kaitak
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Irish 22/11: Samhain Sa Speir

Tue Nov 01, 2011 5:24 am

Good morning folks and welcome to 22/11. We've had an interesting 21st thread with some good news (UA coming to DUB), bad news (weather - probably more of that to come) and more of the same (EI's marketing "skills"). Here's the link, for any discussion you want to follow ...

Irish 21/11: Flying With Attitude (by kaitak Oct 15 2011 in Civil Aviation)

So, what's new ...

Well, apart from the new UAL route, which hasn't been formally announced, not a lot right now; we can hope to hear some new route announcements over the next few months, and also the outcome of any discussions between EY (and other parties) and the government. This has been quiet in the last few weeks, so one can only guess what is going on. As discussed in the last thread, one can only hope that EY (or whichever party) buys an interest in EY can focus attention on some of its shortcomings, such as marketing.

This time last year, there was gloom and doom; this time the year before that, it was gloomier and doomier. While we're hardly in "dolce vita" land right now, the shoots of green are certainly move in evidence; the economy does seem to have stabilised and there is a lot more international confidence in Ireland, which is at least a good foundation to build on. Let's hope it continues ...
 
kaitak
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RE: Irish 22/11: Samhain Sa Speir

Tue Nov 01, 2011 5:40 am

Here's a nice little rumour to get the thread moving:

http://www.businessandfinance.ie/bf/...2011newssection/vitisseptember2011

Air China looking at a DUB service; now that would be very interesting; an A330 would be pretty much a dead cert for such a route and with PEK now being one of the world's busiest airports, it would offer connections to more than just Shanghai; PEK would also offer connections to Japan, Korea (yes, North too!), HKG, Taiwan and of course major new markets (for us) across China. Got to hand it to the DAA; first EK, now UA and possibly CA to follow; fair play to them.

Interesting to see EI remark that there isn't enough traffic for a direct route; one can't help thinking "well, not the way you do it, but for airline's that know their a**e from the elbow when it comes to marketing, it can happen".
 
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shamrock604
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RE: Irish 22/11: Samhain Sa Speir

Tue Nov 01, 2011 6:01 am

Quoting kaitak (Reply 1):
Air China looking at a DUB service; now that would be very interesting; an A330 would be pretty much a dead cert for such a route and with PEK now being one of the world's busiest airports, it would offer connections to more than just Shanghai; PEK would also offer connections to Japan, Korea (yes, North too!), HKG, Taiwan and of course major new markets (for us) across China. Got to hand it to the DAA; first EK, now UA and possibly CA to follow; fair play to them.

Interesting to see EI remark that there isn't enough traffic for a direct route; one can't help thinking "well, not the way you do it, but for airline's that know their a**e from the elbow when it comes to marketing, it can happen".

Interesting.. they are not the only carrier sniffing at that route from what I hear. Another airline is interested in DUB and MAN from PEK.....

EI's comments are as usual..... they said the same when CSA started DUB-PRG (oh, there's no market for it). Before long, CSA were at double daily, EI started their own service and then FR followed suit.

It's a standard reply from them at this stage!
 
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OA260
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RE: Irish 22/11: Samhain Sa Speir

Tue Nov 01, 2011 8:49 am

Quoting kaitak (Reply 1):
Air China looking at a DUB service; now that would be very interesting; an A330 would be pretty much a dead cert for such a route

That would be a nice route especially if it was a tag route with a stop in another EU Airport. They have a nice product. I flew them CDG-ATH in J class. Also would be nice to have another Star Carrier at DUB.
 
EI787
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RE: Irish 22/11: Samhain Sa Speir

Tue Nov 01, 2011 9:40 am

UA launching DUB-IAD from next May:

http://businessetc.thejournal.ie/new...-and-washington-dc-268429-Nov2011/

Super news!

EDIT: Apologies - I've just seen it was already reported on the previous thread!

[Edited 2011-11-01 02:41:56]
 
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OA260
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RE: Irish 22/11: Samhain Sa Speir

Tue Nov 01, 2011 9:46 am

Quoting EI787 (Reply 4):
UA launching DUB-IAD from next May:

Great news for us Star Golds based in Ireland and another earn and burn opportunity .   
With all these Star Carriers there must be a case for a Star lounge especially if BMI goes down the pan.
 
Eagleboy
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RE: Irish 22/11: Samhain Sa Speir

Tue Nov 01, 2011 10:36 am

Quoting kaitak (Reply 1):
Interesting to see EI remark that there isn't enough traffic for a direct route; one can't help thinking "well, not the way you do it, but for airline's that know their a**e from the elbow when it comes to marketing, it can happen".
Quoting shamrock604 (Reply 2):
It's a standard reply from them at this stage!

I agree that it is a standard response. I would hazard a guess that EI have some sort of convoluted statistic to back these assertions up. Remember their assertions that Ireland-Oz supports 50 pax per day?
(Only include pax who book a single ticket with no more than 1 hour between connections, or only count pax who book on an airline we codeshare with)

Several people have commented on the large Chinese population in Ireland these days, and the possibility of a DUB-China route, I do agree. But I feel they would be more inclined to travel CA than EI on a DUB-PEK route, a any visitors from China would feel the same.


And if this rumour does not come to pass at least it shows that the DAA are actively touting for business to make the investment in T2 deliver. A couple of new airlines/routes using it will wipe out those remaining "White Elephant" MoL cheerleaders.




I think we can look back at the previous IAD service and see that the market is a bit different now.
-I assume the UA route will be a B757, so a smaller aircraft than the EI A330,less stretch/risk for the operator.
-UA have a bigger name and market to draw on than EI so possibility of more pax willing to use the route.
-OA260 also touches on a point, UA can attract FF members from the entire alliance.
-EI cut service in 2009 when the global economy was heading down, now is is (slowly) creeping back up so a new route is well timed.
 
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OA260
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RE: Irish 22/11: Samhain Sa Speir

Tue Nov 01, 2011 10:52 am

Quoting Eagleboy (Reply 6):
UA can attract FF members from the entire alliance.

Indeed and as someone else stated I presume UA can get the US Govt business aswell or at least some of it.
Hopefully this route will succeed and with pre clearence ( I presume this will be the case ) it has many benefits.
 
BrianDromey
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RE: Irish 22/11: Samhain Sa Speir

Tue Nov 01, 2011 2:05 pm

Quoting OA260 (Reply 7):
Hopefully this route will succeed and with pre clearence ( I presume this will be the case ) it has many benefits.

I have high hopes for this route, it would seem to have the right operator, with the right aircraft. I just wonder what effect there will be on EWR, if frequencies will change, or aircraft operating the service will change? I suspect there will be some change, because UA is relatively limited in the number of 757s they have, but there is a lot of capacity introduced into the joint UA/CO network - a lot of 777s and 767s, which CO were short of.
Perhaps a once daily 767-300 (ex UA) to EWR (or one of the 764s) and the 757 to IAD. This would free up a 757, maybe for the rumored IAD-MAN.

Brian
 
EIDAA
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RE: Irish 22/11: Samhain Sa Speir

Tue Nov 01, 2011 5:45 pm

A quick question for those familiar with Cityjet...

I was out at the airport on Monday afternoon and noticed that the WX flights to CDG are now using AF callsigns (e.g. AFR1479), while the LCY flights retain the WX callsigns (e.g. BCY5116).

While I know they already had separate LCY and CDG operations, they still shared the WX / BCY callsign. Presumably this has now just kicked in with the switch over to Winter season, but can anyone confirm?

Thanks,
EIDAA
Most Flown:- G-BUVA (20 Flights), EI-DEB (12 Flights), EI-JFK (11 Flights)
 
kaitak
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RE: Irish 22/11: Samhain Sa Speir

Tue Nov 01, 2011 6:29 pm

Quoting BrianDromey (Reply 8):
I have high hopes for this route, it would seem to have the right operator, with the right aircraft. I just wonder what effect there will be on EWR, if frequencies will change, or aircraft operating the service will change?

Just wondering about this myself; maybe they will make one of the DUB-EWR (which is apparently quite a successful route for them during the Summer) frequencies a larger aircraft, perhaps 763 or 764? I'd hope for a 787, but that's probaby being just a tad too optimistic!

With any luck, DL should be back to a 330 for the premium months (if not the whole season) and we'll probably get a 763 to JFK.

Now, AA: any chance of DFW?
 
Eirules
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RE: Irish 22/11: Samhain Sa Speir

Tue Nov 01, 2011 8:09 pm

Fantastic news (assuming the UA rumour is true). IAD is a very important destination to add to the route network from DUB. I can certainly see EWR changing, probably to a 763 as I suggested before.

I know it has been questioned at to the growing transatlantic network from DUB (IAD, CLT, upguage from DL etc) but given the amount of people who travel through LHR to the US, I still believe the right airline with the right equipment can make new routes work from DUB. Kaitak, despite your plea I dont see AA as such an airline, they have recently cancelled their winter schedule to BUD which has another oneworld carrier hubbed there and their interest / success at DUB has been limited. For me, UA still represent the best chance - ORD has to be in contention and I wouldnt rule out SFO either. The 763 could suit the route better than EI's A330s. But lets not get carried away. 3 new long haul routes (CLT, IAD and DXB) in one year is to be applauded. We often criticise the DAA, well done on this occasion

Quoting OA260 (Reply 5):
With all these Star Carriers there must be a case for a Star lounge especially if BMI goes down the pan.

Phil I heard a rumour that UA may be about to do a deal with EI and use the Gold Circle lounge in DUB for BusinessFirst customers rather than the current awful BD one
The way you cut your meat reflects the way you live....
 
dstc47
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RE: Irish 22/11: Samhain Sa Speir

Tue Nov 01, 2011 8:18 pm

If anyone could make IAD work it is UA, for the reasons given, not EI. UA own IAD.

Flight timings, and especially pre-clearance, will be important.
 
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shamrock604
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RE: Irish 22/11: Samhain Sa Speir

Tue Nov 01, 2011 8:50 pm

Quoting EIRules (Reply 11):
For me, UA still represent the best chance - ORD has to be in contention and I wouldnt rule out SFO either

Well, it may have the effect of giving EI a much needed kick up the ar*e. If they see US carriers "poaching" their previously served and presumably still on the list routes, they may feel they have no option but to relaunch SFO or LAX to protect their patch.

Quoting EIRules (Reply 11):
But lets not get carried away. 3 new long haul routes (CLT, IAD and DXB) in one year is to be applauded. We often criticise the DAA, well done on this occasion

There's a real impetus now - with 3 new services reeled in, and rumours of a Chinese link. Let's hope it continues. But I still maintain we need growth on short haul, over at Terminal one....
 
BrianDromey
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RE: Irish 22/11: Samhain Sa Speir

Tue Nov 01, 2011 10:23 pm

Quoting EIRules (Reply 11):
Phil I heard a rumour that UA may be about to do a deal with EI and use the Gold Circle lounge in DUB for BusinessFirst customers rather than the current awful BD one

The GoldCircle lounge is actually very nice in T2, it's certainly as good, if not better, than the standard of your average UA or LH lounge. Perhaps not as nice as the BD lounge at LHR or the LX lounge in BSL, but pretty darn good.
There fantastic shower facilities, well stocked with toiletries and everything one could want, including plenty of towels. There is plenty of reading material and the coffee is hot and drinkable. The design of the Lounge also appeals to me, the place is flooded with natural light from those huge windows and the ogham wall is a lovely touch. The staff are lovely and the food is pretty much the BOB menu - right down to the chicken & stuffing sandwiches - although I would question how appropriate this is at 0515!
The LHR lounge offers soup during the day, does the T2 lounge offer this, taking a leaf from BD porridge would be a good addition?
 
ein105
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RE: Irish 22/11: Samhain Sa Speir

Tue Nov 01, 2011 10:45 pm

Quoting EIRules (Reply 11):
For me, UA still represent the best chance - ORD has to be in contention and I wouldnt rule out SFO either. The 763 could suit the route better than EI's A330s

Many of the US carriers are reluctant to launch California-Europe routes. It will be odd to see UA operating DUB and EI serving MAD from IAD!

Quoting BrianDromey (Reply 14):
Quoting EIRules (Reply 11):
Phil I heard a rumour that UA may be about to do a deal with EI and use the Gold Circle lounge in DUB for BusinessFirst customers rather than the current awful BD one

It would be a good move for both airlines. Wonder could we ever see EI handling UA in Dublin?
 
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OA260
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RE: Irish 22/11: Samhain Sa Speir

Tue Nov 01, 2011 11:01 pm

Quoting EIRules (Reply 11):
Phil I heard a rumour that UA may be about to do a deal with EI and use the Gold Circle lounge in DUB for BusinessFirst customers rather than the current awful BD one

Cant say I blame them.

Quoting shamrock604 (Reply 13):
There's a real impetus now - with 3 new services reeled in, and rumours of a Chinese link. Let's hope it continues. But I still maintain we need growth on short haul, over at Terminal one....

Indeed with new routes and T2 there is a real sense of turning a corner. Not to mention the EUR3.6BN we now have   lol....

Quoting BrianDromey (Reply 14):
There fantastic shower facilities, well stocked with toiletries and everything one could want, including plenty of towels. There is plenty of reading material and the coffee is hot and drinkable. The design of the Lounge also appeals to me, the place is flooded with natural light from those huge windows and the ogham wall is a lovely touch. The staff are lovely and the food is pretty much the BOB menu - right down to the chicken & stuffing sandwiches - although I would question how appropriate this is at 0515!
The LHR lounge offers soup during the day, does the T2 lounge offer this, taking a leaf from BD porridge would be a good addition?

Very true they did a good job with the new lounge. I love it. I love the split level also and the layout. EI should offer what BD offer in the mornings , hot pastries they really go down well. A mix of Cinnamon swirls and Pain Au Chocolat & Croissants. Thats in BD LHR not DUB of course lol... The BMI DUB lounge needs a overhaul and it wouldnt cost them that much to make it the same interior as the LHR Domestic lounge. Also add a bit more catering & a Nespresso machine . It doesnt need to be as crap as it is thats for sure.
 
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shamrock604
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RE: Irish 22/11: Samhain Sa Speir

Tue Nov 01, 2011 11:18 pm

Quoting OA260 (Reply 16):
Indeed with new routes and T2 there is a real sense of turning a corner. Not to mention the EUR3.6BN we now have lol....

Hehee!!! But they tell us "oh no, that doesnt matter.... we still need to hit you for, well, 3.6 billion in the budget".

I really wonder about the whole affair. It's the number - 3.6 billion - that really has me asking questions, and if this is part of some game between Dublin and Brussels / IMF.

Back to aviation, understandably, the Dublin market will be first to bounce back. It will take a while for the benefit to be felt at other Irish airports, but let's hope it's here finally.

We are now four years into this nightmare, it's time for some daylight!
 
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OA260
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RE: Irish 22/11: Samhain Sa Speir

Wed Nov 02, 2011 11:04 am

Quoting shamrock604 (Reply 17):
Hehee!!! But they tell us "oh no, that doesnt matter.... we still need to hit you for, well, 3.6 billion in the budget".

Indeed but I guess its still a bonus and we need to be cautious.

EY have a great seat sale on from DUB at the moment Australia from EUR604 AUH EUR378 and JNB EUR405 and all include taxes. Not bad at all.
 
EIBusiness
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RE: Irish 22/11: Samhain Sa Speir

Wed Nov 02, 2011 11:19 am

Quoting shamrock604 (Reply 17):
Hehee!!! But they tell us "oh no, that doesnt matter.... we still need to hit you for, well, 3.6 billion in the budget".

I really wonder about the whole affair. It's the number - 3.6 billion - that really has me asking questions, and if this is part of some game between Dublin and Brussels / IMF.

And what sort of game might that be? Quite simply, this is down to incompetence on the part of DOF officials. Last week, it was revealed that a similar error had taken place in Germany, to the tune of EUR 55 Billion. Moreover, this has absolutely nothing to do with our current, out of control, Fiscal deficit. It refers to the overstatement of already accumulated debt. Ireland's 10 Year Bond Yield remains well above 8.0%. We remain on 'life-support' funding and were we without that in the morning, any annual adjustment would exceed EUR 10 Billion. I'm sorry if my response appears curt, however - such dismissal feeds right into the hands of the ''Burn the Bondholders'' and ''Occupy'' type protestors who would have you believe that Ireland should withdraw from the EU/IMF Program immediately - when in fact such a move would leave us economically ruined.

The announcement of several new Long Haul routes ex DUB is certainly positive. However, let's monitor the total annual change in traffic first - because that isn't showing any definitive upward trend at the moment.

EIBusiness
Vivo Per Lei...
 
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shamrock604
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RE: Irish 22/11: Samhain Sa Speir

Wed Nov 02, 2011 6:10 pm

Well.....that's me back in my box then, isn't it!  
 
tonymctigue
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RE: Irish 22/11: Samhain Sa Speir

Wed Nov 02, 2011 7:39 pm

Quoting OA260 (Reply 18):
Back to aviation, understandably, the Dublin market will be first to bounce back. It will take a while for the benefit to be felt at other Irish airports, but let's hope it's here finally.

As much as I like to adopt a positive attitude towards all things aviation, it is hard not to notice a particurarly sad sight

http://www.galwayairport.com/flight_info/

We all agree here that less is more in terms of airports along the Western seaboard but it is still sad to see an airport with a completely blank flight information board

Incidentially, as much as we like to bash politicians for their interference with aviation policy for the benefit of their own back yard, this article in this week's Galway Independent falls into that classical dammed if you do, dammed if you don't

http://www.galwayindependent.com/loc...ht-in-airport-turbulence-20111102/

This gives us an insight into why politicians sometimes can't say the right thing even if they want to and why perhaps part of the reason why they either ignore it completely or make wild promises. I love the accustion that Deputy Walsh has "a lack of understanding on the business and economic impact associated with a regional airport" and using the so-called "independently qualifie reports" to justify his stance. This is the kind of bully-boy tatics that vested interest groups (and I include the SNN lobby in that) deploy that make it almost impossible for goverments who actually want to implement sensible policies to do so. Course opposition politicans are as much to blame because rather than standing up for sensible policies (even if they are from a government parties) they will promise to do whatever vested interest groups want and the viscious cycle begins again. Everything that Brian Walsh said makes perfect sense and for a chamber of commerce to argue that somehow an airport that 90% of all available seats are empty is a sustainable business model really doesn't say much for the business skills of Galway Chamber of Commerce.
Airports: SNN GWY NOC DUB ORK BOS EWR JFK ORD MCI BOI SEA LHR STN CDG LYS FAO GVA HKG MEL ADL HBA
 
dstc47
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RE: Irish 22/11: Samhain Sa Speir

Wed Nov 02, 2011 8:02 pm

Quoting tonymctigue (Reply 21):
This gives us an insight into why politicians sometimes can't say the right thing even if they want to

Indeed, very dangerous to point out that the Emperor has no clothes.

It is also disturbing to see the references to Waterford, which has managed to hold on to international service, as somehow being improperly favoured.


Sad to see GWY staff losing their jobs but they may well not be the last, given the current situation.
 
BrianDromey
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RE: Irish 22/11: Samhain Sa Speir

Wed Nov 02, 2011 8:34 pm

Quoting tonymctigue (Reply 21):
Everything that Brian Walsh said makes perfect sense and for a chamber of commerce to argue that somehow an airport that 90% of all available seats are empty is a sustainable business model really doesn't say much for the business skills of Galway Chamber of Commerce.

Indeed. I find it a bit suspicious that they point out WAT continues to receive funding, yet ignore the number of passengers traveling. Clearly RE would have pulled WAT if they felt the airport had no viable routes. I would guess that the launch of RE service from SNN to a good selection of UK destinations and the additional routes at NOC have squeezed the airport to a point where there is very little traffic left, with the PSO gone costs probably looked pretty bad, WAT has not had PSO routes to soak some of the costs.
 
EI787
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RE: Irish 22/11: Samhain Sa Speir

Wed Nov 02, 2011 8:45 pm

Quoting OA260 (Reply 18):
EY have a great seat sale on from DUB at the moment Australia from EUR604 AUH EUR378 and JNB EUR405 and all include taxes. Not bad at all.

Some great fares alright. Hopefully we'll see more of this with EK entering the scene!
 
tonymctigue
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RE: Irish 22/11: Samhain Sa Speir

Wed Nov 02, 2011 8:50 pm

Quoting dstc47 (Reply 22):
It is also disturbing to see the references to Waterford, which has managed to hold on to international service, as somehow being improperly favoured.

Indeed and the reference to the fact that RE have not suspended services from there, somehow implying that the government could intervene in the operations of a company that (unlike EI) was never a semi state and has recently gone through examinership, partly because it had concentrated too much on serving airports like GWY, hence the recent refocusing of attention on using the strength of the EI brand to boost their passenger figures to and from Ireland and on new markets like SEN. We have said it before plenty of times in the context of SNN and the same applies in GWY. RE picked WAT over GWY because WAT is making them money and GWY isn't. Plain and simple. It is nothing to do with favouritisim on the part of RE (who if they were to play favourites would have picked GWY if anything) or a government conspiracy to screw GWY out of something. You can't even get a fully-loaded ATR-72 off the runway at GWY for God's sake. It reminds me of SNN vs DUB only on a smaller scale and with lower stakes.

I do feel sorry for those who have lost their jobs but Galway Chamber of Commerce would be far better lobbying on behalf of projects such as Galway Harbour redevelopment and completing the M18 that will improve access to both NOC and SNN. These projects have far more to offer the region than GWY ever will and if those couple hundred thousand passenger could be lured to SNN or NOC then they may just make the difference between profit and loss on some of the thinner routes.
Airports: SNN GWY NOC DUB ORK BOS EWR JFK ORD MCI BOI SEA LHR STN CDG LYS FAO GVA HKG MEL ADL HBA
 
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shamrock604
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RE: Irish 22/11: Samhain Sa Speir

Wed Nov 02, 2011 9:02 pm

Quoting tonymctigue (Reply 21):
This gives us an insight into why politicians sometimes can't say the right thing even if they want to and why perhaps part of the reason why they either ignore it completely or make wild promises. I love the accustion that Deputy Walsh has "a lack of understanding on the business and economic impact associated with a regional airport" and using the so-called "independently qualifie reports" to justify his stance. This is the kind of bully-boy tatics that vested interest groups (and I include the SNN lobby in that) deploy that make it almost impossible for goverments who actually want to implement sensible policies to do so. Course opposition politicans are as much to blame because rather than standing up for sensible policies (even if they are from a government parties) they will promise to do whatever vested interest groups want and the viscious cycle begins again. Everything that Brian Walsh said makes perfect sense and for a chamber of commerce to argue that somehow an airport that 90% of all available seats are empty is a sustainable business model really doesn't say much for the business skills of Galway Chamber of Commerce.

I understand this completely, but I also feel that politicians in Ireland do a very poor job of verbalising sensible policy. Had Leo gone public and explained the benefits of rationalisation of airports and not solely relied on "free market capitalism" talk of subsidies etc etc, he would have found fair audience. It needs to be explained that rationalisation is in the Interests of the west, and it is not something they should be fearful of.
 
tonymctigue
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RE: Irish 22/11: Samhain Sa Speir

Wed Nov 02, 2011 9:31 pm

Quoting shamrock604 (Reply 26):
I understand this completely, but I also feel that politicians in Ireland do a very poor job of verbalising sensible policy. Had Leo gone public and explained the benefits of rationalisation of airports and not solely relied on "free market capitalism" talk of subsidies etc etc, he would have found fair audience. It needs to be explained that rationalisation is in the Interests of the west, and it is not something they should be fearful of.

You are right that these policies should be explained by those at the top rather than relying on local representatives like Brian Walsh to do a solo run. The trouble is that even if Leo Varadkar tried exaplining ratinalisation policies without the support of local representtives then he would be accused of showing a Dublin bias. To implement sensible rationalisation policies like this requires a unifoed approach from the Taoiseach right down to local representives.

In fairness to Leo, I think on this one he did explain it really well when it was announced. He specifically pointed out the proximity of Galway to SNN and NOC, the improved road access to these two airports and how the closure of GWY and SXL would help to build sustainable air services to the West via SNN and NOC if they didn't have small, lame duck airports eating into their catchments. However, the difficulty came when the inevitable lack of political bottle reared its ugly head and there was a temporary stay of execution granted to GWY and SXL by more senior members of the cabinet (the cynic in me says for the benefit of government party candidates in the Presidential election) and of course hung Leo out to dry in the process.

It is one thing explaining the benefits of such rationalisation policies but there is and always will be a backlash regardless of how well it is explained. It is a fundamental human flaw not to think long term. The key thing that is missing from our political system is the lack of political unity and bottle to implement policies that may bring some short term pain but will ultimately be for the greater good. Those who are brave enough to raise their heads above the paraphet are often left on their own as their opponents (both within their own party and in opposition parties) make political hay from their unpopular but often sensible opinions and if they do emerge are always left traumatised to the point they never do it again.
Airports: SNN GWY NOC DUB ORK BOS EWR JFK ORD MCI BOI SEA LHR STN CDG LYS FAO GVA HKG MEL ADL HBA
 
Eagleboy
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RE: Irish 22/11: Samhain Sa Speir

Wed Nov 02, 2011 9:38 pm

Quoting shamrock604 (Reply 13):
Well, it may have the effect of giving EI a much needed kick up the ar*e. If they see US carriers "poaching" their previously served and presumably still on the list routes, they may feel they have no option but to relaunch SFO or LAX to protect their patch.

I agree, it seems odd for UA to be effectively moving into the home base of a 'partner'.
If EI were waiting till 2013 to relaunch then they have been gazzumped
 
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shamrock604
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RE: Irish 22/11: Samhain Sa Speir

Wed Nov 02, 2011 9:40 pm

Quoting tonymctigue (Reply 27):

Tony, I truly believe that in many cases, we get what we deserve.

We have a big problem in this country with blindingly accepting certain narratives. Like for example "Dublin gets everything", "There's a conspiracy against (insert name of area here)", "Every county should have an airport" etc etc.

We do not apply any critical thought to these narratives as a nation, and our politicians are a reflection of it.
 
EIBusiness
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RE: Irish 22/11: Samhain Sa Speir

Thu Nov 03, 2011 10:56 am

Aer Lingus Q3 profits and revenues rise

A very robust performance from EI during Q3 it has to be said.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2011/1103/aerlingus-business.html

Notably, Aer Lingus has stated: Aer Lingus says it expects its full year 2011 operating results, before exceptional items, will be at the upper end of the range of current market expectations.

Therefore, we can take that to be in the range of EUR 22 Million or higher, pre-exceptional items.

The Long Haul performance in particular certainly seems to have turned around in the past six - nine months - which correlates well with improved economic conditions in the United States and for US Corporates when compared with the Eurozone. It also correlates well with the recent traffic stats ex DUB - which have shown a solid rise on North American volumes.

However, that positive momentum is also tempered with the medium term outlook:

http://www.aerlingus.com/media/aerli...orate/EIQ32011IMS_FINAL_031111.pdf

It is too early to provide detailed guidance for 2012. However, the primary factors which are likely to influence trading performance in 2012 will be an expected slowdown in yield growth momentum, low single digit passenger volume increases and higher fuel costs.

New Jobs at Dublin Aerospace

http://www.rte.ie/news/2011/1103/jobs-business.html

All round - some positive news for Irish Aviation this morning.

EIBusiness

[Edited 2011-11-03 04:22:42]
Vivo Per Lei...
 
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OA260
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RE: Irish 22/11: Samhain Sa Speir

Thu Nov 03, 2011 4:32 pm

Probably the big news today and being chatted about on various forums is the IAG/BMI news :

Lufthansa Said to Reach Deal to Sell BMI to British Airways

http://www.businessweek.com/news/201...o-sell-bmi-to-british-airways.html

Undoubtedly this will effect DUB operations and one wonders what will happen.
 
kaitak
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RE: Irish 22/11: Samhain Sa Speir

Thu Nov 03, 2011 6:05 pm

Quoting EIBusiness (Reply 30):
All round - some positive news for Irish Aviation this morning.

Yes, it's nice to see some good news; it's a particularly good result given that the state of the economy can't have helped.

I also see, in another thread, that Amsterdam Airlines, which was mentioned as a likely taker for some older EI A320s, has now gone bust.

Quoting OA260 (Reply 31):
Undoubtedly this will effect DUB operations and one wonders what will happen.

I agree, but I don't think anything will happen for a while, at least until the UK Competition authority goes over this with a fine tooth comb.

It's a pity to see BD go; they were a good airline in their time, but they just completely lost their way.
 
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shamrock604
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RE: Irish 22/11: Samhain Sa Speir

Thu Nov 03, 2011 6:07 pm

Quoting OA260 (Reply 31):

I can see BA returning to DUB to safegaurd their connections. Besides, it's a good route with good profit potential.
 
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OA260
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RE: Irish 22/11: Samhain Sa Speir

Thu Nov 03, 2011 6:15 pm

Quoting kaitak (Reply 32):
I agree, but I don't think anything will happen for a while, at least until the UK Competition authority goes over this with a fine tooth comb.

True there are alot of things to tie up. Staff/fleet/FF program etc... will be interesting to see whats going to happen. Will they take the slots and liquidate the company thus getting rid of obligations or will they integrate it.
I also wonder how BHD will fair out . It would be a big hit to them if those flights were lost. Could we see EI step into BHD for instance.

Quoting shamrock604 (Reply 33):
I can see BA returning to DUB

Id love to see BA back in DUB but I feel they will keep EI/BA Codeshares the way it is.
 
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shamrock604
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RE: Irish 22/11: Samhain Sa Speir

Thu Nov 03, 2011 6:22 pm

I think BA are a different airline now, and can make DUB and BFS work on their own metal. They could not compete with low fares back in the 90's - but they can now.
 
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shamrock350
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RE: Irish 22/11: Samhain Sa Speir

Thu Nov 03, 2011 6:46 pm

Quoting OA260 (Reply 31):
Undoubtedly this will effect DUB operations and one wonders what will happen.

It's a while away yet but it'll be a shame to see the BD brand disappear, I've always held out hope that the British Midland branding would return one day. I'm flying to BSL with them at the end of the month, maybe for the last time.

I don't see BA returning to DUB, I'd love them to but with the British government once again ruling out a 3rd runway and insisting on making airports "better not bigger" the slots will become even more valuable and BA will want to use them to their full potential so I don't see them starting DUB when EI already cover it very well and provide feed.

Quoting OA260 (Reply 34):
I also wonder how BHD will fair out . It would be a big hit to them if those flights were lost. Could we see EI step into BHD for instance.

Belfast might be a little bit different for BA than DUB, I doubt EI would swap BFS for BHD as that would have a negative impact on the rest of the BFS base so BA would either have to go ahead and launch BHD or leave it and let EI increase frequency at BFS leaving the current codeshare agreement as it is. If BA did launch BHD where would that leave EI at BFS, would BA still want to code share when they've got their own metal at BHD?

With all of that going on you've got the EI sale to think about, Mueller is against EI being bought by another airline group as it would jeopardise their neutrality with UA/BA/KL but BA will obviously keep an eye on those developments.
 
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shamrock604
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RE: Irish 22/11: Samhain Sa Speir

Thu Nov 03, 2011 7:11 pm

Quoting shamrock350 (Reply 36):

It's your last point there Kevin which I think is really worth focusing on.

The sheer amount of slots BA would gain, all of which are now used for short haul, would be impossible to utilise at the moment purely on long haul due lack of aircraft. Quite simply, until BA get more long haul aircraft, some slots will need using on short haul routes. BA will want to protect that 10% of revenue and a four a day service in co-operation with EI might be a good way to ensure EI remain on side.
 
Eirules
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RE: Irish 22/11: Samhain Sa Speir

Thu Nov 03, 2011 9:41 pm

If the BA / BD thing works out, then Star will almost certainly have to look at building a lounge at DUB. Between UA, AC, US, LH, SK, LX, TK etc there are up to 13 flights a day from DUB. I have to say I am surprised at LH just throwing away LHR as they are and indeed that Star Alliance are willing to let it happen. It very much becomes a OneWorld airport now with just a token presence from the others (and I know you could say the same of FRA on the flip side)
The way you cut your meat reflects the way you live....
 
BrianDromey
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RE: Irish 22/11: Samhain Sa Speir

Thu Nov 03, 2011 9:56 pm

Quoting shamrock604 (Reply 37):
The sheer amount of slots BA would gain, all of which are now used for short haul, would be impossible to utilise at the moment purely on long haul due lack of aircraft.

There are a few issues, I think. Firstly the vast majority of the slot pairs, as they are currently structured are suitable only for short-haul use. Of course, when assimilated with the larger BA slot pool a huge number of combinations are possible to provide for almost any scheduling requirement BA would have. However, the fact remains that to fully utilise the slots the BA timetable will need a huge overhaul. Bearing in mind limitations in terms of aircraft, crews and ground facilities I predict that this will be a much slower process than many expect and is the main reason that BA will be taking on most of BD aircraft and crews, destinations like MAN, ABZ, EDI, HAJ,DME etc would have their timetables rationalized first, I think, places like DUB and BHD later - which are effectively new destinations to the BA network.

The arrival of BA at DUB and in Belfast does not mean EI and BA can not work together, quite the opposite in fact. I have no evidence, but I suspect that there will be a reshuffle at LHR, if this does come to pass.
T1 - Domestic UK and Ireland service (operated by BA and BD for an interim period)
T3 - As currently.
T5 - All remaining BA service, including any retained mid-haul routes. Bangkok, Barcelona, Gibraltar, Helsinki, Lisbon, Madrid, Singapore, Sydney, Vienna. Additionally, oneworld partners at Terminal Three : American Airlines, Cathay Pacific, Finnair, Iberia, Japan Airlines, LAN, Malev, Qantas, Royal Jordanian, s7 Airlines.

Quoting EIRules (Reply 38):
I have to say I am surprised at LH just throwing away LHR as they are and indeed that Star Alliance are willing to let it happen.

They are absolutely not throwing LHR or the UK market away. The LH group will still have a large presence at LHR, they will be the second largest airline at LHR. There will still be multiple daily service to all key LH group hubs and key destinations, under the LH, LX, SN and OS brands, so the impact to the LH group will be almost nothing, other than a few, loss making, O&D passengers.
 
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shamrock604
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RE: Irish 22/11: Samhain Sa Speir

Thu Nov 03, 2011 10:08 pm

Quoting BrianDromey (Reply 39):
They are absolutely not throwing LHR or the UK market away. The LH group will still have a large presence at LHR, they will be the second largest airline at LHR. There will still be multiple daily service to all key LH group hubs and key destinations, under the LH, LX, SN and OS brands, so the impact to the LH group will be almost nothing, other than a few, loss making, O&D passengers.

I agree here (and with your other points made above).

I think the likes of LH and AF had a big notion of marching into LHR, going up against BA on TATL flights and others.

Experience has taught them that going in a "challenger brand", and especially one linked to another nation not served by the routes selected, is no easy task.

AF tried LAX and JFK - both were a failure. They realised it was better to leverage the US partner for such undertakings rather than doing it under your own brand. I suspect LH has realised the same, even if its vehicle was a Britsh registered airline.

Of course, BA has also been clever with Openskies, and has selected certain higher yielding pairs in AF and KL's territory, while also now steeping up it's efforts to gain feed from Paris, Amsterdam and German cities. It has fought back quite strategically, and I think a realisation has now dawned that perhaps it's best to just stick to your core market.
 
eicvd
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RE: Irish 22/11: Samhain Sa Speir

Fri Nov 04, 2011 1:01 pm

Ive noticed EK are advertising their new route on the some Dublin buses now, cant be long untill they sponsor a major sporting event here to raise their brand awareness even further.
COYBIB
 
Clydenairways
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RE: Irish 22/11: Samhain Sa Speir

Fri Nov 04, 2011 1:31 pm

Quoting eicvd (Reply 41):
cant be long untill they sponsor a major sporting event here to raise their brand awareness even further.


Maybe the "Aviva" stadium will eventually become another "Emirates" stadium.
 
al2637
Posts: 235
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RE: Irish 22/11: Samhain Sa Speir

Fri Nov 04, 2011 3:13 pm

EK branding all over http://www.irishtimes.com/ today
 
BrianDromey
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RE: Irish 22/11: Samhain Sa Speir

Fri Nov 04, 2011 5:04 pm

Quoting shamrock604 (Reply 40):
Of course, BA has also been clever with Openskies, and has selected certain higher yielding pairs in AF and KL's territory, while also now steeping up it's efforts to gain feed from Paris, Amsterdam and German cities.

I dont think EC has been a raring success, tbh, routes and aircraft have been cut. Very few of these experiments have worked to any great success. Some might remember around the time of Open Skies VS promised routes from all over the EU to the US, nothing came of it. The EI/UA thing on MAD-IAD goes to prove that for a non home-market route to work, it needs to be promoted and marketed by a carrier from the region. MAD-IAD has done well, DUB-IAD and the LGW base, not so much. Yet LGW-Ireland has been successful.
 
oneworld77
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RE: Irish 22/11: Samhain Sa Speir

Fri Nov 04, 2011 5:34 pm

Quoting shamrock604 (Reply 37):
The sheer amount of slots BA would gain

Only 8% of slots - not that much of an increase.

Quoting BrianDromey (Reply 39):
T5 - All remaining BA service, including any retained mid-haul routes. Bangkok, Barcelona, Gibraltar, Helsinki, Lisbon, Madrid, Singapore, Sydney, Vienna. Additionally, oneworld partners at Terminal Three : American Airlines, Cathay Pacific, Finnair, Iberia, Japan Airlines, LAN, Malev, Qantas, Royal Jordanian, s7 Airlines.

Not so sure about that - I doubt T5 has all of that capacity. The truth will be somewhere between. The irony, of course, is that now BA will be a 3 terminal operation!! Indeed T4 is the only terminal with a modicum of availability, they could go a full hand and op CIS and regional MENA (by that I mean ALY, MCT, DMM, RUH, RAK etc) from T4; Current ops in T5, Current ops in T3 and ROI, UK &NI from T1!! It will allow them a say on each Terminal working group including the Terminal East one!
Flown - EI;BA;RE;FR;WW;TW;TS;US;JP;JT;AT;QF;JQ;VB;NC;TR;D7;AA;IB;AF;SN;LX;SR;LH;AY;CX;CP;9K;9W;IX;AI;IC;EK;EY;GF;QR;BE;N
 
BrianDromey
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RE: Irish 22/11: Samhain Sa Speir

Fri Nov 04, 2011 5:45 pm

Quoting Reply 45):
Not so sure about that - I doubt T5 has all of that capacity. The truth will be somewhere between. The irony, of course, is that now BA will be a 3 terminal operation!!

Sorry, I cut and pasted in the wrong terminal! It should have read as follows

T1 - Domestic UK and ROI Services
T3 - Pretty much as is right now, BKK, BCN, GIB, HEL, LIS, MAD, SIN, SYD, VIE. Additionally, oneworld partners at Terminal Three : AA, CX, AY, IB, JL, LA (and likely TAM), MA, QF, RJ, S7
T5 - All remaining BA service, including any retained mid-haul routes, there is likely to be some excess capacity at T5.
In that scenario there would be some additional capacity in T5, but it is probably the neatest and cheapest solution, as BAA have just finished reshuffling all the airlines at LHR. I don't think there would be room for the remains of the BD operation at T3, certainly not at T5. This would be an interim step while Heathrow East is being constructed, then the reshuffle will happen all over again!
 
oneworld77
Posts: 64
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RE: Irish 22/11: Samhain Sa Speir

Fri Nov 04, 2011 5:57 pm

..roll on T6!! With all of OW (including a resurgent EI)!!!.
Flown - EI;BA;RE;FR;WW;TW;TS;US;JP;JT;AT;QF;JQ;VB;NC;TR;D7;AA;IB;AF;SN;LX;SR;LH;AY;CX;CP;9K;9W;IX;AI;IC;EK;EY;GF;QR;BE;N
 
teahan
Posts: 4994
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RE: Irish 22/11: Samhain Sa Speir

Fri Nov 04, 2011 6:36 pm

Aeroflot back to Dublin? Apparently the airline applied for and received permission for a 3 weekly Moscow - Dublin - Moscow. I remember seeing their Tu-134s in Dublin in the 1990s so it would be quite nice to see them back with shiny new A320s.

http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=1369315&page=5
Goodbye SR-LX MD-11 / 6th of March 1991 to the 31st of October 2004
 
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shamrock604
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RE: Irish 22/11: Samhain Sa Speir

Fri Nov 04, 2011 6:45 pm

Quoting BrianDromey (Reply 44):

That's sort of what I was getting at Brian, I just didnt explain myself very well.

EC has'nt been a runaway success, but it has succeeded in draining just enough yield from AF to be an effective warning. Equally, all sides have experienced that perhaps its best to stick to your home market.

Quoting Reply 45):

8% of 600 daily departure slots is a lot of extra slots in anyone's language.

Quoting teahan (Reply 48):

I'd heard a murmur of this. SU are codesharing to more UK destinations now on the AF/KL network. I guess looking across the sea to us is a natural evolution of that. Would be great to see them back!

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