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RE: Irish 22/11: Samhain Sa Speir

Tue Nov 08, 2011 9:30 pm

Quoting EIBusiness (Reply 94):
Additionally, as I added previously - it's all very well announcing new routes, but it's the overall net annual change in traffic volumes that are important, and it's quite obvious that with no net increase in capacity, that we won't be seeing any positive implications from the newly announced abovementioned route in this regard.

If the IAD-DUB flight is year-round then it will be a net positive change in available seat miles into Ireland as the 2nd dailyl EWR-DUB was only a Summer seasonal service.
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iRISH251
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RE: Irish 22/11: Samhain Sa Speir

Tue Nov 08, 2011 10:14 pm

Last night RTE showed a well-made documentary about the 1972 crash near LHR of BEA Trident G-ARPI, in which 118 people died. The focus was on the 12 top Irish businessmen who died in the accident. It's worth watching and is available on RTE Player: http://www.rte.ie/player/#!v=1120620
 
EI564
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RE: Irish 22/11: Samhain Sa Speir

Tue Nov 08, 2011 10:17 pm

And it can only help Ireland Inc to have a direct link to Washington DC. We can sacrifice a little bit of the New York capacity for that.
 
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AmricanShamrok
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RE: Irish 22/11: Samhain Sa Speir

Tue Nov 08, 2011 10:54 pm

Quoting OA260 (Reply 98):
Do Limerick people not travel to DXB?

I'm sure "we" do but it seems it would make more sense to travel from Shannon via London or Manchester with a short connection than drive/bus/train it to Dublin and transfer to the airport.

Quoting Phen (Reply 99):
I don't mean to be insulting and point out the obvious but you can't fly direct SNN-DXB anyway?

No but you could go through LHR/MAN etc. which would probably be easier and take just as much time as going from Dublin.

The point I'm getting at is Limerick-DUB-DXB is more or less the same as SNN-LHR-DXB/SNN-MAN-DXB/SNN-BHX-DXB/SNN-LGW-DXB timewise and probably pricewise too when everything is factored in. People should support and use their local airports. I actually get fierce frustrated when I hear of people using DUB when there's (most likely) just as handy a solution. I'll say again it's not EK's fault - it just set me off. If the people don't get behind their airport it will continue on a downward trend  
 
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shamrock604
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RE: Irish 22/11: Samhain Sa Speir

Tue Nov 08, 2011 11:16 pm

Quoting Reply 100):
If the IAD-DUB flight is year-round then it will be a net positive change in available seat miles into Ireland as the 2nd dailyl EWR-DUB was only a Summer seasonal service.

The second service was usually operated for most of the winter season too. It was only reduced since last winter, and even then operated for most of the winter scheduling season. This year, it does not operate at all strangely enough! So, yes, over the whole year, this a gain in capacity on current levels.

Quoting AmricanShamrok (Reply 103):
I'm sure "we" do but it seems it would make more sense to travel from Shannon via London or Manchester with a short connection than drive/bus/train it to Dublin and transfer to the airport.

Hardly. I can do SNN - DUB in about 1hr 45. Sad to say, its faster just going from DUB.

Are people not actually glad that we can avail of direct long haul services from this country, or does it always have to be about a region?

Would you not think its better to keep the traffic in the country for the good of Ireland inc rather than export it to the UK and keep their planes full, thus rendering Ireland's links less utilised?
 
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RE: Irish 22/11: Samhain Sa Speir

Tue Nov 08, 2011 11:21 pm

Quoting AmricanShamrok (Reply 103):
I'm sure "we" do but it seems it would make more sense to travel from Shannon via London or Manchester with a short connection than drive/bus/train it to Dublin and transfer to the airport.

Well that depends where in Limerick you live? I would say it would be a shorter overall journey to drive to DUB, rather than drive to SNN and get a connecting flight, assuming you leave sufficient connecting time at the intermediate airport. There are no stresses about your bag getting lost and making connections.

Quoting AmricanShamrok (Reply 103):
I actually get fierce frustrated when I hear of people using DUB when there's (most likely) just as handy a solution. I'll say again it's not EK's fault - it just set me off. If the people don't get behind their airport it will continue on a downward trend  

It winds me up to see people preach one thing and practice another. Yes people should support their own airport, but you yourself are happy to take an indirect routing over the direct route. So which is it? Direct routes to final destinations or routes to hubs? Airports with limited catchments and fierce competition from nearby alternatives can't have it both ways.
 
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RE: Irish 22/11: Samhain Sa Speir

Tue Nov 08, 2011 11:37 pm

Quoting shamrock604 (Reply 104):
Would you not think its better to keep the traffic in the country for the good of Ireland inc rather than export it to the UK and keep their planes full, thus rendering Ireland's links less utilised?

Yes but if everyone had that attitude then the rest of our airports would be useless. Dublin Airport's location is hardly ideal either - I know I'd prefer a connecting flight from somewhere to Shannon or Kerry (if I'm at home-home i.e. not in Limerick city) than face a two-hour drive after a longhaul flight. I recently flew to Berlin with the routing SNN-MAN-SXF and SXF-DUB-KIR purely based on this reasoning (and my own stubborn-ness! - TR to follow). I refuse to do ever go O&D from Dublin with two fine airports on my doorstep.
 
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RE: Irish 22/11: Samhain Sa Speir

Tue Nov 08, 2011 11:49 pm

Quoting AmricanShamrok (Reply 103):
No but you could go through LHR/MAN etc.

I think we all understand where you're coming from but realistically very few aside from the staunch SNN supporters would rather connect to an EK flight in MAN or LHR (plus having to collect your baggage, possibly change terminals and re-check in again) than get the direct from DUB. The distance between DUB and SNN really isnt big enough to make an indirect option worthwhile. I think its great to see the new service advertised that far down the country - DUB/SNN/ORK have to compete with each other. If SNN can come up with a competitive alternative to DUB-DXB and advertise it in Leinster then good luck to them.  
 
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RE: Irish 22/11: Samhain Sa Speir

Wed Nov 09, 2011 12:08 am

Quoting AmricanShamrok (Reply 106):
Yes but if everyone had that attitude then the rest of our airports would be useless. Dublin Airport's location is hardly ideal either - I know I'd prefer a connecting flight from somewhere to Shannon or Kerry (if I'm at home-home i.e. not in Limerick city) than face a two-hour drive after a longhaul flight. I recently flew to Berlin with the routing SNN-MAN-SXF and SXF-DUB-KIR purely based on this reasoning (and my own stubborn-ness! - TR to follow). I refuse to do ever go O&D from Dublin with two fine airports on my doorstep.

Unfortuntaly, people do have that attitude, and for them, the value equation means they prefer to just go to DUB. It's unfortunate but it is the way it is.

Quoting Phen (Reply 107):
I think we all understand where you're coming from but realistically very few aside from the staunch SNN supporters would rather connect to an EK flight in MAN or LHR (plus having to collect your baggage, possibly change terminals and re-check in again) than get the direct from DUB. The distance between DUB and SNN really isnt big enough to make an indirect option worthwhile. I think its great to see the new service advertised that far down the country - DUB/SNN/ORK have to compete with each other. If SNN can come up with a competitive alternative to DUB-DXB and advertise it in Leinster then good luck to them.

Spot on. People in other countries would laugh at us if we really thought a two hour drive was so outlandish to access direct long haul air travel.
 
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RE: Irish 22/11: Samhain Sa Speir

Wed Nov 09, 2011 5:54 am

Moving swiftly along from a possibly re-ignited SNN v the rest of the world arguement  

Some more good news  

"SAS, meanwhile, will add capacity next year from Dublin to Copenhagen, Stockholm and Oslo.

Its Stockholm service will go daily next summer while larger aircraft will be deployed on the Copenhagen and Oslo routes.

“2011 has so far shown a positive result for SAS in Ireland, with a 6 per cent increase in passenger numbers,” Alan Sparling, Ireland manager at SAS, said yesterday.

“We anticipate the increase in leisure travel from Ireland to Scandinavia to continue in 2012, hence why we’re putting more seats into the market.”

Separately, Dubai-based Emirates will today unveil “early bird” fares for a number of destinations that it will be offering from Ireland from January 9th.

The airline will offer economy-class return fares, including taxes, to Dubai from €505, Durban from €689, Perth from €905 and Mumbai from €445"

From the Irish times.
 
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RE: Irish 22/11: Samhain Sa Speir

Wed Nov 09, 2011 8:07 am

Quoting AmricanShamrok (Reply 103):
I'm sure "we" do but it seems it would make more sense to travel from Shannon via London or Manchester with a short connection than drive/bus/train it to Dublin and transfer to the airport.

I guess it all depends on the individual. If going to DXB it doesnt make sense to fly to LHR and then wait for two to three hours when you can drive in the comfort of your own car or take the Bus Eireann connection then fly direct. Im sure a family would rather drive to DUB rather than trawl their kids around LHR.

Quoting shamrock604 (Reply 109):
Its Stockholm service will go daily next summer while larger aircraft will be deployed on the Copenhagen and Oslo routes.

Great news. Ive just booked some SK J flights and look forward to seeing the current SK product offering. Always had good flights on them so hoping its good.

Quoting shamrock604 (Reply 109):
Dubai from €505

Not bad but not amazing either. There are cheaper options. I would have loved to see some EUR399 inaugural fares although by reports Im hearing they dont need to offer any specials.
 
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RE: Irish 22/11: Samhain Sa Speir

Wed Nov 09, 2011 8:41 am

Another interesting point about the above is that every carrier of note in DUB is growing - bar one.

Oh, one could speculate..... 
 
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RE: Irish 22/11: Samhain Sa Speir

Wed Nov 09, 2011 10:10 am

Quoting Phen (Reply 99):
I don't mean to be insulting and point out the obvious but you can't fly direct SNN-DXB anyway? What exactly is the problem with DUB-DXB being advertised in Limerick?

I was going to say I really don't see the problem. It is a route that is not served from SNN and although there may be a slight knock on effect in terms of SNN-LHR regarding connecting traffic, I cannot imagine it is anything too substantial. I would prefer that the route is a success as it is good to see the selection of long haul airlines improving even though we are in recession. Incidentally, I've also noticed ads for DUB-DXB posted on the Moneenageisha junction in Galway where previously FR, WX, SQ and the SAA themselves frequently advertise.

Quoting shamrock604 (Reply 104):
I'll say again it's not EK's fault - it just set me off. If the people don't get behind their airport it will continue on a downward trend

I do agree that there are a lot of hypocrites in and around the SNN catchement. They whine and moan about loosing services but often opt for flights from DUB often to save less than €100 on the airfare. I remember talking to a friend of mine a few years back who was absolutely infuriated over EI pulling SNN-LHR but in the same sentence revealed that he was due to fly to Boston the following week, routing DUB-LHR with EI and connecting to AA fro LHR-BOS! Bad enough he didn't just use the EI SNN-BOS service, he didn't even opt for using SNN-LHR to make the first leg of his journey. Listen up people of the West, if you want to keep air services, then you better use them! You may have to pay a small premium to do so but convenience comes at a cost. People pay for convenience every time they buy a pint of milk in a corner store rather than a supermarket and never complain about it so why should air travel be anything different. If you want to drive to DUB then by all means do so but don't moan when airlines cut services.

Quoting BrianDromey (Reply 105):
Hardly. I can do SNN - DUB in about 1hr 45. Sad to say, its faster just going from DUB.

If you drove from SNN to DUB in 1hr 45mins, I can safely say you weren't travelling at the speed you're supposed to travel at  . It is 2hrs from the Limerick Tunnel to the Red Cow doing exactly 120km/h the whole way.

Quoting Phen (Reply 107):
If SNN can come up with a competitive alternative to DUB-DXB and advertise it in Leinster then good luck to them.

That is one of my biggest criticisms of the SAA. They still only target the Northern end of Munster and the very Sourthern end of Connaught. It seems as if they don't realise that the motorway network not only goes to Dublin but also works in reverse. DUB, SNN and ORK are arguable equally accessible from the larger Leinster towns such as Portlaoise, Kildare and Naas. Yet I would be willing to bet that anyone in these areas looking to fly hardly even know where SNN is. You can be sure that the commuter towns around Dublin account for a fairly sizeable chunk of the passenger throughput at DUB and is surely is something that the SAA should be chasing big time. I know if I were in charge, I would be targeting every town along the N7 right up to the Red Cow. So what if it is in the DUB catchment.

On this subject, I've often wondered how much of DUB's passengers are actually travelling to or from Dublin? Given that Dublin accounts for 1/3 the population of the country and lets say for arguments sake it was the only airport in Ireland, then one would expect that about 40-50% of the passengers would be to and from Dublin being a capital city in all and the other 50-60% would be to all other regions. Accounting for the fact that we do have other airports, each serving their own region up to a point thereby reducing the percentage of passengers travelling to and from other regions, I would be surprised if the percentage of passengers using DUB who are actually travelling to and from Dublin is anything more than 50 to 60%. It would be interesting to find this out because it would give us an idea of how much of the footfall at DUB is up for grabs by other airports with SNN and ORK standing to gain the most as they are located on the motorway network whereas KIR and NOC are a bit more removed. If I were in charge, this is the kind of market research I would do starting Day 1 and design my promotion campaign accordingly.
Airports: SNN GWY NOC DUB ORK BOS EWR JFK ORD MCI BOI SEA LHR STN CDG LYS FAO GVA HKG MEL ADL HBA
 
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RE: Irish 22/11: Samhain Sa Speir

Wed Nov 09, 2011 10:39 am

Quoting tonymctigue (Reply 112):
On this subject, I've often wondered how much of DUB's passengers are actually travelling to or from Dublin? Given that Dublin accounts for 1/3 the population of the country and lets say for arguments sake it was the only airport in Ireland, then one would expect that about 40-50% of the passengers would be to and from Dublin being a capital city in all and the other 50-60% would be to all other regions. Accounting for the fact that we do have other airports, each serving their own region up to a point thereby reducing the percentage of passengers travelling to and from other regions, I would be surprised if the percentage of passengers using DUB who are actually travelling to and from Dublin is anything more than 50 to 60%. It would be interesting to find this out because it would give us an idea of how much of the footfall at DUB is up for grabs by other airports with SNN and ORK standing to gain the most as they are located on the motorway network whereas KIR and NOC are a bit more removed. If I were in charge, this is the kind of market research I would do starting Day 1 and design my promotion campaign accordingly.

Bigger problem is that, like it or not, Ireland gravitates to Dublin. Michael O'Leary in a dail interview about shannon stated that people from Nenagh dont even think of Shannon, and go directly to dublin, even though Shannon is nearer and cheaper.

I once sat beside someone on a SNN DUB A330 from JFK who lived in Mountrath. He was flying JFK SNN DUB to drive down to Mountrath. I queried why he didnt get off the plane in Shannon and drive up, and he admitted that he never thought of that. Duh!

Dublin, being the capital has the business traffic (yields) and inbound attractiveness that SNN or ORK doesnt have either - similar to LHR vs MAN.
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sawtooth
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RE: Irish 22/11: Samhain Sa Speir

Wed Nov 09, 2011 10:39 am

Quoting shamrock604 (Reply 108):
Unfortuntaly, people do have that attitude, and for them, the value equation means they prefer to just go to DUB. It's unfortunate but it is the way it is.

I can see both sides of the argument, where possible I'll search for options from local airports as I value their existence and find them more convenient to use when practical.

But for many people the uncertainty and risk added by taking a connecting flight can be a deal breaker, and usually it's just safer head to DUB where you'll be taken care of by the longhaul airline should there be any problems.
 
oneworld77
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RE: Irish 22/11: Samhain Sa Speir

Wed Nov 09, 2011 10:41 am

Quoting tonymctigue (Reply 112):
It would be interesting to find this out because it would give us an idea of how much of the footfall at DUB is up for grabs by other airports with SNN and ORK standing to gain the most as they are located on the motorway network whereas KIR and NOC are a bit more removed. If I were in charge, this is the kind of market research I would do starting Day 1 and design my promotion campaign accordingly.

But what will that lead to?

A 14x weekly service from XX to DUB leads to a thrice weekly service into SNN/ORK/NOC etc. Will they be at the right time? Will the company pay for that extra nights accommodation so as to 'fit' with the operating flights? Or will they just pay for their resource (which they're paying for anyway) to take the more conveniently timed/more frequent service to Dublin and travel to the region?
DUB is the capital. Look at the hysterical LONDON AIRWAYS jibes at BA over the water.

If I'm based in South Wales and I need to get to the far east (either work or hols) I will be paid/take leave to drive to LHR or maybe BHX to get to where I need to go. This is due to frequency, cost, choice and fitting the flights around me and not around the airline.(Unless I'm going to somewhere obscure). I may use CWL for AMS or CDG and DUB flights and I may use BRS for BRU flights, but there is always something even with these that means I need to use a larger airport.

How do you know that your friends flight to BOS wasn't more than a e100 difference in fare? How do you know that the timings ex SNN direct didn't mean that he would hit the rush hour in BOS or miss the bus to Cape Cod or get stuck in traffic? For me, I will be in Wales for XMas and looking to spend NYE in NYC. EI are charging £1010 approx for 1 pax ex CWL whereas if I drive 2 hours to LHR or take the train for 3 I can get it for less than £380 on 3 difference airlines with a choice of 5 timings, direct. Which do you think I am going to use? I want to support my 'local' airport but a £600/£700 premium? That's next years holiday flights paid for alone!!!

Quoting tonymctigue (Reply 112):
You can be sure that the commuter towns around Dublin account for a fairly sizeable chunk of the passenger throughput at DUB and is surely is something that the SAA should be chasing big time.

Unless SNN starts offering much much much cheaper fares for leisure and much much much better frequency for business, why would these people travel from Naas to SNN? More choice, more frequency, less cost at DUB.
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RE: Irish 22/11: Samhain Sa Speir

Wed Nov 09, 2011 11:38 am

Quoting Reply 115):
How do you know that your friends flight to BOS wasn't more than a e100 difference in fare?

Because he told me so! He was also driving to DUB rather than getting the bus which means he spent at least €50 of that €100 saving on pertrol and probably the remaining €50 on parking for a week. He also was on leisure travel to Boston and the AA flight arrived around the same time EI 133 arrived because I looked it up on the internet. You also have the added inconcenience of not preclearing US Immigration in SNN so you're facing a much longer ordeal when you arrive. You can argue it any way you want but you will always come to the same conclusion that although the fare was a bit higher, SNN-BOS with EI was all round better value for money. He himself agreed with me once I pointed out all these facts! And before you sway it, this was back in the day when SNN-BOS was daily year round!

Anyhow, those are minor details and at best is anacedotal evidence of a one-off occurance. The point of my arguemnt is the whole hyprocacy of giving out about loosing SNN-LHR and yet not supporting his local airport because he made a slight saving on his air fare. If he practiced what he preached, he would have done what he always does and booked from his local airport regardless of a slightly higher fare. The very least he could have done is use SNN-LHR for the first leg of his journey.

Quoting Reply 115):
Unless SNN starts offering much much much cheaper fares for leisure and much much much better frequency for business, why would these people travel from Naas to SNN? More choice, more frequency, less cost at DUB.

You're actually arguning on my behalf in that I blame the SAA for not making any attempt to make SNN a realistic alternative to DUB for such
Airports: SNN GWY NOC DUB ORK BOS EWR JFK ORD MCI BOI SEA LHR STN CDG LYS FAO GVA HKG MEL ADL HBA
 
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RE: Irish 22/11: Samhain Sa Speir

Wed Nov 09, 2011 11:39 am

Quoting Phen (Reply 107):
I think we all understand where you're coming from but realistically very few aside from the staunch SNN supporters would rather connect to an EK flight in MAN or LHR

Unfortunately this is true. They're aren't much like me who holds these values.

Quoting tonymctigue (Reply 112):
I remember talking to a friend of mine a few years back who was absolutely infuriated over EI pulling SNN-LHR but in the same sentence revealed that he was due to fly to Boston the following week, routing DUB-LHR with EI and connecting to AA fro LHR-BOS! Bad enough he didn't just use the EI SNN-BOS service, he didn't even opt for using SNN-LHR to make the first leg of his journey.

This is becomming very common these days. A friend of mine is studying abroad in France and flies DUB-STN-TUF. "Why don't you fly Shannon-Stansted-Tours?" I asked, and she couldn't give me a straight answer. It's probably because DUB offers more choice and more competition between airlines and therefore, cheaper fares that people automatically think of Dublin first without giving second thought to a more convenient option from their local airport.
 
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RE: Irish 22/11: Samhain Sa Speir

Wed Nov 09, 2011 12:10 pm

Quoting tonymctigue (Reply 116):
You're actually arguning on my behalf in that I blame the SAA for not making any attempt to make SNN a realistic alternative to DUB for such

Haha, I think what I'm saying is that one would be setting up SNN for a fall, since the capital will draw the focus, not the 'regional' (I don't mean that in a patronising way, honest!!) airport. There current marketing seems right, if a Mountrath resident isn't even thinking of SNN.

Unless they get a QR or CX etc, then that would be something to stick on the M50 Airport Exit!!!
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RE: Irish 22/11: Samhain Sa Speir

Wed Nov 09, 2011 4:50 pm

Quoting Reply 118):
Haha, I think what I'm saying is that one would be setting up SNN for a fall, since the capital will draw the focus, not the 'regional' (I don't mean that in a patronising way, honest!!) airport. There current marketing seems right, if a Mountrath resident isn't even thinking of SNN.

Unless they get a QR or CX etc, then that would be something to stick on the M50 Airport Exit!!!

It is very much of a chicken vs the egg situation. If, (and before someone jumps down my throat, I'm speaking purely hypothetically) SNN or ORK for that matter were ever to attract a CX or QR, then there is much to be done to lay the foundations for a bold move like that. If I were in charge, I would look at this as a three stage process and would need the guts of 10 to 15 years to implement (i.e. no politicians need apply! Sound, rational minded, educated people motivated by a business success rather than collecting votes).

Firstly, the SAA need to stem the exodus of carriers and routes from the airport and consolidate their position. The most obvious way to to that is increase the passenger throughput. The closure of GWY will be of some benefit but more from a marketing point of view to potential new operators who are looking at the level of competition in the region. I would expect any additional passengers to and from SNN from GWY will be almost insignificant. The more obvious way however to improve the throughput at SNN is to expand the reaches of its catchment, something that is much easier nowadays than ever. Like was said, cars can drive both ways on the motorways and if DUB is "stealing" passengers from our regionals because of the motorways then there is nothing to stop the reverse from happening if the right strategy is implemented. The fact that a Mountrath resident isn't even thinking of SNN is a kudos to DUB and the airlines serving it but an obvious lack of oversight by the SAA. Of course they're not going to look at SNN if the don't know who flies there, where they fly to and most of all, if they somehow still think it is in some obscure backarse of nowhere place that is hard to get to it. So, the SAA should design an advertising campaign do the following:

1) Advertise the airlines that fly there and the routes on offer
2) Emphasise the convenience of SNN as opposed to DUB by showing driving times, distances, check in times and the other conveniences of using smaller airports
3) Demonstrate the potential savings on offer not only in terms of air fare but overall cost of trip including getting to and from there

This of course will involve stepping on some toes and will be difficult since the DAA and SAA are effectively one and the same and one of the arguments that proponents of an autonomous SNN (of which I'm not one) use on a regular basis. There should also be a campaign designed to draw passengers from oversees. Those who are looking at Ireland and trying to decide which parts they would like to visit. Remember FR did manage to put through over 2 million passengers at the height of their operation. I know it was unsustainable and very poor yielding traffic but it was there. The biggest criticism of the FR base is it failed to bring any significant amount of inbound traffic, mainly because like those in the midlands, most of them didn't know where SNN was and what there was on offer in the region. Again an advertising campaign in the destinations served from SNN could potentially bring in more passengers rather than relying solely on feed from the SNN end of things.

Secondly, the once their position has been consolidated, then the SAA have some bargaining power. They will have data to prove passenger numbers are growing and they are coming from new markets. It will be a hell of alot easier to convince new airlines that routes are viable from there if existing routes are performing. The first stage of route development should be growth of existing services in terms of frequency and/or aircraft size. The second stage should be focused on a few of the more obvious short haul routes to larger hub airports such as CDG, AMS and FRA, preferably on the hub operators at these airports. Again, a slow steady approach is best rather than the FR like bubble that existed in the last decade.

Finally, once SNN has proven itself capable of competing with DUB for passengers to destinations served from both airports, then they can look at the holy grail of new markets from Ireland with big legacy carriers such as CX, SQ, QR, etc.

As I said, this is all hyopthetical and there are alot of ifs and buts but if I were in charge, that would be my business strategy.
Airports: SNN GWY NOC DUB ORK BOS EWR JFK ORD MCI BOI SEA LHR STN CDG LYS FAO GVA HKG MEL ADL HBA
 
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RE: Irish 22/11: Samhain Sa Speir

Wed Nov 09, 2011 5:46 pm

I wonder if there are fundamental issues with SNN, which are beyond the ability of the SAA/DAA on their own to do anything about. The central issue may well be that the hinterland served by SNN is just too small in population to support a significant number of routes; depopulation and the inability of the depleted area to support businesses and therefore employment, leading to a vicous downward circle ... these are not issues that the SAA can do much about.

Immigration is never a popular subject in a time of economic downturn, but I wonder if it would be an idea to encourage "focused" immigration, aimed at "seeding" depopulated counties with immigrant populations, particularly those with capital to invest in businesses.
 
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RE: Irish 22/11: Samhain Sa Speir

Wed Nov 09, 2011 6:23 pm

Quoting kaitak (Reply 120):

The Mid west area is not really depopulating though - while it's a widely held truism, the last census blew that notion out of the water. The area also has the highest income per head outside of greater Dublin. The issue is simply the former. The catchment is too small.


We've been through it all a billion times. Yes, there's room for growth - but the wider aeropolitical situation in Ireland is holding Shannon hostage. Until "the stars re-align" and FR's interests coincide with SNN's interest's again, there wont be major growth at SNN. FR have warned anyone else that this is their territory, so no one will touch it with a barge pole except EIR who probably have reached the limit of what they can do in the present economy.

It's a sad fact. A certain carrier has Ireland inc by the balls. Even DUB - they are the only major airline still cutting throughput despite having what we are told is the most robust business model.

Great for them to have that kind of bargaining power - and great for Ireland in a boom, but not in a recession.
 
ein105
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RE: Irish 22/11: Samhain Sa Speir

Wed Nov 09, 2011 6:26 pm

With all this talk of SNN and the Middles East, I wonder could ORK or SNN attract TK? They've a load of aircraft arriving and are aiming to mirror EKs operation, but connect smaller unserved cities with their smaller aircraft? I'm not sure about SNN, but certainly ORK should be aiming towards attracting TK
 
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shamrock604
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RE: Irish 22/11: Samhain Sa Speir

Wed Nov 09, 2011 6:39 pm

Quoting ein105 (Reply 122):

I was thinking just the same last night!

While TK are happy with their DUB route, they say that our visa situation is hampering their growth. Unless that changes, it may discourage them from looking at ORK and SNN.

I could see ORK gaining that service first though.
 
Eagleboy
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RE: Irish 22/11: Samhain Sa Speir

Wed Nov 09, 2011 8:15 pm

Quoting Reply 115):
EI are charging £1010 approx for 1 pax ex CWL whereas if I drive 2 hours to LHR or take the train for 3 I can get it for less than £380 on 3 difference airlines with a choice of 5 timings, direct.

That is a shocking difference.
 
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ClassicLover
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RE: Irish 22/11: Samhain Sa Speir

Wed Nov 09, 2011 10:39 pm

Quoting IRISH251 (Reply 101):
Last night RTE showed a well-made documentary about the 1972 crash near LHR of BEA Trident G-ARPI, in which 118 people died. The focus was on the 12 top Irish businessmen who died in the accident. It's worth watching and is available on RTE Player: http://www.rte.ie/player/#!v=1120620

Thanks for sharing that - just watched it there. Very sad stuff!
I do enjoy a spot of flying, especially when it's not in economy!
 
harpandshamrock
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RE: Irish 22/11: Samhain Sa Speir

Wed Nov 09, 2011 10:54 pm

Quoting shamrock604 (Reply 108):
Unfortuntaly, people do have that attitude, and for them, the value equation means they prefer to just go to DUB. It's unfortunate but it is the way it is.

So many times when I lived in Cork I'd save a bit of cash by using DUB rather than ORK for my flights to the UK, and each time I'd swear I'd never do it again....................until I'd go to look up prices for my next trip   . Even now I live in the UK I haven't changed, only last week I saved £40 by flying to DUB and getting the train down to Cork instead of taking the direct flight (it was Jazz Weekend in Cork).

(Rather ironically that £40 I saved I'm using on my next return trip, where I'm flying direct to ORK on the way over, but coming back through DUB on the way back on EI so I can finally use T2, but that's purely for transport enthusiast reasons  )
2011 so far: LX (4), FR (2), EI (2), BE (2) - 4004 miles
 
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shamrock604
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RE: Irish 22/11: Samhain Sa Speir

Wed Nov 09, 2011 11:13 pm

Quoting ClassicLover (Reply 125):
Quoting IRISH251 (Reply 101):
Last night RTE showed a well-made documentary about the 1972 crash near LHR of BEA Trident G-ARPI, in which 118 people died. The focus was on the 12 top Irish businessmen who died in the accident. It's worth watching and is available on RTE Player: http://www.rte.ie/player/#!v=1120620

Thanks for sharing that - just watched it there. Very sad stuff!

My Aunt who lived in Staines, a town beside LHR, at that time, witnessed the crash. She was petrified of flying right up until her death. The sight of it crashing to earth never left her.
 
sawtooth
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RE: Irish 22/11: Samhain Sa Speir

Thu Nov 10, 2011 10:18 am

Government to announce a sevearly reduced capital spending plan today. Wonder if any aviation related projects are included. Major projects such as Metro and Dart Underground which would have had a major impact on DUB are to be "postponed" as long rumored. Some of the planned motorway projects such as M17/18/20 would also be of benefit to access to ORK/SNN/NOC if they go ahead.

Looks like further cuts to airport subsidy down the line also, interesting that the Minister has been including SNN and ORK with regionals when discussing airports policy recently ...

Quote:
MINISTER FOR Transport Leo Varadkar said yesterday that he wants to phase out subsidies for regional airports. Mr Varadkar said it was “political cowardice that it was ever allowed to happen” that there is an airport for every county down the west and south coasts. “We have a ridiculous situation where we have an airport if you follow the coastline: one in Donegal, one in Mayo, one in Galway, one in Shannon covering Limerick and Clare, another in Kerry, another one in Cork and another in Waterford.”

He said: “What do you think happened? None of them were making any money. They were all losing a lot of money and expecting to be covered by the taxpayer in the case of the regional airports, or the DAA in the case of the State airports.”

Mr Varadkar added: “That is not really an aviation policy at all, it was political cowardice that it was ever allowed to happen.”

“The operational subsidy will be phased out over time,” he added. “There is evidence that some of the regional airports can do it. Kerry has money in the bank and almost makes a profit, Knock almost makes a profit as things stand.
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/...eland/2011/1110/1224307309651.html

[Edited 2011-11-10 02:36:45]
 
BestWestern
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RE: Irish 22/11: Samhain Sa Speir

Thu Nov 10, 2011 10:25 am

Quoting tonymctigue (Reply 119):
The fact that a Mountrath resident isn't even thinking of SNN is a kudos to DUB and the airlines serving it but an obvious lack of oversight by the SAA.

Its more of a fact that people gravitate to Dublin.

Quoting tonymctigue (Reply 119):
they can look at the holy grail of new markets from Ireland with big legacy carriers such as CX, SQ, QR, etc.

This will never, ever happen.

Quoting sawtooth (Reply 128):
“What do you think happened? None of them were making any money. They were all losing a lot of money and expecting to be covered by the taxpayer in the case of the regional airports, or the DAA in the case of the State airports.”

Reality sets in.
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AmricanShamrok
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RE: Irish 22/11: Samhain Sa Speir

Thu Nov 10, 2011 10:55 am

Quoting sawtooth (Reply 128):
M17/18

I thought the M18 was finished no? Or are they planning to extend it from SNN (N19) to Limerick where it's currently dual carraigeway 100km/h?
 
oneworld77
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RE: Irish 22/11: Samhain Sa Speir

Thu Nov 10, 2011 11:03 am

Quoting Eagleboy (Reply 124):
That is a shocking difference.

I know, and is no reflection on EI, but a reflection on CWL, a similar situation to many regional airports in Ireland, whereby at this point EI and KL are the only 'legacy' carriers left (There is BE with an AF codeshare to CDG). I spend the week in LON but CWL is where the hearth is (DUB is where the heart is, but....!) so I understand both sides of the argument and can see why DUB should and is attracting the new carriers, similar to LON.

I can think of only one occassion when I flew ex CWL on a European flight for work, on a Sunday night/Monday morning. All the other times, it makes sense for me to use the choice that LON provides.

Quoting Bestwestern (Reply 129):
This will never, ever happen.

Never say Never!! I do think that SNN may have the opportunity in the future, but unshackling from DAA and very very aggressive deals and marketing would be required. Look at how LGW has grown since BAA has been heaved. I think for ORK and SNN, EDI will be an interesting one to follow as it is a regional airport (although a devolved capital).

Ireland provides a unique opportunity in terms of pre-clearance and tax rates, Greece and Italy are envious of what we have! I know it doesn't feel like it, but them's my thoughts!!

Quoting sawtooth (Reply 128):
“We have a ridiculous situation where we have an airport if you follow the coastline: one in Donegal, one in Mayo, one in Galway, one in Shannon covering Limerick and Clare, another in Kerry, another one in Cork and another in Waterford.”

It wasn't ridiculous back in the day. Less than 10 years ago I flew into GWY from GLA as it was the best and fastest connection at the time. Now when I visit family, the road, and even the choice of trains, are so much better and, again, Dublin has the choice of flight times.
4 years ago we spent a week in Donegal, the drive is awful. Likewise, both the train and road are a faff for anything south of Listowel, so I do think that these 2 need government intervention. But, SNN and ORK need to be totally, completely, independent and allowed a fair fist at the fight.
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tonymctigue
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RE: Irish 22/11: Samhain Sa Speir

Thu Nov 10, 2011 1:31 pm

Quoting AmricanShamrok (Reply 130):
I thought the M18 was finished no? Or are they planning to extend it from SNN (N19) to Limerick where it's currently dual carraigeway 100km/h?

The current M18 ends at Gort and the old N18 takes over the rest of the way to Galway so you still drive through Ardrahan, Kilcolgen and Clarinbridge. In fairness, that was never the worst stretch of that road (the worst being the old N18 from the Barefield side of Crusheen to Gort). The planned M17/M18 is due to go all the way to Tuam and intersect the M6 at Athenry where there will be a big interchange as all traffic coming from the South, North an East of Galway converges.

The M17/M18 certainly would be of benefit to SNN but more so for NOC. The only traffic bottleneck left on the road from Galway to SNN is Clarinbridge but that is only ever backed up in a bad way for a relatively short window around 6:00PM and you're never stuck there any more then 20 minutes. The drive to NOC on the other hand will be greatly improved. Driving to NOC from Galway involves going through two of the worst traffic bottlenecks in the country in the form of Claregalway and Tuam. Claregalway town is a fifteen minute delay regardless of the time of day. The situation is compounded further by an age old Galway tradition of keeping 30mph zones for a ridiculous distance either side of the town with the 30mph zone extend at least two miles either end (and it is enforced by both Gardaí and speed vans). All in all, Claregalway can be anything from a 20-25 minute inconvenience at best to a on hour nightmare at worst. Tuam is a similar. The remainder of the road in between is a frustrating series of dangerous bends with the odd stretch safe for overtaking. That takes only one old lady in a Nissan Micra and a teenage girl just recently passed her test driving behind her combined with relatively heavy traffic in the opposite direction to make the drive from Claregalway to Tuam go from 30 minutes to 45-60 minutes.

Surprisingly, once you hit the Mayo border, the road improves drastically (thanks P. Flynn and the Flynn dynasty). It is a single-carrigway but it is fine and wide, plenty of overtaking opportunities and you do not drive through any towns once you leave Ballindine (south end of Mayo) until you reach Charlestown (North end of Mayo) with NOC being located right on the N17 about five miles before Charlestown. The road is more than adequate for the volumes of traffic left on the road at that stage as most of the frequent traffic terminates in Claregalway and Tuam so you rarely get held up once you pass Ballindine.

Long story short, the M7/M18 will slightly improve access to SNN but will greatly improve access to NOC.
Airports: SNN GWY NOC DUB ORK BOS EWR JFK ORD MCI BOI SEA LHR STN CDG LYS FAO GVA HKG MEL ADL HBA
 
EI564
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RE: Irish 22/11: Samhain Sa Speir

Thu Nov 10, 2011 2:40 pm

Quoting Reply 131):
Look at how LGW has grown since BAA has been heaved

I think Heathrow and Gatwick are growing pretty similarly. If anything, Heathrow is probably doing better over the last couple of years.
 
oneworld77
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RE: Irish 22/11: Samhain Sa Speir

Thu Nov 10, 2011 2:52 pm

Quoting EI564 (Reply 133):
I think Heathrow and Gatwick are growing pretty similarly. If anything, Heathrow is probably doing better over the last couple of years.

Which proves my point, as they WERE NOT growing similarly prior to this. My comparison was with LGW itself in previous years, LHR is LHR and vital. But LHR and LGW being owned by BAA held LGW back as LHR was always pushed first. One can only hope that the same will be for ORK and SNN.
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sawtooth
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RE: Irish 22/11: Samhain Sa Speir

Thu Nov 10, 2011 2:54 pm

Well all big rail projects were scrapped as mentioned earlier, to be reviewed in 2015. No trace of the DART spur to the airport either unless CIE can self-fund the project. However a bus corridor and improvements in Ballymun area were mentioned in aiding access to DUB airport.

M17/18 will go ahead if the Public Private Partnership can be agreed, the national borrowing interest rates being the major issue there as this was due to have started last January. A bottleneck on the N5 at Ballaghaderreen is also to be bypassed next year which should reduce the journey times for those traveling East/West to NOC from Roscommon/Longford or DUB from Mayo.

No specific aviation related projects. I'd imaging capital grants for regionals are a thing of the past unless for safety/emergency upgrades, or via other Tourism funding.
 
Clydenairways
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RE: Irish 22/11: Samhain Sa Speir

Thu Nov 10, 2011 3:47 pm

Quoting Reply 134):
Which proves my point, as they WERE NOT growing similarly prior to this. My comparison was with LGW itself in previous years, LHR is LHR and vital. But LHR and LGW being owned by BAA held LGW back as LHR was always pushed first. One can only hope that the same will be for ORK and SNN.

While the LGW growth is a good example to use, one of the big problems that will remain with SNN and ORK is the high costbase.

As all the state airports were part of the Aer Rianta group, staff in all these airports are probably all on similar generous salary/T + C/Pensions - scale. These airports also have IAA employed ATC.

If ORK and SNN broke free and even if the debt was cleared, they still have a high cost base to contend with.

If these airports were to use the new mortorway network to try entice passengers away from Dublin, they would need to beat them on price as well as convienence.

The sucuss of NOC is a very good example of how regional airports can become sustainable.
- Marketing teams that are driven and hungry to look for new busisness.
- Airport run on a lean low-cost base, which means they can sustain themselves, even on Ryanair style returns.

It is not impossible to imagine a situation in the future, where even a family from West Dublin could save a couple of hunderd euro's on a family holiday by driving to SNN. At the moment it's the other way round.
 
oneworld77
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RE: Irish 22/11: Samhain Sa Speir

Thu Nov 10, 2011 3:53 pm

Quoting clydenairways (Reply 136):
As all the state airports were part of the Aer Rianta group, staff in all these airports are probably all on similar generous salary/T + C/Pensions - scale. These airports also have IAA employed ATC.

Leaving ATC aside   , T&C's are 'easy' to change when a new organisation comes in to take over. It's brutal, I have been through it, but the 'new norm' prevails.
It would be nice to have more of choice on flights in Ireland, some day!!
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BestWestern
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RE: Irish 22/11: Samhain Sa Speir

Thu Nov 10, 2011 4:19 pm

Quoting Reply 137):
T&C's are 'easy' to change when a new organisation comes in to take over. It's brutal, I have been through it, but the 'new norm' prevails.

Not 'easy' at all. In fact it is very difficult to achieve.

The staff numbers in SNN were hacked significantly over the past decade, but still the airport campus is huge.

In terms of infrastructure, SNN isn't a regional airport. I understand that the campus is the size of Dublin, and the terminal has a capacity of 10m+ passengers, which was needed at one stage for the summer peak morning projections.

SNN is a significant part of the Irish infrastructure jigsaw, and deserves subsidies. It has a far higer strategic importance to the state than NOC and KIR combined.

Quoting clydenairways (Reply 136):
It is not impossible to imagine a situation in the future, where even a family from West Dublin could save a couple of hunderd euro's on a family holiday by driving to SNN. At the moment it's the other way round.

Sorry, but it is impossible. People arent going to add a five hour round trip to their journey to save €20 per ticket when they can hop on a Bus to Dublin Airport.

SNN is a longer flight than DUB, so costs more to operate to.

Landing costs and incentives are already in place. Even with Ryanair paying less than €1 per passenger, Ryanair couldn't find a suite of routes that made money, and to give credit, they tried many many routes.

Ryanair stated that people still drove from Nenagh to Dublin when cheaper alternatives were available from Shannon.

Quoting clydenairways (Reply 136):


The sucuss of NOC is a very good example of how regional airports can become sustainable.

Just wait till infrastructure work has to take place, or NOC has to provide the fire and safety coverage needed to operate the principal emergency airport on Europes western seaboard.
Greetings from Hong Kong.... a subsidiary of China Inc.
 
sawtooth
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RE: Irish 22/11: Samhain Sa Speir

Thu Nov 10, 2011 4:35 pm

Quoting clydenairways (Reply 136):
The sucuss of NOC is a very good example of how regional airports can become sustainable.
Quoting Bestwestern (Reply 138):
Just wait till infrastructure work has to take place

The cuts in capital investment will be a problem for NOC if it is to continuing to roll out infrastructure enhancements.

NOC commissioned a quite ambitious master plan produced by Scott Wilson for the site. It involved €45m investment over several years with a 60/40 split. While the first phase of the terminal was built, several further stages of the development plan were held up by planning objections from an environmental group in 2007, including the landslide services, car hire compound, access roads, bus and parking improvements and airside apron and RESA expansion.

By the time a site EIS was produced and planning eventually passed the money had run out, and the Government withdrew it's part funding commitment to the airports with less than half of the investment drawn down.

This in turn has prevented freeing up land for the planned apron expansion which could become a critical issue, particularly the 3 stand apron which is at capacity in summer months and restricted in terms of available slots.

[Edited 2011-11-10 08:39:21]
 
BestWestern
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RE: Irish 22/11: Samhain Sa Speir

Thu Nov 10, 2011 5:03 pm

Quoting sawtooth (Reply 139):
It involved €45m investment over several years with a 60/40 split.

I was thinking of the runway enablement work which probably will be required towards the end of the decade. Airports cant be operated successfully with so few passengers flying on an airline paying so little. Lets not forget that less than 300k passengers departed NOC last year. We are fooling ourselves if we think they can run on a stand alone basis. For example, Kerry has just 500 departing seats today on four flights.


To survive, airports like NOC and KIR need subsidies.
Greetings from Hong Kong.... a subsidiary of China Inc.
 
Clydenairways
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RE: Irish 22/11: Samhain Sa Speir

Thu Nov 10, 2011 5:13 pm

Quoting Bestwestern (Reply 138):
The staff numbers in SNN were hacked significantly over the past decade, but still the airport campus is huge.

I think most of the cuts have been with Airline and handling agent staff, not staff employed by the airport or ATC.

Quoting Bestwestern (Reply 138):
In terms of infrastructure, SNN isn't a regional airport. I understand that the campus is the size of Dublin, and the terminal has a capacity of 10m+ passengers, which was needed at one stage for the summer peak morning projections.

Yes but it needs to be able to compete as an efficient regional airport for it's future. It needs to evolve. Anyway i'm just taking about costs at both former Aer Rianta airports, not just SNN.

Quoting Bestwestern (Reply 138):
SNN is a significant part of the Irish infrastructure jigsaw, and deserves subsidies. It has a far higer strategic importance to the state than NOC and KIR combined.

I never said it wasn't, i just said for it's sucussful future it will need to be competitive to compete with NOC.

Quoting Bestwestern (Reply 138):
or NOC has to provide the fire and safety coverage needed to operate the principal emergency airport on Europes western seaboard.

If it ever comes down to that there is no reason that DUB cannot fulfill that 24hr role. There is no requirement to be on the West coast.

Quoting Bestwestern (Reply 138):
Sorry, but it is impossible. People arent going to add a five hour round trip to their journey to save €20 per ticket when they can hop on a Bus to Dublin Airport.

I gave an extreme example, but the bulk would come from within 90min drive from SNN.

Quoting Bestwestern (Reply 138):
SNN is a longer flight than DUB, so costs more to operate to.

Maybe to the UK and central Europe, but in the example i was thinking of the family who currently drive to dublin airport for their 2 week holiday to Spain Portugal Canaries. They could be swayed by a couple of hundred euro saving by flying from a regional. I'm just trying to think of a way for these airports to Increase their catchment area's a bit more.

Quoting Bestwestern (Reply 138):
Ryanair stated that people still drove from Nenagh to Dublin when cheaper alternatives were available from Shannon.

That is just a mindset and while you won't be able to change everybodies habits, it's not impossible to change this mindset over time.
 
auntie
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RE: Irish 22/11: Samhain Sa Speir

Thu Nov 10, 2011 5:16 pm

Quoting Bestwestern (Reply 138):
Sorry, but it is impossible. People arent going to add a five hour round trip to their journey to save %u20AC20 per ticket when they can hop on a Bus to Dublin Airport.

Not impossible. I was chatting to a woman in Lanzarote last month who had driven with her husband from Dublin down to SNN to get their flight to Lanzarote. She said it worked out cheaper doing that.

Incidentally, my brother, his wife and 2 kids drove from Enfield, Co Meath to BFS a number of years ago for their holiday as it was a lot cheaper to go from BFS. That's a 260 mile round trip instead of 60 round trip to DUB. They said it was WELL worth it money wise. (Especially bearing in mind that they had to drive right past DUB to get to BFS!)
 
BestWestern
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RE: Irish 22/11: Samhain Sa Speir

Thu Nov 10, 2011 5:47 pm

Quoting clydenairways (Reply 141):
think most of the cuts have been with Airline and handling agent staff, not staff employed by the airport or ATC.

2007 - 180 out of 550 took redundancy

http://www.limerickleader.ie/news/lo...rport_redundancy_package_1_2179092

2010-2011

http://www.limerickleader.ie/news/lo...rport_redundancy_package_1_2179092

staff numbers have halved.
Greetings from Hong Kong.... a subsidiary of China Inc.
 
BestWestern
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RE: Irish 22/11: Samhain Sa Speir

Thu Nov 10, 2011 5:59 pm

Greetings from Hong Kong.... a subsidiary of China Inc.
 
oneworld77
Posts: 64
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RE: Irish 22/11: Samhain Sa Speir

Thu Nov 10, 2011 6:13 pm

It's either a job plan or a profitable stand alone Airport that is a viable commercial entity. Losing one's job is just awful, however, in the context of todays news re: Capital Projects, SNN and ORK should be sold (not to TBI!!!!!!) and adjust themselves accordingly.

Quoting clydenairways (Reply 141):
you won't be able to change everybodies habits

Smoking Ban, use of vernacular by Politicians, energy efficiency, public transport in Dublin....habits can and do change, all the time.

Quoting sawtooth (Reply 139):
NOC commissioned a quite ambitious master plan produced by Scott Wilson for the site. It involved €45m investment over several years with a 60/40 split.

When was this commissioned? What was their Business Continuity planning and how robust were their Insurance and Risk modeling? Answering negative to any of these, then they should find themselves in the position they are in. They're too near Dublin to expect subsidy and more importantly they seem to be achieving a hell of a lot.

Quoting Bestwestern (Reply 138):
In fact it is very difficult to achieve.

I have experience of this as a Union member, but getting a letter with a new contract with drastically reduced T&C's and Pay and having 30 days to sign and return, is a very simple, if brutal, method of increasing competitiveness. No sign - No job. This happened in the Public Sector of an EU nation, as a Union Member in 2009. Reality folks.
Again, is it an Airport or a job creation plan. SNN cannot remain a political plaything. Parish Pump politics, have we learnt nothing?

Quoting Bestwestern (Reply 138):
In terms of infrastructure, SNN isn't a regional airport.

Yes, it very much is. As is MAN, DUS, VCE etc etc.

Quoting Bestwestern (Reply 138):
SNN is a significant part of the Irish infrastructure jigsaw, and deserves subsidies.

In the rest of the World, most Water, Electricity, Gas, Energy Networks, quite a number of Airports, Airlines, Train Operating Companies, Train Networks, even Schools, Hospitals, Fire Service buildings, Ambulance Centres, Police Tactical Centres, Ports, Radio Masts, Broadband Networks, Mobile Networks, Nuclear Processing Facilities, Waste management centres etc etc etc are all Sites of Strategic Importance, National Infrastructure Units or whatever you want to call the above list, are in some cases owned and managed by the private sector or are owned by the government and managed by the private sector, social enterprises or a mix of Public and Private organisations.
Why should SNN be any different? Subsidy? Come on now.
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tonymctigue
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RE: Irish 22/11: Samhain Sa Speir

Thu Nov 10, 2011 6:33 pm

Quoting clydenairways (Reply 141):
I think most of the cuts have been with Airline and handling agent staff, not staff employed by the airport or ATC.
Quoting Bestwestern (Reply 143):
2007 - 180 out of 550 took redundancy

I was going to say that I could have sworn there was a huge redundancy program there a few years ago.

Quoting clydenairways (Reply 141):
I never said it wasn't, i just said for it's sucussful future it will need to be competitive to compete with NOC.

Totally agree!!

Quoting clydenairways (Reply 141):
If it ever comes down to that there is no reason that DUB cannot fulfill that 24hr role. There is no requirement to be on the West coast.

For now at least, SNN will have to be able to fulfill the role of 24 hour emergency airport simply because although it would be rare, DUB cannot handle VLC's at full payload at takeoff. Of course, the other justification for SNN's 24 hour operation is to serve the US Military charters.

Quoting auntie (Reply 142):
That is just a mindset and while you won't be able to change everybodies habits, it's not impossible to change this mindset over time.

That has been the backbone of my argument for the past ten years and that is why I blame the SAA and the other SNN lobby groups for not making more of a concerted effort to target new markets. As has been pointed out, we are a small country and the mere idea of every airport having its own distinct catchment is becoming more and more irrelevant. Of course Dublin has its own greater metropolitan area that is most definitely in DUB's catchment but from what I can see, the commuter belt is game on! Right now, DUB is winning but with the right cost base, the right marketing and the right selection of routes, SNN or ORK could seek to lure some of those passengers from DUB.

Incidentally, I noticed there a while back that KIR had a big advertising board outside Co-Op Superstores in Bunratty on the N18, less than a mile from the exit to Shannon. That's the kind of ballsy marketing that SNN and ORK should be seeking to do in Dublin's commuter towns.
Airports: SNN GWY NOC DUB ORK BOS EWR JFK ORD MCI BOI SEA LHR STN CDG LYS FAO GVA HKG MEL ADL HBA
 
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shamrock604
Posts: 2189
Joined: Wed Sep 19, 2007 11:27 pm

RE: Irish 22/11: Samhain Sa Speir

Thu Nov 10, 2011 9:18 pm

Quoting tonymctigue (Reply 146):
That's the kind of ballsy marketing that SNN and ORK should be seeking to do in Dublin's commuter towns.

They do!

I've seen ads for SNN along the N7 as far east as Monasterevin.
 
sawtooth
Posts: 171
Joined: Wed Jan 24, 2007 11:16 pm

RE: Irish 22/11: Samhain Sa Speir

Thu Nov 10, 2011 9:38 pm

Quoting auntie (Reply 142):
Not impossible. I was chatting to a woman in Lanzarote last month who had driven with her husband from Dublin down to SNN to get their flight to Lanzarote. She said it worked out cheaper doing that.

I hear anecdotes like this very often. Where I'll always go for convenience, most will just go on price even if it means a long drive. Especially true for family holidays. Had 2 relatives drive to BFS from West for a flight to AGP last week based on cost and a good experience with EZ previously. Another flew EDI-DUB followed by a bus to the West rather than EDI-NOC, based on FlyBE fare. On 3 previous sun trips out of NOC I've met families who've come from Meath, Tipperary and Cavan, again they cited cost at time of booking. Also read a post on an Irish travel forum last summer by a mother from Cork city delighted to be saving several hundred euro on a family trip to ACE from NOC!

By the way had a lovely relaxed trip to AGP last month on EI morning A330 flight. Much more relaxing on the wide body compared to FR on same route a few weeks previously, and it was the same price.

[Edited 2011-11-10 13:48:51]
 
kaitak
Topic Author
Posts: 9756
Joined: Wed Aug 18, 1999 5:49 am

RE: Irish 22/11: Samhain Sa Speir

Thu Nov 10, 2011 9:44 pm

Bad news for EI ... one less potential purchaser.

http://gulfnews.com/business/aviatio...pass-up-aer-lingus-shares-1.928172

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