Quoting EDICHC (Reply 148): Noble sentiments, but how do you respond when management repay that loyalty by issuing redundancy notices and shipping your job overseas? To put a work ethic into practice you need to have a job.

Everyone has to work that out for themselves. I've been made redundant - or, more factually, I've been sacked - more than once.

When I was much younger, I would do whatever it took to pay the rent, I've never taken the dole and I've worked in a hospital mortuary laying out bodies. I've never worked in a job where I had lifetime job security, except for a period of about four years when I worked for the old NZBC. I found I preferred the hurly-burly of the free market.

But since this is about Qantas, how many times does redundancy happen, how many jobs do get shipped overseas? I'm aware of the 1000 number and it will be tough for those people - I know how tough it can be - but I can't see that a commercial corporation can do anything other than strive to be profitable.

I think the two concepts are completely odds with each. Great corporations, great industries, that people thought would last forever, have gone bust.

mariner

Re: QF and unions should sort it out for themselves with the Federal Government intervening.

If that had happened, we would have had a lock out and possible end of QF. Possibly, the A380 flying would have remained as those are on different contracts.

Quoting mariner (Reply 150): When I was much younger, I would do whatever it took to pay the rent, I've never taken the dole and I've worked in a hospital mortuary laying out bodies. I've never worked in a job where I had lifetime job security, except for a period of about four years when I worked for the old NZBC. I found I preferred the hurly-burly of the free market.

That is of course your lifestyle choice, but career changes are not always easy or possible. Take for example a QF pilot or engineer of 15 years service. A considerable level of time & money to gain qualification and employment with a company that when privatised, supposedly had certain safeguards. Now these safeguards are being bypassed and yet there are those here flaming the unions concerned for trying to prtect the interests of thier members, which is a trade unions raison d'etre. Would those same persons be quite so vitrioloic if it was their jobs disappearing of into the sunset? I think not.

Quoting EDICHC (Reply 152): Now these safeguards are being bypassed and yet there are those here flaming the unions concerned for trying to prtect the interests of thier members, which is a trade unions raison d'etre. Would those same persons be quite so vitrioloic if it was their jobs disappearing of into the sunset? I think not.

I don't flame the unions for trying to protect them. I think that is what the unions should be doing, their raison d'etre, as you say.

My concern - throughout all this - is that I think the union played this badly and I think they have seriously under-estimated Mr. Joyce.

I don't know what the answer is, I'm not a union leader, but in a sense, and given that there are rumors of Holden outsourcing, this is the conversation that Australia has to have with itself.

It won't be just Qantas and it won't be just Mr. Joyce.

mariner

Can we please stop discussing Alan Joyce's nationality and his sexuality, of which I was unaware til Mariner raised it.

This thread is important, because we are witnessing a situation in which an airline decides that it is happy to attack it's workforce and customers in a bid to cut costs.

They believe that they will end up with a leaner, more competitive airline. Others believe that in disrupting their own customers and driving the government into bed with Virgin that Qantas management have caused irreparable harm.

By all means discuss those issues. But there is no place for discussing nationality or sexuality in this thread.

In my opinion, the fact that Joyce is a homosexual Irishman has had precisely zero impact on events. But the fact that he is frightened of a mining bully on the Board and doesn't understand labour relations or government relations goes a long way to explaining events.

So please, stick to the real issues.

Quoting koruman (Reply 154): In my opinion, the fact that Joyce is a homosexual Irishman has had precisely zero impact on events.

If you want some clues as to how this is going to play out then - I think - you have to understand the psychology. That's how I work and I called his win from the git-go - you denied it.

Australian Aviation Thread 55 (by TN486 Oct 23 2011 in Civil Aviation)

#64 - Mariner: Unusually for me (I don't usually bet), I'll lay money that he wins.

#65 - Koruman: I won't.

mariner

Mariner, you and TruemanQLD are about the only people on this board who think that Joyce has won the battle, let alone the war.

Most of the Qantas frequent flyers with whose I have spoken this week view Joyce - and Qantas management - as having irreparably damaged the brand by their threats of industrial self-harm. And I have yet to meet anyone in Australia - even management loyalists - who don't think that Qantas' actions terminally antagonised this government and made it the airline's sworn enemy.

At yesterday's Australia-Israel Chamber of Commerce meeting it was quite comical to see John Borghetti come to the podium after practically every speaker thanked Virgin for getting them there and mocked Qantas as an unreliable alternative.

And how did Borghetti - who obviously still craves the top Qantas job, and thinks it will now be his sooner rather than later - respond? By saying "It's nice to see that half of Qantas' strategy team has come today!"

Have you studied the Fair Work Australia findings? They are unbelievably scathing of Qantas' actions. And they may end up deciding the matter in 2.5 weeks from now.

Quoting koruman (Reply 156): Mariner, you and TruemanQLD are about the only people on this board who think that Joyce has won the battle, let alone the war.

It isn't the first time in my life I've been on the outer. It's I am most at home.

I'm not claiming he has won the war - but I've read a lot of people, especially on the financial side, who disagree with your anecdotal evidence. Here's one - I have plenty more:

http://www.smh.com.au/business/qanta...ut-of-canberra-20111102-1mvts.html

"Qantas will weather turbulence coming out of Canberra"

I don't look for people who agree with me - I look for the people who don't agree with me, to gauge the strength of their case.

What amuses me is that the unions thought they were waging a conventional war - and he took it nuclear. Do you think he did not know there would be fall-out? Do you really think he is that stupid, that the BOD is that stupid?

mariner

[Edited 2011-11-03 02:24:16]

There have been no "winners" yet, just lots of losers, most of them customers.
There are reports that DJ carried 30000 extra passengers during the grounding, even if just half of them enjoyed their DJ experience, QF will have to work damn hard to get them back. Let's face it, who knows what could happen if you book with QF, you could end up with a union stop working meeting for 2 hours, or a management grounding for 2 days.......sarcasm intended.
Further to what Koruman has said, I haven't come across anyone who agrees with QF management actions last weekend, the general consensus has been permanent damage to the QF brand and a reluctance to even consider booking with QF until everything is finalised. no point risking being stranded with NO notice.

Actually yes, I do think that the likes of Joyce and Clifford are that stupid.

Clifford is used to being able to bully unskilled workers, and use them as disposable commodities. I suspect that Clifford frightens the living daylights out of Joyce and that Joyce himself has lost perspective totally and really believes that Jetstar is the success and Qantas is living off it, whereas I believe that Jetstar has been gifted vast advantages for which Qantas has been billed and then talked down.

Joyce and Clifford don't seem to understand that they have a large Australian workforce on permanent contracts. They are stuck with each other, for better or for worse. And so the management needs to devote its energies to getting that permanent workforce onside if it wants a transformation to occur.

Sadly, when Joyce and Clifford hear legal advice that a particular tactic is legal, they seem to follow it and ignore the advice of their own IR general manager Sue Bussell, who quite clearly at the Fair Work Australia hearing believed that management's approach was absurd. But then she is probably terrified of Leigh Clifford too.

As for the article in The Age, which argues that Gillard, Shorten and Combet et al in the government accept the management position. The author is living in a fantasy world. I have heard secondhand some of the things that a couple of government members have had to say about Qantas management in the last few days. What I will say is this: the most polite summing up would be contempt laced with hatred. And a desire for vengeance.

Revenge is, of course, a dish best served cold. This government has some scores to settle now with Qantas management, and when they do you can bet that John Borghetti and foreign airlines will be the main beneficiaries after the paying public, who will find themselves utterly spoilt in a post-Protecting Qantas world.

Quoting koruman (Reply 159): Actually yes, I do think that the likes of Joyce and Clifford are that stupid.

Then there is no meeting ground between us and debate becomes pointless. As in "The Art of War," I never under-estimate the opposition

And you don't like The Age - try the Canberra Times - although I suppose you'll bat that down, too.

http://www.canberratimes.com.au/news...cant-cost/2342777.aspx?storypage=0

"A victory but at a significant cost

The more realistic observation, however, is that Qantas now operates in an environment vastly different to that which existed even 15 years ago, where consumer loyalty is determined not by affection or national pride but price alone. The airline's attempts to adapt to these changed circumstances and to continue to deliver a return to shareholders have been obstructed by the unions to the point where Mr Joyce clearly saw no alternative to acting as he did."

Really, Koruman, I cannot do anything but shrug. I cannot predict the future, I can only call the odds as I see them - based on my understanding of human psychology.

mariner

[Edited 2011-11-03 03:03:25]

Mariner, the Qantas end of the market does not buy tickets on price alone, so the fundamental premise of that argument is false.

The entire raison d'être for Qantas in a world alongside Tiger, Virgin and it's own spawn Jetstar is that a profitable sector of the market will pay more in order to get more inclusions and better service.

Consumers are sophisticated. Some want a cheap Daewoo, others want a Ford, others want an Audi, others want a Mercedes and others want a Bentley.

Qantas' business model is to provide the Ford (Economy), the Audi (Premium Economy), the Mercedes (Business) and the Bentley (First), but not the Daewoo (Buy on Board, pay for checked luggage).

That's just how it is. And it makes profits, constantly.

Quoting koruman (Reply 161): Mariner, the Qantas end of the market does not buy tickets on price alone, so the fundamental premise of that argument is false.

I said you'd try and bat it down.

And I disagree. I was going to fly Qantas Business on my last trip AKL-PER, but the price was out of line. I could afford to pay it - I didn't want to pay it.

Quoting koruman (Reply 161): That's just how it is.

That is surely how you see it. I don't live in your world of absolutes.

Quoting mariner (Reply 160): And it makes profits, constantly.

Qantas Group does, yes.

mariner

[Edited 2011-11-03 03:16:58]

Quoting mariner (Reply 155): If you want some clues as to how this is going to play out then - I think - you have to understand the psychology. That's how I work and I called his win from the git-go - you denied it.

This again? You only get to call this a win in your own opinion; lots disagree with you on this so please stop presenting it as fact as this one has a long way to run.

You fall into the modern 'mission accomplished' mindset, "lets call it a win, chalk it on the wall and move on" (before the IAD's start), the continuation of the battle is another war; well it ain't, its the same hornets nest you just kicked over in the first place.

So lets see how this plays out, lets see Qantas's passenger numbers for October, November, December and January and lets see whose side arbitration comes down on.

And lets see how their staff retention figures look at the next AGM, a lot of a companies institutional wealth is contained within its fairly low level staff, they are the people who know what makes it tick, the people who can fix a customers problem in an instant because they know what buttons to press or through their interpersonal realationships with people in other departments built up over time. High staff turnover can kill what made the company popular with its customers and they just become a robotic non entity like Jetstar who demand no customer loyalty.

Quoting BoeingVista (Reply 163): This again? You only get to call this a win in your own opinion; lots disagree with you on this so please stop presenting it as fact as this one has a long way to run.

Ys, it is my opinion - isn't that why we're here? Yes, I am fully aware that many disagree with me.

Quoting BoeingVista (Reply 163): You fall into the modern 'mission accomplished' mindset, "lets call it a win, chalk it on the wall and move on" (before the IAD's start), the continuation of the battle is another war; well it ain't, its the same hornets nest you just kicked over in the first place.

If you think I see it that way, then there's I can say to dissuade you. You found a previous position of mine laughable.

Quoting BoeingVista (Reply 163): So lets see how this plays out, lets see Qantas's passenger numbers for October, November, December and January and lets see whose side arbitration comes down on.

Yep, all those things. I cannot predict the future. I can say that the Qantas share price is higher than it has been since the union industrial action began and that it did not fall on Monday, after the grounding, as so many predicted.

I have no idea what it will do tomorrow.

Quoting BoeingVista (Reply 163): High staff turnover can kill what made the company popular with its customers and they just become a robotic non entity like Jetstar who demand no customer loyalty.

I believe it makes money.

mariner

[Edited 2011-11-03 03:42:59]

Quoting mariner (Reply 164): I believe it makes money.

The accounts say that it makes money but the problem with wholly owned subsidiaries is that you never know how they are apportioning costs. Also of course Qantas has passed the profitable routes onto JQ. There are lots of ways and reasons to make one division appear more profitable than another.

Quoting mariner (Reply 164): You found a previous position of mine laughable.

Yes I did, if I remember that was on the genius level of Alan Joyce, I called it laughable because it genuinely made me laugh, thanks for bringing it up again it still makes me laugh...

Quoting jupiter2 (Reply 29): I don't think any of the "Irish" comments are meant to be derogatory or racist in anyway to Ireland or the Irish, if he had been American, English, Indian, Chilean, whatever, it is just something done is the country,

I would have to disagree. The casual racism I've seen on display in the reactions to this episode, and in general in Australia, makes me cringe. Much of it comes from the sort of person who would say, "I'm not a racist, but..."

Quoting koruman (Reply 154): But the fact that he is frightened of a mining bully on the Board and doesn't understand labour relations or government relations goes a long way to explaining events.

Doesnt understand labour relations or government relations, or just doesnt share your same views? A fairly loaded statement really. What evidence do you have that he is 'frightened of a mining bully'... how do we not know he initiated the action and went to the board with it? I dont know, and I havent seen a news article so far that says he 'is frightened of the mining bully on the board'. You want to stick to the points that matter? I agree, his sexuality and nationality doesnt bother me either, but if you want tos tick the points that matter, how about the points that are actually true? I respect your opinion on the grounding, however I disagree, and that is fine. But dont make up facts that you cannot support.

Quoting BoeingVista (Reply 163): So lets see how this plays out, lets see Qantas's passenger numbers for October, November, December and January and lets see whose side arbitration comes down on.

QF will obviously feel some short term pain in passenger numbers and financial numbers. But this has never been a short term battle. Alan Joyce took the action he did to protect QF in the long run. Though I do think many people on this forum will be surprised when the sky doesnt fall in on Qantas.

Quoting dynamicsguy (Reply 166): I would have to disagree. The casual racism I've seen on display in the reactions to this episode, and in general in Australia, makes me cringe. Much of it comes from the sort of person who would say, "I'm not a racist, but..."

I think this is just a distraction from the substantive issues here; I have stopped responding to these comments in the hope that they would just go away but alas not. The issue here is not AJ's heritage but what he did and what was done before within Qantas so that he could justify doing what he did.

If you want to discuss racism in the aerospace industry start a separate thread on it, or maybe introduce it into the Australian aviation threads if you think that it is an issue within Australia.

Quoting koruman (Reply 156): Mariner, you and TruemanQLD are about the only people on this board who think that Joyce has won the battle, let alone the war.

I think a fair argument can be made that QANTAS probably won the battle.

People on this forum may not like what happened, but the reality is there are quite a few facts about the FWA act and the state of QANTAS (due to ongoing industrial action) that in my opinion support the actions of the QANTAS board.

I for one think it was a great move. Within three days it stopped all industrial action, it evoked arbitration with the FWA and it gave QANTAS customers certainty. From where I sit, not a bad outcome!!!!

Quoting koruman (Reply 159): Clifford is used to being able to bully unskilled workers, and use them as disposable commodities. I suspect that Clifford frightens the living daylights out of Joyce and that Joyce himself has lost perspective totally and really believes that Jetstar is the success and Qantas is living off it, whereas I believe that Jetstar has been gifted vast advantages for which Qantas has been billed and then talked down.

I'm not sure this is supported by fact.

Quoting BoeingVista (Reply 163): and lets see whose side arbitration comes down on.

All the others but this most of all. From some legal opinions, the arbitration might not be nearly as constrained or predictable as some had assumed.

I am not interested in games of word-play, false naivity and dodging whole sentences in people's posts.

Singapore Air, maybe you write us some more of those wonderful trip reports from a few years ago when you flew to Vietnam or The time you had to take Cathay Pacific.

Ooops????
One of the most frequently asked questions surrounding the grounding of the Qantas fleet last Saturday afternoon was the point at which the chief executive actually made the decision to cease flying and lock out staff.

This has been exercising minds at the Australian Competition and Consumer Commission. The regulator is in the early stages of investigating whether Qantas was selling tickets and accepting payment for flights it knew would not take off.

It's much the same principle as, say, selling a washing machine that you don't have. And it carries a penalty of up to $1.1 million per offence.

''The ACCC continues to make further inquiries of Qantas, in particular concerning the circumstances surrounding the offering of tickets and acceptance of payments following the decision to ground the fleet,'' the regulator said.

Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/business/all-a...-20111103-1mxv6.html#ixzz1ceYTDJAV

Quoting BoeingVista (Reply 165): The accounts say that it makes money but the problem with wholly owned subsidiaries is that you never know how they are apportioning costs. Also of course Qantas has passed the profitable routes onto JQ. There are lots of ways and reasons to make one division appear more profitable than another.

Qantas Group is profitable - $500 million - and the only problem area is internatioal - $200 million - so I don't see how Jetstar can be unprofitable.

I'm not sure why there is this disbelief about losses on international. The CEO of Air NZ has said that they are losing $1 million a week on international and that's a very much smaller airline.

Quoting BoeingVista (Reply 165): Yes I did, if I remember that was on the genius level of Alan Joyce, I called it laughable because it genuinely made me laugh, thanks for bringing it up again it still makes me laugh...

No, sir, it wasn't that. I've never called him a genius. I don't think he is a genius.

mariner

Quoting koruman (Reply 154): This thread is important, because we are witnessing a situation in which an airline decides that it is happy to attack it's workforce and customers in a bid to cut costs.

Tha's like joining the movie half-way through and then proclaiming what it's all about. There's been more to the story leading up to this - on both sides.

Quoting koruman (Reply 156): Most of the Qantas frequent flyers with whose I have spoken this week view Joyce - and Qantas management - as having irreparably damaged the brand by their threats of industrial self-harm. And I have yet to meet anyone in Australia - even management loyalists - who don't think that Qantas' actions terminally antagonised this government and made it the airline's sworn enemy.

That's today. Tomorrow? Next month? Next year? Three years? Time heals all wounds...

Quoting BoeingVista (Reply 163): You fall into the modern 'mission accomplished' mindset, "lets call it a win, chalk it on the wall and move on" (before the IAD's start), the continuation of the battle is another war; well it ain't, its the same hornets nest you just kicked over in the first place.

Now THAT is laughable! And what's better, you then follow it up with this:

Quoting BoeingVista (Reply 163): So lets see how this plays out, lets see Qantas's passenger numbers for October, November, December and January and lets see whose side arbitration comes down on.

You seem to think this action is done and over, that the next few months somehow will represent victory or defeat in the war. "Let's call it a loss, chalk it on the wall and move on."  

Quoting BoeingVista (Reply 168): I think this is just a distraction from the substantive issues here;

You're right, of course, it is a distraction. Perhaps it should have never been inserted to begin with. However, it was, and some people don't like it. That it doesn't bother you is sort of irrelevent to those it does.

-Dave

Quoting PlanesNTrains (Reply 175): Now THAT is laughable! And what's better, you then follow it up with this:

Well its humour, not directed at you though. I am sure that Mariner will answer if he feel like it but I have no clue what you mean by that comment.

Quoting PlanesNTrains (Reply 175): You seem to think this action is done and over, that the next few months somehow will represent victory or defeat in the war. "Let's call it a loss, chalk it on the wall and move on."

No I don't. Maybe you should try reading through this thread? Or the other 2, my argument is that this has caused lasting brand damage to Qantas, you don't seem to understand my position at all.

Quoting PlanesNTrains (Reply 175): You're right, of course, it is a distraction. Perhaps it should have never been inserted to begin with. However, it was, and some people don't like it. That it doesn't bother you is sort of irrelevent to those it does.

Comments referring to this subject get removed by the mods so its kind of irrelevant posting them but go for your life if you feel the need to get your posts deleted..

Quoting koruman (Reply 156): Mariner, you and TruemanQLD are about the only people on this board who think that Joyce has won the battle, let alone the war.

Count me in as one more. While there has been a lot of bad publicity I get the feeling that high yield pax business pax ( as opposed to J class leisure travellers) are likely to have seen it as short term pain ( a couple of days of inconvenience) for long term gain ( getting rid of the continued uncertainty about whether flights would be affected by ongoing industrial action over the next couple of months).

Certainly it was unorthodox, and for those caught up in it very inconvenient, but QF have mitigated those effects somewhat by having given those pax carte blanche to re-book on other carriers in the equivalent cabin with a guarantee that any fare difference would be reimbursed.

http://www.qantas.com.au/travel/airl...uptions-flight-grounding/global/en

That is an extremely unusual step for any carrier to take, and will cost them significant amounts of money, on top of the basic grounding costs, but it shows how much they wanted to reduce the impact of this move on affected passengers.

In general, in my experience of dealing with frequently travelling corporate customers, they are often more pragmatic than occasional travellers. For the big corporate accounts this is a single business trip disrupted out of many journeys in the course of the year, as opposed to the lower yield travellers who may, unfortunately, have had their annual holiday plans badly affected ( and I sympathise with them, I would be absolutely gutted too). But let's be blunt, which group is more important to QF's bottom line and continued existence?

On the other hand, there are downsides, the underlying dispute has not yet been resolved and I suspect the outcome of the arbitration process will leave all parties feeling hard done by ( but at least it will give closure) , and, more importantly, it has further soured QF's already strained relationship with it's employees. The long term effects of this cannot be underestimated... but neither could the long term effects of ongoing disruption to schedules and reliability. When gangrene is setting in drastic action, as much as it may hurt, is called for.

Quoting koruman (Reply 154): In my opinion, the fact that Joyce is a homosexual Irishman has had precisely zero impact on events

Finally! A voice of sense!

Quoting koruman (Reply 156): At yesterday's Australia-Israel Chamber of Commerce meeting it was quite comical to see John Borghetti come to the podium after practically every speaker thanked Virgin for getting them there and mocked Qantas as an unreliable alternative.

I think people may be underestimating the Public's willingness to move on. In both Ireland and the UK, customers consistently demonstrate that they move on from this kind of industrial strife. Sure, they are angry for a few weeks. But they get on with it.... Aerlingus tried something similar a few months ago. People went back to them.

BA have been dogged by strikes for the last few years - there has been no discernable effects on their passenger carryings. Sure, people whinge - but they go back to whoever provides them with the product they want.

Quoting BoeingVista (Reply 176): Comments referring to this subject get removed by the mods so its kind of irrelevant posting them but go for your life if you feel the need to get your posts deleted..

Deleted for???? I'm not exactly clear on what I said that would be a problem to anyone other than perhaps yourself.

Regardless, we are nearly 200 posts into this third thread, and while I haven't read every_single_post, I've read most. If I'm mischaracterizing your comments, my apologies. However, I find that on a broader basis I simply disagree with some of your positions.

-Dave

Quoting Baroque (Reply 136): More or less, GOOD GRIEF but thanks for the (I think) unwelcome information!! And there were at least two spectacular ones before that and before the T900 failure. About all I can say is WTF. Maybe CASA should get a fit of the AJs and act a bit more swiftly?? That is distinctly not nice.

Just watching the Senate hearings into Qantas, this exact issue has just been raised by the aircraft engineers, Xenophon has asked for further details on RB211 failures so that he can put them to CASA to establish what they consider to be an acceptable failure rate. Apparently the issue is an IPT blade 6 failure.

Best quote I've seen so far from ABC:
"Mike:
It took Aer Lingus 5 years to recover from Joyce. Ansett never recovered."

Quoting BoeingVista (Reply 180): Just watching the Senate hearings into Qantas, this exact issue has just been raised by the aircraft engineers, Xenophon has asked for further details on RB211 failures so that he can put them to CASA to establish what they consider to be an acceptable failure rate. Apparently the issue is an IPT blade 6 failure.

Bugger, just missed it taking Mrs Baroque to town. Probably be repeated, but you remind me to switch on 24. AJ had best watch or his feral Greek will prove a bit more than painful!

No doubt the engineers will be supplying lists of questions and this time no Asher problems.

You are probably best off if Nick X is NOT on your case!

Whatever is wrong in the IPTs? Between the T900 and the RB211s and was that not the bit that went mad on the T1000 test? Wonder which oil system went on QF31 today. Still giggling over Stephen Fry's interview about a night in the jungle on Lateline last night. No doubt he can add now another to his stock of funny anecdotes courtesy of QF.

It is going to take a while to even begin to score the Senate hearings. I gather there are a bunch of questions put on notice.

Wonder if the commercial arm of the ABC will think about putting out a DVD of the hearings!

PS if Getup are the Hitler Youth of the Greens, what is Nick Xenophon going to be called? Note to the Liberal Party, best stay away from Godwin's Law in future.

Quoting kiwiandrew (Reply 177): In general, in my experience of dealing with frequently travelling corporate customers, they are often more pragmatic than occasional travellers.

  

Agree completely. You will normally find the Business travel is far more understanding of any disruption. Given that the business traveller flies far more often, they are generally a lot more savvy about the causes of delays, technical problems, and yes, even industrial unrest. They are also generally far more versed in what airline practice is in terms of re-accomodating them.

Quoting shamrock604 (Reply 183): Quoting kiwiandrew (Reply 177): In general, in my experience of dealing with frequently travelling corporate customers, they are often more pragmatic than occasional travellers. Agree completely. You will normally find the Business travel is far more understanding of any disruption. Given that the business traveller flies far more often, they are generally a lot more savvy about the causes of delays, technical problems, and yes, even industrial unrest. They are also generally far more versed in what airline practice is in terms of re-accomodating them.

And the largest QF corporate customer would be??? Might it be the Federal Government, you know the one that is spitting chips about the grounding?

Quoting Zkpilot (Reply 181): Best quote I've seen so far from ABC: "Mike: It took Aer Lingus 5 years to recover from Joyce. Ansett never recovered."

You can't be serious. That is nothing more than emotionally charge bile.
You don't think the fact that Ansett had too many aircraft types (thank you peter ables)
had outdated workpractices (3 crew 767s anybody?) too lower cabin configurations (737-300s with
only 105-110 seats, nowhere near the design capacity, even with the same number of premium
seats as other airlines). 2 inflight magazines, (what on earth was the justification for that?)
too heavily crewed aircraft, full tray service on domestic (nice touch but they could have had the same
food cheaper on other arrangements), in fact, a year after the 'real' ansett failed, not that tesna excuse
of a thing to extort money out of the government, (never miss the opportunity a good crisis presents - sorry
it didn't work mr Fox) Virgin carried the same amount of PAX that ansett carried in its final year, on 1/3 of the aircraft
and 1/3rd of the staff. That in itself speaks huge huge volumes. Ansett's unions had a lot to answer for, for their
part in that failure because they helped leave the carrier hugely inefficient. And even in its dying hours, when
QF offered to take over the A320 fleet, with pilots and FA's, Greg Combet stood infront of the media and refused
unless All ansett staff, including ground staff, would be included. Well that was smart wasn't it now? Are you really
gonna blame AJ for all of that? Those things all helped the fall. The truth was Ansett's unions believed the carrier
would never be allowed to fail. They were about to get a nasty lesson in market economics. They had flight attendants being paid more than dentists! I mean come on! What should have happened were drastic pay cuts, the fleet reduced to just 2 or 3 types and it convert itself into a much smaller shuttle
operation based around the A320 and A321, and probably one large widebody for long haul. Then, and only then,
it might have survived. But do you think in a million years the unions would have agreed to this? Previous Ansett management were incompetent in terms of allowing costs to get way out of control while they didn't have any serious competitive threat to 'keep the peace'. The later management had their hands tied behind their back and couldn't effectively address the problem.

Quoting kiwiandrew (Reply 177): Quoting koruman (Reply 156): Mariner, you and TruemanQLD are about the only people on this board who think that Joyce has won the battle, let alone the war. Count me in as one more.

Count me in Also as one more. AJ may in the short term now be forced to pay slightly higher wages than he was offering, but in the longer term, and Fair Work Australia can't impose conditions that aren't going to be relating directly to the employment of the staff in question. And they certainly won't be able to impose conditions as to where and how this company can invest abroad. No way in hell. Therefore, as I see it, AJ may have some issues on the domestic front but the key thing he was fighting for...that is, not agreeing to any conditions on future investments/outsourcing/management decisions has been won.

Quoting mariner (Reply 174): I'm not sure why there is this disbelief about losses on international. The CEO of Air NZ has said that they are losing $1 million a week on international and that's a very much smaller airline.

Very well said. Now thing of it in terms of loss per long haul aircraft. NZ is running its long haul at a bigger loss than QF.

Quoting Lufthansa (Reply 185): And even in its dying hours, when QF offered to take over the A320 fleet, with pilots and FA's, Greg Combet stood infront of the media and refused unless All ansett staff, including ground staff, would be included.

I don't remember this. Sounds like a shocker!

Quoting koruman (Reply 156): Mariner, you and TruemanQLD are about the only people on this board who think that Joyce has won the battle, let alone the war.

I'd also say that he's won the battle. The war might be a different matter though.

Quoting mariner (Reply 164): I can say that the Qantas share price is higher than it has been since the union industrial action began and that it did not fall on Monday, after the grounding, as so many predicted.

And the shares are up 2% today, with the Senate hearings.

I thought it was all a bit of a fizz, I was expecting some real fireworks - although I missed Senator Xenophon's turn - xenophobia, I imagine.

I thought Senator Brown came on like an old headmaster of mine, telling me that I had been a very naughty boy and should go to bed without any dinner.

The only real spark, I thought, was between Mr. Joyce and that predictable Senator Cameron.

From here on in, I suppose it will all play out behind closed doors - I see Ben Sanidlands is saying the unions claim to have "secret emails."

As so often in life, everyone will take from it all what they want to take from it all.

mariner

Some fascinating quotes from "Deal then no deal: how Qantas stranded Labor", which is the Australian Financial Review's front page number two story today

http://afr.com/p/national/deal_then_...as_stranded_2uwoHEXdGscxJcIek0nMIN

"when senior Gillard ministers convened on Saturday afternoon........it was hard to say whether anger or shock at Qantas' decision to ground it's fleet was greater"

"the fact that senior cabinet minister Anthony Albanese had personally intervened over the previous couple of weeks to broker a deal between Qantas and the TWU dealing directly with Alan Joyce and TWU National Secretary Tony Sheldon only made the shock worse".

"this is a story of a sometimes badly-played industrial drama that has shifted the compass of the debate about industrial relations and been devastating for the Qantas brand"

"Qantas did not want the dispute to go to Fair Work Australia.........it wanted the government to use Section 31 of the Fair Work Act to wind up the dispute immediately".

Quoting mariner (Reply 187): As so often in life, everyone will take from it all what they want to take from it all.

How can we know what was said until we see what the Senate writes, to quote an old saying about minutes.

The other issue we cannot judge for a while, is how satisfied or more angry some of the players were.

Parliaments do have limitations to their powers, but usually only in the longer run.

However good QFs plans were and are, they would have found them easier to implement had they not got quite a few pollies distinctly offside. It is one thing for Twiggy Forrest not to care how he upsets governments, especially when he has two to chose from, but quite a different matter for QF to do likewise. QF cannot ignore the Feds.

Quoting koruman (Reply 188): Some fascinating quotes from "Deal then no deal: how Qantas stranded Labor", which is the Australian Financial Review's front page number two story today http://afr.com/p/national/deal_then_...as_stranded_2uwoHEXdGscxJcIek0nMIN

Most especially this bit, which more or less sets the stage for the atmospherics in the Senate hearing. Except copying out of that link keeps giving ©afr.com and other garbage. How did you get a clean copy koruman?
Qantas has been arguing that it had warned anyone who would listen for that the dispute was believed likely to get into trouble..

©afr.com But having ©afr.com about industria brokered face-to-face option meetings around. with Joyce were the dispute rates whether and when believed government Sheldon, Albanese ©afr.com had Union, every reason ©afr.com ©afr.com to to other tell ©afr.com his colleagues ©afr.com that, cricket argued far ©afr.com Fair Not from ©afr.com Minister the deteriorating, the ©afr.com the dispute ©afr.com was government on its way ©afr.com to to settlement.

You could call it a bad case oncognitive dissonance all round,” one close observer said this week

The AFR always used to be the best guide to these things before it vanished behind its firewall.

Quoting Lufthansa (Reply 185): Then, and only then, it might have survived

Actually it might have survived if Qantas was not allowed to veto Singapore Airlines buying it.

I don't expect any adverse consequences of these Senate hearings.

At present the government is constrained in the lower house by its lack of a majority after industrial relations was not on the agenda for the hung 2010 parliament.

But Labor can now return to the Qantas lockout whenever it wants prior to the next election, and return IR and the spectre of Work Choices to the top of the agenda. Clifford and Joyce have basically handed a parachute to a government which faced possible defeat. And if that allows a 3% swing to Labor from the last election, Labor will return with a majority government.

And that is when I would anticipate trouble from Qantas, especially as DIMA could potentially terminate the use of foreign crews without Australian Work permits many flights on which they already operate. And, I'm advised, that would not require any act of parliament.

Quoting Baroque (Reply 182): It is going to take a while to even begin to score the Senate hearings. I gather there are a bunch of questions put on notice.

It will take at least a few days to post the transcripts to the web site.

Quoting koruman (Reply 192): I don't expect any adverse consequences of these Senate hearings.

When you see who the sponsers are for the bill, and the terms of reference, I think it could be fair to say that the government have given senators X and B the chance to have a play around and feel important, and keep out of their hair.

Quoting Baroque (Reply 189): The other issue we cannot judge for a while, is how satisfied or more angry some of the players were.

I'm not attempting to judge or predict anything. I've done my dash.

I would have thought the last thing the Feds would want to do is to be seen cause more harm to Qantas, however much some of them might want Mr. Joyce's head on a plate.

But that's just me.

I thought Mr. Joyce played one good ace regarding the proposed legislation, but I don't know if it was an ace of trumps. As I've said, I really don't care which way the future goes - competitive airline or subsidized icon - but I think a hybrid would be really sad.

mariner

Quoting koruman (Reply 192): And that is when I would anticipate trouble from Qantas, especially as DIMA could potentially terminate the use of foreign crews without Australian Work permits many flights on which they already operate. And, I'm advised, that would not require any act of parliament.

Hasn't it already been pointed out that would violate ICAO treaties. Or are you saying that it wouldn't!?

Yes, I am.

It is the sovereign right of any country to determine whether foreign nationals can work in that country. Australia's government cannot stop a Thai national being employed to crew a flight between Thailand and Australia. But it can prevent that worker from operating a domestic flight in Australia, or a flight from Australia to a third country.

@BV. It appears CASA will be called to the Senate committee in ??2 weeks. So we might learn more of engines and mx at that time.

Hopefully CASA at least will be viewed as a neutral party. Between one side attacking AJ and tother attacking the Onions, not all that helpful. Maybe the answers to the questions on notice will be more revealing.

Wonder which is worse, being nominated at Tricky D or J R McCarthy? I suppose being the HY of the Greens tops the charts so far!

Leave those onions alone  

http://www.smh.com.au/travel/travel-...-qantas-unions-20111104-1n02h.html

Suggests a Cabinet minister was/is not best pleased. That seems to contrast with, or be a change to, Government support for the Asian ventures.

http://www.crikey.com.au/2011/11/04/...nate-grilling-on-qantas-grounding/

The chairman of the Senate Committee Senator Glenn Serle said there were a huge number of questions arising from Joyce’s testimony and Cameron said he was going to study the Hansard very carefully to frame those that would be pursued when a return session with the Qantas CEO was scheduled.

Like the Murdochs with the HoC, there will be a repeat performance. Sen Serle must be a man after my own heart, "how can I know what I said until I see what is written"?

In the opening stages of today’s inquiry into Still Call Australia Home amendments to the Qantas Sale Act of 1992 Joyce said the Qantas group would have to be split up and Jetstar and its Asia interests sold if the legislation is amended as proposed. However he told the chairman, Senator Glenn Sterle, that Qantas is not considering or planning to break up the airline group and sell off some assets and it has not been discussed at board level.

The amendments would stop Qantas using subsidiary investments to transfer assets offshore to some extent, and would outlaw the rotation of Asia based flight crews through domestic services.

Grilled by Serle about the illegality of Qantas continuing to sell tickets after it had decided to ground the fleet, Joyce briefly laughed and said it was a mistake but was pulled up by Serle who said “it was not a little mistake”.

Serle expressed incredulity that Qantas did not discover its mistake in continuing to illegally sell tickets after its decision to ground the fleet until 8.30pm, three-and-a-half hours after the grounding that left it with no real product to sell (contrary to law).

Joyce also insisted that Qantas did not book any more rooms than usual in hotels around the world in the four days before the snap grounding decision than normal, and disputed that letters to 30,000 Qantas staff concerning the shutdown had been printed or couriers booked, days in advance.
.....
Serle asked if it was normal for Qantas to book several thousand hotel rooms in advance for a Saturday night in Singapore or Los Angeles, and Joyce indicated that it was. He undertook to provide written proof as to when the Qantas hotel rooms were booked in both ports, when the notifications were printed and when the couriers were engaged.
....
In a late development the committee will go in camera shortly to see emails to Qantas employees confirming that management had planned the grounding more than a week before Joyce claims to have woken up and taken a spontaneous decision.

More to come evidently.

Quoting bennett123 (Reply 198): Leave those onions alone

Not much on the dealings with the onions - so far! So hard to tell how much eye watering there will be, or even whose eyes will be watering in the end.

This could be because it was less interesting (although BV seems to have seen interesting exchanges) but those exchanges were later in the day so probably more difficult to meet TV and newspaper deadlines for that material. And that para from Sandilands suggests there was even more going on late in the day, and of course we are not going to see a lot of the in camera session!! But I guess it will be leaked eventually - the onion skins might then be said to have been peeled?