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BoeingVista
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RE: Qantas Grounds Entire Airline Pt. 2

Sun Oct 30, 2011 3:58 pm

Quoting par13del (Reply 150):
Will be interesting to see if the workers give up over the next 21 days, or whether this is just a cooling off period for the rolling strikes to commence again, because other than mandating a cooiling off period. what has the FWA changed in the negotiating positions of both sides but to re-inforce management superiority in these situations?

Nope, if no agreement is reached in 21 days another 21 days period for negotiations can be requested, if no agreement after that a tribunal will direct a binding settlement. No further industrial action is permitted over this dispute by either side.
 
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BoeingVista
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RE: Qantas Grounds Entire Airline Pt. 2

Sun Oct 30, 2011 4:07 pm

Quoting par13del (Reply 150):
and the thoughts that this is exactly what Qantas management wanted by shutting down the airline has been achieved in spite of who actually created the greater harm to the travelling public.

Idon't actually think so, Qantas may have wanted this result but they didn't want to have their fingerprints on it, by all accounts they wanted the Government to bypass the court and halt the industrial action without having to go to the bother of grounding the airline, clearly this did not happen and they had to do their own dirty work.

Submitting themselves to binding arbitration also removes the terms of resolution of the situation from their control, I fundamentally question this as a sensible strategy.

http://www.news.com.au/national/qant...nored/story-e6frfkvr-1226180983230
 
NAV20
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RE: Qantas Grounds Entire Airline Pt. 2

Sun Oct 30, 2011 4:32 pm

Quoting BoeingVista (Reply 154):
Submitting themselves to binding arbitration also removes the terms of resolution of the situation from their control, I fundamentally question this as a sensible strategy.

As someone who has twice been involved in cases that 'went to arbitration,' BoeingVista, I have cordially to disagree.

It was an oddity that, in both cases, the 'opposition' were good friends of mine. In both cases we could have achieved a settlement in five minutes flat, except that our respective boards disagreed. Also, in both cases, we had a 'celebratory' lunch after the ruling that we should go to arbitration, and jointly/correctly predicted the likely outcome. A fifty/fifty split.......

Basically, in almost ALL disputes, all ANY arbitrator does is add the conflicting offers together and divide by two.

I confidently expect the Qantas/unions row to be settled by the arbitrator in just about exactly the same way........  
 
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par13del
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RE: Qantas Grounds Entire Airline Pt. 2

Sun Oct 30, 2011 4:35 pm

Quoting BoeingVista (Reply 154):
Submitting themselves to binding arbitration also removes the terms of resolution of the situation from their control, I fundamentally question this as a sensible strategy.

Well so far they are one for one with the termination versus suspension, so the odds are in their favour that the arbitrator will also do the same, I agree its no sure thing.
 
Braniff747SP
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RE: Qantas Grounds Entire Airline Pt. 2

Sun Oct 30, 2011 4:47 pm

 
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BoeingVista
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RE: Qantas Grounds Entire Airline Pt. 2

Sun Oct 30, 2011 4:50 pm

Quoting par13del (Reply 156):
Well so far they are one for one with the termination versus suspension, so the odds are in their favour that the arbitrator will also do the same, I agree its no sure thing.

No, not at all, no one can predict the outcome of the arbitration.

Many more 'victories' like this and there won't be much left of Qantas to save, the whole thing stinks of MBA management techniques, it looks good on paper or when wargamed but in real life there are so many casualties and unintended consequences that the victory if thats what we are calling it is meaningless.
 
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mariner
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RE: Qantas Grounds Entire Airline Pt. 2

Sun Oct 30, 2011 5:48 pm

Quoting StarAC17 (Reply 129):
Hope this does not count as debating the user, but I doubt me if any of FWA, ASIC or ACCC uses Newton's Third Law, or even the second law of thermodynamics (heat won't flow from a cooler to a hotter, you can try it if you like but you far better notta) as a basis for their judgements.

I'm sure they don't. I sometimes wonder if they should.  
Quoting BoeingVista (Reply 158):
Many more 'victories' like this and there won't be much left of Qantas to save, the whole thing stinks of MBA management techniques, it looks good on paper or when wargamed but in real life there are so many casualties and unintended consequences that the victory if thats what we are calling it is meaningless.

All true, but it is the Qantas position that it wouldn't have survived continued industrial action anyway.

And this one is a remarkable victory. It weakens the union position and considerably strengthens Mr. Joyce's hand - who knows what he'll do next? I think the unions were crazy to have put Mr. Joyce in the position where he felt he had to do this, as I said, over-muscled apes who completely under-estimated the CEO.

I dips me lid (raise my hat) to Mr. Joyce.

mariner

[Edited 2011-10-30 11:26:15]
 
Flaps
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RE: Qantas Grounds Entire Airline Pt. 2

Sun Oct 30, 2011 6:01 pm

Quoting risingsunfitnes (Reply 110):
I'm sorry, flame me if you must... but this is given.... The unions pointed a barrel and AJ pointed one back... that simple. Unions took industrial action, which they're entitlelled to do, and AJ did the same, which he's entitilled to do..Whose right ? who cares, really ? TWU Sheldon can prance around, Jooolia can say she ain't going to get involved, AJ will now play hard (what's he got to lose? his job? apparently he's been more than compensated ) and for the love of god, an amazing airline will survive....

You wont get any flame from me. I think you're perspective is dead on.
 
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mariner
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RE: Qantas Grounds Entire Airline Pt. 2

Sun Oct 30, 2011 6:49 pm

And it isn't getting any prettier - for the Government.

It seems that Mr. Joyce tried to contact the PM, but she didn't return his call.

http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/new...nored/story-e6freuy9-1226180960683

"QANTAS CEO Alan Joyce would have abandoned his decision to ground the airline had Prime Minister Julia Gillard returned his call and promised to intervene directly in the union standoff."

And the Transport Minister, Mr. Albanese, ripped Mr. Joyce a new one for not keeping him informed - whereas Qantas was providing daily briefings on the situation before the grounding:

"It has also been revealed that Mr Joyce went to the Marrickville electorate office of Transport Minister Anthony Albanese on Friday, October 21, to warn of the crisis looming. He opened the books to Mr Albanese to demonstrate the urgency of the company's financial position if the unions continued their industrial campaign.

Mr Joyce's office was then in almost twice-daily contact with senior ministers' offices providing updates until the annual general meeting last Friday."


I love that Mr. Albanese was informed three hours before the announcement of the grounding and told Mr. Joyce that the move was "aggressive." Duh.

And if this one is true, then it's really ugly:

http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/new...-duck/story-e6frezz0-1226180829078

"Despite repeated warnings that the current industrial action against the national flagship was unsustainable, three cabinet ministers yesterday feigned shock and horror when CEO Alan Joyce grounded the airline.

It is hard to conceive how a government could claim it had no inkling of what was to come when its senior ministers were intimately involved in trying to get Qantas to "just look after" the TWU, whose leader Tony Sheldon is likely to become the ALP president in December."


Now, it's the Telegraph and it's Murdoch - who has no love for the PM or the government - but as an old Labor voter it causes my heart to sink.

mariner
 
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par13del
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RE: Qantas Grounds Entire Airline Pt. 2

Sun Oct 30, 2011 7:18 pm

Quoting mariner (Reply 161):
He opened the books to Mr Albanese to demonstrate the urgency of the company's financial position if the unions continued their industrial campaign.

I have not followed the intimate details of the stand off, but if it is as all other labour disputes, those books were probably never opened to the unions. A private company doing that and letting it be known leaves no doubt where they expect the government to land.
Interesting way of "forcing" the governments hand.
 
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mariner
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RE: Qantas Grounds Entire Airline Pt. 2

Sun Oct 30, 2011 7:39 pm

Quoting par13del (Reply 162):
I have not followed the intimate details of the stand off, but if it is as all other labour disputes, those books were probably never opened to the unions. A private company doing that and letting it be known leaves no doubt where they expect the government to land.

Not sure I follow. He opened the books to the Minister, not the unions. Whether he assumed that the Minister might communicate some or all of that information is unknown to me.

And sure - I don't suppose Mr. Joyce left any doubt as to where he expected the government, or at least the Minister, to stand.

mariner
 
blueflyer
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RE: Qantas Grounds Entire Airline Pt. 2

Sun Oct 30, 2011 8:03 pm

If the case goes to arbitration, does the arbitrator have to take each party's position at face value, or does he get to question them, especially in light of senator Xenophon's allegations that Qantas' is providing goods and services to Jetstar without compensation?

Also, when does Qantas expect to resume operations?

[Edited 2011-10-30 13:05:31]
 
Braniff747SP
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RE: Qantas Grounds Entire Airline Pt. 2

Sun Oct 30, 2011 9:23 pm

Quoting blueflyer (Reply 164):
Also, when does Qantas expect to resume operations?

Apparently, as soon as tomorrow morning.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-pacific-15513219
 
koruman
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RE: Qantas Grounds Entire Airline Pt. 2

Sun Oct 30, 2011 9:25 pm

Quoting mariner (Reply 159):
And this one is a remarkable victory

A remarkable victory???????

How do you spin this as a victory when:

1. The employer refuses to negotiate in good faith, and then locks out its staff and its customers.
2. The issue is sent to an independent arbiter.
3. The arbiter terminates the industrial action by all parties, but explicitly states that it is solely the actions of the employer which are economically destructive.
4. The employer has 21 days to reach a settlement or will have one imposed upon all parties by binding arbitration.
5. The employer has destroyed the morale of its own staff for years to come.
6. The employer has let down its customers without notice, and sent them a clear message that to buy tickets from it is to risk not travelling. All around the world passengers have seen that only Qantas takes such extreme steps against its workforce, and that unique risks are associated with buying tickets from Qantas.
7. The employer has antagonised the government which has previously protected it.

The findings of Fair Work Australia were essentially that Qantas management is less capable of running the airline than even the unions would be, and does not have the best interests of either the company or the Australian market at heart.

Two of the unions in question have adopted ill-advised tactics and appear to be badly led. But Fair Work Australia has made it clear that their actions are far less destructive than those of Qantas management. A more damning indictment of appalling corporate governance would be difficult to imagine!

[Edited 2011-10-30 14:30:14]
 
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mariner
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RE: Qantas Grounds Entire Airline Pt. 2

Sun Oct 30, 2011 9:30 pm

Quoting koruman (Reply 166):
How do you spin this as a victory when:

Mr. Joyce got what he wanted, and as I predicted he would.  

For weeks, he has been telling us what the industrial action was doing to Qantas and no one listened, except, sadly for me, Mr. Abbott.

They're listening now.

mariner
 
SInGAPORE_AIR
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RE: Qantas Grounds Entire Airline Pt. 2

Sun Oct 30, 2011 9:31 pm

Quoting koruman (Reply 166):
6. The employer has let down its customers without notice

The biggest travesty and casualty in all this in my eyes.
 
AusA380
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RE: Qantas Grounds Entire Airline Pt. 2

Sun Oct 30, 2011 9:32 pm

Quoting mariner (Reply 161):
And it isn't getting any prettier - for the Government.

It seems that Mr. Joyce tried to contact the PM, but she didn't return his call.

This has been rejected by the PM on ABC AM Radio this morning - The PM indicated that Qantas will formally clarify later this morning. Made be a case of the Leader of the Opposition stirring the pot.
 
koruman
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RE: Qantas Grounds Entire Airline Pt. 2

Sun Oct 30, 2011 9:34 pm

Quoting mariner (Reply 167):
Mr. Joyce got what he wanted, and as I predicted he would

No he hasn't - he may think he has, but 21 days from now he will be in binding arbitration.

But much more importantly, he has triggered two catastrophic events for Qantas.

Firstly, he has lost the protection of the Australian government.

Secondly, he has put industrial relations back at the top of the national political agenda, which exposes Tony Abbott to scrutiny of his views on industrial relations. And in doing so, he has almost certainly delivered Labor a crushing electoral victory where previously they faced near-certain defeat. And that will probably mean that they will return to power with a parliamentary majority, and that Qantas will face the darkest times imaginable.
 
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mariner
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RE: Qantas Grounds Entire Airline Pt. 2

Sun Oct 30, 2011 9:40 pm

Quoting AusA380 (Reply 169):
This has been rejected by the PM on ABC AM Radio this morning - The PM indicated that Qantas will formally clarify later this morning. Made be a case of the Leader of the Opposition stirring the pot.

As a Labor voter, I hope she's right.

Quoting koruman (Reply 170):
No he hasn't - he may think he has, but 21 days from now he will be in binding arbitration.

He knew that.

Quoting koruman (Reply 170):
Firstly, he has lost the protection of the Australian government.

Whereas - I think - he has strengthened his hand. He certainly has much of the business community with him.

Quoting koruman (Reply 170):
Secondly, he has put industrial relations back at the top of the national political agenda

Which is probably where it needs to be:

http://www.theage.com.au/opinion/pol...ust-doesnt-fly-20111030-1mqdl.html

"Qantas is fighting for its life and had no option but to take strong action.

THE Qantas action to bring its disputes with unions to a head is justified. The federal government's fair work system, combined with rising union militancy, has led to this very serious impasse."


It is astonishing - to me - that you can ignore or downplay what the industrial action was doing to Qantas. The loss figure for that industrial action, before the grounding, is now put at over $100 million.

It is even more astonishing to me that you can downplay the consequences of a union win here.

mariner
 
something
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RE: Qantas Grounds Entire Airline Pt. 2

Sun Oct 30, 2011 9:49 pm

I am sorry should this have been mentioned before but I've just come across this excellent and eye-opening post on another aviation-themed online discussion forum:

Quote:
For those who haven't seen it, Senator Xenophon's speech of 23rd Aug is reproduced below.

Senator XENOPHON (South Australia) (19:37): I rise to speak tonight on an issue that is close to the hearts of many Australians, and that is the future of our national carrier, Qantas. At 90, Qantas is the world's oldest continuously running airline. It is an iconic Australian company. Its story is woven into the story of Australia and Australians have long taken pride in the service and safety standards provided by our national carrier. Who didn't feel a little proud when Dustin Hoffman uttered the immortal line in Rain Man, 'Qantas never crashed'?

While it is true that Qantas never crashes, the sad reality is that Qantas is being deliberately trashed by management in the pursuit of short-term profits and at the expense of its workers and passengers. For a long time, Qantas management has been pushing the line that Qantas international is losing money and that Jetstar is profitable. Tonight, it is imperative to expose those claims for the misinformation they are. The reality is that Qantas has long been used to subsidise Jetstar in order to make Jetstar look profitable and Qantas look like a burden. In a moment, I will provide detailed allegations of cost-shifting that I have sourced from within the Qantas Group, and when you know the facts you quickly see a pattern. When there is a cost to be paid, Qantas pays it, and when there is a profit to be made, Jetstar makes it.

But first we need to ask ourselves: why? Why would management want Qantas to look unprofitable? Why would they want to hide the cost of a competing brand within their group, namely Jetstar, in amongst the costs faced by Qantas?

To understand that, you need to go back to the days when Qantas was being privatised. When Qantas was privatised the Qantas Sale Act 1992 imposed a number of conditions, which in turn created a number of problems for any management group that wanted to flog off parts of the business. Basically, Qantas has to maintain its principal place of operations here in Australia, but that does not stop management selling any subsidiaries, which brings us to Jetstar.

Qantas has systematically built up the low-cost carrier at the expense of the parent company. I have been provided with a significant number of examples where costs which should have been billed back to Jetstar have in fact been paid for by Qantas. These are practices that I believe Qantas and Jetstar management need to explain. For example, when Jetstar took over the Cairns-Darwin-Singapore route, replacing Qantas flights, a deal was struck that required Qantas to provide Jetstar with $6 million a year in revenue. Why? Why would one part of the business give up a profitable route like that and then be asked to pay for the privilege? Then there are other subsidies when it comes to freight. On every sector Jetstar operates an A330, Qantas pays $6,200 to $6,400 for freight space regardless of actual uplift. When you do the calculations, this turns out to be a small fortune. Based on 82 departures a week, that is nearly half-a-million dollars a week or $25½ million a year.

Then there are the arrangements within the airport gates. In Melbourne, for example, my information from inside the Qantas group is that Jetstar does not pay for any gates, but instead Qantas domestic is charged for the gates. My question for Qantas management is simple: are these arrangements replicated right around Australia and why is Qantas paying Jetstar's bills? Why does Qantas lease five check-in counters at Sydney Terminal 2, only to let Jetstar use one for free? It has been reported to me that there are other areas where Jetstar's costs magically become Qantas's costs. For example, Jetstar does not have a treasury department and has only one person in government affairs. I am told Qantas's legal department also does free work for Jetstar.

Then there is the area of disruption handling where flights are cancelled and people need to be rebooked. Here, insiders tell me, Qantas handles all rebookings and the traffic is all one way. It is extremely rare for a Qantas passenger to be rebooked on a Jetstar flight, but Jetstar passengers are regularly rebooked onto Qantas flights. I am informed that Jetstar never pays Qantas for the cost of those rebooked passengers and yet Jetstar gets to keep the revenue from the original bookings. This, I am told, is worth millions of dollars every year. So Jetstar gets the profit while Qantas bears the costs of carriage. It has also been reported to me that when Qantas provides an aircraft to Jetstar to cover an unserviceable plane, Jetstar does not pay for the use of this plane.

Yet another example relates to the Qantas Club. Jetstar passengers can and do use the Qantas Club but Jetstar does not pay for the cost of any of this. So is Qantas really losing money? Or is it profitable but simply losing money on paper because it is carrying so many costs incurred by Jetstar? We have been told by Qantas management that the changes that will effectively gut Qantas are necessary because Qantas international is losing money but, given the inside information I have just detailed, I would argue those claims need to be reassessed.

Indeed, given these extensive allegations of hidden costs, it would be foolish to take management's word that Qantas international is losing money. So why would Qantas want to make it look like Qantas international is losing money? Remember the failed 2007 private equity bid by the Allco Finance Group. It was rejected by shareholders, and thank goodness it was, for I am told that what we are seeing now is effectively a strategy of private equity sell-off by stealth.

Here is how it works. You have to keep Qantas flying to avoid breaching the Qantas Sale Act but that does not stop you from moving assets out of Qantas and putting them into an airline that you own but that is not controlled by the Qantas Sale Act. Then you work the figures to make it appear as though the international arm of Qantas is losing money. You use this to justify the slashing of jobs, maintenance standards and employment of foreign crews and, ultimately, the creation of an entirely new airlines to be based in Asia and which will not be called Qantas. The end result? Technically Qantas would still exist but it would end up a shell of its former self and the Qantas Group would end up with all these subsidiaries it can base overseas using poorly paid foreign crews with engineering and safety standards that do not match Australian standards. In time, if the Qantas Group wants to make a buck, they can flog these subsidiaries off for a tidy profit. Qantas management could pay the National Boys Choir and the Australian Girls Choir to run to the desert and sing about still calling Australia home, but people would not buy it. It is not just about feeling good about our national carrier—in times of trouble our national carrier plays a key strategic role. In an international emergency, in a time of war, a national carrier is required to freight resources and people around the country and around the world. Qantas also operates Qantas Defence Services, which conducts work for the RAAF. If Qantas is allowed to wither, who will meet these strategic needs?

I pay tribute to the 35,000 employees of the Qantas Group. At the forefront of the fight against the strategy of Qantas management have been the Qantas pilots, to whom millions of Australians have literally entrusted their lives. The Australian and International Pilots Association sees Qantas management strategy as a race to the bottom when it comes to service and safety. On 8 November last year, QF32 experienced a serious malfunction with the explosion of an engine on an A380 aircraft. In the wrong hands, that plane could have crashed. But it did not, in large part because the Qantas flight crew had been trained to exemplary world-class standards and knew how to cope with such a terrifying reality. I am deeply concerned that what is being pursued may well cause training levels to fall and that as a result safety standards in the Qantas Group may fall as well. AIPA pilots and the licensed aircraft engineers are not fighting for themselves; they are fighting for the Australian public. That is why I am deeply concerned about any action Qantas management may be considering taking against pilots who speak out in the public interest.

A lot of claims have been made about the financial state of Qantas international but given the information I have presented tonight, which has come from within the Qantas Group, I believe these claims by management are crying out for further serious forensic investigation. Qantas should not be allowed to face death by a thousand cuts—job cuts, route cuts, quality cuts, engineering cuts, wage cuts. None of this is acceptable and it must all be resisted for the sake of the pilots, the crews, the passengers and ultimately the future of our national carrier.

Source: http://www.pprune.org/rumours-news/467611-qantas-grounding-5.html (Post 98)
 
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mariner
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RE: Qantas Grounds Entire Airline Pt. 2

Sun Oct 30, 2011 10:05 pm

I think this is seriously off-topic, and all due respect to the Senator, but his book-keeping is a bit of a worry; To take just one example:

Quoting something (Reply 172):
On every sector Jetstar operates an A330, Qantas pays $6,200 to $6,400 for freight space regardless of actual uplift. When you do the calculations, this turns out to be a small fortune. Based on 82 departures a week, that is nearly half-a-million dollars a week or $25

Even assuming those numbers are true, they don't take into consideration any revenue from cargo carried.

mariner
 
TheCommodore
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RE: Qantas Grounds Entire Airline Pt. 2

Sun Oct 30, 2011 10:06 pm

Quoting mariner (Reply 161):
It seems that Mr. Joyce tried to contact the PM, but she didn't return his call.

Too busy with CHOGM according to the reports I read. Although I'm sure she could have popped out to make a call, especially one as important as this.

Quoting koruman (Reply 170):
No he hasn't - he may think he has, but 21 days from now he will be in binding arbitration.

This is exactly what he wanted to happen, and it has.

Quoting koruman (Reply 170):
Firstly, he has lost the protection of the Australian government.

LOL, he never had it to start with !

This mob couldn't run a chook raffle, and Mr Joyce knows it. I doubt very much whether he looking to this Gov for much support.

Quoting koruman (Reply 170):
Secondly, he has put industrial relations back at the top of the national political agenda, which exposes Tony Abbott to scrutiny of his views on industrial relations.

Where they need to be. This is (in many people eyes) an unresolved matter that needs dealt with.
 
aerokiwi
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RE: Qantas Grounds Entire Airline Pt. 2

Sun Oct 30, 2011 10:29 pm

Quoting qf002 (Reply 75):
Wow the ignorance on this board is cringeworthy

Indeed. Like, for example, the following statement...

Quoting qf002 (Reply 75):
and NZ where unionism is banned,

Unionism isn't banned. Where do you get this stuff? Compulsory unionism, sure.

Quoting spacecadet (Reply 90):
So far, the adoption rate of that strategy is approximately 0%.

Speak for yourself. I've worked in both unionised and non-unionised workplaces in New Zealand and around the world (admittedly, anglo-saxon countries) and I've found good managers treat staff well regardless of the presence of unions. Bad managers in both situations generally treat staff poorly, but those managers usually don't last long in either environment.

I also like how there hasn't been a clear elucidation of the union demands on here. Are we all just reacting to our assumptions and entrenched positions, fed on by the media coverage?

[Edited 2011-10-30 16:24:16]
 
The Coachman
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RE: Qantas Grounds Entire Airline Pt. 2

Sun Oct 30, 2011 10:41 pm

Quoting koruman (Reply 166):
6. The employer has let down its customers without notice, and sent them a clear message that to buy tickets from it is to risk not travelling.

As opposed to the unions deciding to hold the airline and its passengers at ransom for up to 12 months if necessary with rolling and continual stoppages with no certainty of when they would cease?

[Edited 2011-10-30 15:52:54]
 
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mariner
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RE: Qantas Grounds Entire Airline Pt. 2

Sun Oct 30, 2011 11:03 pm

Quoting AusA380 (Reply 167):
This has been rejected by the PM on ABC AM Radio this morning
Quoting mariner (Reply 169):
As a Labor voter, I hope she's right.

It seems Murdoch's Daily Telegraph did tell fibs - surprise! Both the PM and Mr. Joyce have denied that he tried to contact her. That's a relief.

At the same time, Mr, Joyce has added some more information about what he told the government and when:

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/n...ticle.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=10762893

"I had no expectation of talking to the prime minister," he told ABC Radio, adding he had discussions with three senior ministers

Mr Joyce said the airline had warned the government 10 days ago the dispute was approaching a critical point.

"We'd been making it very clear to both sides of politics that this could not continue," he said.

"We told them that we could not survive indefinitely the way this was going."


mariner
 
I380North
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RE: Qantas Grounds Entire Airline Pt. 2

Sun Oct 30, 2011 11:23 pm

Mr Mariner: sir, are you a professional spin doctor for F9 and QF? You never seize to amaze me how much (inside) information you have about these two airlines and their leadership.
 
SInGAPORE_AIR
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RE: Qantas Grounds Entire Airline Pt. 2

Sun Oct 30, 2011 11:26 pm

Quoting The Coachman (Reply 174):
As opposed to the unions deciding to hold the airline and its passengers at ransom for up to 12 months if necessary with rolling and continual stoppages with no certainty of when they would cease?

My understanding is that protected industrial action requires 72 hours of notice and Qantas has been able to rebook and notify passengers in relatively good time (as acknowledged by the media and certain industry commentators).

If that is being "held to ransom" I would wonder how "to hell with your meetings, weddings, funerals, hospital visits, holidays, cruises et al. we're going to shut down as a precautionary measure" would be described !
 
jacobin777
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RE: Qantas Grounds Entire Airline Pt. 2

Sun Oct 30, 2011 11:29 pm

Quoting koruman (Reply 164):
6. The employer has let down its customers without notice, and sent them a clear message that to buy tickets from it is to risk not travelling. All around the world passengers have seen that only Qantas takes such extreme steps against
Quoting SInGAPORE_AIR (Reply 166):
Quoting koruman (Reply 166):
6. The employer has let down its customers without notice

The biggest travesty and casualty in all this in my eyes.

If this was in response to Joyce then what about the unions striking and causing a lot of trouble for customers?
 
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par13del
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Joined: Sun Dec 18, 2005 9:14 pm

RE: Qantas Grounds Entire Airline Pt. 2

Sun Oct 30, 2011 11:30 pm

Quoting mariner (Reply 171):
I think this is seriously off-topic,

A question, off topic in terms of this particular thread or beyond the current scope of this discussion? Among the things the unions are fighting for is jobs being moved off shore and they are doing so by rolling strikes.

Quoting mariner (Reply 171):
Even assuming those numbers are true, they don't take into consideration any revenue from cargo carried.

I took his numbers to be what Qantas is paying to JetStar in an effort to make Jetstar profitable and Qantas a money looser, whatever revenue actually gained would be reported to Jetstar, assuming he is correct.

Quoting something (Reply 170):
Yet another example relates to the Qantas Club. Jetstar passengers can and do use the Qantas Club but Jetstar does not pay for the cost of any of this. So is Qantas really losing money? Or is it profitable but simply losing money on paper because it is carrying so many costs incurred by Jetstar?

An interesting read.
 
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mariner
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RE: Qantas Grounds Entire Airline Pt. 2

Sun Oct 30, 2011 11:43 pm

Quoting I380North (Reply 177):
Mr Mariner: sir, are you a professional spin doctor for F9 and QF? You never seize to amaze me how much (inside) information you have about these two airlines and their leadership.

Certainly not professional - no one pays me a penny.  

I agree I've been called a spin doctor for Frontier, many times, but (I think) it all depends on your point of view. I've never been called a spin doctor for Qantas before. My few posts about Qantas, up until now, have been somewhat critical of some - not all - of Mr. Joyce's plans.

But the moment he announced the grounding, he sparked my interest - I remember the moment very clearly. I thought it was a case of a deeply under-estimated CEO (David?) up against the union heavies (Goliath?).

mariner
 
81819
Posts: 2008
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RE: Qantas Grounds Entire Airline Pt. 2

Sun Oct 30, 2011 11:47 pm

Quoting par13del (Reply 180):
Quoting something (Reply 170):
Yet another example relates to the Qantas Club. Jetstar passengers can and do use the Qantas Club but Jetstar does not pay for the cost of any of this. So is Qantas really losing money? Or is it profitable but simply losing money on paper because it is carrying so many costs incurred by Jetstar?

An interesting read.



If I book a Jetstar flight on the QANTAS website, I will normally pay more for that flight than I would if I had booked on the Jetstar site.

Example Jetstar flight Brisbane - Newcastle 6.35am 02/11/11.
Jetstar price: $69.00
QANTAS price: $96.00
 
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mariner
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RE: Qantas Grounds Entire Airline Pt. 2

Sun Oct 30, 2011 11:55 pm

Quoting par13del (Reply 180):
I took his numbers to be what Qantas is paying to JetStar in an effort to make Jetstar profitable and Qantas a money looser, whatever revenue actually gained would be reported to Jetstar, assuming he is correct.

I don't think the intention is to make Qantas a money loser - but, of course, I could be wrong. It would just seem to me to be very odd.

It is not uncommon - it is very usual - for a parent company to fund a subsidiary. The parent becomes, in effect, the venture capitalist.

Until and unless I could look at the Qantas books - which isn't going to happen - I don't know how they are balancing the charges out but what the Senator did seemed to me to use naked, and somewhat one-sided, numbers without any balance - costs but without any return.

mariner
 
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par13del
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RE: Qantas Grounds Entire Airline Pt. 2

Sun Oct 30, 2011 11:57 pm

Quoting travelhound (Reply 182):
If I book a Jetstar flight on the QANTAS website, I will normally pay more for that flight than I would if I had booked on the Jetstar site.

If I take the general point of the Senator's statement, the Qantas Group is using Jetstar to get around the 1992 regulation, I wonder if anyone has actually attempted to verify any of his claims, certainly the Group will deny the intent.

Yes Qantas may charge more to book the same flight, if the premise is true the additional cost may be a fee that Qantas has to pay to Jetstar, if the premise is true.
 
koruman
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RE: Qantas Grounds Entire Airline Pt. 2

Sun Oct 30, 2011 11:59 pm

Quoting koruman (Reply 168):
But much more importantly, he has triggered two catastrophic events for Qantas.

Firstly, he has lost the protection of the Australian government.
Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 172):
LOL, he never had it to start with !

Are you sure about that?

Qantas has been allowed to enter into anti-competitive alliances with BA and SAA, and the government excluded SQ from the Pacific route. They also, at present, are allowed to use cheap Asian labour for Jetstar on routes from Australia to the USA and other countries.

Any or all of those things can be addressed by an antagonistic government, and now may well be.

Quoting koruman (Reply 168):
Secondly, he has put industrial relations back at the top of the national political agenda, which exposes Tony Abbott to scrutiny of his views on industrial relations

This is a high-risk strategy for Qantas, and the Labor party is probably delighted by it. The one achilles heel of the Leader of the Opposition is that most of the Australian electorate views him as an anti-workers' rights bully. This won Labor a landslide victory in the last but one election, against an incumbent government during an economic boom.

Labor would like nothing better than for industrial relations to stay atop the agenda, because the reforms various posters on this forum would like are entirely unpalatable to over 70% of Australian society.

Qantas is advised by the law company which advised Patrick Stevedores during the Waterfront dispute 13 years ago. But they had the patronage of a Liberal government, and actively wanted to lose their entire workforce. That is not an option for Qantas. So while they have got the issue addressed, the cost in terms of passengers, workforce relations and government relations is enormous.
 
TravellerPlus
Posts: 139
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RE: Qantas Grounds Entire Airline Pt. 2

Mon Oct 31, 2011 12:01 am

Time to lighten up people! From today's Sydney Morning Herald.

"My flight yesterday got cancelled and managed to get on a Virgin flight this morning but I told my boss the earliest flight I could get was Wednesday. My boss said he would still pay me out of sick leave. I was rostered on or work on Tuesday and now I'm going to be able to go to the [Melbourne] Cup. If I see Alan Joyce I will buy him a beer."
 
alangirvan
Posts: 522
Joined: Wed Nov 08, 2000 2:13 pm

RE: Qantas Grounds Entire Airline Pt. 2

Mon Oct 31, 2011 12:03 am

Quoting par13del (Reply 180):
Quoting mariner (Reply 171):
Even assuming those numbers are true, they don't take into consideration any revenue from cargo carried.

I took his numbers to be what Qantas is paying to JetStar in an effort to make Jetstar profitable and Qantas a money looser, whatever revenue actually gained would be reported to Jetstar, assuming he is correct.

Jetstar does not sell its cargo capacity. Qantas does know how to sell cargo. So, it buys the space at wholesale price and takes on the risk of selling the space. Qantas did codeshares on flights operated by Australian Airlines, and sold the cargo space in a similar way.

Quoting par13del (Reply 180):
Quoting something (Reply 170):
Yet another example relates to the Qantas Club. Jetstar passengers can and do use the Qantas Club but Jetstar does not pay for the cost of any of this. So is Qantas really losing money? Or is it profitable but simply losing money on paper because it is carrying so many costs incurred by Jetstar?

How do you quantify money lost when somebody uses a lounge? People pay an annual subscription, so they are not getting into the lounge for nothing. The consumables are there whether anyone uses them. Qantas would not expect to be paid when a member of a OneWorld alliance partner airline club uses their facilities.

If a person is flying in Jetstar Star Class, and that person is not a member of Qantas Club, then Qantas would be giving away a visit, and not receiving revenue directly, but I think that would be rare.
 
deconz
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RE: Qantas Grounds Entire Airline Pt. 2

Mon Oct 31, 2011 12:05 am

Quoting alangirvan (Reply 187):
How do you quantify money lost when somebody uses a lounge? People pay an annual subscription, so they are not getting into the lounge for nothing. The consumables are there whether anyone uses them. Qantas would not expect to be paid when a member of a OneWorld alliance partner airline club uses their facilities.

I think you'll find they bill the other OneWorld carrier for each and every lounge visit at an agreed price.
 
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BoeingVista
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RE: Qantas Grounds Entire Airline Pt. 2

Mon Oct 31, 2011 12:11 am

Quoting mariner (Reply 175):

It seems Murdoch's Daily Telegraph did tell fibs - surprise! Both the PM and Mr. Joyce have denied that he tried to contact her. That's a relief.

Yes Mariner, pure spin and lies. I'm surprised that you swallowed it as it was obviously untrue and had been denied many times by the PM and ministers, but not surprised that the Telegraph printed it so all of its readers could dutifully troupe into work and proclaim that it was the Prime ministers fault. No one will remember the retraction.

Its not the PMs fault nor is it a victory for Qantas, its a PR and IR disaster.

But I fully expect the spin to continue.
 
TruemanQLD
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RE: Qantas Grounds Entire Airline Pt. 2

Mon Oct 31, 2011 12:17 am

Quoting koruman (Reply 168):
Secondly, he has put industrial relations back at the top of the national political agenda, which exposes Tony Abbott to scrutiny of his views on industrial relations. And in doing so, he has almost certainly delivered Labor a crushing electoral victory where previously they faced near-certain defeat. And that will probably mean that they will return to power with a parliamentary majority, and that Qantas will face the darkest times imaginable.

Oh please, there is no way this recent QF drama, which will be forgotten by most Australians by the next election, will save the government. Also, I would be very surprised to see QF 'face the darkest times imaginable'... QF is the nations flag carrier, and while you may hate them, plenty of Australians do and do support the recent action by the QF Board, and at the end of the day, the politicians are going to fly the best airline domestically, and that is QF.
 
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mariner
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RE: Qantas Grounds Entire Airline Pt. 2

Mon Oct 31, 2011 12:24 am

Quoting BoeingVista (Reply 189):
Yes Mariner, pure spin and lies. I'm surprised that you swallowed it as it was obviously untrue and had been denied many times by the PM and ministers, but not surprised that the Telegraph printed it

The first I heard of the PM was this morning, and it was only denied by the PM this morning, so if it was denied "many times" I haven't seen it. But then - I haven't read everything.

Quoting BoeingVista (Reply 189):
But I fully expect the spin to continue.

What "spin"?

I offer my opinion, based on what I see and what I think and what I deduce. I also allow that I can be wrong. But no one has to agree with me and I never expect that anyone will.

For example, I believe - with every fibre of my being - that at least part of the union under-estimation of Mr, Joyce was based on his sexuality - but I don't expect anyone else to agree with that.

Or is that "spin"?

mariner
 
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BoeingVista
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RE: Qantas Grounds Entire Airline Pt. 2

Mon Oct 31, 2011 12:29 am

Quoting koruman (Reply 168):
he has almost certainly delivered Labor a crushing electoral victory where previously they faced near-certain defeat.

Easy tiger   I'm not sure that this will save Labor, however it does move the conversation on from Labors internal bickering and allow the government to get on with a bit of governing. It also show that Gillards FWA Act does work and Qantas's actions make the working public a bit uneasy which is unlikely to be good for Abbott with his IR track record as he will now have to fully explain what he would have done in this situation. Any time that Abbott has to explain his position is not good for Abbott.
 
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BoeingVista
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RE: Qantas Grounds Entire Airline Pt. 2

Mon Oct 31, 2011 12:35 am

Quoting mariner (Reply 191):

For example, I believe - with every fibre of my being - that at least part of the union under-estimation of Mr, Joyce was based on his sexuality - but I don't expect anyone else to agree with that.

You keep going back to this, I read a lot and believe that I'm quite observant but it had never occurred to me that Joyce may be gay and even after you mentioned it it makes no difference to any of this. He may or may not be gay, SO WHAT? who cares? I don't.
 
deconz
Posts: 154
Joined: Sat Nov 13, 2010 11:14 pm

RE: Qantas Grounds Entire Airline Pt. 2

Mon Oct 31, 2011 12:42 am

Quoting BoeingVista (Reply 193):
Quoting mariner (Reply 191):

For example, I believe - with every fibre of my being - that at least part of the union under-estimation of Mr, Joyce was based on his sexuality - but I don't expect anyone else to agree with that.

You keep going back to this, I read a lot and believe that I'm quite observant but it had never occurred to me that Joyce may be gay and even after you mentioned it it makes no difference to any of this. He may or may not be gay, SO WHAT? who cares? I don't.

I agree it makes absolutely no difference. However, I've seen (and experienced) folk who don't understand gay culture have this concept that it somehow makes us weaker. In that context I do entirely agree with mariner!!!
 
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mariner
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RE: Qantas Grounds Entire Airline Pt. 2

Mon Oct 31, 2011 12:46 am

Quoting BoeingVista (Reply 193):
You keep going back to this, I read a lot and believe that I'm quite observant but it had never occurred to me that Joyce may be gay and even after you mentioned it it makes no difference to any of this. He may or may not be gay, SO WHAT? who cares? I don't.

You may not care - I'm not asking you to - but I care, because I have had experience of how some Australian heavyweights with regard to it. Walk a mile in my shoes.

It is no secret - it's in Wiki - about Mr. Joyce, and I'm simply saying what I believe, based on my business experience, what has been said to me.

But I don't see how that is "spin" - although it is certainly an opinion.

mariner
 
tayser
Posts: 436
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RE: Qantas Grounds Entire Airline Pt. 2

Mon Oct 31, 2011 12:54 am

Quoting TruemanQLD (Reply 190):
Oh please, there is no way this recent QF drama, which will be forgotten by most Australians by the next election, will save the government.

It wont save them, but you've missed Koruman's point: the ALP will always have a greater majority of people on their side if they are the "Good guys" when it comes to IR.

Notice how mad monk abbott is all quiet? and notice how a previous Liberal IR minister is bagging his own party for not being tougher? The Liberals are -sh*tscared- of IR cos they know the ALP (and unions) will just pin Workchoices on them again.
 
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BoeingVista
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RE: Qantas Grounds Entire Airline Pt. 2

Mon Oct 31, 2011 12:58 am

Quoting mariner (Reply 195):

You may not care - I'm not asking you to - but I care, because I have had experience of how some Australian heavyweights with regard to it. Walk a mile in my shoes.

So you think that this entire episode was triggered because union heavyweights underestimate gay people?

If you do you are patronising a lot of people that you have never met, if not its irrelevant to this discussion.

Having seen Joyces performances there are a whole bunch of reasons to dislike him without going anywhere near his sexuality.
 
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mariner
Posts: 19473
Joined: Fri Nov 23, 2001 7:29 am

RE: Qantas Grounds Entire Airline Pt. 2

Mon Oct 31, 2011 1:02 am

Quoting BoeingVista (Reply 197):
So you think that this entire episode was triggered because union heavyweights underestimate gay people?

No.

Please re-read what I wrote - I believe that part of the inion under-estimation of Mr. Joyce, at least by some people, was because of that.

Quoting BoeingVista (Reply 197):
Having seen Joyces performances there are a whole bunch of reasons to dislike him without going anywhere near his sexuality.

That may be. I'm throwing that into the mix as one of them, for some people. You disagree? Fine - my experience is clearly different from yours, but it is my experience.

mariner
 
koruman
Posts: 2179
Joined: Mon Feb 06, 2006 9:08 pm

RE: Qantas Grounds Entire Airline Pt. 2

Mon Oct 31, 2011 1:09 am

Quoting koruman (Reply 168):
Secondly, he has put industrial relations back at the top of the national political agenda, which exposes Tony Abbott to scrutiny of his views on industrial relations. And in doing so, he has almost certainly delivered Labor a crushing electoral victory where previously they faced near-certain defeat. And that will probably mean that they will return to power with a parliamentary majority, and that Qantas will face the darkest times imaginable.
Quoting TruemanQLD (Reply 190):
Oh please, there is no way this recent QF drama, which will be forgotten by most Australians by the next election, will save the government.

Also, I would be very surprised to see QF 'face the darkest times imaginable'... QF is the nations flag carrier, and while you may hate them, plenty of Australians do and do support the recent action by the QF Board

Firstly, people will not be allowed by Labor to forget this, because fear of Coalition Industrial Relations policy is precisely the key to retaining government for them. Tony Abbott will get massacred on this not only in the leadership debates, but especially in negative campaigning. If the election is fought on industrial relations, Tony Abbott suddenly becomes a massive liability.

Secondly, you are confusing Australians' affection for Qantas with "support for the QF board". I have no idea what inspired you to write that. I've met quite a few people who are annoyed with the unions today - although not one with the pilots' union. But every single person today whom I've discussed this with at my workplace today has had sentiments towards the Qantas board somewhere between disdain, contempt, anger and outright hatred.

Many Australians are afraid today. Afraid that when their union enters collective bargaining in good faith - albeit with the usual unrealistic positions which employers and unions always start with in negotiations - their employer now has the ability to lock them out and force an outcome. And for Labor, that sudden outbreak of industrial fear is the Elixir of Life.
 
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BoeingVista
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RE: Qantas Grounds Entire Airline Pt. 2

Mon Oct 31, 2011 1:10 am

Quoting mariner (Reply 198):
No.

Please re-read what I wrote - I believe that part of the inion under-estimation of Mr. Joyce, at least by some people, was because of that.

Sorry but I find this laughable.

Quoting mariner (Reply 198):
That may be. I'm throwing that into the mix as one of them, for some people. You disagree? Fine - my experience is clearly different from yours, but it is my experience.

In my experience when it comes to dealing with money people are more objective and pragmatic than this.
 
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mariner
Posts: 19473
Joined: Fri Nov 23, 2001 7:29 am

RE: Qantas Grounds Entire Airline Pt. 2

Mon Oct 31, 2011 1:12 am

Quoting BoeingVista (Reply 200):
Sorry but I find this laughable.

Okay. Walk a mile in my shoes.

mariner

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