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tayser
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RE: Qantas Grounds Entire Airline Pt. 2

Sun Oct 30, 2011 1:25 am

How on earth are they still selling fares?

Tiger got b*tchslapped when CASA grounded them, and QF doesnt get the same treatment?
 
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RyanairGuru
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RE: Qantas Grounds Entire Airline Pt. 2

Sun Oct 30, 2011 1:36 am

Quoting tayser (Reply 52):
How on earth are they still selling fares?

I actually booked to fly them in December last night, after hearing about the grounding.

It's to fly in December so I'm guessing everything will be back to normal by then, and I payed peanuts the same flight being $100 more when I checked on Thursday! I guess right now they would like any money they can get since they are going to be paying refunds, hotels etc out of their nose and anything would be welcome.
 
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mariner
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RE: Qantas Grounds Entire Airline Pt. 2

Sun Oct 30, 2011 1:37 am

Quoting esdex (Reply 42):
This is true, but Directors have much higher duties of disclosure than shareholders, employees or union reps.

Newton's 3rd law of physics applies. Anyone can only react to any situation as it happens and union rhetoric was ramped up at and after the AGM.

I am astonished at the number of people trying to downplay what the unions have done - and what they promised to continue to do.

There are other things at work here. I do not believe that "old" Qantas could have survived, for all sorts of reasons, and not the least of those was what Mr. Joyce inherited, the price of fuel and the issue of government policy.

We are in a changed airline business environment.

Some observers have blamed the "Anglo-centricity" of Qantas as part of the problem, but those same observers are dumping on Mr Joyce's turn to Asia.

I don't necessarily agree with all of Mr, Joyce's plans, but he has numbers that available to no one here and I surely don't think he is completely wrong.

If the unions get the Qantas that they want, that airline will be on life-support and (I agree with Mr. Joyce) gone within a foreseeable period of time.

mariner

[Edited 2011-10-29 18:40:32]
 
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BoeingVista
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RE: Qantas Grounds Entire Airline Pt. 2

Sun Oct 30, 2011 1:38 am

Quoting antskip (Reply 45):
Good observation, mariner. The union did not expect Joyce to be so radical, hence calling him "insane" (i.e. he didn't do the expected). But all he is doing is threatening to withdraw capital (a lockout) - the employer's equivalent to employees withdrawing labour (a strike).

Well its disproportionate if not totally insane but you hit on one of the paradoxes; yes, the management has called a strike at Qantas without any prior notice, if the workers did this they would be up in federal court as its illegal.

Having said that it is an insane strategy, I don't see how Qantas win this and they could lose big; they are basically trying to make FWA to force both parties into binding arbitration which takes the resolution of this dispute out of the hand of Qantas management, how is this good? Maybe the arbitration comes down on the sides of the union and then Joyce has trashed the brand for nothing.

Even if they "win" in arbitration they will have lost customers that they will never get back and made Qantas look ridiculous and hacked off a lot of Australia.

Quoting mariner (Reply 36):
Oh, I dunno - we might enjoy it, or I might.

Yeah, could be fun actually  
Quoting mariner (Reply 36):

I'm enjoying this. I recognize the seriousness of the issue, but I didn't expect Mr. Joyce to have such big iron balls.

Nope, me neither but then no one expects the Spanish inquisition!

Oh, and yep, there maybe an ash cloud heading our way next week from a new volcanic eruption in Chile!
 
qf002
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RE: Qantas Grounds Entire Airline Pt. 2

Sun Oct 30, 2011 1:43 am

Quoting VA787 (Reply 50):
Would AJ be able to sack all employees involved, and re-hire non-Australian's in the event that this matter is not resolved?

Nope. Industrial action has laws surrounding it that protect the jobs of employees -- the company cannot simply fire them all and start again unless they continue to strike after being forced back to work by FWA.
 
NAV20
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RE: Qantas Grounds Entire Airline Pt. 2

Sun Oct 30, 2011 2:10 am

Quoting BoeingVista (Reply 55):
Having said that it is an insane strategy, I don't see how Qantas win this and they could lose big; they are basically trying to make FWA to force both parties into binding arbitration which takes the resolution of this dispute out of the hand of Qantas management, how is this good? Maybe the arbitration comes down on the sides of the union and then Joyce has trashed the brand for nothing.

Just looked up the relevant Act - and also caught the tail-end of a radio interview with Joyce. He made it clear that what he wants above all is 'certainty,' as opposed to the 'guerrilla warfare' that has been going on now for many months.

As far as I can work out from the Act, in a situation where 'significant damage to the Australian economy' is likely to occur, the minister can make an order which prohibits further industrial action. From what Joyce said, I gather that if the minister does this, the parties would probably be required to negotiate (probably for the traditional period of 21 days) and then, if no agreement can be reached, both submit to arbitration.

Seems to me that would be a perfectly sound decision on the part of the minister, and further that (on past experience) it's probably the only way the current deadlock can be broken.
 
weebie
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RE: Qantas Grounds Entire Airline Pt. 2

Sun Oct 30, 2011 2:16 am

Joyces salary increase is penuts compared to the wanted increases.

The Unions will lose this as the QF consumer base does not support their actions.

Classic example of how Australia should follow the New Zealand lead of banning Unions. They are a dinosaur concept.
 
Gemuser
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RE: Qantas Grounds Entire Airline Pt. 2

Sun Oct 30, 2011 2:19 am

Quoting qf002 (Reply 56):
Nope. Industrial action has laws surrounding it that protect the jobs of employees -- the company cannot simply fire them all and start again unless they continue to strike after being forced back to work by FWA.

It's not that simple. There are ways and means, no you can't simply fire people for going on strike, (unless they defy FWA) but you can certainly marginalise them and keep outsourcing jobs and not necessarily overseas and take other measures.

Gemuser
 
infinit
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RE: Qantas Grounds Entire Airline Pt. 2

Sun Oct 30, 2011 2:27 am

Quoting SInGAPORE_AIR (Reply 3):
What has been largely lost in all of this, at least from reading the various forums, is that Qantas passengers have been held hostage to an industrial dispute.

Qantas passengers have been turned into pawns in this game of industrial relations brinksmanship. I for one would be furious for my flight, which could feasibly have been despatched (albeit perhaps an hour or two late), to be arbitrarily cancelled in this manner.

I think it shows utter contempt for Qantas passengers and their travel plans let alone the indirect impact on friends/family, co-workers, meetings and events that were to be attended.

This is amplified by the various musings coming out that this was planned way in advance. Doesn’t Qantas have a duty of care to its passengers to perhaps tell them that the flight that they have paid for and thus depend upon is not going to leave ?

Finally, this industrial relations tactic appears to be cynical in the extreme - shutting down Qantas mainline using the unions as an excuse knowing full-well that the Australian Government would intervene and reverse the grounding a few days later.

Passengers will be remembering the disruption that Qantas imposed on them at the whim of the Qantas CEO Alan Joyce and will hopefully explore and be loyal to other and, amongst other things, more reliable travel providers.

My sympathy to those passengers.

Precisely. Like how an Australian friend of mine is stranded here in Singapore because his onward flight to London is cancelled. If I were him, I don't think I'd be inclined to fly QF for a very long time.

The grounding might cost them $20million a day but I think its long-term effects will be far worse on QF's brand in a highly competitive industry. And it is poorly timed with the CEO's payrise and the world conference in Perth.
 
antskip
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RE: Qantas Grounds Entire Airline Pt. 2

Sun Oct 30, 2011 2:32 am

On the ABC's "Inside Business" program at 10am today (EST), Alan Kohler interviewed Alan Joyce. A transcript is available online at http://www.abc.net.au/insidebusiness/ - and also the video of the interview. Well worth reading/watching...
 
koruman
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RE: Qantas Grounds Entire Airline Pt. 2

Sun Oct 30, 2011 2:43 am

Qantas management has just found itself in an awful lot more trouble than it expected.

The pilots have released an email from Jetstar chief Buchanan dated three days earlier, in which he warned of the lockout from 5pm Saturday.

This, if true, means that the airline misled the Australian Stock Exchange and its shareholders about a premeditated action. Not to mention a federal goverment which was hosting the Queen and the Commonwealth Heads of Government.

Alan Joyce and his chums are skating on awfully thin ice now. I sense some upcoming medical leave for the great visionary.

[Edited 2011-10-29 19:55:39]
 
Lufthansa
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RE: Qantas Grounds Entire Airline Pt. 2

Sun Oct 30, 2011 2:48 am

This is actually a move of genius on Joyce's part and straight out of Rupert Murdoch's playbook.
Everybody remember the newspaper printing press workers in the 80s? Same kind of deal.

Gillard right now will just want this to go away. Easiest thing to do? Force the unions to accept the payrise
on offer, but they won't get the big thing they're after. The guaranteed job clause. She isn't gonna want to touch
that one with a ten foot barge pole. Labor is in enough trouble, enforcing that kind of condition is really gonna
be toxic to an already deeply in trouble Labor brand. The PM will just want this to go away as fast as possible with
as little implication of her influence as possible.
 
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mariner
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RE: Qantas Grounds Entire Airline Pt. 2

Sun Oct 30, 2011 2:56 am

Quoting koruman (Reply 62):
The pilots have released an email from Jetstar chief Buchanan dated three days earlier, in which he warned of the lockout from 5pm Saturday.

Mr. Joyce has already said they had made plans for it. See post #15.

mariner
 
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Polot
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RE: Qantas Grounds Entire Airline Pt. 2

Sun Oct 30, 2011 2:58 am

Quoting tayser (Reply 52):
How on earth are they still selling fares?

Tiger got b*tchslapped when CASA grounded them, and QF doesnt get the same treatment?

Tiger was involuntarily shut down for safety concerns, while QF voluntarily grounded itself as a negotiation tacit. It can start flying again tomorrow if Joyce and the BoD decide so. A little different.
 
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BoeingVista
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RE: Qantas Grounds Entire Airline Pt. 2

Sun Oct 30, 2011 3:07 am

Quoting Lufthansa (Reply 63):
Easiest thing to do? Force the unions to accept the payrise
on offer, but they won't get the big thing they're after

She can't do this, as mentioned in #57 all the minister can do is to stop the industrial action and send all sides to binding arbitration, that is all the Government can do it cannot force an agreement on either side we still have the fair go in Australia, its not a dictatorship.

The minister is basically trying to get FWA to do something he has the power to do himself..
 
koruman
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RE: Qantas Grounds Entire Airline Pt. 2

Sun Oct 30, 2011 3:07 am

Quoting koruman (Reply 62):
The pilots have released an email from Jetstar chief Buchanan dated three days earlier, in which he warned of the lockout from 5pm Saturday.

This, if true, means that the airline misled the Australian Stock Exchange and its shareholders about a premeditated action.
Quoting mariner (Reply 64):
Mr. Joyce has already said they had made plans for it. See post #15.

He has also claimed (on Sunday morning) that the decision was made on Saturday morning. Do you understand that Messrs Gillard, Combet and Shorten are in power now?

You rather unfortunately keep writing of him having "iron balls", which is a bit rough on a bloke who may not actually have any after his treatment for prostate cancer. But if he still does have them, Ms Gillard is going to have them for breakfast now.

[Edited 2011-10-29 20:26:15]
 
tayser
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RE: Qantas Grounds Entire Airline Pt. 2

Sun Oct 30, 2011 3:21 am

Quoting polot (Reply 65):
It can start flying again tomorrow if Joyce and the BoD decide so. A little different.

Rubbish.

Stating you have grounded your fleet and still selling tickets is deceptive conduct and the ACCC / Trade Practices act comes in to play.

I just looked on their site - they have now stopped selling QF flight numbers (they were 2 hours ago) and you can now only get Jetstar flights.
 
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mariner
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RE: Qantas Grounds Entire Airline Pt. 2

Sun Oct 30, 2011 3:23 am

Quoting koruman (Reply 67):
He has also claimed (on Sunday morning) that the decision was made on Saturday morning.

Because you make plans for something doesn't mean you put them into effect. If the union attitude had changed after the vote of confidence at the AGM, the plan may not have been used.

Quoting koruman (Reply 67):
You rather unfortunately keep writing of him having "iron balls", which is a bit rough on a bloke who may have any after his treatment for prostate cancer.

It's called metaphor. I don't know anyone who actually has iron balls.

But I am enchanted that you think I am the one being rough on Mr. Joyce.  

mariner
 
NAV20
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RE: Qantas Grounds Entire Airline Pt. 2

Sun Oct 30, 2011 3:45 am

FWA hearing has re-convened and is in session.

I'd say that a ban on further 'industrial action' by both sides, and a requirement to go to arbitration if agreement cannot be achieved, is the likely outcome. No idea how long it will take to happen, though.

"On Sunday afternoon the Queensland Government joined the Commonwealth, the NSW and Victorian government's application to Fair Work Australia to terminate all industrial action by Qantas and its employees."

http://news.theage.com.au/breaking-n...to-trade-blows-20111030-1mq4y.html
 
weebie
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RE: Qantas Grounds Entire Airline Pt. 2

Sun Oct 30, 2011 3:59 am

The union demands for job guarantees are unacceptable in 2011. No ones job in this day and age is ever safe and the unions are only proving to Australia how absolutely dumb they are. 3 days time will prove what an absolute genius Joyce is. As the shareholders have already proved with his pay increase, clearly worth the money for Qantas. This will prove a great day for industrial relations.
 
Dehowie
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RE: Qantas Grounds Entire Airline Pt. 2

Sun Oct 30, 2011 4:01 am

Quoting weebie (Reply 58):
Joyces salary increase is penuts compared to the wanted increases.

The Unions will lose this as the QF consumer base does not support their actions.

Classic example of how Australia should follow the New Zealand lead of banning Unions. They are a dinosaur concept.


I'm not sure watching the same coverage as thevrest of us but most people seem quite supportive of people interested in protecting their jobs rather than shipping them off overseas.
As for unions with a lack of them we now have crew operating hours beyond yes beyond what a coal miner would of in the 1880s.
Unions are needed more now than ever before with ridiculous work conditions terrible working hours and ridiculous CEOs like Joyce thinking they are a law unto themselves.
Rather than joining the charge into poorer conditions ate work practices maybe just maybe setting a new standard and service that others should aspire to provide might be a way to o.
Hell a full service airline providing service may be a new concept rather than slashing services and service..mmm that would be Air New Zealand..
Guess they have a brilliant CEO who believes in his staff not an idiot who declares war on them...
 
risingsunfitnes
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RE: Qantas Grounds Entire Airline Pt. 2

Sun Oct 30, 2011 4:08 am

Mariner,

As usual, your slightly cooler head brings things into perspective, including comedy ty  

To the all our other esteemed posters, the point is not whether AJ got 2 mil, or as some ealier posters suggested 5mil. The point is, Qantas at the present time is bleeding money internationally. The only way they can fix this, is to change their business model, which AJ is trying to do. Does any sane person like these decisions? probably not, but if Qantas wants to stay as premium Australian carrier, that must compete with a growing number of carriers to Aus, the dynamics must change.

Union member/ supporter, or not. This was a smart (but costly) choice AJ made... It forces the deadlock to a close... good for all parties IMHO.
 
weebie
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RE: Qantas Grounds Entire Airline Pt. 2

Sun Oct 30, 2011 4:14 am

The key issue is that the market is changing. In my opinion the average Australia consumer doesn't care about local jobs, all they care about are affordable prices. Australians don't buy Australian made products any more actually more frankly they don't care. Qantas are adapting to the market the best they can. New products such as airlines in China are essential for the survival of any Asian airline because that is where the action is.

The pay increase is not the issue, The unions will get their 3.5% in seconds if that's all they are asking for. The key issue is job security and in modern day commerce the guarantee of job security in any clause is sheer lunacy and anyone with any background or education in business or law will understand this. Government workers who traditionally have the most protection in Australia out of anyone don't have the same protection as what these ridiculous unions are asking for.

Joyce is at Qantas to look after shareholders not Australia. It's clear that the majority of shareholders support his actions.

Cheers.
 
qf002
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RE: Qantas Grounds Entire Airline Pt. 2

Sun Oct 30, 2011 4:16 am

Quoting mariner (Reply 64):
Mr. Joyce has already said they had made plans for it. See post #15.
Quoting mariner (Reply 69):
Because you make plans for something doesn't mean you put them into effect. If the union attitude had changed after the vote of confidence at the AGM, the plan may not have been used.

   I plan for a situation whereby I crash my car by having insurance. Doesn't mean that I plan on crashing my car.

Quoting Dehowie (Reply 72):
Unions are needed more now than ever before with ridiculous work conditions terrible working hours and ridiculous CEOs like Joyce thinking they are a law unto themselves.

Oh that's right -- living in one of the most economically and socially prosperous countries in the world, earning some of the highest salaries in the world, crew staying at 4 and 5 star hotels when overseas, with incredible benefits (eg ID90 tickets) and being able to stand up and make themselves heard is such a poor working standard. Wow the ignorance on this board is cringeworthy (and this isn't a personal attack at you, your post just happened to be the easiest one to launch from) -- try taking a look at some of the conditions that exist overseas, even in our neighbouring nations like Malaysia, Singapore and NZ where unionism is banned, wages are lower and conditions are much poorer. QF workers have it extremely good. Even look at VA, where significantly more maintenance is offshore, wages are lower and job security is equally low. I'm not saying that employees shouldn't be fighting for more, and I support that (not in this way though). But statements like that one, and that others have made across both threads are just so out of touch with the situation...
 
NTLDaz
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RE: Qantas Grounds Entire Airline Pt. 2

Sun Oct 30, 2011 4:17 am

Quoting risingsunfitnes (Reply 73):

Union member/ supporter, or not. This was a smart (but costly) choice AJ made... It forces the deadlock to a close... good for all parties IMHO.

At the risk of a calamitous public relations disaster for the airline he purports to protect. The damage from this decision could be exponential. Only time will tell but I think it'll hurt for a long time. There are 10's of thousands of people affected by this who know 10's of thousands more and I can't see Qantas getting too much kudos from the travelling public.
 
AJ
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RE: Qantas Grounds Entire Airline Pt. 2

Sun Oct 30, 2011 4:23 am

Quoting weebie (Reply 74):
The key issue is job security and in modern day commerce the guarantee of job security in any clause is sheer lunacy and anyone with any background or education in business or law will understand this.

Could you please clarify what is actually being requested in terms of 'job security'?
 
deconz
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RE: Qantas Grounds Entire Airline Pt. 2

Sun Oct 30, 2011 4:27 am

Quoting NTLDaz (Reply 76):
Quoting risingsunfitnes (Reply 73):
Union member/ supporter, or not. This was a smart (but costly) choice AJ made... It forces the deadlock to a close... good for all parties IMHO.


At the risk of a calamitous public relations disaster for the airline he purports to protect. The damage from this decision could be exponential. Only time will tell but I think it'll hurt for a long time. There are 10's of thousands of people affected by this who know 10's of thousands more and I can't see Qantas getting too much kudos from the travelling public.


to say nothing of the damage already caused in the past several months by union endorsed actions that deliberately have disrupted the travel plans of thousands of QF pax!!!
 
weebie
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RE: Qantas Grounds Entire Airline Pt. 2

Sun Oct 30, 2011 4:31 am

The licensed engineers and pilots association want guarantees that jobs will stay in Australia and are using this push heavily in their promotion of their cause.

Firstly any organisation can't have Unions telling them how to run their business that is just extreme nonsense. Any organisation that takes orders from Unions will eventually go down, and go down hard.

Secondly this request clearly does not coincide with the future strategy that Qantas has decided to take. Qantas have taken this action because the market conditions have changed so significantly that Australian's no longer care about local jobs or local work practices over prices IMO.

The unions are worried that this future Red Q operation could set a precedent for future Qantas operations with all work being done off shore.This in my opinion is their main worry. The pilots on the other hand are just being greedy but are rightfully concerned that their industry may go the way of American pilots. The new Jetstar training program is as they see is the start of this.
 
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mariner
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RE: Qantas Grounds Entire Airline Pt. 2

Sun Oct 30, 2011 4:35 am

I've been a Labor voter all my life, I am, as I've said, a strong union supporter.

But i am really so sad to see the way the unions are playing this. This piece, from The Age, for example, which claims that Qantas and the TWU were one clause away from a deal:

http://www.theage.com.au/business/de...rolls-the-dice-20111030-1mq52.html

"Qantas was extremely close to signing a breakthrough agreement with the Transport Workers Union at the end of last week. Qantas chief executive Alan Joyce and TWU boss Tony Sheldon were personally negotiating the final elements of what looked like a deal, and sources say big hurdles on pay and conditions had been cleared, in principle at least.

Only one big outstanding issue remained: a union claim that non-Qantas contractors be included in the enterprise bargain with Qantas TWU employees, including baggage handlers, ground staff, catering and freight employees. Joyce told Sheldon that the demand could not be legally met under the terms of the Fair Work Act - and he maintained that the rest of Qantas's offer would be taken off the table if the TWU did not sign off.

The TWU did not accept. And subsequent signals from the TWU that it was prepared to fight a lengthy industrial campaign was a trigger for Saturday's dramatic expansion of the Qantas pay dispute."


That they couldn't agree on that clause, which might have been illegal, is one thing, That the TWU was ready to fight a lengthy industrial battle is something else.

Now, some unionists unions seem to be hanging their hat on the idea that the grounding was premeditated. Well - duh. Two can play that game.

Quoting risingsunfitnes (Reply 73):
As usual, your slightly cooler head brings things into perspective, including comedy ty  

Always leave 'em laughing.  

mariner

[Edited 2011-10-29 21:45:39]
 
AJ
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RE: Qantas Grounds Entire Airline Pt. 2

Sun Oct 30, 2011 4:42 am

Quoting weebie (Reply 79):
The pilots on the other hand are just being greedy but are rightfully concerned that their industry may go the way of American pilots.

I don't understand your 'greedy' statement, which demand is greedy?
 
Quokka
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RE: Qantas Grounds Entire Airline Pt. 2

Sun Oct 30, 2011 4:45 am

With all this talk of "smart" I can only ask what was wrong with simply picking up the phone? If Joyce wanted FWA to intervene or to take it to arbitration, he could have picked up the phone at any stage without grounding the airline. Responding to (straight from the horse's mouth) rhetoric did not require such dramatic action. No, it was more important to show that he has 'iron balls' even if that means throwing passengers travel plans into disarray. Well, we have seen your balls and I'm impressed, Mr Joyce. Now let's see if you can walk on two legs.

At present Australian workers generally do have 'good' wages and conditions compared to others and there are laws governing safety and other matters. But to believe that will always be the case if unions disappear from the scene is naive. The opposition has indicated that it wishes to repeal some laws and amend provisions of others to make industry more competitive. Competitive pressures to reduce costs will always be present.

The same pressures that require 'reform' today would exist tomorrow. Today it may be necessary to increase hours, tomorrow a few more jobs go off-shore, the day after something else needs to be given. That should be blindingly obvious, otherwise why would the board's strategy be to set up in areas where there is less scope for collective bargaining - precisely those areas where unions are banned and wages and conditions are worse?

At the end of the day, Joyce is employed to run the company for the benefit of the shareholders. He is not responsible or accountable to the employees or the travelling public. The company may depend on both, but they are not there for the benefit of either. They are there to run a business as a means of maximising a return on investment. It wouldn't make any difference if QF made shoes, sold perfume or ran a bank.

[Edited 2011-10-29 21:49:02]
 
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Qatara340
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RE: Qantas Grounds Entire Airline Pt. 2

Sun Oct 30, 2011 4:46 am

According to Flightradar24.com, There is a Qantas Flight on the air!

QF 46 from Christchurch to Sydney

REG: ZK-ZQG

When are they going back up?
 
AJ
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RE: Qantas Grounds Entire Airline Pt. 2

Sun Oct 30, 2011 4:48 am

Quoting QatarA340 (Reply 83):
QF 46 from Christchurch to Sydney

Operated by Jetconnect - not a mainline flight.
 
deconz
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RE: Qantas Grounds Entire Airline Pt. 2

Sun Oct 30, 2011 4:50 am

Quoting QatarA340 (Reply 83):
According to Flightradar24.com, There is a Qantas Flight on the air!

QF 46 from Christchurch to Sydney

REG: ZK-ZQG

When are they going back up?

operated by Jet Connect (a NZ based subsidiary of the QF group and not part of the grounding)
 
qf002
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RE: Qantas Grounds Entire Airline Pt. 2

Sun Oct 30, 2011 4:52 am

Quoting Quokka (Reply 82):
With all this talk of "smart" I can only ask what was wrong with simply picking up the phone? If Joyce wanted FWA to intervene or to take it to arbitration, he could have picked up the phone at any stage without grounding the airline.

He couldn't just 'ask' FWA to intervene. They can only intervene at the request of the federal government, when they feel that there is serious economic risk. NSW and Qld obviously see economic damage, and have been calling for the federal government to intervene, but this is a bold move that AJ/QF had to make to force the government's hand.
 
esdex
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RE: Qantas Grounds Entire Airline Pt. 2

Sun Oct 30, 2011 4:53 am

Quoting mariner (Reply 54):
Newton's 3rd law of physics applies. Anyone can only react to any situation as it happens and union rhetoric was ramped up at and after the AGM.

I am astonished at the number of people trying to downplay what the unions have done - and what they promised to continue to do.

Newton's third law of physics has nothing to do with it. It's stuff like this that gets corporate regulators interested and even among a small group of people it can be very hard to keep a story straight:
http://www.smh.com.au/travel/travel-...-for-some-time-20111030-1mq4z.html

Why expose yourselves as Directors of a corporation to regulatory problems when trying to tackle industrial problems? You just play into the hands of your opponents and complicate your lives. If the Board want to ground Qantas, that's fine, but you don't do it within 24 hours of an AGM in which you made no direct reference to it. It's really poor corporate governance and it erodes the trust of stakeholders that you need a lot of trust in if you're going to have a serious fight with your employees.
 
NTLDaz
Posts: 475
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RE: Qantas Grounds Entire Airline Pt. 2

Sun Oct 30, 2011 5:04 am

Quoting deconz (Reply 78):
to say nothing of the damage already caused in the past several months by union endorsed actions that deliberately have disrupted the travel plans of thousands of QF pax!!!

I don't think the limited ( and yes it has been fairly limited ) actions so far have had near the effect on passengers as this guerilla action has. Unions need to give 72 hours notice of industrial action. Joyce gave virtually no notice at all.
 
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mariner
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Joined: Fri Nov 23, 2001 7:29 am

RE: Qantas Grounds Entire Airline Pt. 2

Sun Oct 30, 2011 5:07 am

Quoting esdex (Reply 87):
Newton's third law of physics has nothing to do with it. It's stuff like this that gets corporate regulators interested and even among a small group of people it can be very hard to keep a story straight:

Every action has an equal and opposite reaction.

If a union pushes too hard, it should expect some pushback. Similarly, of course, if a management pushes too hard, it should expect some reaction. But the management is in the catbird seat - they are acting on behalf of the owners.

As to the email, once again, there is nothing untoward in the company making a contingency plan or plans.

It can as easily be argued that the company would have been reckless not to have contingency plans.

mariner
 
spacecadet
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Joined: Thu Sep 20, 2001 3:36 am

RE: Qantas Grounds Entire Airline Pt. 2

Sun Oct 30, 2011 5:12 am

Quoting weebie (Reply 58):
Classic example of how Australia should follow the New Zealand lead of banning Unions. They are a dinosaur concept.

Organized labor will be a dinosaur concept the day all CEO's collectively decide that fair treatment of their workers is actually an integral part of the company's business plan.

So far, the adoption rate of that strategy is approximately 0%.
 
Quokka
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RE: Qantas Grounds Entire Airline Pt. 2

Sun Oct 30, 2011 5:35 am

Quoting qf002 (Reply 86):
He couldn't just 'ask' FWA to intervene.

The FWA may issue determinations on
(a) its own initiative, or
(b) on application by any of the following
i) a bargaining representative for the agreement;
(ii) the Minister;
(iia) if the industrial action is being engaged in, or is threatened, impending or probable, in a State that is a referring State as defined in section 30B or 30L—the Minister of the State who has responsibility for workplace relations matters in the State;
(iib) if the industrial action is being engaged in, or is threatened, impending or probable, in a Territory—the Minister of the Territory who has responsibility for workplace relations matters in the Territory;
(iii) a person prescribed by the regulations.

Mr Joyce would be covered by (b)(i) so the FWA need not sit on its hands waiting for instruction from the Minister and Mr J was not prevented by legislation from picking up the phone.
 
NTLDaz
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RE: Qantas Grounds Entire Airline Pt. 2

Sun Oct 30, 2011 6:23 am

Quoting spacecadet (Reply 90):
Organized labor will be a dinosaur concept the day all CEO's collectively decide that fair treatment of their workers is actually an integral part of the company's business plan.

So far, the adoption rate of that strategy is approximately 0%.

Too right. Whilst we accept that the CEO ( Joyce in this case ) represents the owners and their need to maximise profits we should probably also accept that the means of production ( ie the workers ) need to be organised to represent their collective self.
 
qf002
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RE: Qantas Grounds Entire Airline Pt. 2

Sun Oct 30, 2011 6:32 am

Quoting Quokka (Reply 91):
Mr Joyce would be covered by (b)(i) so the FWA need not sit on its hands waiting for instruction from the Minister and Mr J was not prevented by legislation from picking up the phone.

Fair enough, I was mistaken. Still, what's not to say he did ask and they knocked him back? Hence the need to take a drastic move to get things going.
 
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mariner
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RE: Qantas Grounds Entire Airline Pt. 2

Sun Oct 30, 2011 6:33 am

Quoting Quokka (Reply 91):
Mr Joyce would be covered by (b)(i) so the FWA need not sit on its hands waiting for instruction from the Minister and Mr J was not prevented by legislation from picking up the phone.

I think that if Mr. Joyce had done so, he would immediately have put himself (and Qantas) on the back foot.

Many have not believed what he has said, many are downplaying the consequences of the union action so far and many are second guessing him.

He cannot play this from a position of weakness.

mariner
 
NTLDaz
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RE: Qantas Grounds Entire Airline Pt. 2

Sun Oct 30, 2011 6:36 am

Quoting NTLDaz (Reply 92):
Still, what's not to say he did ask and they knocked him back? Hence the need to take a drastic move to get things going.

Respectfully I would suggest this comment is a bit of a stretch. If he'd been to FWA I think it probably would have come out in the reporting by now.
 
risingsunfitnes
Posts: 32
Joined: Sat Sep 03, 2011 5:59 am

RE: Qantas Grounds Entire Airline Pt. 2

Sun Oct 30, 2011 7:22 am

Can I ask why there is so much mention of the fact he acted only the day after the AGM ? My point is, you have the meeting.. TWU etc, thinks it's going to be a watershed vote to them... they lose by, i might add about 97%. They get the s$%ts and decide they're going to strike anyway, so AJ called them at their game.

It doesn't matter whether, as Mariner says, you're a labor supporter, unionist, liberal, greenie or alien....

There's no winners here, especially the travelling public, but what else was he going to do? roll over and say thanks ?
 
qf002
Posts: 3694
Joined: Tue Jul 05, 2011 11:14 am

RE: Qantas Grounds Entire Airline Pt. 2

Sun Oct 30, 2011 7:40 am

Quoting NTLDaz (Reply 95):
Quoting NTLDaz (Reply 92):
Still, what's not to say he did ask and they knocked him back? Hence the need to take a drastic move to get things going.

Respectfully I would suggest this comment is a bit of a stretch. If he'd been to FWA I think it probably would have come out in the reporting by now.

Quoting the wrong person there   I doubt that FWA are allowed to make any comment on this situation, being a third party government organisation who are neutral to both sides. And why would QF say that they've been begging for help? That puts them in an instantly weakened position. Nobody else could have known, so how do you suggest it would have come out?
 
aloges
Posts: 14807
Joined: Tue Jan 17, 2006 3:38 am

RE: Qantas Grounds Entire Airline Pt. 2

Sun Oct 30, 2011 8:08 am

Quoting risingsunfitnes (Reply 96):
There's no winners here, especially the travelling public, but what else was he going to do? roll over and say thanks ?

I'm not sure how the arbitration process works in Australia, but since one does appear to exist, that's where the parties should have met. "Union busting" through taking the passengers hostage is such an extremely damaging and irresponsible move that if I were a shareholder, I'd be looking for ways to sue QF's management for deliberately ruining the value of my investment.
 
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mariner
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RE: Qantas Grounds Entire Airline Pt. 2

Sun Oct 30, 2011 8:11 am

An explanation has been given for the email the pilots union claim is proof of premeditation:

http://www.theage.com.au/travel/trav...ian-air-travel-20111030-1mq0o.html

"5.13pm: Jetstar says an email on Saturday that told staff the airline's parent company Qantas was grounding its fleet was dated last Wednesday only because a mistake was made copying a standard Jetstar header from an earlier staff email. The date was not updated, Jetstar said. "The error was noticed shortly afterwards and corrected," Jetstar said."

mariner
 
esdex
Posts: 27
Joined: Mon Jan 24, 2011 6:06 am

RE: Qantas Grounds Entire Airline Pt. 2

Sun Oct 30, 2011 8:39 am

Quoting mariner (Reply 99):
An explanation has been given for the email the pilots union claim is proof of premeditation:

http://www.theage.com.au/travel/trav...ian-air-travel-20111030-1mq0o.html

"5.13pm: Jetstar says an email on Saturday that told staff the airline's parent company Qantas was grounding its fleet was dated last Wednesday only because a mistake was made copying a standard Jetstar header from an earlier staff email. The date was not updated, Jetstar said. "The error was noticed shortly afterwards and corrected," Jetstar said."

LOL, who can't smell bs in that explanation. Who cuts headers from email to email??

Lyle Strambi's evidence sounds pretty interesting. As I said in an earlier post, someone has to do the numbers on the effect of this kind of thing to ensure the company is fulfilling corporate duties to it shareholders. There's no way it could have been done in a day.
 
NTLDaz
Posts: 475
Joined: Sun Aug 21, 2011 7:56 am

RE: Qantas Grounds Entire Airline Pt. 2

Sun Oct 30, 2011 8:47 am

Quoting qf002 (Reply 97):
Nobody else could have known, so how do you suggest it would have come out?

Maybe the fact that FWA are holding enquiries now ( attended by journalists ). Witnesses are cross examined and the record is public. I would suggest this is how it would come out.

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