Moderators: jsumali2, richierich, ua900, PanAm_DC10, hOMSaR

 
IndianicWorld
Posts: 3371
Joined: Mon Jun 04, 2001 11:32 am

RE: Australian Aviation Thread #56

Mon Nov 21, 2011 7:37 am

Quoting thegeek (Reply 51):
I'd wonder if flying to MEL would be more likely? With the reluctance of QF to fly internationally from points other than SYD, they could keep the market to themselves. I guess the question is did the VA flight fail just because of the ETOPS diversion (probably not), so could SA succeed where VA failed?

ETOPS would not have helped at all, but yields were fairly low from what I had heard.

I think that SAA could do better, with the right aircraft and the feed at JNB. If they were to have an interline agreement atleast from/into MEL with VA/DJ, things get a lot more promising though. VA had good feed into MEL but had a dead end in JNB.

I know MEL airport and the Vic govt are pushing hard for a route to JNB, so I guess we will just have to wait and see. I definately see no point in SAA flying to SYD though given QF's flights.
 
qf002
Posts: 3669
Joined: Tue Jul 05, 2011 11:14 am

RE: Australian Aviation Thread #56

Mon Nov 21, 2011 8:08 am

Quoting thegeek (Reply 51):
Still a 400km or so diversion:

Which isn't too bad on a flight that's almost 8500km long anyway...

Quoting thegeek (Reply 51):
They've got plenty of 747-400s so they could just as easily put one of them on the route if they really wanted to challenge SA after the end of the agreement.

Not for much longer, and they're simply far too big and inefficient. 320 extra seats 3-4 days a week is too many for the route, which SAA is only flying 6 times weekly with an A342/3 anyway.

Quoting IndianicWorld (Reply 53):
I think that SAA could do better, with the right aircraft and the feed at JNB.

A342?
 
JQflightie
Posts: 548
Joined: Wed Mar 04, 2009 6:18 am

RE: Australian Aviation Thread #56

Mon Nov 21, 2011 8:19 am

maybe QF could go back into HRE and then codeshare on BA down to JNB??
When is my next holiday?
 
IndianicWorld
Posts: 3371
Joined: Mon Jun 04, 2001 11:32 am

RE: Australian Aviation Thread #56

Mon Nov 21, 2011 8:25 am

Quoting qf002 (Reply 54):
A342?

Any A340 series could do it as they do not have the ETOPS issues of the twins. SAA have A343 and A346 they can utilise.
 
kiwiandrew

RE: Australian Aviation Thread #56

Mon Nov 21, 2011 8:25 am

Quoting JQflightie (Reply 55):
maybe QF could go back into HRE and then codeshare on BA down to JNB??

Anything is possible, but I doubt it, Zimbabwe is a basket case and QF only used it as a back door to JNB when the Aussie government of the day made them pull out of JNB because of apartheid.
 
Gemuser
Posts: 5084
Joined: Mon Nov 24, 2003 12:07 pm

RE: Australian Aviation Thread #56

Mon Nov 21, 2011 8:49 am

Quoting IndianicWorld (Reply 56):

Any A340 series could do it as they do not have the ETOPS issues of the twins.

They do from 2015. Will this result in diversions? I don't know, but it could.

Gemuser
DC23468910;B72172273373G73873H74374475275376377L77W;A319 320321332333343;BAe146;C402;DHC6;F27;L188;MD80MD85
 
User avatar
RyanairGuru
Posts: 8374
Joined: Wed Nov 01, 2006 3:59 am

RE: Australian Aviation Thread #56

Mon Nov 21, 2011 11:07 am

Quoting kiwiandrew (Reply 54):
QF only used it as a back door to JNB when the Aussie government of the day made them pull out of JNB because of apartheid.

Also, while there are a LOT of Rhodesians in Australia, most have completely severed ties to their homeland with all of their families now in either South Africa or the UK. Therefore any O&D market to Zim has pretty much completely dried up.
Worked Hard, Flew Right
 
Sydscott
Posts: 3513
Joined: Thu Oct 30, 2003 11:50 am

RE: Australian Aviation Thread #56

Mon Nov 21, 2011 9:34 pm

Quoting IndianicWorld (Reply 47):
The yields on SA-Australia are inflated by arrangements like this.. Add in more capacity and the result will be less than ideal for both.
Quoting kiwiandrew (Reply 49):
If they do either of those then I wouldn't be surprised to see SA starting back on the JNB-SYD direct route.

The IASC, in their ruling, believes that in the absence of the codeshare arrangement that the route would essentially remain unchanged with SAA having a monopoly PER service and QF having the monopoly SYD service. They don't believe that either would initiate new services or have the willingness to do so because of the amount of $$$ they're currently printing.

Personally I think that QF would have to re-start a minimal PER-JNB service because of the mining industry and VFR traffic but who knows. QF International hasn't exactly been smart lately! SAA meanwhile can re-start its codeshareing with Virgin out of PER to cover all of the Eastern states.
 
thegeek
Posts: 1334
Joined: Mon Nov 26, 2007 7:20 am

RE: Australian Aviation Thread #56

Mon Nov 21, 2011 10:08 pm

Quoting qf002 (Reply 51):
Not for much longer, and they're simply far too big and inefficient. 320 extra seats 3-4 days a week is too many for the route, which SAA is only flying 6 times weekly with an A342/3 anyway.

Went to A346 at one point I thought? Certainly you couldn't contemplate such a large aircraft more than 3 times a week. Maybe even 2/week. Would pick up a few who are now flying via SIN/KUL most likely though.

Quoting gemuser (Reply 55):
They do from 2015. Will this result in diversions? I don't know, but it could.

I thought ETOPS only applied from 2017?
 
alangirvan
Posts: 522
Joined: Wed Nov 08, 2000 2:13 pm

RE: Australian Aviation Thread #56

Mon Nov 21, 2011 10:18 pm

What sort of traffic is flying indirectly between Australia and South Africa? If people do not mind a huge dog leg, some of them fly through Dubai, which adds quite a lot of time to the flight. Flying through SIN/KUL and HKG is still done.

As a separate thought, many European airlines fly to Cape Town as well as JNB. I wonder if there would be a market for flights from Australia to Cape Town. SQ has some flights to CPT, there would be Australian traffic on those flights.
 
Sydscott
Posts: 3513
Joined: Thu Oct 30, 2003 11:50 am

RE: Australian Aviation Thread #56

Mon Nov 21, 2011 10:31 pm

Quoting alangirvan (Reply 59):
What sort of traffic is flying indirectly between Australia and South Africa?

All of that data is actually in the IASC report. According to them 76% of traffic on the route flies directly and only 24% goes indirect. What's more interesting is that from SYD and PER only 15% of Australia - South Africa traffic goes indirect with everyone else on direct services. So the competition from hubs in SIN and KUL is virtually negligible. If we want more competitive prices then we need another Australian or South Africa competitor. Either that or let Singapore Airlines onto the direct route from Australia...............
 
Gemuser
Posts: 5084
Joined: Mon Nov 24, 2003 12:07 pm

RE: Australian Aviation Thread #56

Mon Nov 21, 2011 11:33 pm

Quoting thegeek (Reply 58):
Quoting gemuser (Reply 55):
They do from 2015. Will this result in diversions? I don't know, but it could.

I thought ETOPS only applied from 2017?

I have seen both dates on the CASA web site and in the press. Your guess is as good as mine!

Gemuser
DC23468910;B72172273373G73873H74374475275376377L77W;A319 320321332333343;BAe146;C402;DHC6;F27;L188;MD80MD85
 
thegeek
Posts: 1334
Joined: Mon Nov 26, 2007 7:20 am

RE: Australian Aviation Thread #56

Tue Nov 22, 2011 12:59 am

Quoting sydscott (Reply 60):
All of that data is actually in the IASC report. According to them 76% of traffic on the route flies directly and only 24% goes indirect. What's more interesting is that from SYD and PER only 15% of Australia - South Africa traffic goes indirect with everyone else on direct services. So the competition from hubs in SIN and KUL is virtually negligible. If we want more competitive prices then we need another Australian or South Africa competitor. Either that or let Singapore Airlines onto the direct route from Australia...............

Thanks so much for actually posting the facts.

Even 15% is basically one more flight/week with current equipment. There is also the "Southwest effect" where lowering the fares increases the size of the market. You would have to rely on this effect to consider flying the route.
 
alangirvan
Posts: 522
Joined: Wed Nov 08, 2000 2:13 pm

RE: Australian Aviation Thread #56

Tue Nov 22, 2011 1:30 am

Who would be the ideal airline to come onto the route? Virgin Australia will not be adding a lot of international flying to anywhere in the near future. It may be that MEL was just the wrong port for them - they should have added services from SYD or PER first, if those are the cities where most South Africans come to live. Twin engined aircraft are not the ideal planes for the Great Circle route between SYD and JNB. A380s might be good aircraft at peak times. Even Singapore Airlines only has 77Ws and A380s, and their A380s are all spoken for.

There does not seem to be any South African based airline that is big enough to come on the route and be a strong competitor. They did have Nationwide which had a single 763 used on services to the UK, but that airline is no more.

If Virgin Australia and Virgin Atlantic did a joint operation, Virgin Australia could charter a VS A346. These planes fly from LHR to JNB and sit there all day until they return home during the evening. Similarly the LHR-SYD plane spends a lot of time sitting on the ground at SYD. It would take a bit of setting up to get approval from all the governments, but it seems like the best way of adding competition to the route.
 
qf002
Posts: 3669
Joined: Tue Jul 05, 2011 11:14 am

RE: Australian Aviation Thread #56

Tue Nov 22, 2011 2:19 am

Quoting thegeek (Reply 58):
Would pick up a few who are now flying via SIN/KUL most likely though.

Not from PER. Maybe from the Eastern States, but from PER it's like flying to SYD to get on the QF service...

Quoting alangirvan (Reply 59):
What sort of traffic is flying indirectly between Australia and South Africa

The traffic that can't afford $4k fares.
 
JQflightie
Posts: 548
Joined: Wed Mar 04, 2009 6:18 am

RE: Australian Aviation Thread #56

Tue Nov 22, 2011 2:22 am

Quoting alangirvan (Reply 63):
Who would be the ideal airline to come onto the route? Virgin Australia will not be adding a lot of international flying to anywhere in the near future. It may be that MEL was just the wrong port for them - they should have added services from SYD or PER first, if those are the cities where most South Africans come to live. Twin engined aircraft are not the ideal planes for the Great Circle route between SYD and JNB. A380s might be good aircraft at peak times. Even Singapore Airlines only has 77Ws and A380s, and their A380s are all spoken for.

There does not seem to be any South African based airline that is big enough to come on the route and be a strong competitor. They did have Nationwide which had a single 763 used on services to the UK, but that airline is no more.

If Virgin Australia and Virgin Atlantic did a joint operation, Virgin Australia could charter a VS A346. These planes fly from LHR to JNB and sit there all day until they return home during the evening. Similarly the LHR-SYD plane spends a lot of time sitting on the ground at SYD. It would take a bit of setting up to get approval from all the governments, but it seems like the best way of adding competition to the route.

well..... it could be easily done with a A330 from PER. We usually bring a A333 from SYD/MEL to PER ready for the PER-HKG, so surely with a re-jig of the fleet, like a 744 back on PVG and daily 744 NRT im sure we could do PER-JNB-CPT-PER.... a triangle route... and if it runs low on fuel there are plent of places to divert... Madagasca, Mauritius, Reunion and LEA ..... just a sugestion  
When is my next holiday?
 
User avatar
9MMPD
Posts: 240
Joined: Thu Oct 27, 2005 11:30 pm

RE: Australian Aviation Thread #56

Tue Nov 22, 2011 3:18 am

Quoting thegeek (Reply 58):
Went to A346 at one point I thought? Certainly you couldn't contemplate such a large aircraft more than 3 times a week. Maybe even 2/week. Would pick up a few who are now flying via SIN/KUL most likely though.

We still get the 346. SAA sends us a mix bag of 342, 343 and 346 during the week.

Most days SAA's A340s have a long time on the ground here in Perth. Couldn't they send it onto Melbourne as a tag on service instead of sitting on the ground in Perth for 12 hours?
 
Sydscott
Posts: 3513
Joined: Thu Oct 30, 2003 11:50 am

RE: Australian Aviation Thread #56

Tue Nov 22, 2011 3:27 am

Quoting alangirvan (Reply 63):
Who would be the ideal airline to come onto the route?

SQ or Air New Zealand. Both would create headaches but I don't see any other candidates.

Quoting 9MMPD (Reply 66):
Couldn't they send it onto Melbourne as a tag on service instead of sitting on the ground in Perth for 12 hours?

At the moment they don't have the incentive because all of their Eastern seaboard traffic is aboard the QF direct service. Once it ceases I'd say the Virgin codeshare will come back from PER and all of SAA traffic to the Eastern States will be 1 stop via there. In effect the route will remain a duopoly and I can't see that changing.
 
alangirvan
Posts: 522
Joined: Wed Nov 08, 2000 2:13 pm

RE: Australian Aviation Thread #56

Tue Nov 22, 2011 3:49 am

Of course, the airline I did not mention...Air Australia. Bit of creative thinking - they could look for some pre-loved A340-500s - Thai International or TAM or whoever.

A couple of A345s could operate SYD-SFO-SYD-JNB-SYD, four times weekly. This would kill two birds with one stone, though maybe that is not a good metaphor when you are discussing the airline business.

Some people think the econmics of the A345 are a bit tragic, but there would be no EROPS issues for the first few years. The best aircraft would be the A340-600IGW but I do not think Airbus went ahead and built the IGW version.
 
6thfreedom
Posts: 2641
Joined: Thu Sep 30, 2004 11:09 am

RE: Australian Aviation Thread #56

Tue Nov 22, 2011 7:26 am

Current VS schedules:


VS 601 LHR 20:30 JNB 08:35 +1 346 0 1234567 11:05 3 A 25 Mar 27 Oct
VS 602 JNB 20:30 LHR 06:50 +1 346 0 1234567 11:20 A 3 26 Mar 27 Oct

VS 201 SYD 14:25 LHR 05:25 +1 346 1 1234567 24:00 1 3 01 Apr 06 Oct
VS 200 LHR 22:30 SYD 06:35 +2 346 1 1234567 23:05 3 1 30 Mar 04 Oct

QF 64 JNB 18:15 SYD 14:05 +1 744 0 1234567 11:50 A 1 31 Mar 05 Oct
QF 63 SYD 10:00 JNB 16:15 744 0 1234567 14:15 1 A 01 Apr 06 Oct

Given 12 hr layover in JNB, as well as 8 hrs in SYD, could VS potentially operate a counter rotating service as follows:

LHR 20.30
JNB 8.35
JNB 10.35
SYD 06.00
SYD 07.35
HKG 15.10
HKG 16.40
LHR 22.30

LHR 22.30
SYD 06.35
SYD 10.00
JNB 16.15
JNB 19:50
LHR 06:10

The upside of this is that VS could sell LHR-SYD via HKG and JNB.

not sure what this would mean in terms of frames required.
anyone?
 
IndianicWorld
Posts: 3371
Joined: Mon Jun 04, 2001 11:32 am

RE: Australian Aviation Thread #56

Tue Nov 22, 2011 7:39 am

Quoting alangirvan (Reply 68):
A couple of A345s could operate SYD-SFO-SYD-JNB-SYD, four times weekly. This would kill two birds with one stone, though maybe that is not a good metaphor when you are discussing the airline business.

Some people think the econmics of the A345 are a bit tragic, but there would be no EROPS issues for the first few years. The best aircraft would be the A340-600IGW but I do not think Airbus went ahead and built the IGW version.

Righttttt..... Not exactly realistic.

Theres thinking outside the square and theres that kind of move  Smile
Quoting alangirvan (Reply 63):
It may be that MEL was just the wrong port for them - they should have added services from SYD or PER first, if those are the cities where most South Africans come to live.
SYD and PER already had service, so all you would be doing is going head to head with the SA-QF codeshare services. Not exactly a recipe for success. Frankly, JNB was just the wrong destination for VA with the aircraft they had.

When opening the route, they needed a point of difference, and given the route being unserved and with substantial catchment of MEL, including a fairly sizable South African population, it might work well in time, but the right aircraft and some time to let it build is required.

[Edited 2011-11-21 23:40:30]
 
Flyingsottsman
Posts: 800
Joined: Mon Oct 25, 2010 12:32 pm

RE: Australian Aviation Thread #56

Tue Nov 22, 2011 8:46 am

Finaly saw the A380 Friday night at MEL, very impressive aircraft, also saw the 787 being towed down towards Qantas maintenence while I was waiting for my flight to SYD.
I saw a few of Virgin Australia's ATR 72s I wounder will DJ will use them from MEL?
 
Flyingsottsman
Posts: 800
Joined: Mon Oct 25, 2010 12:32 pm

RE: Australian Aviation Thread #56

Tue Nov 22, 2011 9:00 am

Quoting IndianicWorld (Reply 47):
I'd love to see a carrier take on MEL-JNB again, but realistically its doubtful.

I would love to see them here aswell but I dont think we ever will, but I do wounder if SA could make a JNB-PER and maybe a tag on to MEL work?

Quoting tayser (Reply 19):
Im still yet to see which terminal Air Australia are going to be using in MEL...

getting cosy with Virgin in T3? or Tiger in T4? spare gates in T2?

I think they will use the T3 terminal where Rex is, T4 is I think to small to have 2 airlines there . I was in SYD on Sunday night and found it interesting that TT use the same terminal that JQ uses up there.
 
User avatar
RyanairGuru
Posts: 8374
Joined: Wed Nov 01, 2006 3:59 am

RE: Australian Aviation Thread #56

Tue Nov 22, 2011 9:23 am

Quoting Flyingsottsman (Reply 72):
I was in SYD on Sunday night and found it interesting that TT use the same terminal that JQ uses up there.

Well there's only 3, and given that one is international and the other is QF only I guess they didn't have much choice  
Worked Hard, Flew Right
 
ADDICT4QF
Posts: 44
Joined: Sun Feb 13, 2011 11:11 am

RE: Australian Aviation Thread #56

Tue Nov 22, 2011 10:09 am

This year QF has taken delivery of 13 B738s (VH-VZL-U and ZK-ZQD-H) and 3 A380s (VH-OQH, I, J) , according to my memory. Any ideas why they haven't retired an equal or anywhere close to equal amount of older aircraft, and what are they doing with all the surplus aircraft? Are they just parked around Australia? I would have thought they would get rid of them asap to save costs...
 
qf002
Posts: 3669
Joined: Tue Jul 05, 2011 11:14 am

RE: Australian Aviation Thread #56

Tue Nov 22, 2011 12:15 pm

Quoting ADDICT4QF (Reply 74):
Any ideas why they haven't retired an equal or anywhere close to equal amount of older aircraft, and what are they doing with all the surplus aircraft? Are they just parked around Australia? I would have thought they would get rid of them asap to save costs...

They have started to get rid of 737-400's as the fleet has grown, along with a number of 767's which are leaving the fleet.

There will be mass retirements of 747-400's over the next 2 years once the A380s are all delivered and the pressure of taking frames out for refits has been relieved. They seem to have been quite cautious with getting rid of their 744's -- I guess they have been right to with some of the A380 issues they've had.
 
thegeek
Posts: 1334
Joined: Mon Nov 26, 2007 7:20 am

RE: Australian Aviation Thread #56

Tue Nov 22, 2011 11:22 pm

Quoting 9MMPD (Reply 66):
Most days SAA's A340s have a long time on the ground here in Perth. Couldn't they send it onto Melbourne as a tag on service instead of sitting on the ground in Perth for 12 hours?

They could, but they couldn't pick up domestic pax. What extra pax would they get on the PER-JNB leg from this tag?

The only way that they should do this is if they combine it with a PER-CPT route, but those pax making that trip are already flying on the SA flight in general, so again, what incentive is there for SA to fly it?

On the other hand, heading MEL-JNB is pretty much QF territory, so there is some merit in this proposal. I still doubt it would pay though.
 
Solent
Posts: 10
Joined: Sun Oct 18, 2009 12:31 am

RE: Australian Aviation Thread #56

Tue Nov 22, 2011 11:50 pm

QF managements look like a bunch of twits with their twitter campaign. There seems to be significant damage to the QF brand because of Joyce's actions. This board of QF do not appear to have the answers for operating International routes. Why then is there no action by shareholders to change the board. The airline is shedding blood internationally according to Joyce ( but isn't cross subsidation worthwhile to have a successful company) and the board wants the staff, who must have little loyalty or respect for the board, to shed blood. Might it not be better and neccesary to change the leadership at QF. It may not now not be flying if it had gone to private equity.

Joyce was at Ansett and Aer Lingus prior to QF. Was he really successful in these roles or did he manage to say the right words to get on. Have worked with a number of those people, who are disastrous when given their head.
 
Airvan00
Posts: 236
Joined: Thu Oct 30, 2008 1:06 am

RE: Australian Aviation Thread #56

Wed Nov 23, 2011 12:36 am

Quoting Solent (Reply 77):
Why then is there no action by shareholders to change the board

Because more than 90% of the shareholders do not agree with you. (there is already a separate thread about this)
 
eaglefarm4
Posts: 447
Joined: Sun Jul 17, 2011 10:33 pm

RE: Australian Aviation Thread #56

Wed Nov 23, 2011 12:55 am

Qantaslink announces BNE-GLT with 717's from first quarter 2012

http://www.gladstoneobserver.com.au/...lying-roo-to-bring-jet-age-qantas/
tourismman
 
eaglefarm4
Posts: 447
Joined: Sun Jul 17, 2011 10:33 pm

RE: Australian Aviation Thread #56

Wed Nov 23, 2011 6:25 am

Alliance today re-routed it's BNE-Orange-Telfer weekly FIFO flight now operating via Essendon.Aircraft will return the same routing tomorrow.TEF-ESS-OAG-BNE.This will be a permanent weekly flight in both directions for Newcrest Mining.

A Fokker 70 operated this flight.VH-QQX.
tourismman
 
Ditzyboy
Posts: 299
Joined: Thu Feb 28, 2008 5:15 am

RE: Australian Aviation Thread #56

Wed Nov 23, 2011 9:37 am

I have come across the new configuration for the Qantas 4-class A380. While a total seat count of 484 has been mentioned by Qantas, this is the first time I have seen the break up detailed.

14P/64J/35W/371Y

There will be 30Y on the UD, behind W. Two of the J lavs (the ones after of the UD1 doors) will be positioned to the UD2 area at the rear of the J cabin. 9Y will be added to the main deck.

I am guessing galleys will be down-sized as a result of the new Economy product (smaller trays) and more bulk loaded food items. I perhaps see the galley unit after of M2L going, with this possibly giving enough room for three rows of ABC seats up to the door.

Rumour is also the 3-class A380s still due to arrive will be reconfigured to 4-class also. Anyone got any more information?
 
qf002
Posts: 3669
Joined: Tue Jul 05, 2011 11:14 am

RE: Australian Aviation Thread #56

Wed Nov 23, 2011 10:06 am

Quoting ditzyboy (Reply 81):
I have come across the new configuration for the Qantas 4-class A380. While a total seat count of 484 has been mentioned by Qantas, this is the first time I have seen the break up detailed.

14P/64J/35W/371Y

Hmm interesting... Any timeline on this? I imagine that they will want to get this out of the way before they are restricted with fleet numbers once they're down to just 9 744's.

Quoting ditzyboy (Reply 81):
Rumour is also the 3-class A380s still due to arrive will be reconfigured to 4-class also. Anyone got any more information?

Would make sense since they're only getting 2 of the birds that had been intended to be 3 class...
 
Ditzyboy
Posts: 299
Joined: Thu Feb 28, 2008 5:15 am

RE: Australian Aviation Thread #56

Wed Nov 23, 2011 10:45 am

Quoting qf002 (Reply 82):
Hmm interesting... Any timeline on this?

OQD is the first to be reconfigured, due out May 2012.
 
koruman
Posts: 2179
Joined: Mon Feb 06, 2006 9:08 pm

RE: Australian Aviation Thread #56

Wed Nov 23, 2011 12:40 pm

It's extraordinary that Qantas chooses to put fewer Premium Economy seats in an A380 than Air New Zealand has on a 777-200ER.

Interesting route planning and yield management.
 
Airvan00
Posts: 236
Joined: Thu Oct 30, 2008 1:06 am

RE: Australian Aviation Thread #56

Wed Nov 23, 2011 11:24 pm

Quoting koruman (Reply 84):
It's extraordinary that Qantas chooses to put fewer Premium Economy seats in an A380 than Air New Zealand has on a 777-200ER.

They have had three years experience with the current configuration so reducing the W by 5 must be a result of analysis of those figures.

Quoting ditzyboy (Reply 83):
OQD is the first to be reconfigured, due out May 2012.

I wonder if OQK will be in the new 4 class configuration (due to be delivered on Saturday). It seems pointless to deliver it in the old configuration, if it is only to be taken out of service to be reconfigured; unless they plan to stretch that out for 2 years and do it with the C check.
 
Airvan00
Posts: 236
Joined: Thu Oct 30, 2008 1:06 am

RE: Australian Aviation Thread #56

Wed Nov 23, 2011 11:44 pm

Just noticed that Qantas source says that the A380 has 40W, but the Qantas seat maps have 32W. So going for 35W is not that much different.
 
qf002
Posts: 3669
Joined: Tue Jul 05, 2011 11:14 am

RE: Australian Aviation Thread #56

Thu Nov 24, 2011 3:14 am

Quoting koruman (Reply 84):
It's extraordinary that Qantas chooses to put fewer Premium Economy seats in an A380 than Air New Zealand has on a 777-200ER.

Instead they chose the fill the same space on the plane with F and J seats, which make vastly more money than W seats...

The fact that they have reduced the 744ER W seat count as well suggests to me that they are trying to retain it as a premium product, with a significant price jump from Y.
 
koruman
Posts: 2179
Joined: Mon Feb 06, 2006 9:08 pm

RE: Australian Aviation Thread #56

Thu Nov 24, 2011 4:03 am

Quoting qf002 (Reply 87):
Instead they chose the fill the same space on the plane with F and J seats, which make vastly more money than W seats...

Are you sure about that?

They make more money per seat, but the experience of both Virgin Atlantic and Air New Zealand is that per square metre of cabin space they have a wider profit margin from Premium Economy than they do from lie-flat Business Class, although Qantas' figures may be skewed by the fact that a significant part of their Business Class inventory is not horizontal lie-flat and so has a much higher seating density.

Qantas tend to sell LHR-SYD Business Class for around 2,800 per seat to major corporations. While they sell Australia-UK Premium Economy for almost as high a fare level, but with much higher seat density.
 
ben175
Posts: 804
Joined: Wed Jul 02, 2008 12:44 pm

RE: Australian Aviation Thread #56

Thu Nov 24, 2011 4:18 am

PER has finally removed the out of place Finnair logo from the airline board and replaced it with CZ just out of interest.
 
Ditzyboy
Posts: 299
Joined: Thu Feb 28, 2008 5:15 am

RE: Australian Aviation Thread #56

Thu Nov 24, 2011 5:45 am

Quoting airvan00 (Reply 85):
I wonder if OQK will be in the new 4 class configuration (due to be delivered on Saturday).

OQK will be delivered in the current configuration. Workshops on new service flows are yet to take place. There is a considerable amount of galley reduction and lav repositioning. New exit crossovers and jumpseat locations also need regulator certification. These things take time, not to mention the internal structures of the yet to be delivered aircraft are likely to have been in place for longer than Qantas has settled on a proposed new configuration.
 
qf002
Posts: 3669
Joined: Tue Jul 05, 2011 11:14 am

RE: Australian Aviation Thread #56

Thu Nov 24, 2011 6:44 am

Quoting koruman (Reply 88):
Are you sure about that?

Yep. If W was as amazingly profitable and such a great business deal as you say then they would be filling these planes with W. They are afraid of over-supply, which will liquidate the fare premium over Y. This in itself would place a downward force on Y fares to a point where airlines simply aren't making any money in the back. In any case, QF is pretty much on par with NZ when you look at the number of W seats that are in the 744's and 772's.

Quoting ditzyboy (Reply 90):
OQK will be delivered in the current configuration

Any chance Nancy Bird might reenter service with the new configuration? I guess that depends on when she reenters service...
 
CXfirst
Posts: 3022
Joined: Tue Jan 30, 2007 8:13 pm

RE: Australian Aviation Thread #56

Thu Nov 24, 2011 7:38 am

Quoting qf002 (Reply 91):
Any chance Nancy Bird might reenter service with the new configuration? I guess that depends on when she reenters service...

On the topic of Nancy Bird, I haven't heard much lately about VH-OQA, what is its current state? How far is it from entering service (roughly)?

-CXfirst
 
ADDICT4QF
Posts: 44
Joined: Sun Feb 13, 2011 11:11 am

RE: Australian Aviation Thread #56

Thu Nov 24, 2011 7:45 am

Quoting ditzyboy (Reply 81):

I have come across the new configuration for the Qantas 4-class A380. While a total seat count of 484 has been mentioned by Qantas, this is the first time I have seen the break up detailed.

14P/64J/35W/371Y

There will be 30Y on the UD, behind W. Two of the J lavs (the ones after of the UD1 doors) will be positioned to the UD2 area at the rear of the J cabin. 9Y will be added to the main deck.



AusBT suggests otherwise. See article currently on their site.

[Edited 2011-11-24 00:41:16]

Qantas spokeswoman confirmed to Australian Business Traveller that while the swanky first class cabin remains at the point end, an extra 39 seats will be squeezed into the economy cabin situated behind this, boosting the 'cheap seats' count from 332 to 371.

On the A380's upper deck, eight seats will be dropped from business class (going from 72 down to 64) while the rear premium economy section will gain three seats (up from the current 32).


[Edited 2011-11-24 00:42:53]
 
CXfirst
Posts: 3022
Joined: Tue Jan 30, 2007 8:13 pm

RE: Australian Aviation Thread #56

Thu Nov 24, 2011 9:07 am

Quoting ADDICT4QF (Reply 93):
an extra 39 seats will be squeezed into the economy cabin

That's a significant amount, 4 rows. Are they decreasing seat pitch at all or have they just found this space from reducing galley size, etc.?

-CXfirst
 
koruman
Posts: 2179
Joined: Mon Feb 06, 2006 9:08 pm

RE: Australian Aviation Thread #56

Thu Nov 24, 2011 11:07 am

Most of you are probably familiar with this week's Qantas Luxury hashtag debacle, where the airline offered a pair of pyjamas for the best Twitter comments about "Qantas Luxury" which invited an avalanche of tweets such as:

"Qantas luxury is arriving at the airport and finding that your flight is operating"

or

"Qantas luxury is finding that your luggage arrives on the same flight that you do".

Anyway, for those of you who watch the "Hitler Downfall" videos, there is a great Qantas Luxury one on youtube.....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QTCwPlWzZnQ
 
qf002
Posts: 3669
Joined: Tue Jul 05, 2011 11:14 am

RE: Australian Aviation Thread #56

Thu Nov 24, 2011 11:10 am

Quoting CXfirst (Reply 92):
How far is it from entering service (roughly)?

Q1 2012 seems to be the popular time frame for reentry into service...

Quoting ADDICT4QF (Reply 93):
Qantas spokeswoman confirmed to Australian Business Traveller that while the swanky first class cabin remains at the point end, an extra 39 seats will be squeezed into the economy cabin situated behind this, boosting the 'cheap seats' count from 332 to 371.

On the A380's upper deck, eight seats will be dropped from business class (going from 72 down to 64) while the rear premium economy section will gain three seats (up from the current 32).

AusBT makes it sound like that's coming from the QF spokesperson but it's really a paraphrase with an unfortunate choice of wording. They don't literally mean that 39 seats are being added to the front Y cabin, rather that 39 seats are being added to Y overall. It's not possible to add 39 seats downstairs, and it's also madness to think that 8 J seats will be replaced with 3 W seats...
 
koruman
Posts: 2179
Joined: Mon Feb 06, 2006 9:08 pm

RE: Australian Aviation Thread #56

Thu Nov 24, 2011 11:16 am

Quoting koruman (Reply 84):
It's extraordinary that Qantas chooses to put fewer Premium Economy seats in an A380 than Air New Zealand has on a 777-200ER.

Interesting route planning and yield management.
Quoting qf002 (Reply 87):
Instead they chose the fill the same space on the plane with F and J seats, which make vastly more money than W seats...

The fact that they have reduced the 744ER W seat count as well suggests to me that they are trying to retain it as a premium product, with a significant price jump from Y.
Quoting qf002 (Reply 91):
In any case, QF is pretty much on par with NZ when you look at the number of W seats that are in the 744's and 772's.

Qantas A380: 7% - 35 Premium Economy seats out of 484 (7%)
Air NZ 77W: 25% - 44 Premium Economy out of 332, plus 40 lie-flat Economy Skycouch seats (13% plus 12%).
Air NZ 77E: 12% - 36 Premium Economy out of 304 seats (12%)

It's a major difference in direction. One of the two airlines is wrong. And interestingly, the management of both like to talk down their long-haul division's performance.
 
qf002
Posts: 3669
Joined: Tue Jul 05, 2011 11:14 am

RE: Australian Aviation Thread #56

Thu Nov 24, 2011 12:11 pm

Quoting koruman (Reply 97):

Fair enough, and I do accept your point. I don't know why one has to be wrong though, surely they can just be different? It's not really an apple-apple comparison, since QF is a far more premium/high end centred airline compared with NZ...

Anyway, like I said, QF obviously don't find W to be a massively profitable class, and in my view management probably feel that they initially overdid it (for example bringing the seat count down when reconfiguring the 744ER's)...
 
koruman
Posts: 2179
Joined: Mon Feb 06, 2006 9:08 pm

RE: Australian Aviation Thread #56

Thu Nov 24, 2011 12:21 pm

Quoting qf002 (Reply 98):
It's not really an apple-apple comparison, since QF is a far more premium/high end centred airline compared with NZ...

Was that meant tongue-in-cheek, or do you really believe that?

I am the first to accept that the new NZ 77W Economy is too high density.

But in terms of the flagship products on the flagship aircraft, Air New Zealand's Premium Economy and Business Class products are a massive distance ahead of Qantas.

Premium Economy - the pictures do the talking.......




Business Class is even more strongly in NZ's favour, with proper lie-flat beds which all have aisle access.

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos