ariis
Topic Author
Posts: 390
Joined: Wed Sep 22, 2004 8:04 am

Intercontinental Flights Out Of Berlin-Brandenburg

Mon Oct 31, 2011 7:12 pm

Hi there!

What are the (most up-to-date) planned routes out of BER? I am mostly interested in intercontinental flights. I would appreciate if you could also indicate planned frequency and the carrier name wherever possible.

Thanks in advance!

FAO
FAO - Flight Activities Officer
 
luckyone
Posts: 2842
Joined: Thu Aug 21, 2008 1:50 pm

RE: Intercontinental Flights Out Of Berlin-Brandenburg

Mon Oct 31, 2011 7:22 pm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berlin_..._Airport#Airlines_and_destinations

Gives a list of all airlines currently serving both Berlin airports.
 
jfk777
Posts: 7083
Joined: Tue Aug 22, 2006 7:23 am

RE: Intercontinental Flights Out Of Berlin-Brandenburg

Mon Oct 31, 2011 7:47 pm

With Lufthansa having 2 hubs and long haul from Dusseldorf are they going to have long haul from BBD ? IS Air Berlin going to hub its namesake city ?
 
steman
Posts: 1575
Joined: Wed Aug 09, 2000 4:55 pm

RE: Intercontinental Flights Out Of Berlin-Brandenburg

Tue Nov 01, 2011 9:34 am

It has been said many times over in this same forum: LH is not going to have long haul routes ex BER.
They won´t even build up their presence to a hub operations there. Currently they have less than 10 routes out of TXL (I believe 7, excluding Star Alliance partners routes). They might just increase the number of these.

BER will have very few long haul destinations, at least for the first few years.
If the economy in the city keeps on growing/diversifying we might expect more to come.
A big role will be played by Air Berlin of course. If they will be successful in their restructuring plans, we might see new long range routes opened from BER, especially when the 787s will be delivered.
In the medium term, if Air Berlin turns around it´s situation, I could see a tie up with other oneworld partners (CX to HKG, AA to the US for example) and BER could become a oneworld hub in Central Europe.
I also believe that IAG (BA-IB) might be interested in taking a stake if not a full take over of a restructured and profitable Air Berlin, building it up BER as its third European stronghold after LHR and MAD.

In any case BER will never be a big hub with lots of intercontinental flights like FRA, CDG or even MUC
I´d say BER will be a big busy airport with a good mix of low cost and legacy carriers offering a wide range of short and medium haul destinations plus a bunch of long haul ones, especially with oneworld

There is a big potential for the development of BER, being relatively far from Europe´s biggest hubs and being a brand new airport in a dynamic city which keeps on growing in many respects. But it will never be, not for the foreseeable future, a big intercontinental hub.
 
fraT
Posts: 1101
Joined: Wed Oct 01, 2003 4:32 am

RE: Intercontinental Flights Out Of Berlin-Brandenburg

Tue Nov 01, 2011 11:30 am

There is not much to add to stemans post.

AB currently flies from TXL to JFK, MIA, DXB, BKK, HKT, SDO, VRA and will start LAX in May. Lot's of those destinations are not daily.
Additionally there is CO/UA flying to EWR. DL suspended it's own JFK service for the winter and nobody knows whether they will come back for the summer.

AB has big plans for BER but the real question is whether they will be able to achieve those goals. They were not able to post a profit in recent years and there is no sign of a turnaround despite a new CEO. They still have another Whub" for longhaul flights in DUS which has a much bigger catchment area than BER. So there are a lot of question marks.

Not sure if other airlines will fly to the new airport. AA might be a candidate as they reduced their presence in FRA drastically over the last couple of years. Now they could use ABs network for feeding. I doubt that QF and CX will fly to BER in the next couple of years, especially with the global economy going down again.
 
PanHAM
Posts: 9731
Joined: Fri May 06, 2005 6:44 pm

RE: Intercontinental Flights Out Of Berlin-Brandenburg

Tue Nov 01, 2011 11:42 am

Same as with a fast food outlet, the 3 basic requirements for a hub are location., location and location.

BER is a bad location, it is not central, rather remote, does have a small catchment area, is not inside the "blue banana". All this has been said in numerous threads about the subject before. Unfortunately, on top of all the disadvantages, AB is a weak hub carrier which at the level they are, has too many hubs.

CX will not move, they are heavy cargo based and the music still plays at FRA and even if FRA should be severaly damaged by the curfew, BER would be no alternative. The connectivity for QF at BER is not that good either.
Was Erlauben Erdogan!!!
 
pelican
Posts: 2431
Joined: Mon Apr 05, 2004 9:51 pm

RE: Intercontinental Flights Out Of Berlin-Brandenburg

Tue Nov 01, 2011 12:19 pm

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 5):
Same as with a fast food outlet, the 3 basic requirements for a hub are location., location and location.

BER is a bad location, it is not central, rather remote, does have a small catchment area, is not inside the "blue banana". All this has been said in numerous threads about the subject before. Unfortunately, on top of all the disadvantages, AB is a weak hub carrier which at the level they are, has too many hubs.

I doubt this. Berlins problem is neither location - which is rather good (blue banana is only one factor, there are hubs like MAD or CDG which are not in it) - nor the the size of the catchment area, which is more than big enough for a hub, even bigger than Munich's. The reason, as stated many times on this site, is the weakness of the regions economy and the lack of big (international) business as well as the competition from two established hubs FRA and MUC and therefore not much interest of big carriers.

pelican
 
PanHAM
Posts: 9731
Joined: Fri May 06, 2005 6:44 pm

RE: Intercontinental Flights Out Of Berlin-Brandenburg

Tue Nov 01, 2011 12:56 pm

Quoting pelican (Reply 6):
The reason, as stated many times on this site, is the weakness of the regions economy and the lack of big (international) business as well as the competition from two

which I myself have said many times, don't always have to repeat myself. Concerning the catchment area, te median income in Berlin is much lower than MUC and that is an important factor as well and although PAR is not inside the blue banana it is more than twice the size of BER which is the capital of a centralized state whereas BER is the capital of a polycentric state. MAD is not such a good hub location either, except for South America. PMI is amuch more valuable asset for AB.

.
Was Erlauben Erdogan!!!
 
steman
Posts: 1575
Joined: Wed Aug 09, 2000 4:55 pm

RE: Intercontinental Flights Out Of Berlin-Brandenburg

Tue Nov 01, 2011 1:02 pm

BER could actually become a bit like FCO or BCN, a big airport with lots of traffic mainly O&D thanks to the city it serves.
Berlin is one of the most visited cities in Europe. I think it ranks N.3 after London and Paris
It is also developing as a Fair Center (Messe) and it has several internationally recognized events like the Film Festival, the Biennale and more.
I also believe that the economy of the city and the region will grow and it will attract more business.
BER will play a big role in it, having the right infrastructure being a big boost for businesses.
Interesting times ahead for this great city
I am sure more intercontinental destinations will come but much depend on factors that have nothing to do with BER or Berlin. The weakness of some if not all US Carriers is one factor, as well as potential future crisis in the Middle/Far East or a renewed economic crisis.
Being mainly a leisure destination, carriers won´t open up routes if the front of the cabin (or the belly as PanHAM pointed out) does not fill up nicely.
We just have to wait and see.

S
 
User avatar
Buyantukhaa
Posts: 2319
Joined: Thu May 13, 2004 5:33 am

RE: Intercontinental Flights Out Of Berlin-Brandenburg

Tue Nov 01, 2011 2:23 pm

My knowledge on bananas may be limited, but what do you guys mean with a blue banana?!
I scratch my head, therefore I am.
 
AustrianZRH
Posts: 853
Joined: Tue Aug 07, 2007 5:55 pm

RE: Intercontinental Flights Out Of Berlin-Brandenburg

Tue Nov 01, 2011 2:25 pm

Quoting buyantukhaa (Reply 9):
what do you guys mean with a blue banana?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blue_Banana
WARNING! The post above should be taken with a grain of salt! Furthermore, it may be slightly biased towards A.
 
PanHAM
Posts: 9731
Joined: Fri May 06, 2005 6:44 pm

RE: Intercontinental Flights Out Of Berlin-Brandenburg

Tue Nov 01, 2011 2:29 pm

The "blue banana" is a region that stretches from the UK Midlands incldg MAN, BHX and LON via the Dutch "Randstad" in Holland (that is RTM,AMS,Utrecht and everything between) and Belgium via the Rhine-Ruhr area (DUS, CGN) FA, STR, Switzerland to northern Italy including MIL and GOA. It is the European backbone, one of the richest regions on planet.

On the map it looks like a banana.
Was Erlauben Erdogan!!!
 
ariis
Topic Author
Posts: 390
Joined: Wed Sep 22, 2004 8:04 am

RE: Intercontinental Flights Out Of Berlin-Brandenburg

Tue Nov 01, 2011 4:01 pm

Thanks guys for all the input!

Best regards

FAO
FAO - Flight Activities Officer
 
panamair
Posts: 4110
Joined: Fri Oct 12, 2001 2:24 am

RE: Intercontinental Flights Out Of Berlin-Brandenburg

Tue Nov 01, 2011 4:26 pm

Quoting frat (Reply 4):
DL suspended it's own JFK service for the winter and nobody knows whether they will come back for the summer.

Currently, DL has loaded the JFK-BER flight for next June. At first, it was supposed to resume on June 1 (from JFK), but since BER's official opening date is June 3, they have rescheduled the re-start for June 2 (doesn't make sense to go back to TXL for just one day!) from JFK.
 
luckyone
Posts: 2842
Joined: Thu Aug 21, 2008 1:50 pm

RE: Intercontinental Flights Out Of Berlin-Brandenburg

Tue Nov 01, 2011 4:54 pm

Quoting panamair (Reply 13):
Currently, DL has loaded the JFK-BER flight for next June. At first, it was supposed to resume on June 1 (from JFK), but since BER's official opening date is June 3, they have rescheduled the re-start for June 2 (doesn't make sense to go back to TXL for just one day!) from JFK.

Leaving or arriving June 2? If it leaves JFK 2 June it will arrive at the new Berlin airport on 3 June.
 
panamair
Posts: 4110
Joined: Fri Oct 12, 2001 2:24 am

RE: Intercontinental Flights Out Of Berlin-Brandenburg

Tue Nov 01, 2011 4:57 pm

Quoting luckyone (Reply 14):
Leaving or arriving June 2? If it leaves JFK 2 June it will arrive at the new Berlin airport on 3 June.

Leaving JFK on June 2, arriving BER on June 3 (BER's scheduled first day of operation).
 
luckyone
Posts: 2842
Joined: Thu Aug 21, 2008 1:50 pm

RE: Intercontinental Flights Out Of Berlin-Brandenburg

Tue Nov 01, 2011 5:22 pm

Quoting panamair (Reply 15):
Leaving JFK on June 2, arriving BER on June 3 (BER's scheduled first day of operation).

I think I misunderstood your initial post, haha. My bad.
 
pelican
Posts: 2431
Joined: Mon Apr 05, 2004 9:51 pm

RE: Intercontinental Flights Out Of Berlin-Brandenburg

Tue Nov 01, 2011 7:29 pm

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 7):
which I myself have said many times, don't always have to repeat myself.

Indeed, you said it yourself many times and because the argument is still valid you should repeat yourself instead of looking for new points.

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 7):
Concerning the catchment area, te median income in Berlin is much lower than MUC

I'm not sure whether median income is an important factor. How important are leisure trips for high yield traffic? I would argue that (big) business is much more important for high yield traffic, or am I totally off here? And (but I guess that's something I don't need to point out to you) business is important for cargo.

Quoting Steman (Reply 8):
I also believe that the economy of the city and the region will grow and it will attract more business.
Quoting PanHAM (Reply 7):
as well and although PAR is not inside the blue banana it is more than twice the size of BER which is the capital of a centralized state whereas BER is the capital of a polycentric state.

The development of Dresden and Leipzig (aka the wider region) looks also promising, they should add potential for BER. It's a region which is often overlooked. It's still the second biggest metropolitan area in Germany (bigger than Berlin, or Rhine-Main or Munich). Sure it has lost much importance after WW II, but it has still some potential. Hamburg and Hannover (both important metropolitan areas) are also close enough to BER to be part of the wider catchment area. And Szczecin is surely part of the catchment area of BER. Hence my argument that BER's location is quite good.
The reason for BER's rather limited potential is the lack of business and the competion from two well established hubs.

The blue banana, while it's still a good concept, is quite old. It was developed when the Iron Curtain was still closed. Therfore it doesn't account for the European West-East developments.

pelican
 
something
Posts: 1239
Joined: Fri May 13, 2011 5:29 pm

RE: Intercontinental Flights Out Of Berlin-Brandenburg

Tue Nov 01, 2011 7:42 pm

I expected something completely different when I opened this thread. Just yesterday, Air Berlin's newly appointed CEO Hartmut Mehdorn gave his first public interview in his new capacity and elaborated on his future plans for Air Berlin at BER. Incidentally, LH also announced today that coming Wednesday they will unveil their plans for Berlin's new airport, but have disclosed no details as yet and left everything open to speculation at this point.

Air Berlin (loose translation):

Quote:
In wie weit weitere interkontinentale Langstreckenverbindungen in das Air-Berlin-Drehkreuz am neuen Hauptstadtflughafen integriert würden, sei noch offen. "Die Intention, mehr internationale Verbindungen nach Berlin zu holen, ist da. Das wollen wir", so Mehdorn. Für die Langstrecke komme es darauf an, in wie weit Air Berlin mit seinem Deutschland- und Europanetz genügend Passagiere über Berlin generieren könne, um eigene Langstreckenflugzeuge beziehungsweise die Maschinen der Oneworldpartner zu füllen.

No final decision about future integration of new long haul routes at Air Berlin capital-hub has been made yet. ''We intend to bring more international routes to Berlin. That's our goal'', said Mehdorn. It will all depend on how successfully Air Berlin's Germany and Europe network will be able to generate transit passengers, to fill our own [Air Berlin's] or the airplanes of One-World-partner airlines.


Lufthansa (equally loose)

Quote:
Lufthansa-Passage-Vorstand Carsten Spohr will am kommenden Mittwoch (9. November) die Strategie des Konzerns am künftigen Hauptstadtflughafen Berlin Brandenburg (BER) vorstellen. Ein Projektteam habe in den vergangenen neun Monaten ein Konzept erarbeitet, mit dem Lufthansa die Präsenz in ihrer „Geburtsstadt“ im Zusammenspiel mit den Airlines des Lufthansa-Verbunds deutlich ausbauen werde. [...] Ziel sei es, den Abstand zum in Berlin dominierenden Konkurrenten Air Berlin zu verkürzen. Ein weiteres Langstrecken-Drehkreuz werde aber nicht entstehen, sagte CEO Franz damals dem Nachrichtensender n-tv.

Lufthansa-Passage-charman Carsten Spohr will be announcing Lufthansa's strategy for the future capital airport next Wednesday, November 9th. For the past 9 months, a specialist team has worked out a concept that will significantly increase Lufthansa's presence in their ''birth place'' in cooperation with their alliance partners. [...] Lufthansa looks to tighten the gap between them and market leader Air Berlin. ''But Lufthansa is not going to create another long-haul hub'', said CEO Franz at the general assembly last May.

Links only in dschörman, tzorry folks:

http://www.airliners.de/management/s...aut-hauptstadt-drehkreuz-aus/25577
http://www.airliners.de/management/s...-stellt-berlin-strategie-vor/25589


My own two cents.. Mehdorn has no idea wtf he's doing. Why can't they just focus on DUS and PMI and do what they do best? I doubt this ''a little bit of this here, and a little bit of that there'' will ever allow Air Berlin to grow its structures, develop an idendity and establish Air Berlin as what - in numbers - it already is. LH biggest enemy. OneWorld alliance or not, Air Berlin is steering right towards remaining an obscure charter airline that happens to also sell tickets on their own account.

[Edited 2011-11-01 12:46:19]
..sick of it. -K. Pilkington.
 
PanHAM
Posts: 9731
Joined: Fri May 06, 2005 6:44 pm

RE: Intercontinental Flights Out Of Berlin-Brandenburg

Tue Nov 01, 2011 7:45 pm

Quoting pelican (Reply 17):
'm not sure whether median income is an important factor. How important are leisure trips for high yield traffic? I would argue that (big) business is much more important for high yield traffic, or am I totally off here? And (but I guess that's something I don't need to point out to you) business is important for cargo.

The median income is an important factor. You have to understand it that way - people with less income cannot afford to fly at all. The higher the average the moe potential air travellers you have and business is not always high yield. A lot of companies are low budget. As to cargo in a market like BER, most of it is trucked to LEJ and FRA.

BTW, LH will introduce a new concept for BER tomorrow, we'll be much wiser in a few hours.
Was Erlauben Erdogan!!!
 
dazeflight
Posts: 484
Joined: Tue Jun 22, 1999 1:32 am

RE: Intercontinental Flights Out Of Berlin-Brandenburg

Tue Nov 01, 2011 8:55 pm

Quoting something (Reply 18):
My own two cents.. Mehdorn has no idea wtf he's doing. Why can't they just focus on DUS and PMI and do what they do best? I doubt this ''a little bit of this here, and a little bit of that there'' will ever allow Air Berlin to grow its structures, develop an idendity and establish Air Berlin as what - in numbers - it already is. LH biggest enemy. OneWorld alliance or not, Air Berlin is steering right towards remaining an obscure charter airline that happens to also sell tickets on their own account.

AB grew from 2 to almost 8 Mio. passengers in TXL since 2006, has slowly started to build up connections in TXL with growing success and thus, a growing amount of transfer passengers. Mehdorn has clearly stated that they want to grow to 12-13 Mio. pasengers in 2020, equaling an above-average one-digit growth each year. Sounds like a plan to me. So, could you please explain why AB should Focus on DUS and PMI when TXL and soon BER is clearly their biggest hub and they're pretty successfull in building it up, mainly as a european hubs with some longhaul flights thrown in?

Additionally, to come back to the first posters question instead of the Berlin-is-so-shitty talk by the usual disgruntled suspects, Bejing with Hainan, Ulan Bator with Miat and Doha with Qatar haven't been named yet.
 
flyingalex
Posts: 624
Joined: Fri Jul 16, 2010 1:32 pm

RE: Intercontinental Flights Out Of Berlin-Brandenburg

Tue Nov 01, 2011 9:36 pm

Quoting pelican (Reply 17):

I'm not sure whether median income is an important factor. How important are leisure trips for high yield traffic? I would argue that (big) business is much more important for high yield traffic, or am I totally off here? And (but I guess that's something I don't need to point out to you) business is important for cargo.
Quoting PanHAM (Reply 19):
The median income is an important factor. You have to understand it that way - people with less income cannot afford to fly at all. The higher the average the moe potential air travellers you have and business is not always high yield. A lot of companies are low budget. As to cargo in a market like BER, most of it is trucked to LEJ and FRA.

Exactly. Travel is discretionary spending, and in order to travel, you need to have money left over to spend in the first place. Berlin has an unemployment rate of 12%, and most of the people who are employed have public sector jobs. There are quite a few startup companies in Berlin now, but the defining feature of startups is that they tend to be small and struggling. This all does not bode well for premium O/D traffic.

One other thing to remember is that while Berlin has a fairly large population of 4 million, a large part of its surrounding area is mostly empty space. Within a two hour radius, there are only three cities of more than 200.000 inhabitants: Magdeburg, Sczecin and Rostock - none of which is known for being an economic powerhouse.

The area is simply not strong enough economically to merit more longhaul service that it presently has. I'm not saying that this cannot change in the future, but for the moment I do not see the business case for more longhaul service at a unified Berlin airport.

Airlines cannot open routes and hope for the best - "if you build it, they will come" is an expensive maxim to operate under.
Public service announcement: "It's" = "it is". To indicate posession, write "its." Looks wrong, but it's correct grammar!
 
dazeflight
Posts: 484
Joined: Tue Jun 22, 1999 1:32 am

RE: Intercontinental Flights Out Of Berlin-Brandenburg

Wed Nov 02, 2011 12:12 am

Quoting flyingalex (Reply 21):
Exactly. Travel is discretionary spending, and in order to travel, you need to have money left over to spend in the first place. Berlin has an unemployment rate of 12%, and most of the people who are employed have public sector jobs.

Ahh, there's nothing better than a few uneducated clichés. Around 40% of Berlin's workforce is employed in the service sector, around 30% of this being public service. An amount of roughly 12% is surely not "most" of the Berlin workforce.

Quoting flyingalex (Reply 21):
Within a two hour radius, there are only three cities of more than 200.000 inhabitants: Magdeburg, Sczecin and Rostock - none of which is known for being an economic powerhouse.

If you're taking the bike, yes. If you take modern means of transport like trains and cars into account, you will reach Hamburg, Hannover, Dresden and Leipzig in less than two hours. All those being cities with more than half a million inhabitants.

The amount of false information that is being spread anytime a discussion about Berlin and BER starts over is truly staggering.
 
User avatar
Semaex
Posts: 803
Joined: Mon Nov 23, 2009 4:17 pm

RE: Intercontinental Flights Out Of Berlin-Brandenburg

Wed Nov 02, 2011 3:07 am

Just a question to the mods or site-maintanance staff, whoever is responsible:
Is it possible to change the BER code so that when scrolling over we can read the actual airport name? I guess it's about time, since there is a fair bit of discussion every once in a while on the airport and it's just proper to know its full name.
Thank you in advance.
// You know you're an aviation enthusiast if you look at your neighbour's cars and think about fleet commonality.
 
flyingalex
Posts: 624
Joined: Fri Jul 16, 2010 1:32 pm

RE: Intercontinental Flights Out Of Berlin-Brandenburg

Wed Nov 02, 2011 11:58 pm

Quoting dazeflight (Reply 22):
Ahh, there's nothing better than a few uneducated clichés. Around 40% of Berlin's workforce is employed in the service sector, around 30% of this being public service. An amount of roughly 12% is surely not "most" of the Berlin workforce.

I would tend to disagree. Going by the chart you linked to, there are were 1.685 million employed people in Berlin in 2010. Of those, 1.466 million were employed in the "Dienstleistungsbereich", the service sector. That is 87%, not 40!

I cannot deduce where you get the figure of 30% for the public sector from, but just under half of those 1.466 million are listed in the category "Öffentliche und private Dienstleister" (public and private services). I see no numbers to indicate how those 685,000 employees are split between public and private.

In the other figures, I see that 389,000 people are employed in "Handel, Gastgewerbe und Verkehr" (retail, hospitality and transport). These tend not to be overly well-paid jobs, and they are unlikely to require much overseas business travel.

And that was what my point was about: Berlin has a lot of jobs which do not pay exceptionally well, so private travel demand is weaker than elsewhere. Additionally, jobs that require business travel are rare. And to top it all off, Berlin's jobless rate is nearly twice the national average.

All this does not bode well for demand for longhaul flights from Berlin in general, and for premium demand in particular.

Quoting dazeflight (Reply 22):
If you're taking the bike, yes. If you take modern means of transport like trains and cars into account, you will reach Hamburg, Hannover, Dresden and Leipzig in less than two hours. All those being cities with more than half a million inhabitants.

Hamburg to Berlin by car is 2 hours, 40 minutes. To SXF, it's over three hours.

Hannover to Berlin by car is 2 hours, 49 minutes, to SXF it's 2 hours, 40 minutes. (This is similar to how long it takes to drive Hannover - Düsseldorf, by the way).

Leipzig to Berlin by car is 2 hours, 2 minutes, to SXF, it's 1 hour, 50 minutes.

Dresden to Berlin by car is 1 hour, 59 minutes, to SXF it's 1 hour, 41 minutes.


I'll give you Leipzig and Dresden, especially once long-distance trains run through BER. But Hamburg and Hannover have little to gain by driving to Berlin to fly somewhere. In any case, the real question is whether someone from Leipzig or Dresden would prefer to drive two hours to Berlin to fly longhaul or to take a short flight from DRS or LEJ and connect at an established hub. Similar arguments can be made for HAJ, and HAM already has longhaul flights to many popular destinations so a connection may not even be necessary.

The other thing is that premium pax will not necessarily be willing to spend two hours in the car to get to an airport. They'd be willing to pay a little more to fly from the closest airport. You can attract holiday flyers from further away by competing on price, but that is not very helpful for your flight's yields. These passengers are good for filling up the back of the bus, but they do not solve the problem of weak premium demand to/from Berlin.


As I said earlier, things evolve and the situation may be different in 10 years. But at the present time, the business case for longhaul ex-BER is weak, at least for airlines which rely on premium traffic.
Public service announcement: "It's" = "it is". To indicate posession, write "its." Looks wrong, but it's correct grammar!
 
dazeflight
Posts: 484
Joined: Tue Jun 22, 1999 1:32 am

RE: Intercontinental Flights Out Of Berlin-Brandenburg

Thu Nov 03, 2011 12:52 am

Quoting flyingalex (Reply 24):
I would tend to disagree. Going by the chart you linked to, there are were 1.685 million employed people in Berlin in 2010. Of those, 1.466 million were employed in the "Dienstleistungsbereich", the service sector. That is 87%, not 40!

I cannot deduce where you get the figure of 30% for the public sector from, but just under half of those 1.466 million are listed in the category "Öffentliche und private Dienstleister" (public and private services). I see no numbers to indicate how those 685,000 employees are split between public and private

Split up numbers are hard to find, but you should note that those 87% include financial, real estate services, commerce and so on. Surely nothing to include into a list of "public services". All public services are included in the "public and private services" figure of 681.100 employes, equaling 46%. Even if you expect 2/3rd instead of 1/3rd of those to be "public services", that's around 30%, which is not "most". As a comparison, Hessen has around the same share of people employed in financial services and a little less than 30% in the "public and private services" sector. Surely better numbers, but I don't see how that is world's apart.

Quoting flyingalex (Reply 24):
In the other figures, I see that 389,000 people are employed in "Handel, Gastgewerbe und Verkehr" (retail, hospitality and transport). These tend not to be overly well-paid jobs, and they are unlikely to require much overseas business travel.

Transport includes the worldwide headquarter of Bombardier Transportation as well as of Deutsche Bahn. It's not all about bus drivers.

Quoting flyingalex (Reply 24):
Hamburg to Berlin by car is 2 hours, 40 minutes. To SXF, it's over three hours.

Hamburg to Berlin with the train is 1:40 and is supposed to go down 90 minutes again. Direct transfer to the airport express at Berlin Hbf which is supposed to start with 30 minutes and to take 20 minutes in a few years time will put it around the 2 hour mark. Hannover is around 1:40 as well with a few trains being extended to the airport, taking a little above 2 hours. A connection at Hbf will be around 2:20, 2:10 in a few years time.

Leipzig to Berlin SXF on the speedlimitless A9 is around 1:40, the train with a transfer in Suedkreuz will take around 1:30.

Quoting flyingalex (Reply 24):
Quoting flyingalex (Reply 24):
In any case, the real question is whether someone from Leipzig or Dresden would prefer to drive two hours to Berlin to fly longhaul or to take a short flight from DRS or LEJ and connect at an established hub

Ever been to the parking lots at TXL or SXF? There are huge amounts of cars parking from all over Eastern Germany plus a lot of cars from Poland, with bus services to a lot of Western polish cities. So yes, people already do that (even for european flights) and new connections will only trigger this.

Quoting flyingalex (Reply 24):
Similar arguments can be made for HAJ, and HAM already has longhaul flights to many popular destinations so a connection may not even be necessary.
HAM has flights to Teheran, Newark and Dubai with no signs of this being extended anytime soon. Are these "many popular destinations"?

I am not saying that everybody from the mentioned cities will go to BER for their flight needs, but the fairytale of Berlin being a big city in a desert is utter bullshit.

[Edited 2011-11-02 17:54:49]
 
Wsp
Posts: 356
Joined: Sun May 06, 2007 7:43 am

RE: Intercontinental Flights Out Of Berlin-Brandenburg

Thu Nov 03, 2011 1:33 am

Quoting flyingalex (Reply 24):
In any case, the real question is whether someone from Leipzig or Dresden would prefer to drive two hours to Berlin to fly longhaul or to take a short flight from DRS or LEJ and connect at an established hub.

The main problem is that there is no connection guarantee if your train is late.

Apart from that problem the 1:40h direct connection [Edit: as pointed out above its with a transfer in Südkreuz] from Leipzig Hbf to BER on board a quiet ICE in a cushy seat with a cup of coffee vs. a trip in the flying sardine can from LEJ to FRA or MUC would be an easy choice for me.

Quoting flyingalex (Reply 21):
Exactly. Travel is discretionary spending, and in order to travel, you need to have money left over to spend in the first place. Berlin has an unemployment rate of 12%, and most of the people who are employed have public sector jobs.

People in public sector jobs have no money for discretionary spending? Or is it that they get paid in food coupons that can't be redeemed for air travel?

Quoting flyingalex (Reply 24):
I cannot deduce where you get the figure of 30% for the public sector from

And I cannot deduce where you get the 50+% public sector figure from. Ohh wait... that's because you haven't even bothered to provide a source for that claim.

[Edited 2011-11-02 19:10:13]
 
dazeflight
Posts: 484
Joined: Tue Jun 22, 1999 1:32 am

RE: Intercontinental Flights Out Of Berlin-Brandenburg

Thu Nov 03, 2011 7:10 pm

As I just came accross this, an additional information regarding catchment area: more than a Million polish passengers use SXF and TXL each year, public transport is offered by 600 busses a week.
 
ClipperBerlin
Posts: 34
Joined: Sun Feb 03, 2008 8:15 pm

RE: Intercontinental Flights Out Of Berlin-Brandenburg

Sat Nov 05, 2011 11:38 am

I do not want to spice up the discussion about how attractive the Berlin region is. But thinking about airlines that served Berlin in the past there must have been a reson for them. And some of the airlines served TXL an SXF for quite some time. In my mind come Air Canada, Singapore Airlines, American Airlines, Tower Air, Iran Air, Royal Jordanian, Srilankan, Vietnam Airlines, JAL, Cubana, Air China, LAM, TAAG. To be fair LAM and TAAG stopped serving SXF shortly after reunification.

Yes, there must have been a reason why they discontinued flights but still SIA an Vietnam Airlines for example served Berlin for many years with success.

  

ClipperBerlin
 
PanHAM
Posts: 9731
Joined: Fri May 06, 2005 6:44 pm

RE: Intercontinental Flights Out Of Berlin-Brandenburg

Sat Nov 05, 2011 12:31 pm

You forgot Mongolian International....   as well as Interflug and you should also add the years when all these companies operated the flights,

Anything that is connected with the failed state East Germany should not be worth mentioning, these were political routes without any commercial viability, including Interflug. Same goes BTW for a defunct US charter carrier, Tower Air.

What you did forget as well was the life line PanAm provided for the free part of Berlin, including a daily 707 from TXL to JFK over many years, even when the main ops of PanAm where from THF.

Whatever will be commercially viable will happen at BER, we will see how well AB can establish their long distance net work from there.
Was Erlauben Erdogan!!!
 
dazeflight
Posts: 484
Joined: Tue Jun 22, 1999 1:32 am

RE: Intercontinental Flights Out Of Berlin-Brandenburg

Sat Nov 05, 2011 12:37 pm

^ If there ever was a Mongolian International. I guess you mistake this with MIAT, who are still serving Berlin and only increased their capacity this past summer.

@ ClipperBerlin: Royal Jordanian is back and has a code-share up and running with AB.
 
User avatar
RayChuang
Posts: 8137
Joined: Sat Jun 24, 2000 7:43 am

RE: Intercontinental Flights Out Of Berlin-Brandenburg

Sat Nov 05, 2011 1:22 pm

If LH were to fly to the USA from BER soon, I think the likely destinations would be JFK and maybe IAD (possibly to support travel of government officials between Washington, DC and Berlin). Mostly likely plane used initially: A340-300.
 
PanHAM
Posts: 9731
Joined: Fri May 06, 2005 6:44 pm

RE: Intercontinental Flights Out Of Berlin-Brandenburg

Sat Nov 05, 2011 1:39 pm

I am not mistake it, Mongolian International, or MIAT, or Mongolian Airlines, whatever you like. And I did not say that they stopped serving Berlin. Why didn't you correct me on PanAm, it was Pan American World Airways....  

Oh, another comrade carrier that used to fly to SXF, Air Koryo, we had a thread here recebtly about 4 charter flights.
Was Erlauben Erdogan!!!
 
something
Posts: 1239
Joined: Fri May 13, 2011 5:29 pm

RE: Intercontinental Flights Out Of Berlin-Brandenburg

Sat Nov 05, 2011 2:40 pm

The ball is being played back and forth from ''not everybody in Berlin is poor'' to ''everybody in Berlin is poor''. While there is merit to both sides of the statement, this is not at all relevant to the airlines.

You have to look at it the other way around. What would, say SA)">UA, get out of flying BER-SFO? They'd cannibalize their FRA flights, that's all. Or why should SA fly BER-JNB, where the same would happen?

The only flights I can see in BER's future are flights that are full at their destination airport on the German end (be it FRA or MUC) and that at the same time connect to a hub of the particular airline in its homecountry.

I could see EK to DXB, DL to ATL, AC to YYZ, CA to PEK, CX to HKG, AA to ORD/MIA/JFK and possibly 1-2 others I can't currently think of.

Air Berlin could theoretically dedicate to the BER market, but they'd have to work A LOT on their product to make it worth their while. A comprehensive feeder network, cabin overhaul, tighter cooperation with BA and AY (who are both trying to eat the same cake), low prices and better frequent flyer programs than the competition, a vastly superior hard product (be it on board, or the lounges at BER), and they'd have to be willing to accept that growth at BER would entail decline at DUS.
But from what I can tell, AB isn't even in the market to restructure itself. AB is still a charter airline that flies to holiday destinations, sells a lot of their seats through travel agencies and as package deals. That they also cater to a business market by offering, among others, TXL-JFK is more of a side effect to that concept and makes it easier to sell the empty seats through their own website. The customers they can ''steal'' from other airlines because they can offer something others don't, ie non stop flights from DUS/BER to various destinations, are certainly welcomed, but not the reason for AB to be in these markets. They would never start DUS-ORD for example, for the lack of tourist demand on this route. Alligning with an alliance will help them fill the seats that they didn't sell to tour operators, but does not mean they're becoming a second Lufthansa. It will bring them a few new customers and it will gain One World a domestic German airline but not more should be read into this.

On that note, I can see AB tapping into new intercontinental tourist destinations (JNB, SSA, PEK, HKT, CPT, YVR, YYZ, HKG, GIG (in the distant future), CCS (after Chavez)) from either DUS or BER, but nothing else is going to come of it.

Personally, I would suggest to Air Berlin to code-/revenue share with One World partners on all flights into One World hubs, ie give BER-JFK/MIA/LAX to AA, BER-HKG to CX etc. and then use their own aircraft on new routes to Star Alliance or SkyTeam fortresses and holiday destinations, like BER-PEK, BER-SSA, BER-JNB. I'd keep BER/DUS-SSA nonstop - as opposed to codeshare with IB - because vacationists are more reluctant to change airplanes than experienced business travellers. But that is what I would do, not necessarily what AB is willing to do.

Look at BER's future from an airline perspective and ask yourself what's for the airlines to be gotten out of this and what implications will the opening of a new routes have on that airline's network (tie up an aircraft on a hardly profitable route, cannibalize other flights, requires too much feed etc.) Not from a traveller's point of view.
..sick of it. -K. Pilkington.
 
something
Posts: 1239
Joined: Fri May 13, 2011 5:29 pm

RE: Intercontinental Flights Out Of Berlin-Brandenburg

Sat Nov 05, 2011 2:42 pm

Quoting RayChuang (Reply 31):

If LH were to fly to the USA from BER soon, I think the likely destinations would be JFK and maybe IAD (possibly to support travel of government officials between Washington, DC and Berlin). Mostly likely plane used initially: A340-300.

LH has already stated they are not going to take up long haul flying out of BER.
..sick of it. -K. Pilkington.
 
steman
Posts: 1575
Joined: Wed Aug 09, 2000 4:55 pm

RE: Intercontinental Flights Out Of Berlin-Brandenburg

Sat Nov 05, 2011 3:27 pm

LH supposedly will release information next wednesday about its BER plans.
Honestly I expect it to be a few more european routes (I need a BER-FCO pls) but mostly I think the main plan of the LH Group for BER is to make it the newest base of Germanwings.
It would make sense. 4U is the Group´s own LCC and it would perfectly fit in the BER market even if it has to compete with the likes of easyjet and Air Berlin (Ryanair presence seems to be rather small there)
LH would thus complete its presence in Germany, with its own hubs in FRA and MUC, secondary hub operations in DUS and few other bases and a big Germanwing base in BER tapping into the leisure/budget market.
Incidentally, is Berlin a crew base for LH?
I do not expect many new long haul routes ex BER for the next five years.
Then hopefully the economy of the city will have reached a higher level and Air Berlin might have successfully restructured its finances, better integrated its operations with other oneworld partners and maybe, just maybe, could have become part of IAG by then.
 
Wsp
Posts: 356
Joined: Sun May 06, 2007 7:43 am

RE: Intercontinental Flights Out Of Berlin-Brandenburg

Sat Nov 05, 2011 3:43 pm

Quoting something (Reply 33):
Air Berlin could theoretically dedicate to the BER market, but they'd have to work A LOT on their product to make it worth their while. A comprehensive feeder network, cabin overhaul, tighter cooperation with BA and AY (who are both trying to eat the same cake), low prices and better frequent flyer programs than the competition, a vastly superior hard product (be it on board, or the lounges at BER), and they'd have to be willing to accept that growth at BER would entail decline at DUS.

Well, Mehdorn's (Air Berlin CEO) previous job was very much along these lines. He was hired at Deutsche Bahn to implement a plan to bring the long distance high yield business into a shape where it could be sold to private investors.
 
ClipperBerlin
Posts: 34
Joined: Sun Feb 03, 2008 8:15 pm

RE: Intercontinental Flights Out Of Berlin-Brandenburg

Sat Nov 05, 2011 3:53 pm

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 29):

Air Canada, American, Singapore and Vietnam Airlines do nothing have to do with the failed state of East Germany. Vietnam Airlines served TXL for many years in he late 90s. Concerning Tower Air, LAM and TAAG you are correct. But it´s ok you have your opinion I have mine. Let´s wait an see what the new airport will come up with.

Cheers

ClipperBerlin
 
PanHAM
Posts: 9731
Joined: Fri May 06, 2005 6:44 pm

RE: Intercontinental Flights Out Of Berlin-Brandenburg

Sat Nov 05, 2011 5:58 pm

Quoting ClipperBerlin (Reply 37):
Air Canada, American, Singapore and Vietnam Airlines do nothing have to do with the failed state of East Germany.

quote me wrong, but did I say that anywhere? Fact is, theey all cancelled their flights, which would not have been the case if they where financially sustainable. Vietnam Airlines does not really have to make a profit, SQ does and for SQ it was a hub to spoke whereas SIN-MUC and SIN-FRA are hub to hub operations. May be AA flies to BER again once they get the necessary feed from AB, which would be needed to make a route viable. We'll see.

Quoting Wsp (Reply 36):
He was hired at Deutsche Bahn to implement a plan to bring the long distance high yield business into a shape where it could be sold to private investors.

He was hired to bring the company into shape and he did a mighty fine job. The ICE product is excellent, if he can turn AB around like he did the long distance train service it will be a strong competitor for LH. Let's see. Deutsche Bahn AG makes money and that is Mehdorn's success, may be we should start buying AB shares.
Was Erlauben Erdogan!!!
 
nycdave
Posts: 301
Joined: Mon Aug 16, 2010 4:22 pm

RE: Intercontinental Flights Out Of Berlin-Brandenburg

Sat Nov 05, 2011 6:28 pm

The simple construction of a new, modern airport alone isn't going to change the demand for travel into and out of the Berlin area. I would not expect, anytime soon, a great expansion of long-haul service over what already exists at TXL.

BER *is* still a good long-term investment, however, as it improves the travel experience and connection to the airport, as well as giving abundant room for future growth.

A hub operation, which BER (unlike TXL or SXF) is built to handle, could greatly change the game there, but as the discussions here have repeatedly concluded, the only real potential hub operator would be AB, which has its own problems that need to be dealt with. If they are successful, the possibility of BER becoming a OneWorld hub is, well... possible.

Outside of that, the prospects all depend on what happens with the Berlin area economy in the future. It is already a very exciting city, and the affordability if offers has made it a magnet for startups, artists, and the young. If some of those startups become big businesses, if those artists draw more people to galleries there (rather than sending their work elsewhere), and those young adventurers become adult professionals, well... in a generation, traffic through BER could look very different!

For now, I see it looking more like BCN, with the added bonus of (some) government business. (A lot of other Americans might not be aware, but Germany's federal government is not concentrated in Berlin the same way, say, ours is in DC. Post-reunification, some federal offices were moved to Berlin, but others stayed put so as to avoid massive disruption and economic dislocation).
 
Wsp
Posts: 356
Joined: Sun May 06, 2007 7:43 am

RE: Intercontinental Flights Out Of Berlin-Brandenburg

Sat Nov 05, 2011 6:43 pm

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 38):
may be we should start buying AB shares
DB benefits from subsidized local transit networks that connect to their train stations and that make their long distance services viable. It has a regional train network that is subsidized by regional governments. It has a track network entirely paid for by the tax payer. It has modern train stations usually located right in the center of cities paid for by the tax payer. [Edit: It also benefited from laws prohibiting long-distance bus services from competing with trains.]

So before anyone rushes out to buy AB shares it should be pointed out that the starting position for Mr. Mehdorn to bring AB to profitability is slightly less advantageous than when he worked at DB.

[Edited 2011-11-05 11:46:08]
 
PanHAM
Posts: 9731
Joined: Fri May 06, 2005 6:44 pm

RE: Intercontinental Flights Out Of Berlin-Brandenburg

Sun Nov 06, 2011 6:27 am

Quoting Wsp (Reply 40):
DB benefits from subsidized local transit networks that connect to their train stations and that make their long distance services viable. It has a regional train network that is subsidized by regional governments. It has a track network entirely paid for by the tax payer.

You have to operate that switch in your brain and think commercially. DB, like airlines, is a service company. They sell their service to individuals but also to state and city governments, If a state government decides to buy a RE train service with x kilometers per year and sells the service to the general public for less than it pays, it is not the fault of DB AG. Understood? Not the service provider is subsidized, the users are.

For Air Berlin, an ultimately the operations at BER, Mehdorn is an asset. I doubt that IAG would rescue them as they are, It would put them back on square one with Deutsche BA and LH would have an easy game to fight them as they did before.
Was Erlauben Erdogan!!!
 
something
Posts: 1239
Joined: Fri May 13, 2011 5:29 pm

RE: Intercontinental Flights Out Of Berlin-Brandenburg

Sun Nov 06, 2011 10:13 am

Quoting ClipperBerlin (Reply 37):
Singapore and Vietnam Airlines do nothing have to do with the failed state of East Germany

Which is not true. The DDR had a cultural exchange type of program with Vietnam and allowed border free travel within the limitations of the communist empire.

Singapore Airlines inherited the route from Interflug which operated SXF-BKK-SIN. SIN flew SIN-SXF once weekly, later made it a tag on and frequency was doubled SIN-ZRH-SXF-ZRH-SIN. Very low premium and cargo demand kept the route unprofitable and after SQ joined a bilateral agreement with LH in 1998 and became a full Star Alliance member in 2000, they dropped their -SXF flights and replaced them with a LH codeshare.

http://www.bpb.de/publikationen/R9SN..._Sozialismus_und_Kapitalismus.html
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vertragsarbeiter
..sick of it. -K. Pilkington.
 
something
Posts: 1239
Joined: Fri May 13, 2011 5:29 pm

RE: Intercontinental Flights Out Of Berlin-Brandenburg

Sun Nov 06, 2011 11:19 am

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 41):
For Air Berlin, an ultimately the operations at BER, Mehdorn is an asset. I doubt that IAG would rescue them as they are, It would put them back on square one with Deutsche BA and LH would have an easy game to fight them as they did before.

On the short term, I agree with you. But what is going to happen with Air Berlin the long run remains to be seen. I for one am sceptical of his aptitude. The DB operates as a quasi monopoly. Air Berlin on the other hands operates in one of the most competitive, least profitable business environments in the world. If the past is any indication, you need a strong ''corporate idendity'' to make it big. Neither Ryanair, Southwest nor Emirates offer the best product out there, yet are highly profitable market leaders. And it is that passion/dedication that I just don't see in Mehdorn. He would make a fantastic manager for a toilet roll factory, no doubt. But I'm just not sure he's got the intricacies of the aviation world down.
..sick of it. -K. Pilkington.
 
User avatar
Semaex
Posts: 803
Joined: Mon Nov 23, 2009 4:17 pm

RE: Intercontinental Flights Out Of Berlin-Brandenburg

Sun Nov 06, 2011 3:30 pm

Quoting something (Reply 43):
And it is that passion/dedication that I just don't see in Mehdorn. He would make a fantastic manager for a toilet roll factory, no doubt. But I'm just not sure he's got the intricacies of the aviation world down.

Sounds like an hommage to Sir Richard Branson  
// You know you're an aviation enthusiast if you look at your neighbour's cars and think about fleet commonality.
 
Wsp
Posts: 356
Joined: Sun May 06, 2007 7:43 am

RE: Intercontinental Flights Out Of Berlin-Brandenburg

Sun Nov 06, 2011 8:42 pm

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 41):
You have to operate that switch in your brain and think commercially. DB, like airlines, is a service company. They sell their service to individuals but also to state and city governments, If a state government decides to buy a RE train service with x kilometers per year and sells the service to the general public for less than it pays, it is not the fault of DB AG. Understood? Not the service provider is subsidized, the users are.

Turns out I already know that and agree with you. But you missed my point.

The issue is not what these services contribute to DB's bottom line. The issue is that without these publicly subsidized feeder services many of the long distance trains would not be viable, let alone profitable.
 
PanHAM
Posts: 9731
Joined: Fri May 06, 2005 6:44 pm

RE: Intercontinental Flights Out Of Berlin-Brandenburg

Mon Nov 07, 2011 6:10 am

Quoting Wsp (Reply 45):
The issue is not what these services contribute to DB's bottom line. The issue is that without these publicly subsidized feeder services many of the long distance trains would not be viable, let alone profitable.


yes, but still not DB AG is subsidized, the users of the local and regional trains are. You might as well say that without freight trains the long distance trains are not viable. Or without freight Frankfurt Airport and the airlines using FRA would not be profitable. It would be by far more costly to run this - and that goes for airports as well as train services - under the old fashio "authority" than as it is done now as a commercially accounatble listed company. The old Bundesbahn was a bottomless pit and airports did not have to make profits either. Now they are not only efficiently run, the make profits as well.
Was Erlauben Erdogan!!!
 
User avatar
RayChuang
Posts: 8137
Joined: Sat Jun 24, 2000 7:43 am

RE: Intercontinental Flights Out Of Berlin-Brandenburg

Mon Nov 07, 2011 1:11 pm

Quoting something (Reply 34):
LH has already stated they are not going to take up long haul flying out of BER.

I'm not sure if this is a good idea. Now that the German capital is back in Berlin, why would you want to fly to FRA from IAD and then have to transfer to another flight just to get to BER? With a lot of government officials potentially flying between Washington, DC and Berlin (with good reason: Germany has the strongest economy in Europe, no contest), a direct flight between the two cities could attract quite a lot of traffic for government officials from both countries. Maybe this could be done with a four to six times a week flight from UA using a 767-300(ER), with an eventual upgrade to a 777-200ER?
 
PanHAM
Posts: 9731
Joined: Fri May 06, 2005 6:44 pm

RE: Intercontinental Flights Out Of Berlin-Brandenburg

Mon Nov 07, 2011 1:18 pm

TXL-IAD has been tried before by LH and it did not work out. I would also doubt that there are so many German "government officials" who would use that route. Also, I remember the day when IAD had no UA hub and government officials had to travel to JFK first to catch a flight to FRA from where they could drive to Bonn. The Germans had the chance to use the Luftwaffe shuttle CGN-IAD which, I believe, still may exist today

UA can do it, if they wish, as a hub-to spoke route. For LH it would e a spoke to other *carrier hub route without much feed from other European cities and without that feeder traffic not even FRA, MUC and DUS could sustain all their long distance services. BER is simply too remote.
Was Erlauben Erdogan!!!
 
hman
Posts: 45
Joined: Wed Jul 26, 2006 4:47 am

RE: Intercontinental Flights Out Of Berlin-Brandenburg

Mon Nov 07, 2011 2:10 pm

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 48):
TXL-IAD has been tried before by LH and it did not work out.

This argument gets repeated over and over again and I don't think it is 100% valid (anymore). That flight started just 1 month or so before 9-11 and was cancelled right afterwards. There was a global downturn in the airline business and this was not a good time to start a new route.

Also the traffic in BER (all airports) has almost doubled since that time so the number of people that would use a flight to IAD has probably increased, too.

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos