in Australia and keep staff, passengers and shareholders happy

And in August 2011, Qantas announced a new strategy to implement a fundamental structural change to counter the unhappiness among all the interested parties. That is good management practice. Rebellion by one group only (staff) has brought that change into trouble. Management reacted and here we are. Again, I ask you from before: what would you do at Qantas?
 
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mariner
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RE: Qantas Grounds Entire Airline

Sat Oct 29, 2011 11:08 am

Quoting BoeingVista (Reply 107):
We are talking about the airline business in Australia and with Virgin, competent management are able to run an airline in Australia and keep staff, passengers and shareholders happy.

And is losing money.

mariner
 
captainmeeerkat
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RE: Qantas Grounds Entire Airline

Sat Oct 29, 2011 11:09 am

Quoting EDICHC (Reply 109):
I'm sure I heard the same said about Pan Am, Swissair, Sabena etc etc... Any airline has the potential to collapse.

Yes of course you are right, but from them emerged new airlines that were/are able to compete domestically and globally once again.
 
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EK413
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RE: Qantas Grounds Entire Airline

Sat Oct 29, 2011 11:10 am

Quoting mmedford (Reply 24):
Quoting weebie (Reply 5):
Brilliant move in my opinion. It's crunch time now for the Unions

I bet you would be an amazing scab...

        

Quoting qf002 (Reply 29):
JB must be celebrating tonight!

He could've prevented it from coming to this point... Believe he was the right man for the job...

Quoting cchan (Reply 53):
Also of interest is QF21 SYD-NRT tonight has been delayed for 12 hours rather than get cancelled altogether.

With talks under way probably there hopeful flights will recommence as early as tomorrow morning...
My fingers are crossed...         

Quoting JMM99 (Reply 55):
Will JQ, Qantaslink & Jetconnect fly thru out the night now ?

I doubt it unless this is Julia Gillard method of getting involved!

Quoting melpax (Reply 61):
Interesting times. 2 of the biggest sporting events in Australia are being held in Melbourne next week, The Melbourne Cup on Tuesday & Oaks Day on Thursday. Thousands would be having to rethink their plans for cup week at the moment. Not to mention the huge disruption to business travel also.

Hopefully both parties have come to agreement by as early as Monday...

Quoting captainMeeerkat (Reply 89):
Qantas won't collapse! This is a pre-planned strategy that will see Qantas emerge out the other side without the overbearing costs.

Anyone who thinks the the Board of Directors and major shareholders didn't know about this is not living in the realities of business.

It's impossible to book thousands of passengers into hotel's and transfer passengers to other carriers with such short notice... It's clear the Board seeked approval from the shareholders at Friday's meeting...

EK413
 
captainmeeerkat
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RE: Qantas Grounds Entire Airline

Sat Oct 29, 2011 11:13 am

Quoting EK413 (Reply 113):
It's clear the Board seeked approval from the shareholders at Friday's meeting...

My point exactly, thank you for explaining it in better terms. This is a process to trim the excess fat from Qantas and they will succeed in either reforming the airline into a better business entity, or restarting Qantas (someone above mentioned Qantas 2!) as a whole new entity.
 
EDICHC
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RE: Qantas Grounds Entire Airline

Sat Oct 29, 2011 11:14 am

Quoting captainMeeerkat (Reply 112):
Yes of course you are right, but from them emerged new airlines that were/are able to compete domestically and globally once again.

Really? All attempts to revive Pan Am have been dismal failures, Swiss are a re-branding of Crossair a well established carrier at the time of Swissair's collapse, so hardly new and have since been taken over by LH.

Point is a proud history is no guarantee for survival.
 
CupraIbiza
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RE: Qantas Grounds Entire Airline

Sat Oct 29, 2011 11:22 am

We all know the Coalition went too far with Workchoices and this was part of the reason they lost the 2007 election. However the Rudd government not only unwound Workchoices but they also unwound lots of the reforms of the former Hawke/Keating governments. Our IR laws are now back in the 80s
Just have a look at the disgrace that is the Wonthaggi Desalination plant
 
NTLDaz
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RE: Qantas Grounds Entire Airline

Sat Oct 29, 2011 11:28 am

Quoting joelyboy911 (Reply 56):
All I'm saying is that this has gotten well out of hand, and the employer has been driven to this because the Unions, who are laden with self-serving executives and leaders, want more power.

Talk about overblown ! Workers rights matter. It's a big call to say the company has been driven to such extreme action. Maybe one of the reasons Australia enjoys a much higher standard of living ( financially at least ) is that we have not had the Rogernomics of your country.
 
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allrite
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RE: Qantas Grounds Entire Airline

Sat Oct 29, 2011 11:47 am

Never post in anger the message says, but I'm just so angry right now that I've had to return to a.net after staying away for a while...

Qantas needs to adapt and change, but this action has just gone too far.

As I see it:

* This is likely not Alan Joyce's decision, it is Chairman Leigh Clifford and the board probably responsible for this lockout. Joyce will likely be the scapegoat and no wonder he'd be after more money.

* Customer service works differently in the mining industry to aviation. Mining customers probably appreciate management acting tough and bitching about their employees. But an airline passenger wants to deal with happy cabin crew and have full confidence in the pilots flying the plane and the engineers on the ground. This war between the unions and management hurts both of them.

* Watching Qantas' management (especially through the sardonic Ms Wirth) trash their own employees and brand has been disgusting and surely elicits little sympathy from most travellers.

* Unfortunately in Australia our board "talent" pool seems to be a lot of miners and bankers. I guess they are Qantas' most valued customers...

* The ego, greed and political (I'm including business politics) maneuvering of both business and union leaders does both types of organisations no good and is all short term thinking.

* There is no respect for the concept of goodwill and a desire from your customers and your employees to succeed. Not everything is about money.

It is disgusting to watch each little business lobby group claim they need government to fix up their mess (build infrastructure/educate workers/protect them from competitors/pay for their environmental issues) while simultaneously demanding that somebody else but them has to pay for these programs (it's called tax). Now we have Qantas trying to hold the government hostage. Almost makes one want to nationalise them, just to get rid of the goons running the place. I suspect too that some union bosses are thinking too that "doesn't matter if I kill the current government, I'll be looking good for preselection in a future political cycle".

Angry.
 
T8KE0FF
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RE: Qantas Grounds Entire Airline

Sat Oct 29, 2011 11:51 am

Wow, I'm almost speechless! I can't decide if this is a absolutely stupid decision by AJ or one I applaud him for..

Can't wait to see what comes out of this..
 
peanuts
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RE: Qantas Grounds Entire Airline

Sat Oct 29, 2011 12:04 pm

So what has REALLY happened?
Management has called Union's bluff and now all parties have to act like adults again. The playing field in this "game" has been leveled and everybody's true colors will show momentarily...

Management has HUGE responsibilities to MANY different parties. Unions only to one. They will both have to make it work. Both will have to swallow some pride, very soon.

If CEO's don't "deserve" their pay, why should a union boss? Beats me. Let's leave the silly arguments off the table.

QF is dealing with some major global competition. In order to realistically survive in the long run, it would have to adapt, regardless of domestic inflationary income situations. In other words, what the unions are really asking for is for QF's passengers, including Australians not working for QF, to pony up pay raises just so QF employees can maintain or improve their lifestyle while the international competition keeps pounding QF into the ground in the long run.

I'll ask you, who has long term vision of sustainability?

QF's "challenges" would certainly give the travelling public an opportunity to try out some other metal. That's just a necessary consequence of QF's actions (Including the union's actions. We can't leave them out as they share responsibility).
 
tayser
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RE: Qantas Grounds Entire Airline

Sat Oct 29, 2011 12:08 pm

interesting times.

Lets ground the whole fleet when the VAST majority of which is domestic based and therefore IMMUNE from the problems and competitive risks the international flights (cheaper Asian and M.E. labour) are susceptible to.
 
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EK413
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RE: Qantas Grounds Entire Airline

Sat Oct 29, 2011 12:08 pm

Quoting allrite (Reply 116):
Never post in anger the message says, but I'm just so angry right now that I've had to return to a.net after staying away for a while...
Quoting EK413 (Reply 10):
I'm left speechless...

EK413

Couldn't agree more and that is the reason why I stepped back and have taken a few deep breaths...

EK413
 
tayser
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RE: Qantas Grounds Entire Airline

Sat Oct 29, 2011 12:15 pm

does NZ, SQ, MH, CX have a few spare 320s/330s/777s/737s? Gonna need 'em!
 
jupiter2
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RE: Qantas Grounds Entire Airline

Sat Oct 29, 2011 12:21 pm

Well obviously there are not going to be any fence sitters on this forum, pretty much the typical A vs B, except this time it is management/big business vs working class/unions.

Being part of the latter, but at the same time I feel realistic, I have found the modern union movement, to be vastly moderates. Sure there are still hardliners out there, but they are no worse than union bashing big business/CEO's/politicians, who to be honest are all outdated folk, from both sides. The modern world needs reasonable negotiation from both sides, not thuggery, from either side.

I have been involved in a wage negotiation, backed by the TWU, with a company I used to work for, ironically owned now by QF. We went into the negotiations with completely unrealistic demands, {lets face it, that's where all wage negotiations start} and the Employer counted with equally completely unrealistic proposals. It took us months to settle on reasonable increases for both sides, ie: increased pay for increased productivity. Having said that, it was hard work, it got heated at times, for what was in the end for us anyway, small increases in take home pay, which if it did at all, barely covered any cost of living increases that occurred over the period covered in the agreement.

Simply put, there should be nothing different in this dispute, fair increases for fair work place reforms/increases in productivity, of course this is on a much grander scale, being fought as much in the media/court of public opinion as it is around the negotiating table.

I find it puzzling people criticising workers wanting more pay, lets face it, if workers didn't NEED more income to cover increased costs of living, they wouldn't need to ask for it {the greedy minority aside} and the modern day workforce is also sensible enough to know that you don't get something for nothing. It is the way the world works anyway, if the workers don't have enough disposable income they stop spending, the simplistic end results are that economies start contracting, demand continues to contract and guess what, we have a recession.

I don't agree with the confrontational way Qantas mangement has gone about this and if the perception that a lot of people I know is consistant across the country, neither do most average income earners in the country. The unions, being far from angels, have done relatively low key actions in this dispute, nothing has grounded the airline, inconvienced many, yes, but only for a few hours at most at a time. This action, could of course make the QF BOD and CEO look like geniuses, on the other hand, it could drive the airline as we knew it, into oblivion.

I don't know how this will turn out, I fear the worse for QF, it's reputation was being somewhat tarnished by the industrial action being taken by the workforce, but nothing compared to the announcement made this afternoon.

Most have thought it recent times that eventually Jetstar will be the main airline at QF, the ever shareholder driven demand for higher profits, the constant drive to lower costs to compete with off shore airlines, this maybe the trigger for that end, I for one hope not. I hope for a strong QF, with support from JQ, not the end of what was a national icon, for the ever driven demand for the mighty dollar for shareholders bank acounts.

As has been mentioned before on this board, at maybe time to renationalise QF. There are certain industries that are of vital national concern, especially for what is, population wise, a small country. Air transport is one of them.

Nationalising the airline doesn't mean having to protect it from competition either, the core of the company is sound, it makes money, New Zealand has done it as a necessity, it maybe time for Australia too.

There is so much more that could be said, but I'll save that for a few mates, some beers, a healthy robust discussion and where we can voice our opinions, speak our mind and say goodbye to an old friend, because I fear that is what will be happening.
 
bennett123
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RE: Qantas Grounds Entire Airline

Sat Oct 29, 2011 12:23 pm

http://www.airfleets.net/flottecie/Air%20New%20Zealand.htm

Well ANZ has 2 parked B747-400 just for starters.

http://www.airfleets.net/flottecie/Malaysia%20Airlines-stored-b747.htm

Malaysia has 1/2 B747-400

Not much at Singapore Airlines or Cathay Pacific.

Still there may also be scope for squeezing a few additional flights from existing metal.
 
JRadier
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RE: Qantas Grounds Entire Airline

Sat Oct 29, 2011 12:39 pm

Quoting tayser (Reply 119):

Lets ground the whole fleet when the VAST majority of which is domestic based and therefore IMMUNE from the problems and competitive risks the international flights (cheaper Asian and M.E. labour) are susceptible to.

Not sure how this works at QF, from what I read the Engineers are locked out. I think you would need them for getting domestic aircraft to fly (thus grounding them effectively), but please do correct me if I'm wrong!
 
bthebest
Posts: 437
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RE: Qantas Grounds Entire Airline

Sat Oct 29, 2011 12:50 pm

Quoting bennett123 (Reply 123):
Malaysia has 1/2 B747-400

is that a B727-200 then  
 
babybus
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RE: Qantas Grounds Entire Airline

Sat Oct 29, 2011 12:52 pm

Quoting Springbok747 (Reply 14):
Just the ones who are hell bent on running a national airline into the ground..while accepting a $5 million pay check.

How does that CEO reckon he is worth £5,000,000? Someone worth that sort of money should have the talent to avert a strike and ensure harmony within the airline ranks.

Someone needs to get their money back as soon as possible before he gladly walks off into the sunset.  
 
anstar
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RE: Qantas Grounds Entire Airline

Sat Oct 29, 2011 1:04 pm

Do they have 2 spare 747's (I know they have 1) to cover the SYD-

Quoting BoeingVista (Reply 97):
On the other hand Virgin seem to be expanding in Australia and raising wages, hummmm.

And Virgin wages are still miles behind Qantas wages!
 
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aerdingus
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RE: Qantas Grounds Entire Airline

Sat Oct 29, 2011 1:09 pm

Quoting Springbok747 (Reply 4):

Can't understand why QF needed this Irish joker.
Quoting mariner (Reply 16):
Then why mention that he is, originally, Irish?

Yep, nothing really to do with him being Irish.
 
bthebest
Posts: 437
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RE: Qantas Grounds Entire Airline

Sat Oct 29, 2011 1:11 pm

Maybe VA could borrow the VS A340 that's waiting around for Cameron & co.?

And Gillard could borrow an RNZAF 757s for the CHOGM delegations?
 
SCL767
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RE: Qantas Grounds Entire Airline

Sat Oct 29, 2011 1:14 pm

Quoting tayser (Reply 121):
does NZ, SQ, MH, CX have a few spare 320s/330s/777s/737s? Gonna need 'em!

LA has two flights operating SCL-AKL-SYD today, the first flight departed SCL early this morning. The second flight will depart SCL at 23:40. LA is rerouting its pax booked on LA4518/QF18 (EZE-SYD) onto LA's flights to SYD tonight and tomorrow since QF has cancelled its EZE-SYD flight today.
 
VHSMM
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RE: Qantas Grounds Entire Airline

Sat Oct 29, 2011 1:20 pm

Are Qantas staff paid on the basis of seniority (ie length of service) or performance?
 
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jetfuel
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RE: Qantas Grounds Entire Airline

Sat Oct 29, 2011 1:21 pm

Expect QF to be back in the air next week
 
baroque
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RE: Qantas Grounds Entire Airline

Sat Oct 29, 2011 1:26 pm

Quoting ZuluAlpha (Reply 31):
I feel sorry for the guys in reservations and at the airport,

One comment that can be safely backed, they must be having a miserable few days.

Quoting BoeingVista (Reply 38):
Lost for words..

Well, not quite happily BV!!!! Go for it!!

Quoting Quokka (Reply 44):
Interesting that no indication was given to the AGM that this is what the board was intending on doing. I doubt that the meeting would not been as "polite" as it was.

Curious contrast between this and:

Quoting mariner (Reply 64):
At the AGM yesterday the shareholders - the owners of the airline - gave him and the Board effective carte blanche to do what they believe is necessary.

that one. While Mariner is better at reading between lines than most of us, clearly the action was timed to be after the meeting, so if there was supposed to be carte blanche and he was 96 or 98% backed (numbers seem to vary) surely a good operator would have stated the option clearly at that meeting. Not brought it on all of a sudden afterwards.

I cannot bear to count up the number of stranded passengers who now will NEVER EVER fly Qantas again. I don't think this has been thought through at all well.

With your background Mariner, does the 96%+ vote for the AJ salary not strike you as a bit strange???? Sound like the majorities that used to return Saddam Hussein to power. I know I voted against, most of the QF staff must have done, so how in heck did he get to 96%+.

Quoting art (Reply 106):
- it would have been kinder to one's customers to give them longer notice of one's intention to withdraw the service they had paid for so they could make other arrangements

To put it mildly, you would think so. Getting a lot of devoted never again customers there. Just been discussing with my wife what we would have done had this happened just before she flew back from CGK. As best we can work out, one perfectly good A333 will be sitting parked at CGK for the duration, and QF just hates being in Jakarta. I noticed her flight was off 15 mins early!!

Quoting allrite (Reply 116):
* This is likely not Alan Joyce's decision, it is Chairman Leigh Clifford and the board probably responsible for this lockout. Joyce will likely be the scapegoat and no wonder he'd be after more money.

Could well be. And while this is not the place, one could go through LCs worse decisions while in charge of Rio TInto and losing out on coking coal. This is just as stupid.

Quoting jupiter2 (Reply 122):
jupiter2

Nice post Jupiter.

Those who think that the Government will not move to avoid upsetting unions seem to be dead wrong. The Fair Work whateve it is has just retired to decide what to rule, and one thing is seem able to rule is back to work guys, and that will include AJ and his merry band of pirates. Waiting for the ruling as I write just after midnight Sat E Aus summer time, so they are not standing on a lot of ceremony. The test seems to be economic damage.

You would think QF is on a two way loser there. If the whatever rules no important economic damage, then QF is irrelevant and if there is then QF should never have shut down in the first place.
 
kaitak
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RE: Qantas Grounds Entire Airline

Sat Oct 29, 2011 1:28 pm

Will QF be putting pax on other carriers? Will the government direct them to; with so many Commonwealth leaders in PER booked on QF flights, they will presumably have to do it in this case, but what about the "ordinary Joes"? What is QF going to do in this case.

And if QF does not re-book pax on other flights,will they leave themselves open to legal action and/or fines, either in Australia or in other countries? After all, QF's management made the decision to ground the airline. If I were flying with QF today or during the strike, what is to stop me seeking an injunction requiring QF to put me on another carrier (costs to QF of course!)?

[Edited 2011-10-29 06:30:30]
 
baroque
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RE: Qantas Grounds Entire Airline

Sat Oct 29, 2011 1:31 pm

Quoting jetfuel (Reply 132):
Expect QF to be back in the air next week

Don't know your reason, but    Could be Monday depending on logistics. Not a great day for Australia lost an airline and far too many soldiers in Afghanistan. Maybe the QF board should be sent there for a study tour on difficult conditions. I will happily stump up part of the fare, but I think the RAAF would be happy to take them gratis, and put them in their club accommodation for good measure.
 
baroque
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RE: Qantas Grounds Entire Airline

Sat Oct 29, 2011 1:33 pm

Quoting kaitak (Reply 134):
If I were flying with QF today or during the strike, what is to stop me seeking an injunction requiring QF to put me on another carrier (costs to QF of course!)?

Possibly that the Commonwealth gov has beaten you to the draw, although even if Jetfuel and I are correct, there will still be a number caught at the margins.
 
mandala499
Posts: 6600
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RE: Qantas Grounds Entire Airline

Sat Oct 29, 2011 1:33 pm

Quoting Baroque (Reply 133):
Getting a lot of devoted never again customers there. Just been discussing with my wife what we would have done had this happened just before she flew back from CGK. As best we can work out, one perfectly good A333 will be sitting parked at CGK for the duration, and QF just hates being in Jakarta. I noticed her flight was off 15 mins early!!

Haha! And the crew will fly back to SYD via DPS on Jetstar I guess !   

So, Joyce took the Nuclear option, will one side give, or will it end up in Mutually Assured Destruction? (MAD)?

Well, for QF to survive, the costs have to go down... in the end, survival, may be a lose-lose option after this nuclear move!

Mandala499
 
cchan
Posts: 979
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RE: Qantas Grounds Entire Airline

Sat Oct 29, 2011 1:34 pm

Quoting kaitak (Reply 134):
Will QF be putting pax on other carriers?

Stranded transit passengers at MEL from QF29 were put on TG to HKG via BKK.
 
Eagleboy
Posts: 1876
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RE: Qantas Grounds Entire Airline

Sat Oct 29, 2011 1:40 pm

Quoting kl911 (Reply 82):
Unions should really be forbidden, see how much damage they do to airline and employees. Employees signed a contract so should stick to it.

The other side of that coin is that the employer should abide by the contract they sign with their employees.

I think that unions are a necessary evil. Then can wield too much power and/or be far too militant but in some places they ARE NEEDED to protect workers from being exploited and/or treated like dirt. Please note that this grounding is a mgmt/board decision, the union didn't create it.

In the last 4 years my contract has be renegotiated twice. So in that sense my employer (through disastrous mgmt decisions) has damaged my company and due to this has reneged on the mutual contract we signed. In 4 years I have taken a 20% pay cut and am now 10% more productive, yet at the same time our mgmt have got a bonus and their are more of them.

It was the fact that I am in a union that prevented them from reducing my take home pay by 50%.



No one is innocent in this QF dispute:
-maybe the unions are too militant,
-maybe the mgmt refuse to discuss compromise with the unions,
-maybe the unons refuse to talk at al to the mgmt,
-maybe the mgmt/board want to break the unions,
-maybe there is an agenda for QF to effectively 'close' and re-open as Qantas II with a Jetstar cost base?
 
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jetfuel
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RE: Qantas Grounds Entire Airline

Sat Oct 29, 2011 1:44 pm

Quoting Baroque (Reply 135):
uoting jetfuel (Reply 132):
Expect QF to be back in the air next week

Don't know your reason, but    Could be Monday depending on logistics. Not a great day for Australia lost an airline and far too many soldiers in Afghanistan. Maybe the QF board should be sent there for a study tour on difficult conditions. I will happily stump up part of the fare, but I think the RAAF would be happy to take them gratis, and put them in their club accommodation for good measure.

I am firmly a believer that this is all a very planned and premeditated move by Qantas. Qantas is confident that Fair Work Australia will order the end of actions quickly. Its costing Qantas at least $25M a day, and probably more.

They wont let it drag on too long - a month of this and Qantas would be broke. Remember Qantas can order the planes back in the air at any time. Other carriers are already trying to move in additional fleet ( I heard EY A340) for Virgin. If Virgin can bring in enough fleet then the pressure on FWA diminishes as the crippling of the country is less of an issue.

My guess is 2-3 days and we will see the planes heading back into the skies.

IMO Qantas has an agenda. It starts with the board. There's a lot to it but it culminates in an amendment of the Qantas Act, on the basis that this is Qantas'only survival
 
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jetfuel
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RE: Qantas Grounds Entire Airline

Sat Oct 29, 2011 1:46 pm

Quoting Eagleboy (Reply 139):
maybe there is an agenda for QF to effectively 'close' and re-open as Qantas II with a Jetstar cost base?

IMO Qantas has an agenda. It starts with the board. There's a lot to it but it culminates in an amendment of the Qantas Act, on the basis that this is Qantas' only survival
 
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MillwallSean
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RE: Qantas Grounds Entire Airline

Sat Oct 29, 2011 1:47 pm

Quoting mmedford (Reply 24):

No Good CEO don't always cost good money...there are MANY CEOs out there that work for a reasonable rate; eg: Warren Buffet.
Quoting weebie (Reply 33):
Australians are high earners but want the same benefits that Americans and Brits get which is cheap products and services. For many companies including QF the only viable option to survive is to offshore work into Asia.

Australians are not the highest earners by far but they earn more than people in Asia.

I don't understand the desperation.
QF is making a decent profit and still choose to go nuclear over rather unclear issues.

I say look at Lufthansa.
They are situated in a country where labour legislation is a lot more rigid and powerful than in Australia and where unions are much stronger.
I also say look at Southwest. They don't have these issues. They are in a country where the labour legislation is weaker but they manage to keep morale and employee relations high through honesty, good communication and through good corporate management.

I question if this colossal wealth destruction really was necessary.
I also question why QF can't compete being based in Australia when Virgin obviously can and when airlines such as KL and LH thrives in more competitive markets with a more rigid labour legislation.

This grounding is bad for shareholders, bad for corporate contracts and gives Qantas worldwide negative headlines.
Was this really necessary at this moment? Is this good management?
or is this just a big ego?

My suggestion is that whatever happens with this situation a new CEO and some new faces in top management is necessary to create trust and create a move forward atmosphere after this. Productivity will suffer as a result, it always does, even after the situation has been resolved. That often leads to higher losses than the actual work stoppage.
Also next time they recruit a new CEO, why not recruit one that has handled labour situations in regulated and unionised environments such as Continental Europe?.

As I understand it Australian unions don't operate with solidarity clauses.
Thats lucky for management and the unions havent done their homework, solidarity clause would mean that when an employer locks people out all other union employees stop working with that particular company.
Causes havoc since every employee stop doing their job, nu fuel, no cleaning no maintenance no dispatch nothing. No one that collects rubbish at HQ etc etc etc. I assume that's not allowed in Australia.

I also question how a CEO thinks if he on day 1 gives himself 5 million dollars and on day 2 says employees should accept worse conditions.
Its not smooth...
Its like adding fuel to fire. Feels like the ego has taken over.
 
baroque
Posts: 12302
Joined: Thu Apr 27, 2006 2:15 pm

RE: Qantas Grounds Entire Airline

Sat Oct 29, 2011 1:50 pm

Quoting mandala499 (Reply 137):
Haha! And the crew will fly back to SYD via DPS on Jetstar I guess !

That is about what I concluded we would have had to do, GA to DPS and then Jetstar IF QF deigned to honour the ticket!! Meanwhile herself would have had three pink fits, if not more and I would imagine that is what is happening now in so many places around the world. It certainly hurts more if you imagine yourself or your own family in the present mess.

Quoting mandala499 (Reply 137):
Mutually Assured Destruction? (MAD)?


Looks like MAD already, must go and hear an update on the court case. Commission has resumed and QF giving evidence, Good, we might get a clear statement finally on what QF was offering and what the Unions wanted.

On the move to Asia, someone commented somewhere (I got a bit lost because a.net decided to have a hissy fit over my password) about how encouraging the history with the Vietnam venture should have been with senior QF staff locked up for what seemed normal commercial arrangements on hedging fuel - ie you win some and you lose some. Whatever makes QF think that operations in Asia will be any more under its control than ones in Australia.
 
usscvr
Posts: 65
Joined: Sat Jan 30, 2010 2:03 pm

RE: Qantas Grounds Entire Airline

Sat Oct 29, 2011 1:51 pm

Quoting weebie (Reply 5):
Brilliant move in my opinion. It's crunch time now for the Unions.


You are so right. In this economic climate, even unions can take a haircut for the long-term survival of the company.
 
AussieItaliano
Posts: 344
Joined: Sun Jan 30, 2005 12:27 pm

RE: Qantas Grounds Entire Airline

Sat Oct 29, 2011 1:53 pm

Quoting mah4546 (Reply 39):
Weakening - and working towards eliminating - unions is a major step towards creating a healthier airline industry worldwide.

and also towards eliminating the middle class.

Quoting Quokka (Reply 44):
Some do question the demand that employees tighten their belts while the CEO lets his belt out another couple of notches.

Exactly! If they're going to replace workers with cheaper labour from Asia, why can't they find a CEO who is willing to do the job for cheaper.

Don't get me wrong, I don't think that everything the unions do is great, but what do you expect them to do in a situation like this? Are they expected to just roll over and take it without trying to minimize the impact on their members? I'm glad that someone still at least has the guts to make demands of their employers.

A lot gets said about how the workers should be "grateful to even have a job", especially in this economy. I see truth in this, but management and shareholders ought to be equally grateful to have such a dedicated work-force that had earned the airline a great reputation over the many years that QF had been in business, at least until this debacle. As others have mentioned, the real winner here is Virgin, as well as the other international carriers who will gain business as a result.
 
NAV20
Posts: 8453
Joined: Thu Nov 27, 2003 3:25 pm

RE: Qantas Grounds Entire Airline

Sat Oct 29, 2011 1:57 pm

Quoting jetfuel (Reply 132):
Expect QF to be back in the air next week

Could be sooner. There's a government mob called 'Fair Work Australia' that has powers to suspend industrial action if it entails "..significant damage to the Australian economy." I guess that none of us would dispute that any continued or increased strike action by the Qantas unions simply can't avoid doing that?

To confirm that that issue 'has legs,' I should record that the relevant court is currently still sitting. It's a quarter to one in the morning here in Melbourne.......

My best guess is that the court will order the unions to suspend any and all industrial action 'for the duration' - probably as soon as tomorrow - to 'protect the economy.' From then on, it will be a matter of how quickly (and of course whether) the various parties can reconcile their differences to the point where Qantas can continue flying.

http://www.theage.com.au/travel/qant...d-for-saturday-20111029-1mpml.html

Must admit that I find myself disliking BOTH sides of this dispute. The Qantas unions are far too used to always getting their way - but that Joyce guy just strikes me as a complete freak..........
 
baroque
Posts: 12302
Joined: Thu Apr 27, 2006 2:15 pm

RE: Qantas Grounds Entire Airline

Sat Oct 29, 2011 1:59 pm

Quoting jetfuel (Reply 140):
I am firmly a believer that this is all a very planned and premeditated move by Qantas. Qantas is confident that Fair Work Australia will order the end of actions quickly. Its costing Qantas at least $25M a day, and probably more.

According to an item on ABC News 24 QF has spent millions in preparations, not the least of which were legal preparations long before Friday's meeting. And that looks more and more like a bad joke. Wonder if the funds were told tis was in the offing before they voted for the board?

Quoting jetfuel (Reply 140):
My guess is 2-3 days and we will see the planes heading back into the skies.

   but even so as MillwallS points out, the damage already done is huge. It must be at least as bad for QF as a major accident.

Quoting jetfuel (Reply 140):
IMO Qantas has an agenda. It starts with the board. There's a lot to it but it culminates in an amendment of the Qantas Act, on the basis that this is Qantas'only survival

I will bet that the Qantas Act has never been so carefully read as since AJ popped up Sat pm with his wondrous announcement. Is anything in Spyware Doctor that can be programmed to eliminate his appearance?
 
richardw
Posts: 3168
Joined: Tue May 08, 2001 3:17 am

RE: Qantas Grounds Entire Airline

Sat Oct 29, 2011 2:01 pm

Are there any long hauls still in the air? Looks like QF 7 is still on its way to DFW.

[Edited 2011-10-29 07:06:28]
 
BlatantEcho
Posts: 2132
Joined: Wed Sep 27, 2000 10:11 am

RE: Qantas Grounds Entire Airline

Sat Oct 29, 2011 2:05 pm

As a few others have said, it's good to see a company make difficult decisions instead of twiddling their thumbs.

I've operated companies in a similar position (though thankfully without the union component) and it's tough.... you get to a point where you have to do *something* to stop the bleeding. In our case, we sold and basically closed the doors, but you have to act, you can't just wait and wait and wait.


Good luck breaking the unions! I think this will be the major efforts of many companies in the next 20 years, should be interesting to watch. As more people are out of work and the unions continue to demand above market pay and entitlements.... unfortunately it will likely get very ugly.


** And, for the record, I'm not really *anti-union* in the sense that a union automatically makes people stupid/lazy. I realize there are some unions for low skilled labor that are beneficial for both workers and companies. And, heck, everyone has the right to freely associate and make any union they want -- who could blame an hourly worker from trying to get more money?!

I am very very much against the non-practical nature of collective bargaining and allowing workers to be judged not on their performance or skills, but simply on their rank and file in a group. That's not competitive or fair.
 
User avatar
BoeingVista
Posts: 2072
Joined: Mon Jan 12, 2009 9:54 am

RE: Qantas Grounds Entire Airline

Sat Oct 29, 2011 2:06 pm

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 146):
My best guess is that the court will order the unions to suspend any and all industrial action 'for the duration' - probably as soon as tomorrow - to 'protect the economy.' From then on, it will be a matter of how quickly (and of course whether) the various parties can reconcile their differences to the point where Qantas can continue flying.

My best guess is that the court will tell BOTH sides to suspend any and all industrial action (as the Qantas lock out is ALSO 'protected' (under law) industrial action for 21 days which will stop the strikes and get the planes back in the air; if both sides cannot come to an agreement after that then the govt may have to think about enforcing an agreement.

If the court does not think that grounding Qantas passes the "..significant damage to the Australian economy." test then nothing will.

Its ironic that all sides are against the government and FWA getting involved.
 
User avatar
Zkpilot
Posts: 4613
Joined: Wed Mar 08, 2006 8:21 pm

RE: Qantas Grounds Entire Airline

Sat Oct 29, 2011 2:06 pm

Quoting QFFlyer (Reply 72):

...and how much did he get paid while at the CBA??? So complain about the current wages for CEO and suggest someone else who got paid more in previous position?

and how big is CBA? As of today its market cap is A$78,748,832,694.
Qantas is at A$3,499,615,993!
So CBA is 22.5x (or 2250% larger). I think the CEO of a company that is whole magnitudes of scale larger (and with much greater return on earnings I might add) perhaps should be paid more (especially when said company did not screw up in the GFC).
 
baroque
Posts: 12302
Joined: Thu Apr 27, 2006 2:15 pm

RE: Qantas Grounds Entire Airline

Sat Oct 29, 2011 2:07 pm

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 146):
Must admit that I find myself disliking BOTH sides of this dispute. The Qantas unions are far too used to always getting their way - but that Joyce guy just strikes me as a complete freak..........

Glad you are back NAV.

And we can agree on both parties to blame. The only question is will the court rule tonight that QF needs to fly its planes, or if they will reserve a decision until later Sunday. And what will cross-examination of QF reveal. That is going on as we write one gathers.

News from SIN that there is chaos. And QF crew told not to tell anyone anything "complete mess". Heathrow, "out of the window". The TV stations will have a field day with vox pops.

And every one will be an ad against QF. Really Mr Joyce, this is worse than Trujillo. And that is a really low benchmark.
 
User avatar
longhauler
Posts: 6488
Joined: Sat Mar 06, 2004 12:00 am

RE: Qantas Grounds Entire Airline

Sat Oct 29, 2011 2:08 pm

I appears to be very poor "optics" that the shareholders backed hefty pay raises to senior executives, within hours of shutting down the airline demanding everyone else take a pay cut!
 
tayser
Posts: 436
Joined: Sat Mar 29, 2008 10:49 pm

RE: Qantas Grounds Entire Airline

Sat Oct 29, 2011 2:09 pm

Quoting richardw (Reply 148):

I doubt QF9 would have continued on to LHR, would have been flying the MEL-SIN leg when they announced the grounding - probably same boat with QF29 and QF93. QF10 and QF30 will probably be stuck in LHR or HKG/SIN. same boat for ex-SYD flights

QF94's in the air now and will land in MEL and stay there it looks like.
 
baroque
Posts: 12302
Joined: Thu Apr 27, 2006 2:15 pm

RE: Qantas Grounds Entire Airline

Sat Oct 29, 2011 2:11 pm

Quoting BoeingVista (Reply 150):
Its ironic that all sides are against the government and FWA getting involved.

Too late to worry about FWA now!!! Hope it turns out to have teeth and will use them. Both parties need to be saved from themselves it seems.

Let us see how FWA goes now it has a real test. Interesting and I know who will be most interested in its performance tonight!
 
User avatar
BoeingVista
Posts: 2072
Joined: Mon Jan 12, 2009 9:54 am

RE: Qantas Grounds Entire Airline

Sat Oct 29, 2011 2:11 pm

OK, well the word on the streets is no FWA court decision tonight, lawyers now involved, demanding the right to cross examine each other so court will adjourn and reconvene tomorrow morning.

So we will have the battle of the Sunday morning talk shows, all talking heads leave is cancelled!

[Edited 2011-10-29 07:33:03]

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