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packersfan
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RE: Qantas Grounds Entire Airline Pt. 3

Wed Nov 02, 2011 4:43 am

Quoting BoeingVista (Reply 99):
Masquerading as licenced engineers? Nope, everybody knows that neither of them have ever done an honest days work in their lives...

What......no welcome to the forum?
 
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BoeingVista
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RE: Qantas Grounds Entire Airline Pt. 3

Wed Nov 02, 2011 4:45 am

Quoting packersfan (Reply 100):

What......no welcome to the forum?

You registered just to make that crack   Welcome!
 
packersfan
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RE: Qantas Grounds Entire Airline Pt. 3

Wed Nov 02, 2011 4:54 am

Thanks for that. No there is quite alot more to my registration. I have been following this now rather lengthy 3 part tome and some of the views that have been expressed are alarmingly one eyed. I think your side of the argument would carry much more weight, if occasionally you acknowledged there had been transgressions performed on the unions side. Sadly they can do no wrong and management are pretty much the Devils right hand men. Sorry it is back to front.
 
JMM99
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RE: Qantas Grounds Entire Airline Pt. 3

Wed Nov 02, 2011 5:00 am

Quoting EK413 (Reply 89):
Quoting JMM99 (Reply 85):
Joyce had no choice. He had to stop the insane unions.

He had a choice to come to the table with a decent agreement as opposed to bringing an entire airline to a stand still and effecting the travelling plans of their so called 'loyal' passengers....
As for insane union I am 100% behind the unions and what they stand for in the workforce... Keeping management honest!

QF should have offered the unions the same pay as JQ or DJ, but instead they offered them 3% & still they weren't happy they want tenure.

Apart from university emlpyees, no one gets tenure, especially in a volatile industry like avaiation.

At least we'll get rid of these dodgy union leaders. Already the pilots union is backing down.
 
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mariner
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RE: Qantas Grounds Entire Airline Pt. 3

Wed Nov 02, 2011 5:11 am

Quoting BoeingVista (Reply 101):
I think your side of the argument would carry much more weight, if occasionally you acknowledged there had been transgressions performed on the unions side.

As I've said several times, it has me baffled. I don't understand the need by so many to downplay or whitewash the union industrial action.

If the union cause is just, then grow a pair, I say, and face the facts. These industrial actions were designed to hurt Qantas - and they did - and, by definition, the passengers.

I went on (union called) strike twice when I lived in the US and I'm darn proud of what we did and what we achieved.

I'm a strong union man and proud of that too, but the great achievements of unionism were always based on rock solid truth.

mariner
 
JMM99
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RE: Qantas Grounds Entire Airline Pt. 3

Wed Nov 02, 2011 5:15 am

DJ just anounced business clas fares on the triangle. Good timing !!!

BNE/SYD from $579

SYD/MEL from $559

BNE/MEL from $885

All one way.

LET THE WAR BEGIN !!!

talk of QF doing double ff points.

DJ could respond with free bottles of scotch (or similar) like infamous Southwest deal !!!

[Edited 2011-11-01 22:16:39]
 
thegeek
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RE: Qantas Grounds Entire Airline Pt. 3

Wed Nov 02, 2011 5:16 am

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 59):

Your comments caused me to look up the current Act, and the (repealed) Work Choices Act, and it seems you are indeed correct. Work Choices wasn't promoted this way at all though, I'm not the only one who was under that impression. I'm not a fan of words like "reasonable" in an Act - it's too easy for a lawyer to make money out of something like that.

When I've been expected to work 7 day weeks I was decidedly underwhelmed, and didn't stay in that job. No amount of money is worth that to me.
 
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shamrock604
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RE: Qantas Grounds Entire Airline Pt. 3

Wed Nov 02, 2011 5:22 am

Quoting EK413 (Reply 96):
You must of forgotten the passenger's seated, buckled and ready for push back... & all of a sudden over the pa an announcement Sorry ladies and gentleman your not going anywhere today course Mr Joyce has taken upon him self to ground us and prevent us from flying you to your final destination...
The Spirit of Ireland...

As opposed to any time where the staff have been the ones to prevent the flying? I really dont think the unions can occupy the moral high ground on that one....

And was the "spirit of Ireland" remark really necessary?
 
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EK413
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RE: Qantas Grounds Entire Airline Pt. 3

Wed Nov 02, 2011 5:45 am

Quoting fiscal (Reply 98):
To be fair, the board endorsed the action BEFORE it was taken, so it was not Alan Joyce acting unilaterally.

I agree it was the decision of the board but Mr Joyce is the one which has to press the launch button and explain why this was the only solution...

Quoting JMM99 (Reply 103):
QF should have offered the unions the same pay as JQ or DJ, but instead they offered them 3% & still they weren't happy they want tenure.

Apart from university emlpyees, no one gets tenure, especially in a volatile industry like avaiation.

At least we'll get rid of these dodgy union leaders. Already the pilots union is backing down.

Try 1% and no back pay after nearly 9 months of negotiating... That's what QF offered staff which signed off on a new agreement a few months ago... Try and convenience me that is a fair and reasonable offer brought to the table...

Quoting shamrock604 (Reply 107):
And was the "spirit of Ireland" remark really necessary?

No offence but yeah...

EK413
 
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shamrock604
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RE: Qantas Grounds Entire Airline Pt. 3

Wed Nov 02, 2011 5:58 am

Quoting EK413 (Reply 108):
No offence but yeah...

For what reason exactly? Because Joyce is representative of Ireland? Because the "spirit of Ireland" is to inconvenience your travel plans?

Please do elaborate. I'm all ears as to why these comments seem to be somehow acceptable and why people justify them by telling me that "it would be worse if he was a pom or a kiwi"

Quoting EK413 (Reply 108):
Try 1% and no back pay after nearly 9 months of negotiating... That's what QF offered staff which signed off on a new agreement a few months ago... Try and convenience me that is a fair and reasonable offer brought to the table...

Try being on a pay freeze for the last four years! You guys really dont have it all that bad, and I think you perhaps need a timely reminder of that! I know things are good economically in Oz, but it's not so anywhere else, and QF's costs are undeniably out of sync with it's competition out of Oz, which is why it's position is threatened. Surely you realise that it needs to contain costs and salaries, which lets face it, are none too shabby, in order to at least maintain it's current position and not dramatically worsen.

I've personally taken it on the chin for the last four years. That's an effective pay cut of 15% considering inflation. But I know my employer needs it to ensure it's survival.
 
thegeek
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RE: Qantas Grounds Entire Airline Pt. 3

Wed Nov 02, 2011 6:01 am

Quoting shamrock604 (Reply 109):
Try being on a pay freeze for the last four years! You guys really dont have it all that bad, and I think you perhaps need a timely reminder of that! I know things are good economically in Oz, but it's not so anywhere else, and QF's costs are undeniably out of sync with it's competition out of Oz, which is why it's position is threatened. Surely you realise that it needs to contain costs and salaries, which lets face it, are none too shabby, in order to at least maintain it's current position and not dramatically worsen.

I've personally taken it on the chin for the last four years. That's an effective pay cut of 15% considering inflation. But I know my employer needs it to ensure it's survival.

Well said.

If they don't like it, maybe they'd rather work for JQ or DJ.
 
TruemanQLD
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RE: Qantas Grounds Entire Airline Pt. 3

Wed Nov 02, 2011 6:18 am

Quoting BoeingVista (Reply 99):
Masquerading as licenced engineers? Nope, everybody knows that neither of them have ever done an honest days work in their lives...

Not going to speak for Tony Abbot as I dont know all that much about him, but I will argue in AJ's defence. Just because AJ doesnt work as a pilot or engineer, doesnt mean he 'hasnt done an honest days work in their lives'. AJ is an incredibly talented man, which is why he was head hunted by Ansett, then QF and then EI tried again. Also, to say CEO's have a less stressful job than a pilot or engineer is ludicrous. Could you imagine the responsibility and stress that would come with running Australia's biggest airline and one of the world's oldest and most respected (please, do not reply with your own personal opinion of how he has gone, that is irrelevant really)? He doesnt just sit at his desk, thinking of ways to destroy QF (as some think). Whether you agree of disagree with the QF grounding, to say that AJ hasnt done an honest days work is just plain wrong.


Quoting JMM99 (Reply 105):
DJ just anounced business clas fares on the triangle. Good timing !!!

BNE/SYD from $579

SYD/MEL from $559

BNE/MEL from $885

All one way.

LET THE WAR BEGIN !!!

talk of QF doing double ff points.

DJ could respond with free bottles of scotch (or similar) like infamous Southwest deal !!!


Wow, ECONOMICS, you really love making a drama out of everything dont you? This was inevitable, DJ was always going to come out and release lower fares than QF on business class seats, and was always going to be due around early November. QF will return serve, but it is far from the big (or should I say REAL) DEAL that you make it out to be.

[Edited 2011-11-01 23:36:51]

[Edited 2011-11-01 23:37:41]
 
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EK413
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RE: Qantas Grounds Entire Airline Pt. 3

Wed Nov 02, 2011 6:21 am

Quoting shamrock604 (Reply 109):
For what reason exactly?

I will try and keep my personal opinion to my self next time...

Quoting shamrock604 (Reply 109):
Try being on a pay freeze for the last four years!

A pay "increase" freeze of 3 years was accepted by all QF staff while executives found it inappropriate to do the same during difficult times! & this is the THANKYOU the staff receive...

Quoting shamrock604 (Reply 109):
I've personally taken it on the chin for the last four years. That's an effective pay cut of 15% considering inflation. But I know my employer needs it to ensure it's survival.

On a personal note I am sorry to hear and hope it all bounces back soon... As for QF and the fight ahead I'll sit back and see how it all unfolds...

EK413
 
EDICHC
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RE: Qantas Grounds Entire Airline Pt. 3

Wed Nov 02, 2011 6:23 am

Quoting packersfan (Reply 102):
if occasionally you acknowledged there had been transgressions performed on the unions side. Sadly they can do no wrong and management are pretty much the Devils right hand men.

I'm not claiming that unions are always on the side of the angels..far from it. There have been many rogue trade union leaders hoodwinking their members over the years and indeed some over-militant unions. But that is not the case here.

My point is that union members pay their fees to the union for their representation to protect their interests. when an employer starts to ship jobs overseas the membership have to take whatever they feel is necessary to block this guided by their leaders.

If your employer ever planned to close down your workplace and transfer the work overseas where workers are paid 1/4 of what you earn then perhaps you may have a more sympathetic view of what has been going on.
 
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shamrock604
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RE: Qantas Grounds Entire Airline Pt. 3

Wed Nov 02, 2011 6:28 am

Quoting EK413 (Reply 112):
I will try and keep my personal opinion to my self next time...

I am just shocked that in a country I was lead to believe was tolerant, open and embracing of other cultures that such unbelievable racism is acceptable. The sheer volume of it on these threads is quite frankly disturbing as is the bizarre unquestioning acceptance of it. I'd go so far as to say SOME of you Australians need to have a good chat with yourselves about your alleged high standards of tolerance and fairness....

Quoting EK413 (Reply 112):
On a personal note I am sorry to hear and hope it all bounces back soon... As for QF and the fight ahead I'll sit back and see how it all unfolds...

Thank you for your kind words. It's tough but we'll get there in the end.

Airline collapse is not a nice thing. I've been through it twice already. Dont put yourself through it either..... just some friendly advice!  
 
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EK413
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RE: Qantas Grounds Entire Airline Pt. 3

Wed Nov 02, 2011 6:29 am

Quoting EDICHC (Reply 113):
I'm not claiming that unions are always on the side of the angels..far from it. There have been many rogue trade union leaders hoodwinking their members over the years and indeed some over-militant unions. But that is not the case here.

My point is that union members pay their fees to the union for their representation to protect their interests. when an employer starts to ship jobs overseas the membership have to take whatever they feel is necessary to block this guided by their leaders.

If your employer ever planned to close down your workplace and transfer the work overseas where workers are paid 1/4 of what you earn then perhaps you may have a more sympathetic view of what has been going on.

Glad someone agrees!

EK413
 
Airvan00
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RE: Qantas Grounds Entire Airline Pt. 3

Wed Nov 02, 2011 6:40 am

Quoting EDICHC (Reply 113):
If your employer ever planned to close down your workplace and transfer the work overseas where workers are paid 1/4 of what you earn then perhaps you may have a more sympathetic view of what has been going on.

Isn't this is what Globalisation is all about. What happened to the clothing industry, the manufacturing industry and the motor industry in Australia. Governments and their populations decided a long time ago that they wanted cheap prices and they don't care about the loss of jobs; "its cheaper on the Internet, so get it there" the fact that the local book store has closed has passed them by.
Nowadays if you don't like the company, the pay or conditions, go somewhere else, and that applies to all employees as well as Qantas employees. I am afraid the globalisation ship has sailed, but Qantas employees are just realising.
 
packersfan
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RE: Qantas Grounds Entire Airline Pt. 3

Wed Nov 02, 2011 6:41 am

Quoting EDICHC (Reply 113):
Quoting packersfan (Reply 102):
if occasionally you acknowledged there had been transgressions performed on the unions side. Sadly they can do no wrong and management are pretty much the Devils right hand men.

I'm not claiming that unions are always on the side of the angels..far from it. There have been many rogue trade union leaders hoodwinking their members over the years and indeed some over-militant unions. But that is not the case here.

My point is that union members pay their fees to the union for their representation to protect their interests. when an employer starts to ship jobs overseas the membership have to take whatever they feel is necessary to block this guided by their leaders.

If your employer ever planned to close down your workplace and transfer the work overseas where workers are paid 1/4 of what you earn then perhaps you may have a more sympathetic view of what has been going on.

Once again an entire statement finding no wrong in this scenario. Recommending people not to fly Qantas leading up to Xmas as done by the unions, would have to be one of the most provocative and stupid things to come out of any unionists mouth in a long time. And they certainly set the bar quite high in that regard.
 
baroque
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RE: Qantas Grounds Entire Airline Pt. 3

Wed Nov 02, 2011 7:11 am

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 70):
My child figured that one out at age 2.

Well we did expect him/her (I know I know but I have to admit forgetting) to be precocious, but is it that long ago?

Quoting mariner (Reply 83):
I say again, it was a remarkable victory for Mr. Joyce - it does not mean he has won the war - but the unions handed him that victory on a plate.

You could be in for a suprise.
A. From reports at the FWA the tribunal seem to have been more irritated at the QF actions than the Union ones. This is not to say that one was better than the other, just PR as you keep telling us. I think the Unions presented far far better to FWA than did management.
B. It may be the case that FWA CAN arbitrate conditions that would include ruling on the extent of offshoring. I think Joyce's great hope was that arbitration could not.
C. Joyce has to face a Senate committee on Friday. There he will have his supporters (Libs, but probably not Nats) and his opponents, Government and Greens. It appears that the Government is less than pleased with QF. They may be accused of incompetency, but Labor Australian style really knows how to hold a grudge.
D. One letter to the SMH commented, this would be a really good week for SQ to talk to the Government about rights to fly SYD to LAX!!! And the author could be right.

Quoting fiscal (Reply 86):
It was on the front page when I posted yesterday, and it is still there today. 5316 votes cast, 52.39% said AJ did the right thing, 43.04% said he did not.

Found it eventually. I was silly enough to suppose that if I wanted to find something trying "POLLS" in search would help.

Quoting RyanairGuru (Reply 88):
or Kiwi!

Not wrong there. Or imagine had he been a Dago or a Slant. Australia is really quite a racist part of the world in terms of "acceptable" modes of speech, but it is mainly epithets. For a good dose of real underlying racism try SE Asia or NE Asia. Bill Hayden when he retired as GG had an excellent bon mot about that which I will leave the diligent to look up. Living in a mixed marriage (including living from time to time in an Asian country) and employing from time to time various non European ethnicities, I am a fairly keen obverver of racism around the world.

Quoting BoeingVista (Reply 95):
As to the sabotage claims, repeating a lie often enough will not make it the truth.

But you can try, as we seem to be seeing with the supposed groundings due to union action before the main event. As has been noted some were for sale, and I bet some were just underbooked. And my justification for that suggestion seems as soundly based as some of those against the unions - just a "happy" thought!

Quoting mariner (Reply 92):
I've no idea what passengers in London were told. I don't know what pax were told were their flights were cancelled because of union industrial action, either.

We do not really have a dissection of pax with flights cancelled due to union action, but we do have a bundle about those cancelled due to QF action. You are in effect trying to force me to support the union actions - which I do not - by assuming they were the only ones at fault. This is an equal opportunity spat as far as I am concerned. Although I AM having trouble is seeing what the faults of the pilots were!!! Wearing RED ties, my goodness gracious me.

Quoting EK413 (Reply 96):
You must of forgotten the passenger's seated, buckled and ready for push back... & all of a sudden over the pa an announcement Sorry ladies and gentleman your not going anywhere today course Mr Joyce has taken upon him self to ground us and prevent us from flying you to your final destination...

Indeed some appear to be doing just this. It was gratuitous bastardry. There was no need to stop QF31/32 mid flight.

Quoting packersfan (Reply 97):
I have been waiting for Baroque and Boeingvista to say they had seen Alan Joyce and Tony Abbott sneaking onto an aircraft hand in hand and with the pliers at the ready.

Yes, we have, but I am having trouble getting my glass plate of the event developed.       Look, I and BV cannot help it if you do not pay attention to work out that we have been equal opportunity critics. It has been a domestic, but after niggling each other for YEARS, one side went ballistic and while going ballistic buggered up the travel of near on 100,000 folk for up to 72 hours. That was not an acceptable tactic to gentle souls such as your targets.      

Quoting mariner (Reply 104):
Quoting BoeingVista (Reply 101):
I think your side of the argument would carry much more weight, if occasionally you acknowledged there had been transgressions performed on the unions side.

As I've said several times, it has me baffled. I don't understand the need by so many to downplay or whitewash the union industrial action.

Sigh.

ONE. That was not BV,
TWO as I just said, go back and especially when it was an equal opportunity fight, both of us criticised the unions.
THREE Since Joyce was canonised and replaced Einstein as the smartest guy not around, it has been constant brilliant AJ this superb tactics AJ that. Well if pissing off all his customers is good tactics, yep I guess he is travelling well.
FOUR. This is Australia, if you put someone up on a bloody great big pinnacle, then folk will attempt to knock him off.

It is a war not a battle. And if you read the tealeaves at the FWA AJ may have lost the FWA battle too in spite of the findings of obscure polls. Bet you the tribunal do not read the polls, even IF they could find them.

And there are some truly astonishing video clips of Abbott failing to answer when Qantas told him they would ground the fleet. Then Hockey has added to his woes.

And at the end of it all, we have cautioned to read up about Godwin Grech. That looked an open and shut case, until it turned out it was all invented.

One way or another, both of us have been suggesting that suspended judgement would be the smarter course of action. At this stage, what is clear is that the most severe damage has been inflicted by QF and not the unions, even if the latter were trying their best. And it appears both government and possibly the FWA have that opinion too. That is probably two more enemies than you need???

Quoting shamrock604 (Reply 109):
Please do elaborate. I'm all ears as to why these comments seem to be somehow acceptable and why people justify them by telling me that "it would be worse if he was a pom or a kiwi"

Sorry about it but Australia is an equal opportunity insult zone, that is just the way it is. You either learn to live with it, or I guess you get out. After 52 years here, I suppose I must have figured out a way to manage. You do know that with the right inflexion, being called a bastard is about the highest compliment around here? And with a different inflexion about the worst derogatory remark.

Quoting packersfan (Reply 117):
Once again an entire statement finding no wrong in this scenario. Recommending people not to fly Qantas leading up to Xmas as done by the unions, would have to be one of the most provocative and stupid things to come out of any unionists mouth in a long time. And they certainly set the bar quite high in that regard.

Agreed, that is VERY wrong. But have you actually seen a unionist tied down with a documented quote to this effect? Happy to read any DOCUMENTED evidence. And do not doubt it, FWA will be looking too.

As far as I can see, either the Unions are very clever at not leaving fingerprints on all this evidence, or quite a bit of it might be coming from the other side.

But as I have said before whatever the level of bastardry from the Unions, this was swiftly overtaken on Saturday by Joyce. No longer a fair contest in awarding points for bastardry.
 
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EK413
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RE: Qantas Grounds Entire Airline Pt. 3

Wed Nov 02, 2011 7:17 am

Quoting shamrock604 (Reply 114):
I am just shocked that in a country I was lead to believe was tolerant, open and embracing of other cultures that such unbelievable racism is acceptable.

Once again I apologise for my remark which offended you, probably others a.netter's and prepared to lose face in the process however as for my opinions on QF's CEO I choose to keep it to myself...

The airline should've been lead by no other but JB which is certainly doing a good job turning a low-cost carrier into Australia's next national carrier...

EK413
 
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mariner
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RE: Qantas Grounds Entire Airline Pt. 3

Wed Nov 02, 2011 7:32 am

Quoting Baroque (Reply 118):
You could be in for a suprise.

Why? I said it doesn't mean he's won the war - as here:

Quoting mariner (Reply 83):
it does not mean he has won the war

He got what he wanted, an end to the industrial action - assuming the unions stick to it.

Quoting Baroque (Reply 118):
It is a war not a battle.

Exactly as I said - as here:

Quoting mariner (Reply 83):
it does not mean he has won the war

But:

Quoting Baroque (Reply 118):
And if you read the tealeaves at the FWA AJ may have lost the FWA battle too in spite of the findings of obscure polls.

I can't read tea leaves - I go entirely by what is in the public domain and my own understanding of human psychology - and I do not recall ever mentioning a poll, obscure or otherwise.

Quoting Baroque (Reply 118):
One way or another, both of us have been suggesting that suspended judgement would be the smarter course of action.

Since that's in your reply to me I assume you mean me, but I haven't been suggesting that. Nor do I care a fig Mr. Abbots's woes, that isn't my fight.

And I'm not sure who is canonizing Mr. Joyce or putting him ahead of Einstein. Yes, he's a brilliant academic, but my view is that he is essentially a ruthless street fighter - for fairly obvious reasons, which have also been sneered at here.

mariner

[Edited 2011-11-02 00:46:30]
 
NTLDaz
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RE: Qantas Grounds Entire Airline Pt. 3

Wed Nov 02, 2011 7:38 am

Quoting shamrock604 (Reply 109):
You guys really dont have it all that bad, and I think you perhaps need a timely reminder of that! I know things are good economically in Oz, but it's not so anywhere else

It's unfortunate that the Irish ( and much of Europe's ) economy has tanked but that is not the case here and workers should not be refraining from seeking increases from employers because of situations in the rest of the world.

What is truly unfortunate is the outrageous salaries ( bonuses, share options and all ) which are paid to CEO's in Australia. This is very much an Anglo thing in many respects. Excellent article about this in todays SMH.

http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/politi...are-undeserved-20111101-1mttj.html
 
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shamrock604
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RE: Qantas Grounds Entire Airline Pt. 3

Wed Nov 02, 2011 8:05 am

Quoting NTLDaz (Reply 121):

Actually, Ireland is now growing again, slowly, but faster than any other EU economy bar latvia.

My point was not that what happens elsewhere should influence QF staff pay demands, but rather that some markets they operate into remain weak, and that competition from the usual suspects is eroding QF and it would be sensible for you in the long run to contain your cost base.

I totally agree on executive salaries. Not one arguement from me there!
 
baroque
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RE: Qantas Grounds Entire Airline Pt. 3

Wed Nov 02, 2011 9:54 am

Quoting mariner (Reply 120):
Quoting Baroque (Reply 118):
And if you read the tealeaves at the FWA AJ may have lost the FWA battle too in spite of the findings of obscure polls.

I can't read tea leaves - I go entirely by what is in the public domain

My comment was it is being assumed that Joyce won the battle but if you look at reports of the FWA deliberations, you could come to the conclusion that the FWA took a more dim view of QF than of the unions. Those are the tea leaves. Read the articles from folk who were at the hearings. They are trying to draw inferences where conclusions would be nice, hence the reference to tea leaves.

No. Boeingvista and I were being accused of being blind to the sins of the unions and I was trying to point out that the flood of "Joyce sticks it to the Unions" was making anyone who cast doubts over that interpretation of the FWA findings (and I might say the slants given by the pollies interviews) is being assumed to be supporting the unions. Questioning an interpretation of the merits of one side, does not imply support for the other side.

If you go back over the whole set of threads, I think you will find us equal opportunity head kickers. But just at the moment the head up on the pinnacle for admiration is that of Joyce.

Mind you, can someone tell me what the major sins of the pilots were?

And I, at least, think Joyce is in a very vulnerable position due to what I think was precipitate and rather foolish action either in the past couple of weeks or last Saturday - depending on which story he is telling today.

And note, there will be a big differences in how foolish it is judged to be depending if they had made prior preparations.

I also go back to the gratuitous nature of some of the damage inflicted on pax by Joyce. There was no need to make it quite so painful for the long haul passengers marooning them in - for starters - BKK and LHR, when there were travel advisories against going to BKK due to the floods!!!

Now the ACCC is having a look at the compensation. Telstra will tell you having the ACCC sniffing around can be fairly unpleasant. The chances of QF coming out of the compensation stakes smelling of roses is close to zero.

And as I said, there is now some opinion - never been tested before so who actually knows - that the arbitration phase can take into account precisely those aspects Joyce was hoping to avoid.

Another feature that is not going the Joyce way is the criticism of the Government for not invoking Ministerial powers. It was known that any such judgement could be litigated. It is not clear that the FWA one can, although it appears that the unions may be going to check that out. Joyce badly needs to avoid there being an appearance of collusion between him and the HM Loyal Opposition. Not doing well there so far. As I said, Hockey already been "taken into protective custody".
 
baroque
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RE: Qantas Grounds Entire Airline Pt. 3

Wed Nov 02, 2011 10:04 am

From the ABC website:
But ACCC chairman Rod Sims said Qantas had not gone far enough in its support and said passengers should be compensated for all reasonable expenses incurred because of the grounding.

"These circumstances are extraordinary and there have been a huge number of passengers significantly affected," Mr Sims said.

"It is squarely in the airline's camp to make good.

"If you have incurred additional expenses as a result of the grounding, the ACCC is of the view that Qantas should compensate you for all your reasonable losses."

In a statement, Qantas has acknowledged the concerns of the ACCC and says it will shortly be announcing further measures as an apology to affected customers.

"Qantas has always intended to ensure that disrupted customers incur no financial loss," the airline said.

The consumer watchdog wants a report from Qantas within the next month on the claims made and how it has addressed them.


So it ain't over till they give the report a pass.

More pain?
 
TruemanQLD
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RE: Qantas Grounds Entire Airline Pt. 3

Wed Nov 02, 2011 10:14 am

Quoting Baroque (Reply 124):
So it ain't over till they give the report a pass.

More pain?

No. QF has been incredibly generous so far, and while you will probably return by saying they have only been 'covering their ass', they have not only refunded passengers but also pay the extra to their other flight, hotels, food etc. Didnt get that when Tiger was grounded, but I suppose, thats irrelevant, as it isnt QF bashing? While it has been a major drama for many passengers, QF has done the very best they can to ensure that passengers are handled the best they can. A big congratulations must go to the QF airport check in and other customer service staff for this, who, by all accounts, have done a fantastic job, given the circumstances, but again, I should stop looking at the positives, and instead focus 100% on QF bashing, yes?
 
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par13del
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RE: Qantas Grounds Entire Airline Pt. 3

Wed Nov 02, 2011 10:33 am

Quoting JMM99 (Reply 85):
Joyce had no choice. He had to stop the insane unions.

+ he had to ground the fleet, or the unions would had sabotaged aircraft.

Just dealing with your last statement, who exactly do you expect to put the a/c back in the air?
In your words, Joyce has stopped the insane unions, if he did not ground the fleet they would have sabotaged the a/c, meaning if they were flying. So he shafted the union, and the a/c are now going to be flying again, so questions:
1. Is Qantas bringing in non-union mechanics / engineers to maintain the a/c, since the union cannot be trusted.
2. Is the union and it members in agreement with what Mr. Joyce did and are now happy and will not sabotage a/c?
Since sabotage is not a union or legal action, and the union has not been charged with sabotage, it stands to reason
that sabotage was not part of the prior industrial action, nor the FWA ruling, so.........?

It is one thing to play a PR game, and if Qantas management or their supporters want to claim that the unions were sabotaging a/c, then for public safety both management, the aviation authorities and the police need to be on hand at every a/c serviced by union personnel to ensure that no sabotage is done and that a/c are safe for the travelling public. If an obvious act of sabotage is missed and the a/c takes off any bets on what would / could happen?

Quoting PlanesNTrains (Reply 93):
Who keeps the unions honest? Anybody???

The members, same people who keep management honest, their members, let's leave the public out of this for now.
It's no accident that union membership has been declining while management ranks have been increasing.
 
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mariner
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RE: Qantas Grounds Entire Airline Pt. 3

Wed Nov 02, 2011 10:34 am

Quoting Baroque (Reply 123):
My comment was it is being assumed that Joyce won the battle but if you look at reports of the FWA deliberations, you could come to the conclusion that the FWA took a more dim view of QF than of the unions. Those are the tea leaves. Read the articles from folk who were at the hearings. They are trying to draw inferences where conclusions would be nice, hence the reference to tea leaves.

It doesn't matter how critical they are of him, he won the battle. He may not win the war, I don't know, I can't predict the future.

I do believe that something dramatic has to happen at Qantas, and that you blokes really have to make up your minds what you want - a viable commercial enterprise or a state-supported icon

I don't care either way, but I do not believe it can be both and, I believe, Mr. Joyce is fulfilling the requirements of him by the - present - owners. Change the ownership and it may be a different story.

Quoting Baroque (Reply 123):
No. Boeingvista and I were being accused of being blind to the sins of the unions and I was trying to point out that the flood of "Joyce sticks it to the Unions" was making anyone who cast doubts over that interpretation of the FWA findings (and I might say the slants given by the pollies interviews) is being assumed to be supporting the unions.

You've certainly given me the impression that you are blind to effects of the union actions - I don't consider them "sins"

But I say again, if the union actions weren't designed to hurt Qantas then what was the point of them? And if they didn't actually hurt Qantas, then the union leaders are more inept than I had imagined.

Quoting Baroque (Reply 123):
Now the ACCC is having a look at the compensation.

I understood that had been resolved, at least in concept, that Qantas has agreed to give more compensation.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-15550107

"Qantas has agreed to further compensate passengers affected by its move to ground its entire fleet over a dispute with unions.

The move comes after the Australian Competition and Consumer Commission (ACCC) asked it to act on the matter."


Since I so seldom contribute to these Australian aviation/Qantas threads, I don't recall when you and I were "equal opportunity head-kickers", but if you say it's so, I suppose it must have happened.

But I don't regard myself as a head-kicker and I don't want to be regarded as a head-kicker. An iconoclast? Absolutely. Out in left field? For sure - I've been there all my life, and for obvious reasons.

So yes, for those reasons, I have an additional and personal interest in this - which I have discussed - but which your mate BoeingVista has dismissed as laughable and you have dismissed as completely irrelevant.

Since there is no common meeting ground between us on any of these matters - the debate seems pointless.

mariner

[Edited 2011-11-02 03:39:18]
 
TruemanQLD
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RE: Qantas Grounds Entire Airline Pt. 3

Wed Nov 02, 2011 10:52 am

Quoting par13del (Reply 126):
If an obvious act of sabotage is missed and the a/c takes off any bets on what would / could happen?

I think any possible sabotage will be IFE entertainment being sabotaged, but that is about it. Any aircraft that are sabotaged so that they are unsafe to fly... well then that would be one engineer who is suffering from a severe mental disorder, as, in no way, would the Unions support any move to bring down an aircraft, it would be so highly illegal and wrong, its not even worth thinking about.

No matter how angry some engineers or workers may be at management, they have absolutely no excuse for sabotage as it is illegal and would get them fired and arrested. I dont think even the people on this forum that support the unions the most would consider sabotage as an acceptable means of 'getting your point across', though I could be wrong?
 
baroque
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RE: Qantas Grounds Entire Airline Pt. 3

Wed Nov 02, 2011 11:19 am

Quoting TruemanQLD (Reply 128):
Quoting par13del (Reply 126):
If an obvious act of sabotage is missed and the a/c takes off any bets on what would / could happen?

I think any possible sabotage will be IFE entertainment being sabotaged, but that is about it. Any aircraft that are sabotaged so that they are unsafe to fly... well then that would be one engineer

Last time I flew on a 767 international flight, QF could not stop apologising for the inferior IFE system (compared with the scheduled A33x). So perhaps they came pre-sabotaged?

Even after I had returned by A33x, I got a long letter of apology about the 767.

For another view of the affair Qantas try:
http://www.abc.net.au/iview/?series=3327486#/series/3327486
Gruen Planet and how to rebuild the image of Qantas.

35 m file size 175 megs.
 
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BoeingVista
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RE: Qantas Grounds Entire Airline Pt. 3

Wed Nov 02, 2011 11:56 am

Quoting Baroque (Reply 118):

Yep, what he said..

The genius that is Alan Joyce

Virgin basks in the glow as brand Qantas crashes and burns

Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/business/virgi...-20111102-1mv8n.html#ixzz1cXvZmXml

Quote:
Virgin Australia's boss, John Borghetti, said today that the grounding of Qantas's fleet for two days showed the need for a "strong second carrier".

snip

Virgin carried 30,000 extra passengers in the three days after Qantas grounded its fleet, while those passing though its airport lounges "went through the roof – they literally went stratospheric".

snip

The government helped in relaxing curfews at Sydney Airport and allowing pilots who fly Virgin aircraft on international routes to be deployed to domestic aircraft.

Consumers can now look forward to a price war on fares between airlines as Qantas is forced to slash ticket prices and offer other incentives to entice disgruntled passengers back.

snip

Virgin also began sales of business-class tickets today for flights from January 18 on the so-called "golden triangle" between Melbourne, Sydney and Brisbane, aiming to break Qantas's monopoly on the high-end market.



So virgin carried an extra 30,000 PAX which it intends to try and keep

Qantas can look forward to a domestic price war on the only part of its business it claims is making a profit

Qantas has hacked off the government enough that it is bending over backwards to help Virgin expand into the domestic market

And the government is seriously beginning to believe that Qantas may have colluded with the opposition over the grounding, there was serious strangeness in Parliament today when the opposition failed to ask a single question on Qantas during question time (yesterday they were ALL about Qantas) and when the government started getting stuck into them about Joe Hockey's comments implying that he was forewarned (look him up and what he said) the opposition moved an adjournment debate to kill question time. Governments don't quickly forget those that cross them.

Pure Genius AJ keep it up!

You know, we have gotten thorough 3 threads without even mentioning the RB211 maintenance and safety issues caused by Qantas management cost cutting that closed the engine shop in Sydney. They are about an engine a month (generally on take off) currently because of a known issue, which causes a risk to airframe and passengers RR has had a fix for this for years but Qantas cannot implement it because its maintenance contractor does not have the capacity.
 
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par13del
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RE: Qantas Grounds Entire Airline Pt. 3

Wed Nov 02, 2011 12:04 pm

Quoting TruemanQLD (Reply 128):
I think any possible sabotage will be IFE entertainment being sabotaged, but that is about it.

So the PR being put out about union sabotage is meant to be detailed enough that regular pax will know that the sabotage is restricted to nuisance items, do the PR people really think its that simple?

To be clear, I was only responding to the previous poster about union sabotage, I personally do not believe that engineers wouuld deliberately risk the lives of pax even their families who may be passengers on a/c they or their co-workers work on, howvever, with that said, when PR folks have at it and make statements about sabotage the general public has a right to be scared and to respond accordingly, meaning that management who may have been implicit in the PR getting out there will have to actually get onboard a/c singing kumbyyah with union folks in public to restore confidence.
In my line of thinking, all is not fair in this type of war, you end up killing the goose that laid the golden egg. Since the government has chosen not to protect Qantas routes from competition, obviously they are prepared for the airline to sink or swim on its own.
 
TruemanQLD
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RE: Qantas Grounds Entire Airline Pt. 3

Wed Nov 02, 2011 12:06 pm

Quoting Baroque (Reply 129):
Last time I flew on a 767 international flight, QF could not stop apologising for the inferior IFE system (compared with the scheduled A33x). So perhaps they came pre-sabotaged?

And again with the needless QF bashing that really adds absolutely nothing to the conversation, except outlines why we should all take any of your 'well thought about, and very knowledgeable' comments with a gigantic grain of salt.
 
baroque
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RE: Qantas Grounds Entire Airline Pt. 3

Wed Nov 02, 2011 1:03 pm

Quoting BoeingVista (Reply 130):
You know, we have gotten thorough 3 threads without even mentioning the RB211 maintenance and safety issues caused by Qantas management cost cutting that closed the engine shop in Sydney. They are about an engine a month (generally on take off) currently because of a known issue, which causes a risk to airframe and passengers RR has had a fix for this for years but Qantas cannot implement it because its maintenance contractor does not have the capacity.

But not forgotten. I have been in correspondence during these threads with someone over that very matter and we were both wondering who is doing this maintenance, I had assumed it was RR, but from your post apparently not??? The T900s are RR are they not? From what you write, not the RB211s?? Had not realised that.

The Gruen folk criticised QF over the lack of facts in their PR. I guess if what you say is true, the unions have been missing a trick or two there as well if what you say is the case. It would have caused me to be a bit more nervous when I took three 747 flights recently, two of them over the dreaded Gt S Ocean.

Quoting TruemanQLD (Reply 132):
Quoting Baroque (Reply 129):
Last time I flew on a 767 international flight, QF could not stop apologising for the inferior IFE system (compared with the scheduled A33x). So perhaps they came pre-sabotaged?

And again with the needless QF bashing that really adds absolutely nothing to the conversation, except outlines why we should all take any of your 'well thought about, and very knowledgeable' comments with a gigantic grain of salt.

Actually, I quite liked that particular grain of salt as part of the apologetic letter was a credit for my next flight that amounted to about 25% of what I had paid for the ticket.

So reporting actual events is QF bashing. Sigh. You need to listen to Russel Howcroft. And then after Russel try Todd Sampson.

Anyway point taken, I will remember to submit any complaints I have re QF in duplicate to you for approval prior to posting.
 
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BoeingVista
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RE: Qantas Grounds Entire Airline Pt. 3

Wed Nov 02, 2011 1:48 pm

Quoting Baroque (Reply 133):
But not forgotten. I have been in correspondence during these threads with someone over that very matter and we were both wondering who is doing this maintenance, I had assumed it was RR, but from your post apparently not??? The T900s are RR are they not? From what you write, not the RB211s?? Had not realised that.

Both are RR (PM close your eyes now, what follows is not pretty)

The maintenence is being farmed out to a facility in Hong Kong who also do Cathays RB211's, Cathay also lunched an engine last week. CASA is monitoring the RB211 failure rate and may at some point order the accelerated replacement of the potentially faulty part. HK may still be an RR facility though, not sure.

I believe that the T900's are maintained by RR or an agent directly appointed by RR under their total care program.

A quick AVHerald search indicates that since 17th July both Cathay and Qantas have suffered 2 RB211 failures of a similar nature described as a bang and shudder, followed by a return to airport which is consistent with the known problem of blade failure, some of these failures have been uncontained according to CASA.

[Edited 2011-11-02 07:38:43]
 
ozglobal
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RE: Qantas Grounds Entire Airline Pt. 3

Wed Nov 02, 2011 1:55 pm

Quoting Baroque (Reply 118):
Quoting shamrock604 (Reply 109):
Please do elaborate. I'm all ears as to why these comments seem to be somehow acceptable and why people justify them by telling me that "it would be worse if he was a pom or a kiwi"

Sorry about it but Australia is an equal opportunity insult zone, that is just the way it is. You either learn to live with it, or I guess you get out. After 52 years here, I suppose I must have figured out a way to manage. You do know that with the right inflexion, being called a bastard is about the highest compliment around here? And with a different inflexion about the worst derogatory remark.

Right. And in my experience the "equal opportunity insult zone" is a pretty strong part of the culture in UK, NZ and IR as well (although it would never fly in the US; far too literal a culture). All three's countrymen certainly play it that way when they are in Oz! Let's not be too precious then about something already part of one's own culture...
 
baroque
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RE: Qantas Grounds Entire Airline Pt. 3

Wed Nov 02, 2011 1:59 pm

Quoting BoeingVista (Reply 134):
A quick AVHerald search indicates that since 17th July both Cathay and Qantas have suffered 2 RB211 failures of a similar nature described as a bang and shudder, followed by a return to airport which is consistent with the know problem of blade failure, some of these failures have been uncontained according to CASA.

More or less, GOOD GRIEF but thanks for the (I think) unwelcome information!! And there were at least two spectacular ones before that and before the T900 failure. About all I can say is WTF.

At least it is equal op for CX and QF I suppose, but but but. Wonder if PM has a place for those events on his spreadsheet?

Have they fitted the T900 overspeed fix to the RB211 FADEC do you know?

Was there "better" PR when the Aus engine shop was going or did that not happen? I don't recall 211s falling apart back then, but there are lots of things I don't know!

Maybe CASA should get a fit of the AJs and act a bit more swiftly?? That is distinctly not nice.

How have the GE been going for failures, I know there were some?
 
baroque
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RE: Qantas Grounds Entire Airline Pt. 3

Wed Nov 02, 2011 2:32 pm

Quoting ozglobal (Reply 135):
And in my experience the "equal opportunity insult zone" is a pretty strong part of the culture in UK, NZ and IR as well (although it would never fly in the US; far too literal a culture).

Indeed and about 35 years ago there was a very interesting two way study on this very topic when Esso set up a major operation in Aus and as part of it imported quite a few Americans to Aus and Australians to their head office in Houston.

There were many problems and Esso eventually hired a Sociologist from Corvallis (IIRC) to work out what the problems were.

A. Americans were offended by the blunt mode of address they received from Australians and lack of respect for rank.

OK, that is easy enough to understand, but what were the Australians upset about.

B. Americans had such a level of formal politeness that Australians could never understand when they meant what they said and when they were just being polite for the sake of it. The example given that I remember was an Australian having an American visitor for dinner "Oh I do like your drapes" totally bewildered if they did or did not like them.

Rather amazingly, the sociologist's report actually helped.

While many many Irish get on just fine here, it could be that AJ does have cultural problems. Just as some POMs do essentially go home in tears, and some do not!

Then you get folk like John Clarke (a Kiwi for those who have not heard of Fred Dagg) who have become so much a part of Australian culture that he almost defines it.
 
PlanesNTrains
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RE: Qantas Grounds Entire Airline Pt. 3

Wed Nov 02, 2011 4:18 pm

Quoting EK413 (Reply 96):
Quoting PlanesNTrains (Reply 93):
Who keeps the unions honest? Anybody???

When your in a position with Management using their dirty tactics... get back to me....

Sorry, but as someone in "Management", it goes both ways. I'm not in a union environment, but regardless there are good and bad managers and good and bad non-managers. I'm dealing with an assistant at work right now who seems to be having interpersonal issues when I'm not around. However, that's the minority. I've also got a few employees who occasionally seem to need to create problems where none exist. The "dirty tactics" can go both ways if left unchecked.

How do you - or anyone - expect fellow union members to keep each other honest? My experience is that when you have some bad apples, it's very intimidating for others to really do anything about it, and often they'd prefer to let them do the heavy lifting and be "the bad guy" rather than try to reign them in. Then what?

We have a union issue in my state right now where they union members have been absolutely indifferent to the law or even what is right vs wrong. Detained a security guard for several hours, damaged property, threatened violence, allowed family members to do a sit in for them, blah blah blah. Who stood up? Who turned the bad guys in? No one, apparently.

My question stands, but can be left as rhetorical.

-Dave
 
MD11Engineer
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RE: Qantas Grounds Entire Airline Pt. 3

Wed Nov 02, 2011 4:59 pm

Quoting par13del (Reply 126):
It is one thing to play a PR game, and if Qantas management or their supporters want to claim that the unions were sabotaging a/c, then for public safety both management, the aviation authorities and the police need to be on hand at every a/c serviced by union personnel to ensure that no sabotage is done and that a/c are safe for the travelling public. If an obvious act of sabotage is missed and the a/c takes off any bets on what would / could happen?

Since the Australian Association of Licenced Engineers, same as their British counterpart, of which I´m a member, only accepts licenced engineers or their equals as members (this means people who have certification responsibilities and who know very well that their own @rses and their professional future will be in the line of fire if anything happens to the aircraft), I seriously doubt that, if they ever happened, any acts of sabotage were carried out by union members.

It might be unlicenced staff, but these are not organised in the union.

Jan
 
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mariner
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RE: Qantas Grounds Entire Airline Pt. 3

Wed Nov 02, 2011 5:41 pm

Quoting mariner (Reply 120):
Yes, he's a brilliant academic, but my view is that he is essentially a ruthless street fighter

There's a fun assessment of Mr. Joyce in The Age today, largely confirming my assessment of him.

It tackles the Irish question head-on, but positively, in discussing the (fairly profound) effect a small group of Irish CEO's are having on civil aviation.

http://www.theage.com.au/national/th...he-costcutters-20111102-1mvk3.html

"The rise of the cost-cutters

When Joyce took to the podium at the Four Seasons Hotel, he was quick to acknowledge the remarkable place his homeland now occupies in running the world's airlines.

''There must be something in the water - or the Guinness,'' began Joyce, ''because there's certainly a very special Irish connection with aviation.

Waxing lyrical, Joyce drew upon famed Irish writers to extend the theme. ''Oscar Wilde thought we were all in the gutter, but the best of us are 'looking at the stars'.


The other named CEO's include Willie Walsh at British and, inevitably, Michael O'Leary at Ryanair.

I have little doubt that it will annoy the heck out of the Joyce-bashers, and doubtless provide them what they think is ammunition, but to them I shrug - know your enemy.

It is surely an interesting, if minor, take on today's civil aviation, and thankfully, it has some sense of humor - or at least, perspective.

mariner
 
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shamrock604
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RE: Qantas Grounds Entire Airline Pt. 3

Wed Nov 02, 2011 7:26 pm

Quoting mariner (Reply 140):

Trust me, i am not exactly proud of this little trio. But they are just that - three people. Not a representative sample!

Aerlingus had a lovely individual by the name of Trevor Jensen, you may be familiar with him, who had to be got rid of because he was an industrial relations time bomb. But i'm not going to judge a whole country by him!

I'm glad AJ is responding to this element of the criticism against him. As i said, it just cheapens everyone's arguement.
 
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mariner
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RE: Qantas Grounds Entire Airline Pt. 3

Wed Nov 02, 2011 7:38 pm

Quoting shamrock604 (Reply 141):
Trust me, i am not exactly proud of this little trio. But they are just that - three people. Not a representative sample!

Oh, I think that is a pity. I think this little trio has dragged civil aviation kicking and screaming into the modern world.

There is a - to me - a frightening elitism that attaches to legacy airlines, which elitism, I think, dooms them to eventual failure, unless they are state supported.

In this case, Qantas, we have the Australian PM commissioning a study on how Australia responds to and becomes involved with what she calls "the Asian Century" - it seems to me that Mr. Joyce is way ahead of her.

The PM has also said that Australia's engagement with Asia would be fraught with some difficulties, and Qantas is sure showing that to be true. It is the heart of the union objection to the Qantas plan - "outsourcing by stealth."

It used to be that Asia was where Australians flew over on their way to London - that is not the reality now.

mariner
 
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shamrock604
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RE: Qantas Grounds Entire Airline Pt. 3

Wed Nov 02, 2011 7:54 pm

Quoting mariner (Reply 142):

Perhaps Mariner, but I feel the treatment of staff leaves a hell of a lot to be desired, certainly in MOL's case. You need to being people with you, something that my own management has actually been very good at.
 
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mariner
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RE: Qantas Grounds Entire Airline Pt. 3

Wed Nov 02, 2011 8:08 pm

Quoting shamrock604 (Reply 143):
Perhaps Mariner, but I feel the treatment of staff leaves a hell of a lot to be desired, certainly in MOL's case. You need to being people with you, something that my own management has actually been very good at.

I understand that staff feel that way, and it may be desirable, but everyone does it differently.

MOL runs one of the most consistently profitable airlines in the world - an airline that has changed the way people travel and an airline that has comparatively little industrial strife - and I don't second guess that.

No one owes me a living. I have had to fight and claw my way to where I got, in the most competitive industry in the world - and I worked for some arseholes in the process. But it was my choice to work for them and my loyalty has always - always - been to the person who signs my pay cheque. When I was unable to give that loyalty - I left.

Oddly, one of the men who taught me this, in my formative years, was one of the great (if adopted) Irishmen, Micheál Mac Liammóir, who was a magnificent actor, a ruthless street fighter, an Irish patriot - and overtly homosexual at a time when it was both denounced and illegal.

 

mariner

[Edited 2011-11-02 13:35:16]
 
bennett123
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RE: Qantas Grounds Entire Airline Pt. 3

Wed Nov 02, 2011 8:24 pm

Boeingvista

If RR's local providers can not schedule the work, then surely their contract will allow the work to be done elsewhere?.
 
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shamrock604
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RE: Qantas Grounds Entire Airline Pt. 3

Wed Nov 02, 2011 9:48 pm

Quoting mariner (Reply 142):
There is a - to me - a frightening elitism that attaches to legacy airlines, which elitism, I think, dooms them to eventual failure, unless they are state supported.

I agree strongly on this point, but I would argue that the three Irish airline CEO's mentioned are guilty of building up their very own elite. None of them is seemingly very strong on communication with their people. None of them impress in terms of building solid relationships across their companies.

They might indeed be very good at warding off threats, building lean organisations and such. But it's useless with a disaffected staff body with no unity of purpose.

I'm lucky I suppose that I cant make that complaint about my own situation. I gladly accepted the pay restraint for the good of the organisation and thus to guarantee longevity of employment. That really must say something for management at my company. (Who incidentally, are also Irish......  )

Quoting mariner (Reply 144):
No one owes me a living. I have had to fight and claw my way to where I got, in the most competitive industry in the world - and I worked for some arseholes in the process. But it was my choice to work for them and my loyalty has always - always - been to the person who signs my pay cheque. When I was unable to give that loyalty - I left.

Oddly, one of the men who taught me this, in my formative years, was one of the great (if adopted) Irishmen, Micheál Mac Liammóir, who was a magnificent actor, a ruthless street fighter, an Irish patriot - and overtly homosexual at a time when it was both denounced and illegal.

That ethic is the only one that will serve you in this world. If you are hoping for such things as guaranteed tenure, you are living in a dream world, and anyone in QF who really thinks they have any chance of it in an era of competition is deluded.

Equally, harking back to a situation of state ownership and protectionism, which undoubtedly is cosy for staff, is doing a massive dis-service to the customer of QF who quite rightly demand efficient and affordable air travel.
 
CXB77L
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RE: Qantas Grounds Entire Airline Pt. 3

Thu Nov 03, 2011 2:31 am

Quoting mariner (Reply 144):
No one owes me a living. I have had to fight and claw my way to where I got, in the most competitive industry in the world - and I worked for some arseholes in the process. But it was my choice to work for them and my loyalty has always - always - been to the person who signs my pay cheque. When I was unable to give that loyalty - I left.

If only those striking QF workers had that same work ethic as you, this whole issue wouldn't even have reared its ugly head.

Quoting shamrock604 (Reply 146):
If you are hoping for such things as guaranteed tenure, you are living in a dream world, and anyone in QF who really thinks they have any chance of it in an era of competition is deluded.

  

Others in various QF grounding threads have argued that this has been a PR disaster for QF. I disagree. Yes, grouding an entire airline was a drastic move, but since the unions and the government left QF management with no other viable alternative, it had to be done for the good of the company. From reports I've read, industrial action was costing QF tens of millions of dollars a day in lost revenue, and the only way to stem that flow of money was to get the government and FWA to be involved and put an end to industrial action. It's been reported that Mr Joyce tried to contact Mr Albanese and Ms Gillard to announce his decision to ground the airline, and that if they didn't intervene he would have no alternative but to do so.

If I was a stranded QF passenger I'd be rather annoyed too ... but not at QF management. They have a responsibility to the company and its shareholders to ensure that the company stays afloat. If that means having to ground the entire airline to stem the bleeding, so be it.
 
EDICHC
Posts: 1545
Joined: Sun Nov 05, 2006 9:38 pm

RE: Qantas Grounds Entire Airline Pt. 3

Thu Nov 03, 2011 4:02 am

Quoting CXB77L (Reply 147):
But it was my choice to work for them and my loyalty has always - always - been to the person who signs my pay cheque. When I was unable to give that loyalty - I left.

If only those striking QF workers had that same work ethic as you, this whole issue wouldn't even have reared its ugly head.

Noble sentiments, but how do you respond when management repay that loyalty by issuing redundancy notices and shipping your job overseas? To put a work ethic into practice you need to have a job.

[Edited 2011-11-02 21:04:59]
 
col
Posts: 1707
Joined: Thu Nov 27, 2003 2:11 am

RE: Qantas Grounds Entire Airline Pt. 3

Thu Nov 03, 2011 4:15 am

Quoting EDICHC (Reply 148):
Noble sentiments, but how do you respond when management repay that loyalty by issuing redundancy notices and shpiing your job overseas? To put a work ethic into prractice you need to have a job.

Why do companies shift manufacturing etc overseas. To compete. I have established/managed Manufacturing sites in Thailand, China, USA and UK. There are obvious benefits for all parties when you look at the realities of the situation and communicate reasons. We were able to keep USA/UK open because we established the Asian ops. Yes, we downsized, but we managed to lose most through retirements etc.

I was very impressed that QF set up Jet Star in Asia to spread their wings, as you could see the clouds building up in their home market with Virgin, ME and US Carriers.

If QF is to survive, it will need efforts and understanding from both sides, sadly frustration is the name of the game at present.

And the Union action has affected the airline with me personally, as I chose the more expensive SQ on my trips in Sept/Oct to OZ and London, as there was concern over the continuing labor issues at QF.

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