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Lufthansa
Posts: 2639
Joined: Thu May 20, 1999 6:04 am

RE: BA May Have To Cut Flights On LOS Route

Thu Nov 10, 2011 10:45 pm

Quoting lhr380 (Reply 149):
Both airlines?

well if this comes down to hammering out some new bilateral agreement as the only way to solve it,
and the nigerians simply can't get the slots they want on the private market, they may insist in having
the airport included in it. unlikely. but not entirely out of the question
 
B747-4U3
Posts: 617
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RE: BA May Have To Cut Flights On LOS Route

Thu Nov 10, 2011 11:06 pm

 
vv701
Posts: 5895
Joined: Fri Aug 19, 2005 10:54 am

RE: BA May Have To Cut Flights On LOS Route

Fri Nov 11, 2011 1:43 am

Quoting ba319-131 (Reply 145):
“Arik Air quietly went to negotiate five slots a week into Heathrow from Abuja, paying about £600,000 to have the opportunity to lease the slots, and the airline was paying about £52,000 per month for the operations, but all of a sudden, the British authorities informed Arik Air that from the end of October, it will not be able to lease slots to the airline.

- I doubt it was the British Authorities, it will be the slop owner.



I suspect neither. In slot constrained airports within the EU a slot is only valid for either the Summer or the Winter Season. So key words in the above quote are "from the end of October" as the Winter Timetable started on 30 October.

The reason why slots are not valid year round is because for operational reasons there are fewer weekly slots in the Winter Season than in the Summer Season.

At LHR for the last three Summer Season there have been 9,524 weekly slots available. In Summer 2009 9,515 were allocated. In Summer 2010 9,513 were allocated. In Summer 2011 they were all allocated.

In Winter 2009/10 and Winter 2010/11 there were 9,280 weekly LHR slots. For the current Winter Schedules this number has increased slightly to 9,296. In the first two of these Winter Schedules all available slots were allocated. This year 9,294 were allocated, two remain free. As there are different total numbers of slots available in the two seasons, ownership of a Summer Slot clearly cannot automatically mean the ownership of the same slot in the Winter Schedules

Is it possible that Arik Air mistakenly did not recognise this and thought that its Summer Season slots were valid year round?

I also wonder whether reference to this being BA's fault may be because of confusion between the airline BA and the LHR owner and operator, BAA? Of course neither is responsible for the issue and monitoring of LHR slots. This is down to Airport Coordination Ltd (ACL) who operate within the directives laid down by the EU. This is another potential source of confusion as the bilateral air service agreement under which the LHR-LOS and LHR-ABV flights operate is between the British and Nigerian governments.

The data above have been taken from the six relevant reports issued by ACL on their web site at:

http://www.acl-uk.org/reportsStatistics.aspx?id=98&subjectId=33
 
mikey72
Posts: 1439
Joined: Tue Oct 06, 2009 1:31 pm

RE: BA May Have To Cut Flights On LOS Route

Fri Nov 11, 2011 8:33 am

Quoting VV701 (Reply 152):
I also wonder whether reference to this being BA's fault may be because of confusion between the airline BA and the LHR owner and operator, BAA?

Well I thought that but I think it has always had more to do with the very finacially astute Nigerians not liking outsiders making money out of them. Tag onto that the old ' colonial era chip on the shoulder' thing and it's a bit of a combo for them to swallow. There have been problems on and off on this route for a while now.

Didn't BA deck out one of their jumbo's in Nigerian colours and have Nigerian crew on board at one point ?

Considering the amount of money floating about in Nigeria you'd think they could get a decent carrier up and running that could afford to pay for slots. Don't think anyone cares enough over there though to 'dob up' !
Flying is like sex - I've never had all I wanted but occasionally I've had all I can stand.
 
vv701
Posts: 5895
Joined: Fri Aug 19, 2005 10:54 am

RE: BA May Have To Cut Flights On LOS Route

Fri Nov 11, 2011 10:25 am

Quoting mikey72 (Reply 153):
Didn't BA deck out one of their jumbo's in Nigerian colours and have Nigerian crew on board at one point ?

View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Dennis Lau


It was rolled out in Nigeria Airways colours on 1 December 1999. It carried mall 'BRITISH AIRWAYS' titles and the BA bSpeedmarque. You can just discern them in the above photo above the rear cabin windows.

The aircraft was crewed by BA flight and cabin personnel. It was dedicated to a six-times weekly joint British Airways / Nigeria Airways LHR-LOS-LHR rotation flying as BA295/94 - I do not know the equivalent Nigeria Airways flight number. The inaugural flight was on 2 December.

Its last flight in Nigeria vAirways livery was BA294 on 3 August 2000. From that date the service was continued with non-dedicated BA aircraft. 'XB was temporarily withdrawn from use on 4 August and repainted in the BA Union Flag livery. It re-entered service on 14 August when it operated BA215 (LHR-BOS).

I do not know how long the service continued. But a not entirely disimilar arrangement was subsequently made in 2005 with Virgin Atlantic:

View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © A J Best


Later I believe Virgin Nigeria morphed into Nigerria Eagle Airways.
 
ebbuk
Posts: 844
Joined: Thu May 11, 2006 6:47 am

RE: BA May Have To Cut Flights On LOS Route

Fri Nov 11, 2011 12:30 pm

Quoting B747-4U3 (Reply 151):
http://news.officialwire.com/main.php?action=posted_news&rid=305604

Another interesting read on the situation.

Now it is gettin hot. Too hot for the Nigerians when one of their own wades in?

Quoting mikey72 (Reply 153):
Tag onto that the old ' colonial era chip on the shoulder' thing and it's a bit of a combo for them to swallow.

Years of slavery and generations of Nigerians lost as young men and women were shipped out to work the sugar cane fields in the British West Indies, is a hardly a chip on the shoulder. Shame on you. What about decades of indiscriminate petroleum waste dumping in Nigeria without regard for the indigenous people (think Ken Saro-Wiwa) is not a chip on the shoulder, it is a real greivance. Do some reading. Start here if you choose http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ken_Saro-Wiwa

BUT BUT nothing to do with the current spat.

Quoting mikey72 (Reply 153):
Didn't BA deck out one of their jumbo's in Nigerian colours and have Nigerian crew on board at one point ?

How very noble of us Brits. Throw the dog the bone whilst we feast on the meat. I see it didn't last long!
 
mikey72
Posts: 1439
Joined: Tue Oct 06, 2009 1:31 pm

RE: BA May Have To Cut Flights On LOS Route

Fri Nov 11, 2011 1:10 pm

Quoting ebbuk (Reply 155):
Years of slavery and generations of Nigerians lost as young men and women were shipped out to work the sugar cane fields in the British West Indies, is a hardly a chip on the shoulder. Shame on you. What about decades of indiscriminate petroleum waste dumping in Nigeria without regard for the indigenous people (think Ken Saro-Wiwa) is not a chip on the shoulder, it is a real greivance. Do some reading. Start here if you choose http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ken_Sar...-Wiwa

Hey look I totally agree, I've got a problem with the EU headquarters in Brussels trying to tell us all what to do. So I totally understand but I have worked with Nigerians and it is still an issue. Otheriwse why just sanction '''British''' Airways and not VS too ? BA is just as much a private comapny as VS is.

Nigeria is listed among the 'next 11' economies. They ain't gonna get very far with this kind of knee jerk retaliatory policy.

Quoting ebbuk (Reply 155):
Quoting mikey72 (Reply 153):
Didn't BA deck out one of their jumbo's in Nigerian colours and have Nigerian crew on board at one point ?

How very noble of us Brits. Throw the dog the bone whilst we feast on the meat. I see it didn't last long!

Actually I think it was a revenue share set up and there were Nigerian crew on board aswell as BA crew.

BCAL/BA have been operating safe/reliable passage to Nigeria (and let's face it not some of the safest airports in the world) since time immemorial.
Flying is like sex - I've never had all I wanted but occasionally I've had all I can stand.
 
ebbuk
Posts: 844
Joined: Thu May 11, 2006 6:47 am

RE: BA May Have To Cut Flights On LOS Route

Fri Nov 11, 2011 1:19 pm

Quoting mikey72 (Reply 156):

Dude get a room then you can discuss all your problems to the walls.

Leave us here to discuss the merits, or lack thereof, of this protest.

I beg you.
 
mikey72
Posts: 1439
Joined: Tue Oct 06, 2009 1:31 pm

RE: BA May Have To Cut Flights On LOS Route

Fri Nov 11, 2011 2:17 pm

Quoting ebbuk (Reply 157):
Dude get a room then you can discuss all your problems to the walls.

Leave us here to discuss the merits, or lack thereof, of this protest.

I beg you.

No problem as long as you stop living in the past. Deal ?

(and i'm not a dude)
Flying is like sex - I've never had all I wanted but occasionally I've had all I can stand.
 
ebbuk
Posts: 844
Joined: Thu May 11, 2006 6:47 am

RE: BA May Have To Cut Flights On LOS Route

Fri Nov 11, 2011 3:56 pm

Quoting mikey72 (Reply 158):

Quoting ebbuk (Reply 157):
Dude get a room then you can discuss all your problems to the walls.

Leave us here to discuss the merits, or lack thereof, of this protest.

I beg you.

No problem as long as you stop living in the past. Deal ?

(and i'm not a dude)

I am right up to the present. How wrong of me to ever think that you could be a dude? I am sorry
 
mikey72
Posts: 1439
Joined: Tue Oct 06, 2009 1:31 pm

RE: BA May Have To Cut Flights On LOS Route

Fri Nov 11, 2011 4:44 pm

Quoting ebbuk (Reply 159):
How wrong of me to ever think that you could be a dude? I am sorry

Don't worry about it. I might be alot of things but 'dude' ain't one of them.

Getting back on topic...I've been on enough BA flights to Nigeria to know that cabin crew treatment of passengers on said flights is no different to other flights. It may seem slightly hectic due to the vast amounts of duty free that are purchased and the inordinate amount of hand baggage that is 'forgiven' ! Aircraft are certainly not pre-selected by destination. For one thing it would be a logistical impossibility and nightmare.

Let's just hope common sense prevails before thousands of people are needlessly inconvenienced.
Flying is like sex - I've never had all I wanted but occasionally I've had all I can stand.
 
vv701
Posts: 5895
Joined: Fri Aug 19, 2005 10:54 am

RE: BA May Have To Cut Flights On LOS Route

Fri Nov 11, 2011 5:04 pm

Quoting ebbuk (Reply 155):
How very noble of us Brits. Throw the dog the bone whilst we feast on the meat. I see it didn't last long!

The painting of a BA aircraft in Nigeria Airways livery did not last long. But then nothing has lasted too long.

It soon became clear that operatting as single dedicated aircraft on just one service was no more practical than having an airline operating a daily year round service with just one aircraft. But although I am very far from certain I believe that BA continued to operate the service using aircraft painted in its own livery up until Virgin Nigeria operationally replaced Nigeria Airways on 24 June 2005.

Obviously BA would not have operated its own aircraft on behalf of an airline 49 per cent owned by Virgin Atlantic (with the remaining 51 per cent being owned by Nigerian investors).

Virgin Atlantic were soon in dispute with the Nigerian government after it unilaterally required Virgin Nigeria to move its domestic operations to T2 at LOS . This culminated in Virgin Atlantic announcing on 19 August 2008 that it was looking to sell its interest in Virgin Nigeria. As a result the LOS-LGW service operated by Virgin Nigeria was suspended the following January.

On 19 September 2009 Virgin Nigeria, still 49 per cent owned by Virgin Atlantic, announced it was rebranding itself as Nigerian Eagle Airlines.

A further rebranding to Air Nigeria occured only a few months later on 2 January 2010.

So this airline has operated in no less than five different liveries carrying five different sets of titles in just over 11 years. Consisterncy is not an attribute of this particular operator. And their paint bill must be huge.  
 
B747-4U3
Posts: 617
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RE: BA May Have To Cut Flights On LOS Route

Sat Nov 12, 2011 2:39 pm

Would you believe it, those colonialist Brits have done it again, this time picking on the Chinese!

Now Air China To Start LGW Service (by jet72uk Nov 11 2011 in Civil Aviation)

Air China have had to start flights to LGW due to a lack of slots at LHR. How could the British government (and let's not forget BA) act in such an oppressive way? How dare they undermine the competitiveness of competitors by forcing them to use an alternative airport.

I wonder why Air China and the Chinese government, haven't kicked up a stink and started to remove BA's landing rights in China?
 
FCAFLYBOY
Posts: 687
Joined: Sun Nov 05, 2006 5:03 am

RE: BA May Have To Cut Flights On LOS Route

Sat Nov 12, 2011 3:01 pm

Quoting ebbuk (Reply 110):
Let's start a conversation in the general chat forum about that. I will give you some reading material beforehand then we can discuss.

But you did not quote speculation, you stated 'fact' so prove it.

You are doing a great job for the most part of avoiding providing a source or
point of reference to anything. Are we all to assume that you are so superior in knowledge that
you don't need to?

Time and time again you are skirting the issues and avoiding backing
up your claims with eloquent diction, that doesn't wash with me, sorry.

As for BA having more 'safety' related issues, are you serious?
Do you want to compare the scale of both airlines' fleet and scale of operation?
Not forgetting of course that many a close call in Nigerian aviation rarely gets

Quoting B747-4U3 (Reply 162):
Would you believe it, those colonialist Brits have done it again, this time picking on the Chinese!

That is so funny. Nice to know not everyone in this world has lost their sense of humour haha.
 
mikey72
Posts: 1439
Joined: Tue Oct 06, 2009 1:31 pm

RE: BA May Have To Cut Flights On LOS Route

Sat Nov 12, 2011 3:10 pm

Quoting B747-4U3 (Reply 162):
Would you believe it, those colonialist Brits have done it again, this time picking on the Chinese!

We should sell the Isle Of WIght to China (god knows we need the money). They can build a great big airport on it. Build another tunnel to France from it and rake in the cash !!

(Kidding btw)
Flying is like sex - I've never had all I wanted but occasionally I've had all I can stand.
 
FCAFLYBOY
Posts: 687
Joined: Sun Nov 05, 2006 5:03 am

RE: BA May Have To Cut Flights On LOS Route

Sat Nov 12, 2011 7:27 pm

Quoting mikey72 (Reply 164):
We should sell the Isle Of WIght to China (god knows we need the money). They can build a great big airport on it. Build another tunnel to France from it and rake in the cash !!

Actually, joking aside, not a bad idea!
Then they can sell some additional slots to Arik haha.
 
soups
Posts: 3259
Joined: Thu Jun 03, 2004 6:41 pm

RE: BA May Have To Cut Flights On LOS Route

Sat Nov 12, 2011 10:47 pm

storyline........is BA going 3 weekly or not?

lol
Next destinations, Suarabaya, beirut, paris, Accra
 
ebbuk
Posts: 844
Joined: Thu May 11, 2006 6:47 am

RE: BA May Have To Cut Flights On LOS Route

Mon Nov 14, 2011 11:57 am

Quoting soups (Reply 166):
storyline........is BA going 3 weekly or not?

According to the article below, they will do as of tomorrow, if the talks breakdown.

http://allafrica.com/stories/201111140463.html

Never one to get in the way of a good story, it clearly states why the Nigerians have taken this course of action.

fair use:

"Aviation Minister, Princess Stella Oduah, yesterday, insisted that the British Government was wrong in disrespecting the Bilateral Air Service Agreement signed by both countries.

According to Princess Oduah, the main issue at stake was not how Arik Air was ill treated and elbowed out of the London Heathrow airport by the UK's Airport Coordination Limited, ACL, but by the way the UK government violated the spirit and letter of BASA which was predicated on the principles of equity, fairness and reciprocity.

She said: "Those who argue that the fate of Arik Air with regard to the loss of its slots into London Heathrow was a consequence of purely independent, commercial decisions by ACL which is in charge of slot allocation into Heathrow are missing the point, if not being entirely mischievous."

Interesting article and great pic of an Arik A380 as well.
 
RIXrat
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RE: BA May Have To Cut Flights On LOS Route

Tue Nov 15, 2011 6:19 am

From the Photo in the article above that ebbuk mentioned, I didn't know that Arik Air flew A380s. By all means, bring them on.
 
lhr380
Topic Author
Posts: 2453
Joined: Thu Jan 15, 2009 5:39 pm

RE: BA May Have To Cut Flights On LOS Route

Tue Nov 15, 2011 10:33 am

Quoting RIXrat (Reply 168):

They dont. May have them on order, but they dont have any in service. Actually, do they have them on order?
(The views on this site are my own and no one elses)
 
anstar
Posts: 3348
Joined: Sun Nov 23, 2003 3:49 am

RE: BA May Have To Cut Flights On LOS Route

Tue Nov 15, 2011 11:03 am

Quoting ebbuk (Reply 142):
BD is being bought by BA is it not? Subject to scrutiny by authorities. There is a mention of the six slots being used by BA almost immediately. I don't what new routes BA has started recently and whether or not it is factually inaccurate. Additionally does this "littering of factual inaccuracies", negate from the issue that the Nigerians have brought to a head?

So you are implying that before BA even proposed to buy their competitor BD that they called them up and told them to increase their fees to Arik?

I don;t think so. Your bone should be with Lufthansa as they own 100% of British Midland. BD are a sinking ship so of course they are going to increase their fees for slots. The 6 slots BA have got I know at leats one is being used on a new AMS frequency and also a GLA.

Quoting ebbuk (Reply 142):

Calm down dear! No one is blaming precious BA as far as I can tell.

Using words like precious BA doesnt really help in a balanced debate as it prooves that you are anti BA.

In the end the biggest losers to the current Nigerain policy of restricting flights will be Nigerians themselves as they will face higher fares in the meantime with less competition.
 
ebbuk
Posts: 844
Joined: Thu May 11, 2006 6:47 am

RE: BA May Have To Cut Flights On LOS Route

Tue Nov 15, 2011 12:59 pm

Quoting lhr380 (Reply 169):
Quoting RIXrat (Reply 168):

They dont. May have them on order, but they dont have any in service. Actually, do they have them on order?

No they don't.

Quoting anstar (Reply 170):

So you are implying that before BA even proposed to buy their competitor BD that they called them up and told them to increase their fees to Arik?


Well I couldn't possibly say. But the timing and coincidence is shocking. BD was sinking when it leased the slots, then when it was about to be announced that a takeover had been agreed, it hiked up the fees 50%. Hmmm. BA is not adverse to some corruption as we have witnessed in the past.

Quoting anstar (Reply 170):
Calm down dear! No one is blaming precious BA as far as I can tell.

Using words like precious BA doesnt really help in a balanced debate as it prooves that you are anti BA.

In the end the biggest losers to the current Nigerain policy of restricting flights will be Nigerians themselves as they will face higher fares in the meantime with less competition.

Proves nothing of the sort. I was responding to the sentiment in this thread that BA was a victim in all of this. I say quite the opposite. On this route, It has been an opportunistic jackal.

With regards to your last sentence, I ask you, could it really get any worse for them a few hundred more on what are already super expensive fares anyway? The stance by the Nigerian government is about opening up competition on a level playing ground. I hope it is.

Anyway just checked on BA website and it is still showing daily flights with early morn arrivals into LHR, so maybe nothing's happened?
 
anstar
Posts: 3348
Joined: Sun Nov 23, 2003 3:49 am

RE: BA May Have To Cut Flights On LOS Route

Tue Nov 15, 2011 1:26 pm

Another article here

http://leadership.ng/nga/articles/82...ciprocity_aviation_agreements.html

Quote:

“Why is BA being penalised for airport issues concerning slots. Slot acquisition and its management have no bearing with Bilateral Air Services Agreement and flight frequencies. Besides, two flag carriers or national carriers of Britain so to say utilise the Nigeria/Britain BASA. Why is one atoning for the diplomatic sin if at all any?


“Arik Air and our flag carriers need to understand the aero politics and workings of slots globally. Schedule reliability is key. I guess we’ve not been told the whole story. Harassing BA like we are doing is against business ethics and in the long run Nigerian travelling public will suffer higher tariffs arising from reduction in capacity which our airlines put together cannot provide during holiday season just approaching”, said Olowo
Quote:

Conclusion
It is obvious that Nigerian airlines currently lack the capacity to compete with the strong foreign airlines that operate flights to Nigeria. It is also true that Nigerians especially the travelling public would suffer if the government fails to resolve the BASA issues before the Christmas holidays set in, however, it is better to get things right now so that such issues might not arise tomorrow. This is a test for those in authority and for the nation’s aviation industry. The nation’s policy formulators should not mortgage the future because Nigerian airlines currently lack the capacity to compete in the global aviation market.

Now as for your comment on whats a few hundred more pounds in an airfare anyway - well I am sure a few hundred means a lot to many people.

And this train of thought about BA making a decision for British Midland to increase the price of its slots to Arik is unfounded and is like trying to make a story out of something that it isnt. As I said - direct your resentment of this to Lufthansa.
 
ebbuk
Posts: 844
Joined: Thu May 11, 2006 6:47 am

RE: BA May Have To Cut Flights On LOS Route

Tue Nov 15, 2011 1:59 pm

Quoting anstar (Reply 172):
Now as for your comment on whats a few hundred more pounds in an airfare anyway - well I am sure a few hundred means a lot to many people.

How delicious of you to quote just one part of the article and omit the kernel of case from that source. I have it here to save you reading the article again

Quote:
"“Regret to note that the letter and spirit of BASA has not been respected as far as the treatment of Arik Air is concerned. But it is Arik Air today and it could as well be another Nigerian flag carrier tomorrow. Our position is that whether it is Arik Air or any other Nigerian airline, the reciprocal cornerstone of BASA must be maintained and the Nigerian government is not about to shirk its responsibility to protect its corporate citizens whose rights under BASA are surreptitiously being violated under different guises.


As stated earlier, discussions between the relevant Nigerian and British authorities are on-going with a view to resolving the present imbroglio in a mutually satisfactory manner. But the point must be made again and again that this is not about Arik Air. It is about the fair and equitable treatment of Nigerian Flag Carriers in line with BASA agreements.”

source: http://leadership.ng/nga/articles/82...ciprocity_aviation_agreements.html

Sometimes in a power struggle, things get worse before they get better. Unfortunate but true. If it can be avoided then good for all concerned especially for the many Nigerians travelling during the imminent holiday season. No one wants to pay higher fares than necessary.

Quoting anstar (Reply 172):
And this train of thought about BA making a decision for British Midland to increase the price of its slots to Arik is unfounded and is like trying to make a story out of something that it isnt. As I said - direct your resentment of this to Lufthansa.

With the greatest respect to you, I carry no resentment. I have always said of this matter, something stinks and it needs sorting. The best way would be both parties talking and coming to a win win solution. It will take mighty big balls to see this struggle through, for I doubt the vested interests in this matter will concede gracefully.

We have both shown who we support. Let's see what happens
 
mikey72
Posts: 1439
Joined: Tue Oct 06, 2009 1:31 pm

RE: BA May Have To Cut Flights On LOS Route

Tue Nov 15, 2011 2:06 pm

Quoting ebbuk (Reply 171):
Hmmm. BA is not adverse to some corruption as we have witnessed in the past.


Oh god...yawn !

Quoting ebbuk (Reply 171):
Proves nothing of the sort. I was responding to the sentiment in this thread that BA was a victim in all of this. I say quite the opposite. On this route, It has been an opportunistic jackal.

Double yawn. Ever heard of market economics ? The price is what the market is prepared to pay.

Please don't forget that this route has always had a high percentage of premium passengers connected with the oil industry and transitting to and from the U.S.. In other words $$$$. I also frequently witnessed passengers spending more than their airfare on duty-free goods.

BA don't fly routes for the hell of it you know. Couple with that lousy competition and what do you expect ?
Flying is like sex - I've never had all I wanted but occasionally I've had all I can stand.
 
ebbuk
Posts: 844
Joined: Thu May 11, 2006 6:47 am

RE: BA May Have To Cut Flights On LOS Route

Tue Nov 15, 2011 2:12 pm

Quoting mikey72 (Reply 174):
BA don't fly routes for the hell of it you know. Couple with that lousy competition and what do you expect ?

A right royal spat like the one that is carrying on now. I do despair for you sometimes mikey.
 
AIR MALTA
Posts: 1791
Joined: Mon Sep 17, 2001 6:45 am

RE: BA May Have To Cut Flights On LOS Route

Tue Nov 15, 2011 2:16 pm

Quoting mikey72 (Reply 174):
Double yawn. Ever heard of market economics ? The price is what the market is prepared to pay.

Ebbuk thinks that Nigeria is above all nations in the world and its airlines suffering racism and attacks.Nigeria and Nigerian Airlines should learn from the likes of Air China, Korean Air, Royal Air Maroc, Tap Portugal, Sri Lankan and others that did not find suitable slots at LHR and started operations (or about to start) at London Gatwick the other London Airport. They did not go to their governments crying about the monster BA...
Next flights : BRU-ZRH-CAI (LX)/ BRU-FCO-TLV (AZ)
 
mikey72
Posts: 1439
Joined: Tue Oct 06, 2009 1:31 pm

RE: BA May Have To Cut Flights On LOS Route

Tue Nov 15, 2011 2:23 pm

Quoting ebbuk (Reply 175):
A right royal spat like the one that is carrying on now. I do despair for you sometimes mikey.

Thanks for your concern, duly noted.

I think it's more of a case of toys being thrown out of the pram to be honest. What any of it has to do with BA is beyond me.

I just feel sorry for the BA crew that may have to stay longer in that flea pit that passes for a hotel !
Flying is like sex - I've never had all I wanted but occasionally I've had all I can stand.
 
anstar
Posts: 3348
Joined: Sun Nov 23, 2003 3:49 am

RE: BA May Have To Cut Flights On LOS Route

Tue Nov 15, 2011 2:33 pm

Quoting ebbuk (Reply 173):
How delicious of you to quote just one part of the article and omit the kernel of case from that source. I have it here to save you reading the article again

Actually I posted 2 parts that I thought were relevant. The paragraph that says "Harrassing BA" as the govt of Nigeria are targeting BA and not VS.

And instead of reposting the rhetoric from the Nigerain govt - I simply posted the conlcusion of the article which was in response to the article.

Quoting ebbuk (Reply 173):

We have both shown who we support. Let's see what happens

Well I don't support BA, nor do I support the Nigerian govt's stance. But I do support business. If Arik want to fly to the premier London airport then they need to pay a premium like other airlines have done to get access to Londons premier airport. Delta, UA, CO etc.
 
jet72uk
Posts: 111
Joined: Sat Oct 01, 2011 7:14 pm

RE: BA May Have To Cut Flights On LOS Route

Tue Nov 15, 2011 3:04 pm

B747-U43 Air China have had to start flights to LGW due to a lack of slots at LHR. How could the British government (and let's not forget BA) act in such an oppressive way? How dare they undermine the competitiveness of competitors by forcing them to use an alternative airport.

I wonder why Air China and the Chinese government, haven't kicked up a stink and started to remove BA's landing rights in China?

OMG - calm down B747-U43! Its only LGW for godness sake - hardly EMA ror NQY is it!
 
skipness1E
Posts: 4909
Joined: Sun Aug 19, 2007 9:18 am

RE: BA May Have To Cut Flights On LOS Route

Tue Nov 15, 2011 4:57 pm

Quoting ebbuk (Reply 171):

Well I couldn't possibly say. But the timing and coincidence is shocking. BD was sinking when it leased the slots, then when it was about to be announced that a takeover had been agreed, it hiked up the fees 50%. Hmmm. BA is not adverse to some corruption as we have witnessed in the past.

Are you saying that hiking the price up to an unreasonable level is corrupt? Is this corruption by Nigerian standards of endemic political and instituional corruption or Adam Smith supply and demand standards of market value of an asset? Half the reason BD failed is becasue they failed to maximise the value fo what they had. I cannot believe this thread is still tanking along.
 
B747-4U3
Posts: 617
Joined: Fri Jan 04, 2002 8:08 am

RE: BA May Have To Cut Flights On LOS Route

Tue Nov 15, 2011 7:57 pm

Quoting ebbuk (Reply 171):
BD was sinking when it leased the slots, then when it was about to be announced that a takeover had been agreed, it hiked up the fees 50%. Hmmm.

The slots issue surfaced in the media after the takeover was announced, it likely arose long before the takeover was announced. Basing timescales on media reports is unreliable, so we cannot presume shady-dealings on that alone.

Quoting ebbuk (Reply 171):
The stance by the Nigerian government is about opening up competition on a level playing ground.

Unless Arik Air is willing to increase flights to 21 weekly, or other Nigerian carriers are willing to start flying to the UK, then you will never achieve the level playing field you are talking about. You seem to be suggesting that because Nigerian carriers are only flying 7 weekly flights to the UK, British carriers should only fly 7 weekly to Nigeria which is then counter productive because it is reducing competition.

It would be preferable that the market be opened further and we end up with a situation where Arik Air offered 7 weekly and British carriers offered 28 weekly (or vice versa) because the overall increase in flights (despite the lopsidedness of the arrangement) would significantly boost competition and lower fares for the consumer.

Look at the Dubai - UK market. BA have 3 daily, Virgin 1 and Emirates up to 15 daily! Do we hear BA or British people whining en masse? No. That is because most of us have realised that the extra competition - despite being foreign competition - has been of massive benefit to the consumer in terms of more choice of services, increased connectivity and lower fares.

If the Nigerian government sided with the consumer rather than squabbling over foreign carrier's access to Nigeria, I would expect that we would start seeing flights from Kano and Port Harcourt to London in addition to more flights from Lagos and Abuja. How is that a bad thing, even if those extra flights are flown by BA or VS? It improves links to Nigerian regions - which will boost business there - and gives the consumer more choice, more direct flights and lower fares thanks to reduced competition.

As I have said before, the action of the Nigerian government will hurt Nigerian consumers more than anyone else.

Quoting jet72uk (Reply 179):
OMG - calm down B747-U43! Its only LGW for godness sake - hardly EMA ror NQY is it!

Sarcasm?

[Edited 2011-11-15 11:58:07]
 
lewis
Posts: 3586
Joined: Thu Jul 08, 1999 5:41 am

RE: BA May Have To Cut Flights On LOS Route

Tue Nov 15, 2011 8:09 pm

Quoting ebbuk (Reply 173):
It is about the fair and equitable treatment of Nigerian Flag Carriers in line with BASA agreements.

You still haven't managed (neither have they) to show us where there is "unfair treatment" in this whole story. All I see is that Arik cannot afford to lease slots at LHR for the time they want to fly. Unless BASA agreements state that Arik should fly at LHR and also give a cap on slot prices, then I don't see how it was not followed to the letter.
 
ebbuk
Posts: 844
Joined: Thu May 11, 2006 6:47 am

RE: BA May Have To Cut Flights On LOS Route

Tue Nov 15, 2011 10:31 pm

Quoting AIR MALTA (Reply 176):

I can't even deal. Leave well alone. The high road is my road!

Quoting anstar (Reply 178):
Well I don't support BA, nor do I support the Nigerian govt's stance. But I do support business. If Arik want to fly to the premier London airport then they need to pay a premium like other airlines have done to get access to Londons premier airport. Delta, UA, CO etc.

Well that's cleared that up. Business for you by any means necessary. Very clear.

Quoting skipness1E (Reply 180):
I cannot believe this thread is still tanking along.

I know it is so frustrating. Why can't real life be like an episode of Glee? Everything sorted out in an hour with some singing as well?
For you it is a thread. Sad to say but in the real world, some people are dealing with tough situations.

Quoting B747-4U3 (Reply 181):
Unless Arik Air is willing to increase flights to 21 weekly, or other Nigerian carriers are willing to start flying to the UK, then you will never achieve the level playing field you are talking about. You seem to be suggesting that because Nigerian carriers are only flying 7 weekly flights to the UK, British carriers should only fly 7 weekly to Nigeria which is then counter productive because it is reducing competition.

You just don't get the kernel of the issue. See below

Quoting B747-4U3 (Reply 181):
Look at the Dubai - UK market. BA have 3 daily, Virgin 1 and Emirates up to 15 daily! Do we hear BA or British people whining en masse? No. That is because most of us have realised that the extra competition - despite being foreign competition - has been of massive benefit to the consumer in terms of more choice of services, increased connectivity and lower fares.

I don't know what the Agreement is with UK and Dubai and how they choose to deal with the issue is up to them. Nigeria has an issue and wants it sorted. I stand shoulder to shoulder with them in their desire to get reciprocity in the BASA.

Quoting lewis (Reply 182):
Quoting ebbuk (Reply 173):
It is about the fair and equitable treatment of Nigerian Flag Carriers in line with BASA agreements.

You still haven't managed (neither have they) to show us where there is "unfair treatment" in this whole story.

If the direct quote below doesn't do it for you Lewis, then there isn't much more to add.

Quoting ebbuk (Reply 173):
Quote:
"%u201CRegret to note that the letter and spirit of BASA has not been respected as far as the treatment of Arik Air is concerned. But it is Arik Air today and it could as well be another Nigerian flag carrier tomorrow. Our position is that whether it is Arik Air or any other Nigerian airline, the reciprocal cornerstone of BASA must be maintained and the Nigerian government is not about to shirk its responsibility to protect its corporate citizens whose rights under BASA are surreptitiously being violated under different guises.


As stated earlier, discussions between the relevant Nigerian and British authorities are on-going with a view to resolving the present imbroglio in a mutually satisfactory manner. But the point must be made again and again that this is not about Arik Air. It is about the fair and equitable treatment of Nigerian Flag Carriers in line with BASA agreements.%u201D

source: http://leadership.ng/nga/articles/82...ciprocity_aviation_agreements.html
 
lewis
Posts: 3586
Joined: Thu Jul 08, 1999 5:41 am

RE: BA May Have To Cut Flights On LOS Route

Tue Nov 15, 2011 10:54 pm

Quoting ebbuk (Reply 183):
If the direct quote below doesn't do it for you Lewis, then there isn't much more to add.

I read the quote you posted earlier and I have heard your position. The quote you posted says that
"the letter and spirit of BASA has not been respected" but my question is "how come?". Neither you, nor the quote have managed to clearly come out and say which part of the BASA is being violated when Aric cannot afford the slots they want. If there isn't much more to add to it than conspiracy theories then there really isn't much going on.

Quoting ebbuk (Reply 183):
Well that's cleared that up. Business for you by any means necessary.

Simply a matter of how business works. Supply and demand set prices. If I cannot afford something, I can still buy the alternative that may suit my means. If all other airlines have to pay a premium price for access to LHR where demand is high and supply is low, I don't see why Arik is the only one expecting a discount.
 
ebbuk
Posts: 844
Joined: Thu May 11, 2006 6:47 am

RE: BA May Have To Cut Flights On LOS Route

Tue Nov 15, 2011 11:07 pm

Quoting lewis (Reply 184):

If only it was that simple. If only my Greek friend.
 
YVRLTN
Posts: 2348
Joined: Wed Oct 04, 2006 1:49 pm

RE: BA May Have To Cut Flights On LOS Route

Wed Nov 16, 2011 4:25 am

All I can say is wow...

Its pretty simple. Arik cant afford to pay for LHR slots and they clearly dont have enough customers - if they did why fly a 737 on such a prime route - so they whine to the Nigerian government, who put the brakes on BA, so Arik can then pick up their pax to fill their planes and spite BA in the process. Its all smoke and mirrors to hide that fact that Arik are stuck up shite creek and probably bankcrupt without their cronies in the government.

Quoting ebbuk (Reply 117):
The question is have the Nigerians done anything illegal either?

Yes. They are breaking their side of the bi-lateral by playing this game with BA.

Quoting ebbuk (Reply 119):
BA operates flights in and out of Nigeria as does VS up to the 21 allowed. They knew that there wasn't a Nigerian carrier operating to 21 flight from Nigeria to UK. They have exploited this fact.

What Nigerian carrier do you propose operates 21 flights a week to the UK? How many Nigerian carriers have been and gone while BA have remained faithful to their clients? There is NOTHING to stop Arik or any other Nigerian airline operating 3x A380's per day to LHR if they want to.

Quoting ebbuk (Reply 119):
An airline that enjoys some of it's highest margins all year round on this route, is not a victim.

You have to look at why this is - why cant Arik share the O&D pie 50/33/17% with BA & VS in that order? So if you see a random rich guy walking down the street, its OK to smack him in the head and take his wallet just because he is rich and earned whatever he has in there? That guy is a random victim just as much as BA is here.

Quoting ebbuk (Reply 127):
Then it appears that it is different in Nigeria. And the government there is pushing for a bigger slice of the LHR cake on behalf of Arik

Why should the goverment of Nigeria be entitled to do this any more than the governments of Germany, France, Qatar, India or anywhere else? You can argue the airlines of these nations suffer loss of business to BA too.

Quoting ebbuk (Reply 127):
So it would be within the governments remit to allow certain flights and at certain times, and given suitable notice, change them where necessary. I mean being first to fly doesn't give you legal rights or ownership of a slot or time does it? Or does it?

Once again, it is nothing to do with the government what happens to slots at LHR. Arik Air have to acquire them like any other carrier - why should they be treated differently? For example, BA has flown to Dar Es Salaam Tanzania for years. Should the British government give Precision Air some free slots to offer some competition?

Quoting ebbuk (Reply 133):
Yet Arik Air never enjoyed such subsidy by the Nigerian government and has to service it's full historical costs from income

If you believe that, then I would like you to know that West Ham will win the Champions League, Premiership & FA Cup next season... yeah, thats my dream   

Quoting ebbuk (Reply 133):
But the situation is very different. BA wants everything incluing BD and has asked it to increase it's fees to Arik, a blatant and cynical move by "vicim" BA.

So you are saying that before the sale is even done, which has been talked about for weeks before anyone knew Arik was going to throw their toys out of the pram, that BA are colluding to harm Arik? Check out that thread, its quite clear those slots are nothing to do with LOS or Arik and that the BD operation is quite useless to anyone other than BA. As a business, long term of course BA would seek to use all their slots for themselves for their own growth from their hub, so they would not want to lease them out if they can help it, but I can assure you one of the goals in so doing was not the specific spiting or Arik. They couldnt GARA about some little airline from Nigeria who probably wont exist in 2-3 years anway in the grand scheme of a deal like buying BD, its more about EK, Star & SkyTeam they are concerned about.

Maybe the Nigerian government want to ban some LH flights too, after all they still own BD and are the ones who call the shots and authorize decisions at BD...

Quoting ebbuk (Reply 133):
Then you wonder why so many carriers from Nigeria have not made it?

Not really. For every $10 made, $9 disappears. How are First Nation A/W doing with their 3x A320's? One daily flight which delayed 24 hours in its start so far. Wonder how long operating like that can last?

Quoting ebbuk (Reply 134):
I suggested that BA, rather than run to the UK government and cry like a baby, it could make up for the lost slots and apply for flights from LGW for example. They could use any other UK airport as well.

As could Arik. So you buy legally 7 tickets to watch England play at Wembley. 4 of your tickets are then forcibly confiscated by security because they feel the guy next to you had to pay more for his tickets than you did, so they thinks that is unfair. Would you, or would you not go to the FA (or even the police) and ask for some resolution?

Quoting ebbuk (Reply 134):
I am going round and round in circles

You said it  
Quoting ebbuk (Reply 134):
It doesn't hurt for a small player to ask to eat from the master's table.

Sure, but if you want to play with the big boys, you need the resources. Like going to the casino, know your limit, play within it. Everyone is welcome, but you dont start off with the high rollers unless you have the means to compete. You may get lucky and make your way up there, but in the meantime stay within your means. So whatever you feel about BA personally, they are what they are and there is nothing to stop Arik setting up a business to compete with them, but right now impounded planes, 737 for LHR routes, all sorts of money issues, website not updated, lots of talk with no action, bizarre fleet choices, they hardly appear to have the credentials to keep company with the majority of carriers who use LHR and pay for their right to do so...
Follow me on twitter for YVR movements @vernonYVR
 
ebbuk
Posts: 844
Joined: Thu May 11, 2006 6:47 am

RE: BA May Have To Cut Flights On LOS Route

Wed Nov 16, 2011 4:51 am

Quoting YVRLTN (Reply 186):

Et toi aussi. I think they say in French. I do love when people use all sorts of analogies to prove a point, a point that is not the issue. The issue is not about Arik. It is about Nigeria getting reciprocity in a deal that has been weighed in the UK's favour for too long.

What is wrong with wanting to re-calibrate the scales? You may not like the tactics but the fight is on. Just to re-iterate, it's not about Arik.
 
YVRLTN
Posts: 2348
Joined: Wed Oct 04, 2006 1:49 pm

RE: BA May Have To Cut Flights On LOS Route

Wed Nov 16, 2011 5:18 am

Quoting ebbuk (Reply 187):
What is wrong with wanting to re-calibrate the scales? You may not like the tactics but the fight is on. Just to re-iterate, it's not about Arik.

Youre up early  

OK, so its about Nigeria or Africa. What right do they have to get preferential treatment at LHR? And at the expense of BA (and not VS) nor the UK or European colonials?

I think you will find it is all about Arik - they dont want to admit they can not sustain operations to LHR...
Follow me on twitter for YVR movements @vernonYVR
 
B747-4U3
Posts: 617
Joined: Fri Jan 04, 2002 8:08 am

RE: BA May Have To Cut Flights On LOS Route

Wed Nov 16, 2011 7:15 am

Quoting ebbuk (Reply 183):
You just don't get the kernel of the issue. See below

I am amazed that you have had the audacity to be as condescending to suggest that I "don't get the kernel of the issue" and then provide a link for me to supposedly learn from which does not explain what the kernel of the issue is. Neither you nor the link have been able to explain the issue. "Spirit of the agreement" and "fair and equitable treatment" are not the kernel of the issue, they are just political babble.

So for the sake of my sanity, could you please explain to me what you think the issue is without resorting to "scales" and "fair and equitable treatment" and suchlike?

Quoting ebbuk (Reply 187):
It is about Nigeria getting reciprocity in a deal that has been weighed in the UK's favour for too long.

What reciprocity do you want? How is it weighted in favour of the UK?
 
ebbuk
Posts: 844
Joined: Thu May 11, 2006 6:47 am

RE: BA May Have To Cut Flights On LOS Route

Wed Nov 16, 2011 7:36 am

Quoting YVRLTN (Reply 188):
Youre up early

OK, so its about Nigeria or Africa. What right do they have to get preferential treatment at LHR? And at the expense of BA (and not VS) nor the UK or European colonials?

I think you will find it is all about Arik - they dont want to admit they can not sustain operations to LHR...

Hustling for the pay-check means early starts in London town  

Nothing makes the British government sit up and listen than a threat to curtail BA. If the Nigerians did this to VS, the most they might have had would be Naomi Campbell post something on twitter. Amazing but not effective. I am not so sure it is just about Arik. To be frank, as I have said in the past, I am not even sure if this is not a posturing for some dodgy bribes to be paid out by the Brits to maintain the status quo. I wouldn't support the stance if it was that.

Quoting B747-4U3 (Reply 189):
"Spirit of the agreement" and "fair and equitable treatment" are not the kernel of the issue, they are just political babble.

For one side they "are" the issue. For you it is babble. If that is how the two governments see it then this will be a long issue.

Quoting B747-4U3 (Reply 189):

What reciprocity do you want? How is it weighted in favour of the UK?

It's in the article. It's at the airports. It's on the balance sheets. It's in the margins on the route. Maybe you are too blind to see it? I will not be as audacious as to state it this time.
 
tonystan
Posts: 1726
Joined: Sat Jan 07, 2006 7:39 am

RE: BA May Have To Cut Flights On LOS Route

Wed Nov 16, 2011 4:44 pm

So is the Nigerian just proving once again that its full of "fat" air or are the flights going to be curtailed?
My views are my own and do not reflect any other person or organisation.
 
B747-4U3
Posts: 617
Joined: Fri Jan 04, 2002 8:08 am

RE: BA May Have To Cut Flights On LOS Route

Wed Nov 16, 2011 5:11 pm

Quoting ebbuk (Reply 190):
Quoting B747-4U3 (Reply 189):
"Spirit of the agreement" and "fair and equitable treatment" are not the kernel of the issue, they are just political babble.

For one side they "are" the issue. For you it is babble. If that is how the two governments see it then this will be a long issue.

Quoting B747-4U3 (Reply 189):

What reciprocity do you want? How is it weighted in favour of the UK?

It's in the article. It's at the airports. It's on the balance sheets. It's in the margins on the route. Maybe you are too blind to see it? I will not be as audacious as to state it this time.

Yet again you have skirted the issue and have directed me to an article which does not discuss the issues - it talks about fairness and reciprocity but fails to detail what and why. What you and the article have provided is woolly and fails to answer my question.


http://www.boston.com/news/world/eur..._british_airways_to_keep_schedule/

The article says that BA can continue 7 weekly to Lagos whilst talks proceed.
 
ebbuk
Posts: 844
Joined: Thu May 11, 2006 6:47 am

RE: BA May Have To Cut Flights On LOS Route

Wed Nov 16, 2011 5:33 pm

Quoting tonystan (Reply 191):
Quoting B747-4U3 (Reply 192):

Woolly or whatever no case to answer? It would appear not. Nigeria have scored a major win against the Brits

http://www.thisdaylive.com/articles/...k-gets-7-slots-to-heathrow/102920/
fair use:
"Arik Air has emerged a major beneficiary from the settlement of the face-off between Nigeria and the United Kingdom over the implementation of the Bilateral Air Services Agreement (BASA).


The airline, which was at the centre of the storm, Tuesday had its entries into Heathrow Airport from Abuja increased from five to seven per week.

This was part of the outcome of the meetings between the officials of the Federal Government and their British Government counterparts over the suspension of Arik Air’s flights from Abuja to London and the reduction of slots of the British Airways (BA) to Lagos Airport as a retaliation by the Nigerian government."

http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/...a-uk-flights-idUSL5E7MF40B20111115
fair use:
"The issues are being resolved and negotiations with the British government are ongoing. In the meantime BA flights will continue seven times a week to Lagos until the end of December," said Joel Obi, aviation ministry press officer.

He said governments had negotiated to re-open flights from Nigeria's capital Abuja to London for its flagship airline Arik Air, running seven trips a week. London Heathrow had stopped Arik from flying Abuja-London last month."

Fantastic work by the Nigerians. Thus far.

The discussion is also carrying on here:
Nigeria Aviation Thread: Part 15 (by ssublyme May 2 2011 in Civil Aviation)#menu202

And more on the concessions that BA and the UK government have given to Nigeria thus far
http://www.thenationonlineng.net/201...2%80%99s-20%25-fare-cut-offer.html

Fair use quote:
"Special Assistant (Media) to Aviation Minister Mrs Stella Oduah, Mr Joe Obi, in a statement on the talks yesterday, said: “The Nigerian government and the British Authorities held high-level negotiations yesterday and this morning. These discussions are still on-going. The outcome thus far are as follows:
“With respect to the high fares charged by British Airways and the associated regional imbalance, the airline made an offer of a 20 per cent reduction in the lowest Business Class fare between Nigeria and the UK.
“The Nigerian side considered this as insufficient. The Nigerian government is still very concerned about the regional price disparity. We still strongly believe that this regional imbalance should be dismantled. In other words, BA should offer the same or similar fares from Nigeria to the UK as is the case in any other equidistant destination within West Africa.
 
“The British authorities requested to be given an opportunity to carry out an independent study of the regional pricing disparity in the UK/Nigerian aviation market. We expect the conclusion of this study by the end of the year to facilitate a conclusion on the subject.
“With respect to slot at Heathrow airport, seven slots per week from Abuja have been secured by the Federal Airports Authority of Nigeria (FAAN) for Arik Air at prevailing commercial rates.
“As you are aware, FAAN is renovating and upgrading their airports. These efforts will require a review of current slot allocations and additional funding. Towards this end, FAAN is considering applying commercial slot rates for slots into Murtala Mohammed International Airport in the spirit of Bilateral Air Service Agreement.
“The Nigerian flying public is advised to make wise choices about which airlines they fly as regards the pricing of their tickets.
“The Federal Ministry of Aviation assures Nigerians that their interests with regard to safety, security, comfort, service and affordability will remain our priority.”

Pretty good stuff. Exactly what one expects of their own government : to look out for it's citizens interests.

[Edited 2011-11-16 10:10:37]

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