Lufthansa To Discontinue Calgary

Honza · Sun Nov 06, 2011 7:24 am

Quoting whiteguy (Reply 25):
LH didn't fly to YYC in 2000!

..you're right, I had to look up the photobook to find out that it was an AC bird...

. I was so young and silly

H.

connies4ever · Sun Nov 06, 2011 7:52 am

There is also "opportunity cost" : redeploying the a/c serving FRA-YYC-FRA to another route might actually be more profitable. As well, FRA is I believe slot controlled, so to serve a new route LH will need to free up a slot. Perhaps Brazil, which is booming right now.

Pretty sure LH serve GRU, but do they serve GIG ? Remember, the World Cup is coming in 2014 and the Summer Olys in 2016. UIn the run-up to both, Germany will be sending squadrons of officials to scout out the lay of the land.

JoeCanuck · Sun Nov 06, 2011 9:03 am

Quoting connies4ever (Reply 51):
As well, FRA is I believe slot controlled

FRA didn't even get through celebrating their new runway when their night ops got shut down by NIMBY's. That means, among other things, more daytime cargo ops, further cutting into the slots available.

Moving resources to maximize profit is good business. It will not leave YYC under served to Europe.

cyeg66 · Sun Nov 06, 2011 2:38 pm

AC will be redeploying an A333 to FRA instead of the usual B763 starting on Feb 4th, it seems. I don't think they've got another available B77W to fly the route in the summer, though. That's as good as it may get.

AF086 · Sun Nov 06, 2011 2:50 pm

Quoting connies4ever (Reply 51):
Pretty sure LH serve GRU, but do they serve GIG ? Remember, the World Cup is coming in 2014 and the Summer Olys in 2016. UIn the run-up to both, Germany will be sending squadrons of officials to scout out the lay of the land.

Yes. LH serves GIG 5x weekly with the A343.

Semaex · Sun Nov 06, 2011 3:20 pm

Quoting connies4ever (Reply 51):
Pretty sure LH serve GRU, but do they serve GIG ? Remember, the World Cup is coming in 2014 and the Summer Olys in 2016. UIn the run-up to both, Germany will be sending squadrons of officials to scout out the lay of the land.

GIG is served with an A343, GRU is a big money-maker for LH, 7w B744, supposidly will be upgraded to B748i in 2012 (discussed in another thread right now).

Quoting JoeCanuck (Reply 52):
FRA didn't even get through celebrating their new runway when their night ops got shut down by NIMBY's. That means, among other things, more daytime cargo ops, further cutting into the slots available.

I remember the FRA employee's feast in June where the new runway could be visited (couple of tenthousand people came), then the FRA employees marathon which tracked over the new runway, and the inaugural flight with Chancellor Merkel a couple of weeks ago which was also celebrated with big media presence.
FRAport took their time to make sure the new runway gets enough publicity.

ACT7 · Mon Nov 07, 2011 7:11 pm

There have been a few comments about both Y and J class being full all the time, however this in and of itself does not imply high yield. J class can be full of either upgrades or overbooking Y. As was said in a previous post, international traffic to YYC is negative year-to-date so it seems that, for now at least, the market is sufficiently served. I do worry about the scale of the new international terminal expansion as it seems like a bit of overkill.

cyeg66 · Mon Nov 07, 2011 7:22 pm

^The 'negative' growth is attributable to fewer frequencies as compared to last year. Not necessarily fewer bums/airplane.

ACT7 · Mon Nov 07, 2011 7:25 pm

What are the fewer frequencies? AC to NRT increased frequency. BA and KL maintained their previous frequencies, as did LH. I thought AC also upgraded equipment on certain European routes, namely FRA and LHR.

c172akula · Mon Nov 07, 2011 7:27 pm

Quoting cyeg66 (Reply 57):
^The 'negative' growth is attributable to fewer frequencies as compared to last year. Not necessarily fewer bums/airplane.

Quoting ACT7 (Reply 58):
What are the fewer frequencies? AC to NRT increased frequency. BA and KL maintained their previous frequencies, as did LH. I thought AC also upgraded equipment on certain European routes, namely FRA and LHR.

Hey now you two, let's take this discussion back to SSP.

JoeCanuck · Mon Nov 07, 2011 7:28 pm

Quoting ACT7 (Reply 56):

I think the expansion is long overdue.

The international area at YYC does need an upgrade. It's a crowded mess for any flight I've taken to Europe. The international terminal gate areas will be designed for the larger sized aircraft than are normal for domestic flights, making departures more comfortable.

They are also planning on improving the customs and immigration areas which are not very fun at the moment.

The current international terminal can get converted to domestic operations.

The international terminal is only part of the expansion, with the new runway and rail transit access also included.

The extra space might not be needed now, but it's better to have a bit extra space and not need it than need the space and not have it.

c172akula · Mon Nov 07, 2011 7:42 pm

I would assume YYC could always use part of the new terminal to handle domestic ops and allow them to upgrade some of the older parts of the original terminal in the meantime. Pier B/C is in desperate need of an upgrade. At least A got a nice facelift a few years ago.

Thenoflyzone · Tue Nov 08, 2011 3:18 am

Quoting cyeg66 (Reply 53):
AC will be redeploying an A333 to FRA instead of the usual B763 starting on Feb 4th

Anyone know from which route that frame will be coming from?

Thenoflyzone

cyeg66 · Tue Nov 08, 2011 6:42 pm

Quoting ACT7 (Reply 58):
AC to NRT increased frequency.

Don't think so. It was announced, but then a little thing called a tsunami made that go away. It may have increased to 4/wk for a short while but I'm not sure.

Quoting ACT7 (Reply 58):
I thought AC also upgraded equipment on certain European routes, namely FRA and LHR.

Nope. In fact, they reduced their seats/frequencies to LHR. Status quo for FRA.

Quoting ACT7 (Reply 58):
What are the fewer frequencies?

I'll refer you TP 141 (Nav Canada's tower movements) and more specifically to the table that lists weight categories. If you look at the last column on said table, you'll find that there were roughly 150 fewer "heavy" movements go thru YYC in July August 2011 when compared with those same months 2010. Fewer charters and fewer sched flights contributed to this, and Fedex has actually been running MORE heavies to YYC this year compared with last thus that means even fewer pax flights to YYC included in those stats when compared with summer '10. So using my less-than-totally-anecdotal methodology, (flawed as it may be

) that's likely a minimum 150 fewer larger capacity airliners flying to and from YYC over the summer. That certainly accounts for the drop in passengers. If anything, the load factors are probably higher when compared with last summer.

abrelosojos · Wed Nov 09, 2011 5:46 am

This route bled for LH. It used an inefficient aircraft where JCL was primarily upgrades, redemptions, or catered for YCL overflow. Interestingly, FCL actually had good revenue pax.

YYC's new runway is an overkill. I was there in YYC and saw the design. The future of YYC in my mind is tied to the success and strategy of WS.

Saludos,
A.

c172akula · Wed Nov 09, 2011 2:15 pm

Quoting abrelosojos (Reply 64):
YYC's new runway is an overkill. I was there in YYC and saw the design. The future of YYC in my mind is tied to the success and strategy of WS.

How is the new parallel runway (which has been desperately needed for many years) overkill? Is it the length? YYC sits at 3557' ASL and density altitude can be a big issue on warmer days here. The 14,000' length is only a little longer than the current runway 34/16 (12,675').

YYC's future is not only tied into WS, AC also plays a huge roll (so often YYC'ers seem to dismiss what a large roll they play here). However I would argue that the single biggest player in our success and or failure is the Oil and Gas market, that rules all in YYC.

cyeg66 · Wed Nov 09, 2011 4:03 pm

Quoting C172Akula (Reply 65):

Good points, Biggie, (sidenote: was checking your Flickr pages, you got good stuff on there...) but I'd still like to hear what abrelosojos has to say about how it's "overkill". Remember that I also said such a thing early on: "need the runway, perhaps just not that much asphalt". If a fully laden A343 can depart 34L on a hot summer's day, then anything flying today or well into the future can also.

flyyul · Wed Nov 09, 2011 4:08 pm

Quoting C172Akula (Reply 65):
How is the new parallel runway (which has been desperately needed for many years) overkill? Is it the length? YYC sits at 3557' ASL and density altitude can be a big issue on warmer days here. The 14,000' length is only a little longer than the current runway 34/16 (12,675').

YYC's future is not only tied into WS, AC also plays a huge roll (so often YYC'ers seem to dismiss what a large roll they play here). However I would argue that the single biggest player in our success and or failure is the Oil and Gas market, that rules all in YYC.

Is it needed because of congestion?

cyeg66 · Wed Nov 09, 2011 4:13 pm

Yes, and to reduce interruptions during our lovely winter months.

c172akula · Wed Nov 09, 2011 4:14 pm

Quoting cyeg66 (Reply 66):
Good points, Biggie, (sidenote: was checking your Flickr pages, you got good stuff on there...)

You've put the pieces of the puzzle together I see.

I've had this account much longer than my SSP and Calpuck one!

cyeg66 · Wed Nov 09, 2011 4:15 pm

^A looooong time ago, my friend.

c172akula · Wed Nov 09, 2011 4:17 pm

Quoting cyeg66 (Reply 66):
Remember that I also said such a thing early on: "need the runway, perhaps just not that much asphalt". If a fully laden A343 can depart 34L on a hot summer's day, then anything flying today or well into the future can also.

I wonder how much more money it cost YYC to add the extra 1325' to the new runway? One of those "might as well do it" things?

YYCowboy · Wed Nov 09, 2011 5:37 pm

Quoting C172Akula (Reply 69):
You've put the pieces of the puzzle together I see

Whats your flicker page? I would like to see.

My closest relative uses LH YYC-FRA-WAW and back every month. Lufthansa has the travel bid and he is collecting whatever points he gets.
This news puzzles him because flights are always packed. This is removing a lot of seats off the run, leaving AC to pick up the slack. The timing of the Lufthansa flight was more convenient over AC for him.
Would Air Canada look at a 77W on this route?

I am looking forward to the new YYC, its good thinking and planning. Combined with YEG improvements, Alberta has great aviation choices. Pretty much 1 stop any where you want to go.
Both Calgary and Edmonton will only keep growing, no matter the boom bust cycles.

Thenoflyzone · Wed Nov 09, 2011 6:57 pm

Quoting flyyul (Reply 67):

Is it needed because of congestion?

YYC handles 15 - 20,000 more movements than YUL every year, and without a parallel runway.

Max AAR for YYC is around 34. While the AAR for YUL is around 55.

So yes, very much needed.

Thenoflyzone

abrelosojos · Thu Nov 10, 2011 2:02 am

Quoting C172Akula (Reply 65):
How is the new parallel runway (which has been desperately needed for many years) overkill? Is it the length? YYC sits at 3557' ASL and density altitude can be a big issue on warmer days here. The 14,000' length is only a little longer than the current runway 34/16 (12,675').

= I have no interest or desire to chime in to the YYC runway stuff - there seems to be enough YYC people here. As an outsider, in the business, I look at the volumes, and the realistic projections, and I just think that YYC's runway is not needed. FWIW at an investor conference, their master projections have 2 380 operators by 2015/16. I just think they are ambitious targets for an airport that is not on the map for a lot of global airlines.

Quoting C172Akula (Reply 65):
YYC's future is not only tied into WS, AC also plays a huge roll (so often YYC'ers seem to dismiss what a large roll they play here). However I would argue that the single biggest player in our success and or failure is the Oil and Gas market, that rules all in YYC.

= Of course AC plays a role. But it is WS that will grow YYC - not AC. The hub strategy and strength for AC is the East - YYC will ALWAYS be secondary in developing a network. For WS, YYC and YYZ plays an equal role - and I'd think that it is in YYC's interest to court WS and keep them happy.

Quoting YYCowboy (Reply 72):
My closest relative uses LH YYC-FRA-WAW and back every month. Lufthansa has the travel bid and he is collecting whatever points he gets.
This news puzzles him because flights are always packed.

= This is fine and good - but the internal numbers tell a different story. YYC IS high yielding on certain surprising routes - not to Europe. I cannot share the numbers - but if LH was as successful as you think, why would they leave? This is one of the most well run network airlines out there.

Saludos,
A.

Thenoflyzone · Thu Nov 10, 2011 2:42 am

Quoting abrelosojos (Reply 74):
I look at the volumes, and the realistic projections, and I just think that YYC's runway is not needed

Name me 1 airport in the world (excluding airports who have no room to expand, such as LGA or DCA) that handles 240,000 IFR movements a year, and doesn't have a parallel runway !

Nuff said.

Thenoflyzone

[Edited 2011-11-09 19:04:31]

Viscount724 · Thu Nov 10, 2011 2:43 am

Quoting abrelosojos (Reply 74):
I just think that YYC's runway is not needed.

I disagree. Look at Transport Canada's daily incident summaries and there are many missed approaches/overshoots at YYC due to conflicts with simultaneous operations using intersecting runways. That wastes a lot of time and money for the carriers, disrupts schedules, and also creates safety concerns that will be significantly improved with parallel runways. Also have to consider YYC's often less than ideal weather conditions and strong winds.

c172akula · Thu Nov 10, 2011 2:49 am

Quoting abrelosojos (Reply 74):
I have no interest or desire to chime in to the YYC runway stuff

Yet you did chime in with your original post. As actual ATC'ers on here have reported you are only looking at passenger volumes and not actual aircraft movements. There is more to YYC than just the scheduled airline flights. There is a heck of a lot of traffic up to YMM with aircraft from King Airs to 737 size (as just one example of O&G traffic).

I do not believe those flights and their passengers show up on the official YYC pax numbers as they all depart out of the FBO's on the south end of the field. Movements don't lie though, and that parallel is needed.

[Edited 2011-11-09 18:50:13]

c172akula · Thu Nov 10, 2011 2:17 pm

As expected AC has announced that they will put the A333 on the FRA route, effective April 2012. AC has also announced that YYC-NRT will go to 5x weekly, with the ultimate goal of daily service still being pursued, pending regulatory approvals in Japan.

http://aircanada.mediaroom.com/index.php?s=43&item=494

cyeg66 · Thu Nov 10, 2011 4:04 pm

The problem is, everyone wants to come and go at the same time. There are hours and hours throughout the day that we sit around with little traffic, but then from 4pm onward, everyone and their dog wants to land at YYC. Flow control is a way of life (regardless of weather) Mon-Fri. The ATC system is complex and tough to train people on, certainly more precision required than parallel ops, and the mix of traffic makes it more difficult. (Think: DCA, LGW, SAN, LGA, etc have one type and one type only of airplanes in terms of performance envelope). We're vectoring to crossing runways without using LAHSO ops in very different winds on each runway. Labor intensive, to say the least, which explains the inevitable missed approaches. "Unexpected aircraft performance " is the catchphrase for "Oops". So we've got quiet hours and then there are busy hours, hours during which commercial airlines would like to expand, and GA bizjets would also like to arrive (and not issued 3 hr ground delays at their point of origin). It's been made clear that a certain carrier would also like to add more but for lack of gates/arrival "slots", it can't with today's infrastructure. During snowstorms, the airport currently closes for 10 minutes every hour to sweep the main runway (wind and runway friction preclude running intersecting ops.) Not ideal. With a parallel, then at the very least, the airport will never have to shut down. The list of plusses is "long and distinguished".

edited: I kant spel.

[Edited 2011-11-10 08:34:40]

longhauler · Thu Nov 10, 2011 4:22 pm

Quoting abrelosojos (Reply 74):
= Of course AC plays a role. But it is WS that will grow YYC - not AC. The hub strategy and strength for AC is the East - YYC will ALWAYS be secondary in developing a network.

And yet, AC carries more passengers out of YYC than WS, and continues to grow.

Bottom line is that when airlines make these decisions that seem illogical to us "mortals", we have to remember they have access to numbers that we could only dream of.

Lufthansa To Discontinue Calgary

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