Quoting mah4546 (Reply 43): Also, somewhat related, Belgrade has decent demand to cities all over the Midwest, including obviously ORD, but DTW and CLE too. It's one of CLE's biggest Europe markets.

Jat used to operate flights in CLE in the 1980s using its DC-10. If I recall correctly it used to operate twice per week.

In 1981 they operated 3 flights per week to Chicago, 5 to New York and then 3 to Toronto. Australia used to be three times per week as well.

Quoting LO231 (Reply 49): not Eastern Europe geographically,

Well I don't think he was referring to Eastern Europe in geographic terms.

Quoting LO231 (Reply 49): Ukraine is not an EU country....

EU was an abbriviation for European... no European Union...

In addition to all what is said above - Since travelors from these countries have to change plane anyway since there is no point for O and D traffic that needs anything bigger than a Global express, they prefer to do it at a nearby airport they know, which means CDG, FRA or LHR.

Quoting Filipair (Reply 40): Ukraine's longhaul position is perhaps unique because Ukrainian citizens do not have visa-free access to Western European hubs

Good point. And almost every other country in Europe have visa free access to the EU making a change of plane very easy. Heathrow is a bit different with some nationals needing to have transit visa's although this is reduced nowadays as long as they hold a visa for the US/Canada/OZ.

Eastern European airlines in general are not doing well! LCCs (especially Ryanair/Easyjet and most of all Wizzair). Even business passengers use LCCs within Europe sometimes as being the fastest direct route to a destination. Anyone from the UK wanting to visit secondary Romanian cities would probably use Wizzair over a change of plane in Germany and alot more money. UK-Macedonia links are only LCC, as are direct flights from the UK to Lithuania, Slovakia. Native airlines in these countries are basically non-existent.

The megabubs and the giants such as
Lufthansa which has a VAST network in Eastern Europe (too large to list but huge)
BA (good for the major capitals)
Swiss
KLM
Air France
Austrian Airlines
cover the region extremely well and offer so many more routes than the Eastern European carriers themselves offer.

The future for Eastern European carriers is not money loosing transatlantic operations but becoming efficient feeders for the giants and struggling to survive in the face of far more efficent carries such as Ryanair and Wizzair.

Quoting adriaticflight (Reply 53): The megabubs and the giants such as Lufthansa which has a VAST network in Eastern Europe (too large to list but huge) BA (good for the major capitals) Swiss KLM Air France Austrian Airlines

You must be joking, mate. Check my airport. I live in Kaunas, but when I need to fly overseas, I go to Vilnius. Which airline could I choose out of your list?
British? it doesn't fly here
Swiss? nope, doesn't fly here
KLM? doesn't fly here
Air France? Yes, you guessed it right, they don't come here, either

time and again I choose who to fly from a very extensive list:
2 lufthansas (the real one, twice daily, and Austrian, 1*F100)
Finnair twice daily
SAS twice daily.
What else? Even Aeroflot doesn't fly here  

Next summer, I plan to go to Brazil. I'll have to depart Vilnius at some 6:25am. On the return leg, even though my flight to Europe comes back early in the morning, I can essentially choose among flights arriving in Vilnius at 11:35pm, 0:15am and 0:40am. Imagine the connection times  

We are not spoilt for choice. I really wish your list materialized...

In addition to what everyone else has already said, some of these routes are quite long when compared to western European routes, which always adds economic challenges. Mark brought up LAX-BUD as a market with potential -- that one is 5428 nm! That's long enough that you need an A340 or 777 (or 787 in a few years) to fly it, unless you're going to push a 763 or 332 to its absolute limits. But the demand makes it a 767 market at best. And of course long routes increase fuel costs out of proportion to their length.

Quoting TWA902fly (Reply 36): Quoting LJ (Reply 14): Not correct. Delta Airlines flew to LED in the mid 90s if I'm not mistaken.

Quoting LO231 (Reply 49): I flew one of the two daily WAW-FRA ( one was LED-WAW-FRA, another WAW-PRG-FRA) on DL's 72S, based in FRA after demise of PA....

DL flew to LED from HEL as a tag on route as well. With an L10 and A310

Quoting seabosdca (Reply 56): In addition to what everyone else has already said, some of these routes are quite long when compared to western European routes, which always adds economic challenges. Mark brought up LAX-BUD as a market with potential -- that one is 5428 nm! That's long enough that you need an A340 or 777 (or 787 in a few years) to fly it, unless you're going to push a 763 or 332 to its absolute limits. But the demand makes it a 767 market at best. And of course long routes increase fuel costs out of proportion to their length.

I didn't mean to say it had potential. I just said it could fill a plane with ease. The yield sucks and it requires 1.5 frames. At least with Miami and Chicago, the yield still isn't great, but you only need one frame.

And a 767 can probably do LAXBUD no problem depending on how equipped, just like Aeroflot had used them in LAXSVO for years.

With these markets, though, that can easily be stimulated, I don't think a 332 is too big of a plane. LAXBER is going to use a 332 and it's right in this market size range, on the higher end. So was MIABER until Air Berlin started non-sops and the local market exploded, while TAP is filling 332s on MIALIS, a market smaller than LAXBUD or MIABUD. It is insanely easy to stimulate demand between Europe and Miami, Los Angeles and San Francisco. The only hard part is stimulating the market without getting the fare too low.

[Edited 2011-11-07 19:10:17]

I don't see westward connections being what Eastern Europe will develop.
The links to the US that people speak about, mostly old immigration, wont drive traffic. Its business and tourism that drives traffic and in both these categories, the focus is shifting eastwards rapidly.
Were seeing Asian industries set up their factories in Eastern Europe, utilising its cheaper labour costs and great central locations. (Car factories in Czech Republic, Slovakia and Poland are one example of this - Three decades ago these factories would have been located in Belgium and the UK instead).
A lot of new investments into European production happens in Eastern Europe.
Were seeing Korean fly to Prague already. Tourism plays a huge role of course but business isn't small and its increasing rapidly.

China is the coming market for Eastern Europe.
Not just business but eventually tourism too. Hainan is today filled with Russian tourists. Most of them aren't from Europe but itll come...

Thailand, Europe's favourite "exotic holiday destinations" already established as the faraway destination for any self-respecting European. Walk down the streets of Sukhumvit and you see more Eastern Europeans than you see at the pubs in London these days.
The love for Florida is in my opinion more in the minds of some posters than real at agencies and in Europeans mindsets. In the UK Florida is different there its real and a prime destination. The rest of Europe not so, there its just one of many holiday destinations. One more of an option but seen as a bit lacking the beach resorts charm. (For a European anything over 1.2 is cheap - we were told the Euro would be around 0.9-1.1 against the dollar but its been 1.3-1.6 for years.

In conclusion, Thailand and China are the frist two places I see Eastern European airlines flying to if they decide to go longhaul.
North America = New York for Eastern Europeans.
Chaters to Brazil coming one day to I would guess.

Quoting MillwallSean (Reply 59): The love for Florida is in my opinion more in the minds of some posters than real at agencies and in Europeans mindsets.

You are right, I have never seen commericials for summer holidays in the US anywhere in Eastern Europe. For example, Emirates have had their office in Belgrade for more than 10 years now offering package tours for all sort of places in Asia and Africa.
Plus, I do not see why people praise Florida so much as a tourist destination? I found it quite dissappointing especially when compared to Turkey, Egypt or Greece.

Quoting MillwallSean (Reply 59): North America = New York for Eastern Europeans.

Well, Chicago as well. Especially when talking about Serbs and Poles.

Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 61): It's pretty self-evident if you ask me. BA, AF, and LH all send in their high-density jumbos to MIA as well as IB, AZ, KL, LX, AB, and TP all sending in their own metal quite frequently.

I think he was referring to East Europeans who prefer to go to Asia/Africa for holidays rather than the US like the Westerners.

Quoting MillwallSean (Reply 59): The love for Florida is in my opinion more in the minds of some posters than real at agencies and in Europeans mindsets.

O&D stats show that is not the case. Eastern Europeaners not only love to visit Florida, but they love California even more.

Between January 2010 and December 2010, approximately 30% more local passengers flew between Miami and Budapest than between Bangkok and Budapest. And between California (LAX+SFO), the market is more than 120% larger than BUDBKK. Poles and Czechs do prefer Thailand to Florida and California; Hungarians and Romanians do not.

[Edited 2011-11-07 23:46:14 by MAH4546]

[Edited 2011-11-07 23:46:38 by MAH4546]

Quoting luckyone (Reply 10): Both carriers are based in Moscow. Moscow alone has a larger population than most of the countries in Eastern Europe (in the Eastern Bloc, only Ukraine, Poland, and Romania have larger populations than the City of Moscow).

There is no thing such as the Eastern Bloc, that ended with the fall of the Soviet Union. Poland (and Romania) are part of EU not the Eastern Bloc:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eastern_Bloc

Quoting milan320 (Reply 65): There is no thing such as the Eastern Bloc, that ended with the fall of the Soviet Union. Poland (and Romania) are part of EU not the Eastern Bloc: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eastern_Bloc

Don't forget Bulgaria, too.  

I'm well aware of that, having been to several parts of it. I probably could have said FORMER Eastern Bloc, but I was under the assumption that everyone in this thread would be aware of such details, but for clarification purposes I'll keep that in mind.

[Edited 2011-11-08 05:59:52]

Quoting MillwallSean (Reply 59): China

Quoting MillwallSean (Reply 59): Thailand

Quoting MillwallSean (Reply 59): In conclusion, Thailand and China are the frist two places I see Eastern European airlines flying to if they decide to go longhaul. North America = New York for Eastern Europeans. Chaters to Brazil coming one day to I would guess.

Well, LO is already flying WAW-HAN 3x weekly. WAW-PEK is probably going to be their next Asian route after the 787's start to arrive. The trouble with BKK is that it's low-yielding, there is lot's of competition to Europe and most tourists will probably be there on a package holiday. LOT Charters should probably tap into the market...

VV flies to BKK, PEK, CMB, DEL, SGN (from 12 Dec) in addition to JFK and YYZ.

Malev and CSA are no longer in the position to serve longhaul routes. Austrian has trimmed many of its longhaul routes in the past 10 years and perhaps only AB is showing signs of growth in the Central European longhaul market at the moment.

So other than AB, it's really LO and VV that we're talking about as far as "Eastern European Longhaul" goes... I wonder, what other routes is either airline in a position to capitalize on?

Quoting mah4546 (Reply 64): O&D stats show that is not the case. Eastern Europeaners not only love to visit Florida, but they love California even more. Between January 2010 and December 2010, approximately 30% more local passengers flew between Miami and Budapest than between Bangkok and Budapest. And between California (LAX SFO), the market is more than 120% larger than BUDBKK. Poles and Czechs do prefer Thailand to Florida and California; Hungarians and Romanians do not.

Care to enlighten us as to actual numbers? It would be interesting to know what market potential exists.

Quoting luckyone (Reply 67): I'm well aware of that, having been to several parts of it. I probably could have said FORMER Eastern Bloc, but I was under the assumption that everyone in this thread would be aware of such details, but for clarification purposes I'll keep that in mind.

If anything, the name "Former Eastern Bloc" for certain Central and Eastern European countries is archaic.

Agreed. I was--apparently failingly--trying to correlate political history with current economical realities. The words got in the way. :p

Quoting Filipair (Reply 68): Care to enlighten us as to actual numbers? It would be interesting to know what market potential exists.

I can't share the actual numbers, but the market size from the major Eastern European cities - Prague, Kiev, Warsaw, Budapest and Bucharest - to major holiday destinations - Bangkok, Los Angeles, Miami and San Franciaco - are all roughly between 15,000 and 29,000 annual passengers.

Quoting ZKCIF (Reply 54): I live in Kaunas, but when I need to fly overseas, I go to Vilnius. Which airline could I choose out of your list?

That's true. Lithuania is a different market. I was trying to make the point that some coutries (such as yours) are under the control of LCCS. Lithuania is LCC central. others have existing connections with "legacy" carriers that offer connecting destinations. However i take your point   fly to london with Ryanair and fly to Brazil from here  

Quoting adriaticflight (Reply 71): fly to london with Ryanair and fly to Brazil from here

My wife cannot stand Ryanair, and with our luggage it would not get any cheaper, either. i want to avoid LHR at any expense just because of the olympics btw. We're going to fly
SK VNO-CPH
TP CPH-LIS-GIG
and return
TP REC-LIS-WAW
LO WAW-VNO
The most ironic thing is that both leaving and returning we'll be overnighting at Vilnius airport hotel. 95km from home. very sarcastic indeed, but that will make the trip more solemn.
As we're going to take two dozen of domestic flights in Brazil, I'm planning a huge trip report covering the seven most important carriers of Brazil.

Quoting ZKCIF (Reply 72): As we're going to take two dozen of domestic flights in Brazil, I'm planning a huge trip report covering the seven most important carriers of Brazil.

Sounds amazing! I remember my first flight to Vilnius back in 1991, Lithuanian Airlines. Still fondly remember it. Enjoy Brazil, its great.

Quoting adriaticflight (Reply 73): my first flight to Vilnius back in 1991, Lithuanian Airlines

What metal did you fly? in your user profile, i don't see mentioning any YAK or anything like that. Did they already have anything western at that time?!

Now that Eastern Bloc does not exist Poland is in Central Europe not Eastern (at least from the geographic point of view). LO has ordered 8 787 with option for another 7. LO said that their first 787 will fly WAW-NRT route. They also plan to reestablish WAW-PEK so new routes are coming to the region.
I think that the torment that TSA puts pax at US airport through does not ad to the general appeal of coming for vacations here especially when you have cheaper options in Asia. Not to mention that for many countries the visa requirements and even no visa the immigration experience is not so great.
Over all, I think that there are going to be more Asian routes in the future as oppose traditional US/Canada.

An article (sorry, Polish only) just came out on Pasazer.com about LOT's Longhaul plans.

Here is a paraphrase of some of the highlights:

1. LOT has supposedly negotiated 3/weekly Siberian Overflight rights for flights to PEK and NRT each.

2. Ticket sales on WAWPEK are intended to start in January, route may commence as soon as 1 June, using 763 equipment.

3. There are some questions about the viability of WAWPEK (RE: Summer 2008 when the route ran for 2 months, albeit with poor timing), stating perhaps NRT and especially PVG or SZX may be more promising.

4. Longhaul expansion without additional 763's leads to questions about whether WAWHAN or WAWEWR might be cancelled. Alternatively, 767's or 777's may still be leased to accommodate expansion, as part of a 787 delays compensation package.

5. Rumors have been floating around about LOT considering another route like HAN (little competition from Europe, moderate local O&D demand) namely CGK, LAS, or HYD, however any of these will very obviously be very low yielding.

6. LOT has expressed the need to start flights to the US west coast (i.e. LAX).


In my opinion, WAWLAS and WAWCGK (with a stop to address range issues), in addition to WAWDAR, and others, would be excellent routes for LOT Charters to fly with a hand-me-down 763 on a weekly or biweekly (every two weeks) basis.

LOT should concentrate on what's going to bring in Business traffic between Asia and Poland as well as connections from it's strong shorthaul network in Central Europe.

[Edited 2011-11-10 09:19:26]

Quoting irshava (Reply 51): Quoting LO231 (Reply 49): Ukraine is not an EU country.... EU was an abbriviation for European... no European Union...

Point taken, sorry

Quoting adriaticflight (Reply 53): The megabubs and the giants such as Lufthansa which has a VAST network in Eastern Europe (too large to list but huge) BA (good for the major capitals) Swiss KLM Air France Austrian Airlines cover the region extremely well and offer so many more routes than the Eastern European carriers themselves offer.

Try VNO-WAW-US/CAN, prices are being fair right now

Quoting ZKCIF (Reply 54): What else? Even Aeroflot doesn't fly here

Being biased, LOL, LO does sometimes in the heat of the moment... LOL

Quoting seabosdca (Reply 56): unless you're going to push a 763 or 332 to its absolute limits. But the demand makes it a 767 market at best. And of course long routes increase fuel costs out of proportion to their length.

I was to comment on this, but there's an answer:

Quoting mah4546 (Reply 58): And a 767 can probably do LAXBUD no problem depending on how equipped, just like Aeroflot had used them in LAXSVO for years.

Quoting toobz (Reply 57): Quoting TWA902fly (Reply 36): Quoting LJ (Reply 14): Not correct. Delta Airlines flew to LED in the mid 90s if I'm not mistaken. Quoting LO231 (Reply 49): I flew one of the two daily WAW-FRA ( one was LED-WAW-FRA, another WAW-PRG-FRA) on DL's 72S, based in FRA after demise of PA.... DL flew to LED from HEL as a tag on route as well. With an L10 and A310

Thaay also did WAW-TXL-JFK on 310....

Quoting MillwallSean (Reply 59): China is the coming market for Eastern Europe.

Isn't it for any country in the world nowadays?

Quoting ju068 (Reply 60): Plus, I do not see why people praise Florida so much as a tourist destination? I found it quite dissappointing especially when compared to Turkey, Egypt or Greece.

Warm ocean opposed to cold water in the Meditteranean, let me see....
GO FLORIDA !!!

Quoting ju068 (Reply 60): Quoting MillwallSean (Reply 59): North America = New York for Eastern Europeans. Well, Chicago as well. Especially when talking about Serbs and Poles.

Soooo very true, LO will never be driven out of ORD LOL

Quoting Filipair (Reply 68): So other than AB, it's really LO and VV that we're talking about as far as "Eastern European Longhaul" goes... I wonder, what other routes is either airline in a position to capitalize on?

LO whispers NRT, PEK and more flights to SGN, wonder why.... every corner in WAW has a Vietnamese ( delicious) mini Vietnamese restaurant....

Rgds,
Piotr

Interestingly enough,

YUL has identified OTP as a potential new destination for the short term (1-2 years).

See page 12 of the following link (french only).

http://www.admtl.com/UploadedFiles/A...lleDePresse/Industrie_tourisme.pdf

Honestly, i only see TS possibly flying YUL-OTP once a week, seasonally. I don't see the return of TAROM to YUL, at least not in the short term.

Thenoflyzone

[Edited 2011-11-13 14:24:19]

Quoting RixRat (Reply 19): Speaking of Latvia, the now defunct American Trans Air (ATA) tried a JFK-RIX service in the early 90s and it failed, I think, within a year using L-1011s. It was a pet project of the Latvian-born founder of ATA, but apparently he nixed the bean counters who told him that Latvians, just emerging from the Soviet Union, could not afford to fly to NYC, and the plane could not be filled up with ex-pats coming to RIX to visit relatives. So, they continued flying U.S. troops. On the other hand, RIX still has long haul connections via a direct flight on Uzbekistan Airways (HY) which makes a pit stop in RIX from Tashkent to JFK. I've tried to access their web site several times, but I've given up in frustration in finding anything meaningful. They fly 767s to JFK and may refuel in Shannon. Can't seem to get that information.

Just to clarify the above -- ATA used a 757 rather than an L-1011 on JFK-RIX, with a stop in Belfast. In my one experience in 1994 the a/c was full of Irishmen from JFK to Belfast, but almost empty on the leg to Riga.

The present Uzbek (HY) single weekly flight from JFK to RIX uses a 767-300 nonstop. Agreed that their website is horrible (as is their service). To get any info you have to go to their office in midtown Manhattan or in Riga.

An additional point re RIX: I believe the 2 757-200 presently operated by Air Baltic were leased with the intention to start services to New York (and maybe some long haul to Asia), but those plans fell apart at the onset of the crisis...

[Edited 2011-11-14 07:22:51]

Quoting ZKCIF (Reply 74): What metal did you fly? in your user profile, i don't see mentioning any YAK or anything like that.

It was a mistake on my behalf   i visited in 2001! In 1991 i was 8years old.   I flew on a 737-200. nice flights