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srbmod
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Qantas Grounds Entire Airline Pt. 2

Sat Oct 29, 2011 6:30 pm

Continuing the discussion from the following thread:

Qantas Grounds Entire Airline (by PanAm_DC10 Oct 28 2011 in Civil Aviation)

A reminder on behalf of the Moderators. Please keep your posts within the boundaries of the Forum Rules and please refrain from personal attacks and insulting remarks. Debate the topic, not the user.
 
Flyingfox27
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RE: Qantas Grounds Entire Airline Pt. 2

Sat Oct 29, 2011 6:34 pm

Just came back from LHR and thought it was sad to see both A380s and VH-OJG parked up, was gonna get the last two daytime departures, iam glad they were late on the 15th when i got them that time. I just hope they survive.
 
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mariner
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RE: Qantas Grounds Entire Airline Pt. 2

Sat Oct 29, 2011 6:49 pm

Mr. Joyce is copping all the flak, but the real moved and shaker here is probably the Qantas Chairman, Leigh Clifford:

http://www.businessspectator.com.au/...ions-pd20111029-N4BGB?OpenDocument

"I know Qantas chief executive Alan Joyce but I know his chairman Leigh Clifford much better. Now the Qantas chairman has taken this drastic step the Leigh Clifford I know will not back down.

Leigh Clifford, more than any other person in Australia, changed the culture of the workplace in the mining industry and made Australia one of the most productive mining areas in the world."


It's the sort of confrontation - union v. management/who runs the company - that happens every few years in Australia.

mariner
 
SInGAPORE_AIR
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RE: Qantas Grounds Entire Airline Pt. 2

Sat Oct 29, 2011 7:14 pm

What has been largely lost in all of this, at least from reading the various forums, is that Qantas passengers have been held hostage to an industrial dispute.

Qantas passengers have been turned into pawns in this game of industrial relations brinksmanship. I for one would be furious for my flight, which could feasibly have been despatched (albeit perhaps an hour or two late), to be arbitrarily cancelled in this manner.

I think it shows utter contempt for Qantas passengers and their travel plans let alone the indirect impact on friends/family, co-workers, meetings and events that were to be attended.

This is amplified by the various musings coming out that this was planned way in advance. Doesn’t Qantas have a duty of care to its passengers to perhaps tell them that the flight that they have paid for and thus depend upon is not going to leave ?

Finally, this industrial relations tactic appears to be cynical in the extreme - shutting down Qantas mainline using the unions as an excuse knowing full-well that the Australian Government would intervene and reverse the grounding a few days later.

Passengers will be remembering the disruption that Qantas imposed on them at the whim of the Qantas CEO Alan Joyce and will hopefully explore and be loyal to other and, amongst other things, more reliable travel providers.

My sympathy to those passengers.
 
Springbok747
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RE: Qantas Grounds Entire Airline Pt. 2

Sat Oct 29, 2011 7:51 pm

They are asking for a 3% pay rise..inflation is at 3.5%..the CEO gets a 71% pay rise...profits at QF have doubled to more than $250 million...so what is the problem here?
 
Ferroviarius
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RE: Qantas Grounds Entire Airline Pt. 2

Sat Oct 29, 2011 8:21 pm

Quoting Springbok747 (Reply 4):
They are asking for a 3% pay rise..inflation is at 3.5%..the CEO gets a 71% pay rise...profits at QF have doubled to more than $250 million...so what is the problem here?

So called "Market Economy", also known as "Capitalism".
 
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Revelation
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RE: Qantas Grounds Entire Airline Pt. 2

Sat Oct 29, 2011 8:36 pm

Quoting SInGAPORE_AIR (Reply 3):
What has been largely lost in all of this, at least from reading the various forums, is that Qantas passengers have been held hostage to an industrial dispute.

Somehow you stopped short of saying "... by QANTAS management".

I see you got to that point later, thankfully.

Quoting SInGAPORE_AIR (Reply 3):
This is amplified by the various musings coming out that this was planned way in advance.

And given how the management chose the moment after giving the CEO a big pay raise and while world leaders were meeting in Perth, it seems their planning sucked too.

Quoting SInGAPORE_AIR (Reply 3):
Passengers will be remembering the disruption that Qantas imposed on them at the whim of the Qantas CEO Alan Joyce and will hopefully explore and be loyal to other and, amongst other things, more reliable travel providers.

Some will and some won't.

However, embarrassing and inconveniencing the ruling class won't ever be forgotten.

I bet FWA orders the lockout canceled or suspended, and so the lockout will have accomplished absolutely nothing, except to draw huge amounts of attention to AJ's pay raise and to piss off the ruling class.

Own goal indeed...
 
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NZ107
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RE: Qantas Grounds Entire Airline Pt. 2

Sat Oct 29, 2011 9:48 pm

2pm AEDT is the latest we'll hear from the meeting with Fair Work Australia. I wonder what the outcome is going to be.. It has already disrupted so many thousands of people around the world.
 
laxboeingman
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RE: Qantas Grounds Entire Airline Pt. 2

Sat Oct 29, 2011 9:52 pm

The employees were locked out as of October 29 not October 31. I am pasting the link to the QF web page below. It is never good when there is a union dispute, especially when it is of this magnitude. I do not believe the unions or management will let this go on for a long time, especially if they want to prove they put the pax first, but I do not expect this to be that short as well. I am sorry it had to get to this point.

http://www.qantas.com.au/travel/airlines/disruptions/global/en

Virgin Australia is going to see a large spike in sales.

I hope everything turns out well for the sake of all parties involved, the pax included.

Thank you in advance for all comments.

laxboeingman
 
nascarnut
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RE: Qantas Grounds Entire Airline Pt. 2

Sat Oct 29, 2011 9:55 pm

Does anyone know who is doing the ground handling for those airlines operating into Australia that Qantas handled.
If it is still the regular QF workers then they will be currently doing half the work for the same pay.
Not too bad a deal for them at the moment.
 
tayser
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RE: Qantas Grounds Entire Airline Pt. 2

Sat Oct 29, 2011 9:56 pm

Dick bloody Smith on ABC24 blaming Australia's open skies for QF's demise. That's all we need, calls for protectionism! For crying out loud, get him off!
 
tayser
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RE: Qantas Grounds Entire Airline Pt. 2

Sat Oct 29, 2011 10:03 pm

as expected, http://www.flightradar24.com/ is pretty empty over Australia at the moment.

looks like JQ are using some of their 330s between MEL and SYD this morning (JQ991)
 
SonomaFlyer
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RE: Qantas Grounds Entire Airline Pt. 2

Sat Oct 29, 2011 10:05 pm

Open skies isn't the issue. QF's competitiveness in the face of airlines such as EK are what is the issue atm. QF has to do some restructuring to remain profitable in the long term. Their fleet planning wasn't really the best either.

I can't fault the unions if their "demand" is a wage hike below the inflation rate but this is what happens in a free market; leverage is applied. A preemptive lockout however seems more than a bit absurd.
 
esdex
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RE: Qantas Grounds Entire Airline Pt. 2

Sat Oct 29, 2011 10:11 pm

Quoting mariner (Reply 2):
Mr. Joyce is copping all the flak, but the real moved and shaker here is probably the Qantas Chairman, Leigh Clifford:

http://www.businessspectator.com.au/...ions-pd20111029-N4BGB?OpenDocument

"I know Qantas chief executive Alan Joyce but I know his chairman Leigh Clifford much better. Now the Qantas chairman has taken this drastic step the Leigh Clifford I know will not back down.

Leigh Clifford, more than any other person in Australia, changed the culture of the workplace in the mining industry and made Australia one of the most productive mining areas in the world."

I wonder what ASIC and the ASX are making of the AGM being held on the Friday and then the entire Board coming up with this idea the next morning? It's fanciful to suggest that this kind course of action can be conceived and executed in a single day - shut down due to safety issues/terrorism yes, but deliberate shut down requires someone to do the numbers to determine what impact it will have on the company. And if this has been a strategic move in the plan, surely it was deserving of some kind of disclosure to shareholders at least as a potential end-game. If I was this Board's D&O insurer, I would be sending the risk management and underwriting team in to QF on Monday to ask some questions... And ALL directors better have their story straight.

Quoting SInGAPORE_AIR (Reply 3):
Passengers will be remembering the disruption that Qantas imposed on them at the whim of the Qantas CEO Alan Joyce and will hopefully explore and be loyal to other and, amongst other things, more reliable travel providers.

Absolutely correct. I have tried to be loyal to QF, however it has become very difficult and now impossible to be loyal. When the CEO pulls a stunt like this, there is no longer any reason to be loyal. I can only assume the loyalty numbers must no longer add up?
 
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OA260
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RE: Qantas Grounds Entire Airline Pt. 2

Sat Oct 29, 2011 10:14 pm

Sky News had a good piece on the strike just now. Shame they made the spelling error  http://i955.photobucket.com/albums/ae40/PhilipOA260/e0143378.jpg
 
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mariner
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RE: Qantas Grounds Entire Airline Pt. 2

Sat Oct 29, 2011 10:19 pm

Quoting esdex (Reply 13):
I wonder what ASIC and the ASX are making of the AGM being held on the Friday and then the entire Board coming up with this idea the next morning? It's fanciful to suggest that this kind course of action can be conceived and executed in a single day - shut down due to safety issues/terrorism yes, but deliberate shut down requires someone to do the numbers to determine what impact it will have on the company.

I doubt Qantas did come up with it in a single day.

But at the AGM two days ago, CEO Joyce and Chairman Clifford gave fair warning that if the industrial action continued Qantas would be gone within a year - shut down.

The shareholders - the owners of the airline - voted a 97% approval of the management's strategy, carte blanche, a free hand.

mariner

It's in here - from the horse's mouth:

http://www.smh.com.au/travel/travel-...y-option-joyce-20111030-1mq0z.html

"However, instead of the unions accepting the vote of shareholders, the unions' rhetoric got worse, he said.
"It actually escalated," Mr Joyce said.
Management then met on Saturday in a push "to do something".
He admitted that the option of grounding had previously been on the cards, saying "we always are going to be planning a whole series of different contingencies".


[Edited 2011-10-29 15:28:55]
 
Rufusisgod
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RE: Qantas Grounds Entire Airline Pt. 2

Sat Oct 29, 2011 10:30 pm

This is a big step in the dispute and i've seen this tactic used before and it wasn't long before the union memebers turned against the union and went back to the table themselves and hammered out a deal which suited both parties.

The brand damage from this is going to be hard to fix.

Good luck to all a Qantas.
 
nzstevenc
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RE: Qantas Grounds Entire Airline Pt. 2

Sat Oct 29, 2011 10:33 pm

For those of us who are less informed on the built up of this event, can anyone provide a (hopefully neutral!) summary of the union-related actions and demands to date? And what strike action was actually proposed? From reading these threads I've seen mention of:

- demands for pay increases in-line or slightly more than inflation
- wearing red ties
- non-standard announcements onboard

It seems the management view is that there are substantial losses being incurred on certain routes as operating costs are too high. What was management's strategy to address this within the existing business? The cynic in me assumes that management prefer to can Qantas as-is and replace it with Qantas Mk II: Operated by Jetstar.
 
747400sp
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RE: Qantas Grounds Entire Airline Pt. 2

Sat Oct 29, 2011 10:37 pm

Why this had to happen to QF! Why could this not happen to BA or DJ.
 
Honza
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RE: Qantas Grounds Entire Airline Pt. 2

Sat Oct 29, 2011 10:40 pm

Quoting OA260 (Reply 14):
Shame they made the spelling error

...occurs everytime media speak about Qantas 
 
81819
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RE: Qantas Grounds Entire Airline Pt. 2

Sat Oct 29, 2011 10:42 pm

Quoting Revelation (Reply 6):
it seems their planning sucked too

Originally, I thought the same, but grounding flights at 5.00pm Saturday does give people more opportunity to re-plan for the following week.

From my limited understanding of the Fair Work Act the arbitrator can make a ruling for all parties to cease industrial action very quickly. From the reports I have seen it could be the case the airline is back in the air on Monday.

Not a bad outcome and over the longer term less disruptive for passengers.
 
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mariner
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RE: Qantas Grounds Entire Airline Pt. 2

Sat Oct 29, 2011 10:47 pm

Quoting travelhound (Reply 20):
From my limited understanding of the Fair Work Act the arbitrator can make a ruling for all parties to cease industrial action very quickly. From the reports I have seen it could be the case the airline is back in the air on Monday.

Watch the wording when the ruling comes out. Qantas wants a "termination" of the industrial action - the unions want a "suspension":

http://www.smh.com.au/travel/travel-...y-option-joyce-20111030-1mq0z.html

"Qantas CEO Alan Joyce says Fair Work Australia (FWA) would need to order a termination of industrial action from the airline's unions if they want to be certain about getting the fleet back in the air.

Emergency FWA hearings are being held at the request of the government after Qantas made the shock announcement on Saturday to immediately ground its domestic and international flights and lock out engineers, pilots and other employees, beginning on Monday night.

Mr Joyce says he is hoping the Fair Work panel will order a termination on Sunday."


So it is possible that only a termination of industrial action will get the planes back in the air.

mariner
 
474218
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RE: Qantas Grounds Entire Airline Pt. 2

Sat Oct 29, 2011 10:58 pm

Quoting Springbok747 (Reply 4):
They are asking for a 3% pay rise..inflation is at 3.5%..the CEO gets a 71% pay rise...profits at QF have doubled to more than $250 million...so what is the problem here?

Qantas is also effected by that 3.5% inflation. Add to that a 3% raise and how much of that $250 million profit is left?

As for the CEO's 71% raise, he earned that by making the $250 million profit.

I wish people would stop worrying about what other people make and concentrate on making as much for themselves as possible.
 
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BoeingVista
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RE: Qantas Grounds Entire Airline Pt. 2

Sat Oct 29, 2011 11:02 pm

Quoting mariner (Reply 21):

Mr Joyce says he is hoping the Fair Work panel will order a termination on Sunday."

So it is possible that only a termination of industrial action will get the planes back in the air.

Can he refuse to put the planes back in the air if FWA only orders a suspension? Technically I don't think he can, but he can invoke safety which would be a problem for the court to over rule.

What powers does FWA have to enforce whatever it decides?

And now Mr Joyce apears on inside business...
 
NTLDaz
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RE: Qantas Grounds Entire Airline Pt. 2

Sat Oct 29, 2011 11:03 pm

Quoting mariner (Reply 21):
Watch the wording when the ruling comes out. Qantas wants a "termination" of the industrial action - the unions want a "suspension":

So essentially Qantas want to have their cake and eat it.This whole episode by Qantas mgt leaves a very bad taste in my mouth when it comes to Qantas.
 
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mariner
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RE: Qantas Grounds Entire Airline Pt. 2

Sat Oct 29, 2011 11:10 pm

Quoting BoeingVista (Reply 23):
Can he refuse to put the planes back in the air if FWA only orders a suspension? .

He seems to think he can and I guess - only guess - Qantas has taken expert legal advice.

He's what CEO Joyce has said:

""A termination stops the lockout, but we have to make a decision about putting the airline back in the air," Mr Joyce told Sky News on Sunday.

"A suspension may not necessarily mean the airline gets back in the air.

"If it's a suspension, we cannot put the planes back in the air without having certainty.

"A termination gives us certainty, a suspension, depending on what the suspension looks like, does not necessarily give us certainty."


mariner
 
81819
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RE: Qantas Grounds Entire Airline Pt. 2

Sat Oct 29, 2011 11:15 pm

Quoting mariner (Reply 21):
Watch the wording when the ruling comes out. Qantas wants a "termination" of the industrial action - the unions want a "suspension":

Yes, I sore that!

From the same article
Quote:
A termination stops the lockout, but we have to make a decision about putting the airline back in the air," Mr Joyce told Sky News on Sunday.

The gloves are off.
 
StuckInCA
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RE: Qantas Grounds Entire Airline Pt. 2

Sat Oct 29, 2011 11:22 pm

Quoting 474218 (Reply 22):
I wish people would stop worrying about what other people make and concentrate on making as much for themselves as possible.

Uh, isn't that what they are doing?
 
koruman
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RE: Qantas Grounds Entire Airline Pt. 2

Sat Oct 29, 2011 11:26 pm

I have been critical of Qantas' long-haul product recently compared with the likes of Air New Zealand, but at the end of the day I have flown them on seven sectors in the last fortnight, including one in Business Class to North America.

But my week has been thrown into turmoil as I was due to fly to Perth and back on them.

I find it bad enough that Qantas management has shown such hostility and disrespect to its staff less than two months before Christmas.

But the fact that Qantas management has been so inconsiderate of its passengers and put me to so much trouble means that I will never, ever buy a Qantas or Jetstar ticket again.

And so I'm now about to write to Virgin Australia to ask whether they might let me do a status match even though the deadline has passed.......
 
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BoeingVista
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RE: Qantas Grounds Entire Airline Pt. 2

Sat Oct 29, 2011 11:27 pm

Quoting mariner (Reply 25):

He seems to think he can and I guess - only guess - Qantas has taken expert legal advice.

Legal advice can often turn out to be wrong when tested in the courts

Quoting mariner (Reply 25):
"A suspension may not necessarily mean the airline gets back in the air.

If FWA orders a suspension and AJ refuses to unground the airline then we will see more court action which could be costly

Joyce says that the airline could be up an flying within 6 hours of approval from CASA
 
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BoeingVista
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RE: Qantas Grounds Entire Airline Pt. 2

Sat Oct 29, 2011 11:29 pm

Quoting koruman (Reply 28):
I have been critical of Qantas' long-haul product recently compared with the likes of Air New Zealand, but at the end of the day I have flown them on seven sectors in the last fortnight, including one in Business Class to North America

10 across in a 777? No thank you.
 
CX Flyboy
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RE: Qantas Grounds Entire Airline Pt. 2

Sat Oct 29, 2011 11:41 pm

Quoting mariner (Reply 15):
I doubt Qantas did come up with it in a single day.

There are indications that Joyce spoke to several other airline CEOs a couple of weeks ago about this and how the other airlines could step in to help passengers.
 
474218
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RE: Qantas Grounds Entire Airline Pt. 2

Sat Oct 29, 2011 11:44 pm

Quoting StuckInCA (Reply 27):
Uh, isn't that what they are doing?

No.

Unions employ collective bargaining. Everyone with the same classification, regardless of their ability gets the same raise.

I believe that the individual should be allowed to bargain for themselves.
 
CX Flyboy
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RE: Qantas Grounds Entire Airline Pt. 2

Sat Oct 29, 2011 11:54 pm

Quoting 474218 (Reply 33):
I believe that the individual should be allowed to bargain for themselves.

How would this work? Joe Bloggs knocking on the CEO's door after lunch asking if he can have a raise...pretty please?
 
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mariner
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RE: Qantas Grounds Entire Airline Pt. 2

Sun Oct 30, 2011 12:10 am

I'm enjoying this. I recognize the seriousness of the issue, but I didn't expect Mr. Joyce to have such big iron balls.

I suspect that some of the union leaders underestimated him, too (and I would guess his sexuality plays into that), and have come on like over-muscled apes. I'm amused to see them acting hurt - "we only wanted to negoitiate."

It is a clear exercise in union neutralization and I'm interested to see how it plays out.

mariner

[Edited 2011-10-30 15:41:46 by srbmod]
 
wn700driver
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RE: Qantas Grounds Entire Airline Pt. 2

Sun Oct 30, 2011 12:18 am

Quoting CX Flyboy (Reply 35):

How would this work? Joe Bloggs knocking on the CEO's door after lunch asking if he can have a raise...pretty please?

Pretty Please... Tickets to the SportsBall Super Match Finals... Big Box of proprietary information from a previous employer/competitor... Manila Envelope full of black & white photos... You know, whatever works.


I'm actually not wild about CBAs myself, but in a field where something like pilots, whose job performance can't be as easily measures as people seem to think, they're the best we've got.
 
deconz
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RE: Qantas Grounds Entire Airline Pt. 2

Sun Oct 30, 2011 12:20 am

Quoting 474218 (Reply 33):
Unions employ collective bargaining. Everyone with the same classification, regardless of their ability gets the same raise.

I believe that the individual should be allowed to bargain for themselves.

I'm a big fan of employees getting rewarded for how well they perform their jobs - not based solely on length of service. Having lived for 6 years in London this has all the markings of the annual Tube driver heavy handed 'negotiations' - attempting to secure even better terms and holding the entire City of London to ransom in the process.
 
EDICHC
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RE: Qantas Grounds Entire Airline Pt. 2

Sun Oct 30, 2011 12:28 am

Quoting 474218 (Reply 33):
I believe that the individual should be allowed to bargain for themselves.

Ever heard of the expression 'United We Stand, Divided We Fall'?

The whole point of collective bargaining is that it gives the workforce more bargaining power. One individual has very little voice, management however have to listen to their entire workforce.

Quoting 474218 (Reply 33):
Everyone with the same classification, regardless of their ability gets the same raise.

It's called equality. If you are better than your colleague then you have a better chance of the next promotion, that is how achievement is rewarded

[Edited 2011-10-29 17:29:23]
 
5MillionMiler
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RE: Qantas Grounds Entire Airline Pt. 2

Sun Oct 30, 2011 12:29 am

This will be a textbook case study in labor negotiations when it all settles. Joyce has drawn a line in the sand. I am not sure how this will play out, time will tell and history will judge this as genius or madness based on the result.

It creates a very interesting short-term opportunity for other carriers to position for the future. They have an opportunity to have access to Qantas customers who may be very ready to switch their allegiance... and with the Qantas reimbursement policy the competitors will be nicely compensated.

This is a marketing department dream if your are a competitor. Will be interesting to see if anyone jumps in. Of course, the length of the disruption will be a key factor -- but I am very interested to see how the other players react and to see if any approach this as an aggressive market share move.
 
bralo20
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RE: Qantas Grounds Entire Airline Pt. 2

Sun Oct 30, 2011 12:30 am

Quoting CX Flyboy (Reply 35):
How would this work? Joe Bloggs knocking on the CEO's door after lunch asking if he can have a raise...pretty please?

Why not? If I want a raise and think that I'm eligible for that raise I'll just walk into the office of our CEO or the chairman and ask for it. Like we say: a no you have, a yes you can get. I've done it once, a couple of months ago after some changes at the company and I got what I asked for. A couple of years earlier I walked into his office and asked a company car because I was quite some time on the road visiting suppliers. I walked out of the office with purchase order for the car. But normally our wages are raised nearly every year so there's little need to go and ask.

So yes, depending on the type of company it's quite possible to walk into a CEO's office and ask for a raise, nothing wrong with that. But then again, we don't have over 30.000 employees, merely a few thousand spread over Europe. So our structure is a bit more family style (actually it is a family company). Our CEO is addressed with his first name, not mister x or y, idem dito for the members of the board and other executives.  

[Edited 2011-10-29 17:32:11]
 
esdex
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RE: Qantas Grounds Entire Airline Pt. 2

Sun Oct 30, 2011 12:32 am

Quoting mariner (Reply 15):
But at the AGM two days ago, CEO Joyce and Chairman Clifford gave fair warning that if the industrial action continued Qantas would be gone within a year - shut down.

The shareholders - the owners of the airline - voted a 97% approval of the management's strategy, carte blanche, a free hand.

This is true, but Directors have much higher duties of disclosure than shareholders, employees or union reps. This strategy is high risk, steers a very uncertain path and has now put passenger and regulatory trust of the airline's management onto the table as well as the industrial issues. Like I say, I wonder what the corporate regulators will make of it. I'm not saying they will do anything particular at all, especially not in the early days (except to probably suspend trading tomorrow), but this is going to play out over a much longer period re the shareprice and QF's competitive position. If I was their D&O insurer, I'd be reviewing the risks pretty tightly...
 
Argentina
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RE: Qantas Grounds Entire Airline Pt. 2

Sun Oct 30, 2011 12:33 am

It seems a B747-400 from QF is grounded in EZE, according to EZE website
Flight status is ASK AIRLINE

IB 6842 Madrid 29/10 12:50 13:14 A Despegado
JJ 8019 Sao Paulo 29/10 13:00 13:18 A Despegado
LA 456 Santiago 29/10 13:05 13:10 A Despegado
BA 244 Londres 29/10 13:25 14:00 A Despegado
QF 018 Sydney 29/10 13:55 A Consulte Cía.
 
474218
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RE: Qantas Grounds Entire Airline Pt. 2

Sun Oct 30, 2011 12:49 am

Quoting CX Flyboy (Reply 35):
How would this work? Joe Bloggs knocking on the CEO's door after lunch asking if he can have a raise...pretty please?

It works just fine.

Every year the company sets a raise pool of say 3%. Your boss (the person that knows your work the best) sets your actual raise. Do a good job get 4 or 5% a raise, do an average job get 3%, do enough to get by, get 1 or 2 %.

I worked (along with thousands of others) with that system for almost thirty years.

The naysayers will say what keeps the company from just not giving raises. Companies know to remain competitive they must retain their skills and talent. If they were offer non-competitive wage increases they would lose valuable talent.

Provides incentives do to a better job. Works much better than collective bargaining where everyone gets the same raise regardless of their work ethics!
 
antskip
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RE: Qantas Grounds Entire Airline Pt. 2

Sun Oct 30, 2011 12:51 am

Good observation, mariner. The union did not expect Joyce to be so radical, hence calling him "insane" (i.e. he didn't do the expected). But all he is doing is threatening to withdraw capital (a lockout) - the employer's equivalent to employees withdrawing labour (a strike).

Despite all the heat expressed over the past few days, I would expect both parties this afternoon will be ordered back to negotiation, and a return to the default positions of labour and capital. The losers are third parties dependent on QF - especially passengers - and much good will. The winners are alternative airlines.
 
irshava
Posts: 269
Joined: Tue Oct 04, 2011 1:11 am

RE: Qantas Grounds Entire Airline Pt. 2

Sun Oct 30, 2011 12:56 am

Singapore A380 with no callsign near Melbourne? flightradar24 error or possible capacity boost?
 
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par13del
Posts: 10939
Joined: Sun Dec 18, 2005 9:14 pm

RE: Qantas Grounds Entire Airline Pt. 2

Sun Oct 30, 2011 1:05 am

Quoting rufusisgod (Reply 16):
This is a big step in the dispute and i've seen this tactic used before and it wasn't long before the union memebers turned against the union and went back to the table themselves and hammered out a deal which suited both parties.

So individuals sitting down with management by themselves will hammer out an agreement that suits both parties??? My money is on management hammering into employees what they will get..

Quoting travelhound (Reply 20):
From my limited understanding of the Fair Work Act the arbitrator can make a ruling for all parties to cease industrial action very quickly. From the reports I have seen it could be the case the airline is back in the air on Monday.

So does that mean the strike is stopped, the out-sourcing, refusal to increase pay, it takes two hands to clap, management and union, does the arbitrator work on behalf of management and customers or management, workers and customers?

Quoting 474218 (Reply 22):
I wish people would stop worrying about what other people make and concentrate on making as much for themselves as possible.

Unfortunately, as long as employers worry about how much money they are paying employees one can expect employees to do the same, hopefully the day will come when all workers will have their needs taken care of by the state so that they can work for free. Yes I am a Star Trek Generations fan, we know how their society works.

As for Qantas future, its a unique market requiring long haul service, as a nation they have to grants rights to flights so I would not expect the government to turn over its aviation industry to foreign carriers, so Qantas or some new re-incarnation will survive, whether in the same size will be irrelevant to management, doing away with union influence is the key, an airline with 50 a/c and no union is probably desirable to 100+ with unions.
 
474218
Posts: 4510
Joined: Mon Oct 10, 2005 12:27 pm

RE: Qantas Grounds Entire Airline Pt. 2

Sun Oct 30, 2011 1:13 am

Quoting EDICHC (Reply 39):
It's called equality. If you are better than your colleague then you have a better chance of the next promotion, that is how achievement is rewarded

Except every union I was ever in based promotions on "seniority" "not performance"!

Quoting par13del (Reply 47):
hopefully the day will come when all workers will have their needs taken care of by the state so that they can work for free.

I think that has been tried before they called it "Communism"!
 
koruman
Posts: 2179
Joined: Mon Feb 06, 2006 9:08 pm

RE: Qantas Grounds Entire Airline Pt. 2

Sun Oct 30, 2011 1:19 am

Quoting antskip (Reply 45):
The union did not expect Joyce to be so radical, hence calling him "insane" (i.e. he didn't do the expected).

With respect, what you are saying is that he has shown the union that he is even more indifferent to the passengers than they are - the impact on passengers of Qantas' actions is identical to what an unlawful wildcat all-out strike would do.

The paradox here is that I believe that Joyce is perfectly happy to destroy the brand value of Qantas, and has been deliberately talking it down for months.

I'm pretty sure that if the unions accepted a below-inflation settlement he actually wouldn't.

I think that everything we discuss about Qantas on this forum (failure to buy 777s, failure to offer the same range of European destinations as competitors, last-to-market installation of seat-back video on long-haul) has actually been a deliberate move.

A deliberate move to under-invest in Qantas while growing Jetstar, with the actual intent being a private-equity buyout which would enrich senior management. And with Jetstar as the vehicle they intend to manage and profit from long-term, independent of a rump and possibly renationalised Qantas.

So in effect I believe that (God help us) the unions are the closest thing we have to "custodians of Qantas" and that the management's only goal is a swift well-off.

Quoting antskip (Reply 45):
The union did not expect Joyce to be so radical, hence calling him "insane" (i.e. he didn't do the expected).

An alternative hypothesis, of course, is that Joyce is an over-promoted network planner who is unsuited to managing a workforce and is now cracking up under the strain, to the extent that now he is now reduced to operating at the cognitive level of a suicide bomber. The fearsome sight of pilots wearing red ties has convinced him of imminent carnage and so he has concluded that his goals are unattainable by conventional methods, and now he is willing to destroy everything to make his point. You could certainly mount an argument for that being insane behaviour. Moreover, anyone who watched his bizarre and sweaty performance in front of the media on Saturday - when he described his own actions as "unbelievable" - might wonder whether this bizarre scenario is actually what is happening. Moreover, the poor fellow had to be treated for early-onset adenocarcinoma of the prostate several months ago, and it is not on the public record whether this metastasised to other organs such as the brain. The hypothesis may not be as outlandish as it appears.

Alternatively, you could argue that it is reasonable behaviour to close down your profitable airline immediately when the only imminent industrial action consists of pilots wearing red ties. If that is sane behaviour, then Mr Joyce should not be vilified by being accused of being insane.

Whichever way you look at it, the best interests of the passengers seem to be being ignored by almost all parties..

[Edited 2011-10-29 18:29:57]

[Edited 2011-10-29 18:35:24]

[Edited 2011-10-29 18:41:06]

[Edited 2011-10-29 18:57:49]
 
VA787
Posts: 13
Joined: Thu Jun 30, 2011 1:30 am

RE: Qantas Grounds Entire Airline Pt. 2

Sun Oct 30, 2011 1:21 am

Would AJ be able to sack all employees involved, and re-hire non-Australian's in the event that this matter is not resolved? Could this be a plan up his sleeve if all else fails? For some reason this was the first thing I thought of yesterday when the grounding was announced.

VA787
 
NTLDaz
Posts: 475
Joined: Sun Aug 21, 2011 7:56 am

RE: Qantas Grounds Entire Airline Pt. 2

Sun Oct 30, 2011 1:23 am

Quoting koruman (Reply 49):
A deliberate move to under-invest in Qantas while growing Jetstar, with the actual intent being a private-equity buyout which would enrich senior management. And with Jetstar as the vehicle they intend to manage and profit from long-term, independent of a rump and possibly renationalised Qantas.

Fully agree. From my point of view all these moves are designed to provide a way around the Qantas Sales Act and be able to offshore as much of the business as they like. Jetstar and Jetconnect are great examples of this.

If Qantas doesn't want to be an Australian airline perhaps it is time 'to take the Kangaroo off the tails. Yes I know that the platitudes from Qantas are all about strengthening an Australian future but for me I just don't really see it.

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