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irshava
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How Is The 787 A "Game Changing" Airplane?

Sat Nov 19, 2011 9:31 pm

Hi all,

After reading the November issue of Airlinerworld - one Boeing Rep said that the 787 is a game changing airliner....

How so? Does the fact that its a new plane with a new design and with new instruments make it "game changing"?

Was any other Boeing plane a "game changer"?

Side question - What do airlines prefer at the moment? The 787 or the A350?

[Edited 2011-11-19 13:32:05]
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futureualpilot
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RE: How Is The 787 A "Game Changing" Airplane?

Sat Nov 19, 2011 9:44 pm

The use of composite materials, allowing for lower fuel burn when compared to current airliners of similar size on similar routes, pressurizing the cabin to a lower altitude with more humidity for greater passenger comfort, larger windows that don't have traditional window shades, but instead dim and become opaque when you don't want to look out of them, plus a host of other things I am sure I am forgetting.
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UAL727NE
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RE: How Is The 787 A "Game Changing" Airplane?

Sat Nov 19, 2011 9:44 pm

I think part of it being a game changer is the new window dimmers and more cabin humidity among other new things used. I personally believe its a game changer with all the new technology incorporated with that beautiful airplane.

[Edited 2011-11-19 13:48:51]
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Stitch
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RE: How Is The 787 A "Game Changing" Airplane?

Sat Nov 19, 2011 9:57 pm

Quoting irshava (Thread starter):
Was any other Boeing plane a "game changer"?

I'd argue the 707 and 747 were. The 707 opened intercontinental jet travel and the 747 lowered trip costs to the point it allowed more people to take advantage of jet travel.



Quoting irshava (Thread starter):
Side question - What do airlines prefer at the moment? The 787 or the A350?

In terms of raw sales, the 787. But considering how many sales the A350 has, airlines very much prefer it, as well.  
 
irshava
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RE: How Is The 787 A "Game Changing" Airplane?

Sat Nov 19, 2011 10:14 pm

Quoting Stitch (Reply 3):

But analysts say it won't turn in a profit for Boeing - 1000 units to break even...
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Stitch
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RE: How Is The 787 A "Game Changing" Airplane?

Sat Nov 19, 2011 10:20 pm

Quoting irshava (Reply 4):
But analysts say it won't turn in a profit for Boeing - 1000 units to break even...


When were analysts ever right about anything?  

First off, they're guessing because Boeing does a magnificent job of hiding how much they spent on these programs. So the figures they are plugging into their equations likely have not insignificant margins of error favoring too high a spend versus too low since they are likely adding in R&D costs that are not unique to the 787 program.

Second, Boeing will very likely sell more than 1000 of them, however. Also, those planes will generate tens, if not scores, of millions of ancillary revenues over their lifetimes at very high profit margins. Analysts never seem to take those figures into account and that can be worth tens of percent of the value of the airframe.
 
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RE: How Is The 787 A "Game Changing" Airplane?

Sat Nov 19, 2011 10:21 pm

Quoting irshava (Reply 4):
But analysts say it won't turn in a profit for Boeing - 1000 units to break even...

I heard 1200, nonetheless they have already sold just short of 800. Assuming they can get production ramped up I'm sure the program will achieve profitability at some point.
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DeltaMD90
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RE: How Is The 787 A "Game Changing" Airplane?

Sat Nov 19, 2011 10:29 pm

If the A350 came out first, I'd say that would be the game changer. The 787 be can dramatically different and innovative (game-changer) even if it didn't make a profit IMO
 
tayser
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RE: How Is The 787 A "Game Changing" Airplane?

Sat Nov 19, 2011 10:33 pm

Quoting futureualpilot (Reply 1):

The use of composite materials, allowing for lower fuel burn when compared to current airliners of similar size on similar routes, pressurizing the cabin to a lower altitude with more humidity for greater passenger comfort, larger windows that don't have traditional window shades, but instead dim and become opaque when you don't want to look out of them, plus a host of other things I am sure I am forgetting.

that's all nice and what not but is only half of it, although still important.

The 788 is essentially a ~220-250 seater plane, depending on final seating config, which can fly routes from circa 1-2 million people cities which dont have hubs/enormous feeds to fill larger planes to other cities over very long ranges.

It's much longer range than a 332 which is the comparable (seating-wise) aircraft - which will appeal to Asian, Australian, New Zealand and South American cities - primarily because Europe and North America can be, and is, linked with other aircraft which have the range and economics of doing so.

MEL-SFO/YVR/DFW/IAH/DXB
BNE-LAX/SFO/DXB/AUH
CTU-BCN/LAX/SFO/FCO/YVR
HAK-LAX/SFO/LHR/CDG/JNB
AKL-IAH/DEN/MEX/DEL/BOM
LIM-SYD/AKL/IAD/LHR/CDG
SCL-MAD/BCN/MXP/FRA

etc etc - not necessarily hub to hub routes - more like Focus City to Focus city or spoke. Many of those routes can be done with existing aircraft - however given the 787 will be smaller it makes a heck of a lot more long range routes appealing as, currently, an airline would have to use a larger aircraft. Also it makes it appealing to swap 787s in due to the lower operating costs (generalised, but anyhow, you get the idea).

[Edited 2011-11-19 14:36:26]
 
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RE: How Is The 787 A "Game Changing" Airplane?

Sat Nov 19, 2011 10:37 pm

Quoting futureualpilot (Reply 1):
The use of composite materials, allowing for lower fuel burn when compared to current airliners of similar size on similar routes

IMO, it's not just the use of composites. Composites have been used in commercial aircraft for 30+ years. The 787 is revolutionary in both the extent of composites and method of application. The monocoque carbon fiber fuselage is probably the biggest change in the way aircraft are manufactured in 60 years.

The other game-changing capability is the combination of range, payload, and efficiency that will allow a host of new thin routes to be opened by airlines. We will likely look back in 20-30 years and observe a step-change in the number of direct city pairs that will be opened by the 787, not unlike the fragmentation that occurred when the 767 first entered fleets.
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RE: How Is The 787 A "Game Changing" Airplane?

Sat Nov 19, 2011 10:50 pm

Quoting tayser (Reply 8):
It's much longer range than a 332 which is the comparable (seating-wise) aircraft - which will appeal to Asian, Australian, New Zealand and South American cities - primarily because Europe and North America can be, and is, linked with other aircraft which have the range and economics of doing so.

All true, but I think many are overstating this. I've heard suggestions that the 787 will make routes like MCI-TYO possible. That's nonsense.
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wolbo
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RE: How Is The 787 A "Game Changing" Airplane?

Sat Nov 19, 2011 11:54 pm

The words 'game changer' and 'revolutionary' are way overused and in most instances amount to little more than typical American marketing hyperbole.

Higher humidity and larger windows with electric dimmers are nice advances which I'm sure will be welcomed by passengers but in what possible way are they 'game changers'?

I can see two ways for the 787 to potentially become game changing. The first is if the new production method allows them to significantly speed up the production process compared to traditional methods to such a degree that it becomes the new standard and a prerequisite for successful future models. The second is if the composite fuselage decreases the maintenance cost to such an extent that airliners will require all future passenger jets to have an all composite fuselage.

Quoting Stitch (Reply 3):
I'd argue the 707 and 747 were. The 707 opened intercontinental jet travel and the 747 lowered trip costs to the point it allowed more people to take advantage of jet travel.

Those are valid examples of game changers. I don't yet see the 787 having a similar game changing impact.
 
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RE: How Is The 787 A "Game Changing" Airplane?

Sun Nov 20, 2011 12:02 am

The big battle here some years ago was hub to hub (380) versus P2P (787, 350). Obviously neither of the two types of operations are going to disappear. But to my mind the more intrigueing are the possibilities for most 2nd tier cities to increasingly have good 1 stop service anywhere in the world. Seattle does not have all that many non-stops to Europe and Asia, but there are enough to get most anyplace in the world with one stop. The 787,350 will greatly improve that kind of service. Maybe Portland and Spokane can become practical international airports after all. I am sure those two airports and the populations would love to have 3-5 (more) Europe-Asia nonstops.
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AngMoh
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RE: How Is The 787 A "Game Changing" Airplane?

Sun Nov 20, 2011 12:20 am

Quoting frmrCapCadet (Reply 12):
The big battle here some years ago was hub to hub (380) versus P2P (787, 350).

And both arguments are now proven to be invalid. The A380s don't fly with loads of 800+ from hub to hub and the 787 is not going to fly criss-cross across the globe connecting every minor city to every other minor city non stop. In reality the A380 just ups the J-class standards on major routes and the 787 adds a few more spokes to existing hubs (e.g. NRT-BOS, IAH-AKL). And the seats in Y are still as cramped as on any other plane. So from a passenger perspective, neither is a "game changer".

The 787 has to be the potential to be a true "game changer" in terms of manufacturing technology, with the potential to bring down costs for Boeing in a significant way. Today, that is far from being proven and we need to wait possibly 5+ years to see if the 787 is a bullseye or a dud when we see if the potential benefits have been realized or not.
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RE: How Is The 787 A "Game Changing" Airplane?

Sun Nov 20, 2011 12:37 am

Quoting wolbo (Reply 11):
The words 'game changer' and 'revolutionary' are way overused and in most instances amount to little more than typical American marketing hyperbole.

Not sure I agree with you. Airliners have a long shelf life, and the "next big thing" tends to be light years ahead of what it replaces - look at what the 777 did to 340 sales or the 319/320 did to 737 Classic sales, for instance. I'd argue that in the past 25 years, the list of airplanes that were not "game changers" is pretty short:

- 717
- 733/4/5
- 332/3
- 345/6
- ERJ
- CR7/9
- SF3

I think I could make a decent argument that just about everything else is a game changer in its own way.
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frmrCapCadet
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RE: How Is The 787 A "Game Changing" Airplane?

Sun Nov 20, 2011 12:40 am

Quoting AngMoh (Reply 13):
And both arguments are now proven to be invalid. The A380s don't fly with loads of 800+ from hub to hub and the 787 is not going to fly criss-cross across the globe connecting every minor city to every other minor city non stop

Straw man argument. Hub to hub in fact is a valid business plan for any number of particular city pairs. Hub does not mean 800 passengers per plane. And P2P does not mean connecting every 2nd tier city with every other 2nd tier city. It only take a handful of long range international flights to make a 2nd tier city a convenient international airport. Both of these business models work very well the the 1 stop model.
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flood
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RE: How Is The 787 A "Game Changing" Airplane?

Sun Nov 20, 2011 12:44 am

Quoting wolbo (Reply 11):
Higher humidity and larger windows with electric dimmers are nice advances which I'm sure will be welcomed by passengers but in what possible way are they 'game changers'?

They're not. Not anymore, anyway, when the A380 already offers a higher cabin pressure than the 787, a quieter cabin, and humidity levels of up to 25%, according to LH. Larger, electronically dimmable windows are certainly a benefit, but I wouldn't go so far as to say they contribute to the game-changing qualities offered by the 787. Neither does allowing for some tacky rainbow-lighting  

On the other hand, the 787's bleedless design should also improve cabin air quality. The game-changing aspect, however, in my opinion primarily lies in its composite barrel and this:

Quoting frmrCapCadet (Reply 12):
the possibilities for most 2nd tier cities to increasingly have good 1 stop service anywhere in the world

Personally, I would consider both the A380 and the 787 game-changing aircraft, albeit each in their own, respective roles, and would also agree with:

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 7):
If the A350 came out first, I'd say that would be the game changer.
Quoting frmrCapCadet (Reply 12):
Maybe Portland and Spokane can become practical international airports after all. I am sure those two airports and the populations would love to have 3-5 (more) Europe-Asia nonstops.

We certainly would  
 
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RE: How Is The 787 A "Game Changing" Airplane?

Sun Nov 20, 2011 12:47 am

Quoting wolbo (Reply 11):
The words 'game changer' and 'revolutionary' are way overused and in most instances amount to little more than typical American marketing hyperbole.

I agree with that they are overused. Sad to disagree that is is American hyperbole, seems universal to me.

If you want to apply game changing then I think it should not be applied to planes but technology or philosophy. Because of that I would classify the latest game changes as:

- Jet engine
- Intercontinental range wide body
- LCC

While 707 and 747 can be considered as forerunners for the first two I don't think it is the proper way of describing it.
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RE: How Is The 787 A "Game Changing" Airplane?

Sun Nov 20, 2011 1:19 am

The 787 is already a game changer...

Its large number of sales with the composite technology and the rest forced Airbus to revise the first A350 into the A350-XWB with CFRP panels etc..

It changed the game
 
flood
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RE: How Is The 787 A "Game Changing" Airplane?

Sun Nov 20, 2011 1:36 am

Quoting pygmalion (Reply 18):

It changed the game

In that sense, compsites aside, so did the NEO   
 
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RE: How Is The 787 A "Game Changing" Airplane?

Sun Nov 20, 2011 1:47 am

Quoting Stitch (Reply 3):
I'd argue the 707 and 747 were. The 707 opened intercontinental jet travel and the 747 lowered trip costs to the point it allowed more people to take advantage of jet travel.

In addition to these I'd add the 767 as well with regards to trans-Atlantic travel
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RE: How Is The 787 A "Game Changing" Airplane?

Sun Nov 20, 2011 2:12 am

I went onboard N787BA in AKL the other day. I don't buy the "Game changer" argument entirely. It is a marvelous aircraft with lots of excellent innovations, but it will still be only as good as what the airlines choose to spec it inside, and that not the aircraft will make routes profitable. It can be in 2-4-2,3-3-3 or 3-4-3 configuration. I think it is hard to argue that a high density interior will have anything "Game changing" about it at all.

Really it is just an updated 767 using modern materials - that aircraft was far more of a game changer of the industry than the 787 will be. the 77W is the same for long range, large twins. It took the 4 holers and made them obsolete.
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AngMoh
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RE: How Is The 787 A "Game Changing" Airplane?

Sun Nov 20, 2011 3:19 am

Quoting aerorobnz (Reply 21):
Really it is just an updated 767 using modern materials - that aircraft was far more of a game changer of the industry than the 787 will be. the 77W is the same for long range, large twins. It took the 4 holers and made them obsolete.

In that case the 77E is the game changer: it made the A340 as well as a substantial part of the 744 fleet obsolete.... The 77W came later and and wiped out what was left of the 744 fleet...

Quoting cmf (Reply 17):
If you want to apply game changing then I think it should not be applied to planes but technology or philosophy. Because of that I would classify the latest game changes as:

- Jet engine
- Intercontinental range wide body
- LCC


   To me the last real gamechanger was RyanAir and not a piece of hardware.... (changed the game not necessarily for the better )   
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RE: How Is The 787 A "Game Changing" Airplane?

Sun Nov 20, 2011 3:45 am

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 10):
I've heard suggestions that the 787 will make routes like MCI-TYO possible. That's nonsense.

Uhhh. If you mean Kansas City to Tokyo?...That's not even 6000 NM.
 
CXfirst
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RE: How Is The 787 A "Game Changing" Airplane?

Sun Nov 20, 2011 4:45 am

Quoting my235 (Reply 23):
Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 10):I've heard suggestions that the 787 will make routes like MCI-TYO possible. That's nonsense.
Uhhh. If you mean Kansas City to Tokyo?...That's not even 6000 NM.

I think he was not talking range, but that the 787 is said to be such as point to point aircraft that an airline would start routes as small as MCI-Tokyo, but that's simply not going to happen. MCI passengers will still be routed through a larger hub.

-CXfirst
 
liftsifter
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RE: How Is The 787 A "Game Changing" Airplane?

Sun Nov 20, 2011 4:45 am

The 787 is in some ways a game changer and others just nice. Sure the increased cabin humidity and larger windows are nice, but that doesn't really make airlines buy the plane. What does is this aircrafts incredible fuel economy, which is the selling point. No true game changing here like the size of the 747 (at the time) or the 707 which opened up air travel to everyone.

I personally am more eager to see the A350. From a passengers perspective, it is better than flying a 9-abreast 787, because it was designed for 9 abreast. The 787 will be ruined once it is pulled up to 9-abreast.
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Acheron
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RE: How Is The 787 A "Game Changing" Airplane?

Sun Nov 20, 2011 5:14 am

It really isn't. Most people just bought into the Boeing kool-aid with that one.

In the end of the day, its just an evolution regarding plane manufacturing and the implementation of a few new technologies onboard, some of which have existed before in other areas.

The actual "game changer" will happen when planes stop using fosil fuels or stop being "tubes with wings" or going supersonic becomes financially sound(no pun intended).
 
ajhYXE
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RE: How Is The 787 A "Game Changing" Airplane?

Sun Nov 20, 2011 6:26 am

This question really depends on one's own opinion. There is no precise definition of "game changer" which leaves a lot of for interpretation. Personally I believe that yes it is a game changer. It is the most radically different aircraft since the 747. Amongst the general public, I believe that while it will be applauded for its new features many will see it as "just another tube".
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Glareskin
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RE: How Is The 787 A "Game Changing" Airplane?

Sun Nov 20, 2011 8:12 am

Judging from the incredible A330 sales since 787 launch it is not a major game changer. I know that they are purchased as gap filler but most airlines do not consider to discontinue when the 787 is delivered.

Game changer? In technology yes: full carbon fuselage, cabin pressure, dimming windows. For airlines in operation: hardly. A bit more range, a bit less fuel. IMO not enough to call it that, but I don't mind if Boeing is using it for marketing purposes.

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 14):
in the past 25 years, the list of airplanes that were not "game changers" is pretty short:

- 717
- 733/4/5
- 332/3
- 345/6
- ERJ
- CR7/9
- SF3

I'dhaveto argue here. The 345 was the first ULH aircraft available, allowing SIN - EWR and comparable routes. It became obsolete when Boeing years later launched the 772LR that could do the same job with less fuel. If you put the 330 in you list I wonder why the 767 is not. A300 was the first 2 engine WB as far as I know,
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chiad
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RE: How Is The 787 A "Game Changing" Airplane?

Sun Nov 20, 2011 8:54 am

Quoting pygmalion (Reply 18):
Its large number of sales with the composite technology and the rest forced Airbus to revise the first A350 into the A350-XWB with CFRP panels etc..
Quoting flood (Reply 19):
In that sense, compsites aside, so did the NEO

I totally agree.
And the raw sales numbers reflect the cost of acquiring the aircraft.
The NEO, with orders just shy of 1300 within 1 year of launch, forced the MAX - seating: 180
The B787, with orders around 800 within 7 years of launch, forced the A350. - seating 210 - 350
The A380, with orders around 240 withing 11 years of launch, forced the B748 - seating 500

In my eyes the B787, and A350, is nothing but a development in increased cost-saving, comfort and "green-wise". This is someting I would expect from any new invention that superseed something else.
 
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RE: How Is The 787 A "Game Changing" Airplane?

Sun Nov 20, 2011 9:07 am

Quoting Chiad (Reply 29):

The Dreamliner is as "Game changing" as you will get given the current cost of product development and the market duopoly that both A and B enjoy. For some folks game changer will mean something that is totally and radically different from what we have seen here and surely they are entitled to that opinion however neither A nor B are likely to work on anything of that nature for the risk that is associated with such an en devour. Having sold close to 800 jets prior to launch , was a milestone for a widebody and is not only a spectacular achievement which is very rare in its market segment. Instead of going for a Game changine Mach 2.0 Hypothetical passenger liner that NO ONE wanted, boeing took a huge radical risk in materials and manufacturing and offered what the market was looking for in a recession economy. KUDOS to them. And having sold close to 70% of the airframes required for profit that is again unprecedented iirc ..They should easily be into four digits as production ramps up and with time slots become available and the economy turns around.
 
flood
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RE: How Is The 787 A "Game Changing" Airplane?

Sun Nov 20, 2011 9:53 am

Quoting bringiton (Reply 30):
The Dreamliner is as "Game changing" as you will get given the current cost of product development

I don't quite follow... but if you consider seriously blowing the budget as "game changing", sure  
Quoting bringiton (Reply 30):
Having sold close to 800 jets prior to launch

Prior to EIS, perhaps, but certainly not prior to program launch.

Quoting bringiton (Reply 30):
And having sold close to 70% of the airframes required for profit that is again unprecedented iirc

Unprecedented, yes. These 70% represent roughly eight hundred aircraft - which is hadly game-changing and nothing to brag about. Maybe it's just me, but I tend to associate "game changing" with the positive, rather than negative.
 
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RE: How Is The 787 A "Game Changing" Airplane?

Sun Nov 20, 2011 10:03 am

Quoting irshava (Thread starter):
How so? Does the fact that its a new plane with a new design and with new instruments make it "game changing"?

No. I think what makes it "game changing" is that it is the first majority composite airliner.

(Now, before anyone has a go at me for inconsistency (see the A350-1000 thread) I do believe that if Airbus decided to put Trent XWBs and new A350-style wings on a reduced weight A330 body it could compete against an 8-across 787).

Quoting irshava (Thread starter):
Was any other Boeing plane a "game changer"?

I think lots of airframes qualify as "game changers":

747 - the first widebody that made flying affordable for the masses.
A300 - the first widebody twinjet.
767 - the jet that pioneered ETOPS.
777 - the first long range twinjet, all but eliminating the need for mid-size quads.

[Edited 2011-11-20 02:13:48]
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sweair
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RE: How Is The 787 A "Game Changing" Airplane?

Sun Nov 20, 2011 10:12 am

Imo the composite barrel
The bleedless architecture/more electric
It will enable the BWB in the future

The 707 was the real game changer and less so the 747.

BWB will be the ultimate freighter but not a passenger AC..
 
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Aquila3
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RE: How Is The 787 A "Game Changing" Airplane?

Sun Nov 20, 2011 10:35 am

It is , out of any doubt. It brought delivery delays to a new era.
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RE: How Is The 787 A "Game Changing" Airplane?

Sun Nov 20, 2011 11:51 am

Quoting irshava (Thread starter):

How so?

IMHO It is not, it does not change the industry at all. It will not change the way airlines make money and do business, they still will need to sell seats and cargo.

Quoting futureualpilot (Reply 1):
use of composite materials

Composites have been used in making aircraft since basically day 1.

Quoting UAL727NE (Reply 2):
more cabin humidity

Actually it is the same cabin humidity that is available on other aircraft today.

Quoting Stitch (Reply 5):

When were analysts ever right about anything?

Heidi has been proven right a number of times with her early calls on various delays.

Quoting Stitch (Reply 5):
millions of ancillary revenues over their lifetimes at very high profit margins.

If you believe the Boeing blurb, it will have the lowest maintenance costs, so that does not gel with that statement. Cannot have it both ways.

Quoting dfwrevolution (Reply 9):
The 787 is revolutionary in both the extent of composites and method of application.

It has less composites than an A380, and the method of application of them is not that revolutionary, the technology for making the fuselages was actually developed for making sails.

“The Boeing executives found what they were looking for in the oddest of places: a sail making company. North Sails Group LLC, one of the premier designers of lightweight composite sails for racing boats, had developed a machine that applies composite strips to a spinning barrel using multiple robotic tape-laying heads.”
From www.sail-world.com/index.cfm?Nid=17059

Quoting dfwrevolution (Reply 9):
The monocoque carbon fiber fuselage is probably the biggest change in the way aircraft are manufactured in 60 years.

Except that the early aircraft were exactly that, monocoque and semi-monocoque composite airframes and wings, we then went to metal construction, and now back to composite again.

Quoting wolbo (Reply 11):
The words 'game changer' and 'revolutionary' are way overused and in most instances amount to little more than typical American marketing hyperbole.

I would have to agree, IMHO it comes from those MBA graduates that need to have a catchy way of detracting people away from sensible discussions.

Quoting AngMoh (Reply 13):
A380s don't fly with loads of 800+ from hub to hub

Was not supposed to do that, what they were selling was an airframe that had 35% more capacity than a 744, with the same operating costs.

Quoting aerorobnz (Reply 21):
it is just an updated 767 using modern materials

Not only modern materials, modern aerodynamic design, and modern systems. It is however IMHO a modern 767.

Quoting CXB77L (Reply 32):
A300 - the first widebody twinjet.
767 - the jet that pioneered ETOPS.

The A300 was flying beyond 60 minutes diversion distance from alternates trans-Atlantic before the ETOPS rules were even written. The 767 was the first aircraft to be ETOPS certified, however it was not the first commercial twin airliner to do ETOPS style flights.

Quoting CXB77L (Reply 32):
777 - the first long range twinjet, all but eliminating the need for mid-size quads.

Didn’t the A330 fly before the 777 ?
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RE: How Is The 787 A "Game Changing" Airplane?

Sun Nov 20, 2011 11:52 am

It's just a pimped up and steroided 767. A metal tube with 2 wings, 2 engines, few more leccy bits and a composite fuselage. The vast majority of them will be plouging the same lonely furrows in the same old airways as it's predecessors did. Sure, it can go a bit longer, but then again so could the A332 compared to the 767.

It's only game changing when hyped by marketing people.
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RE: How Is The 787 A "Game Changing" Airplane?

Sun Nov 20, 2011 12:15 pm

Quoting zeke (Reply 35):
Didn’t the A330 fly before the 777 ?

Yes, it did, but neither the original A330 nor the original 777s were designed for long range missions. When I said that I was referring specifically to the 777-200ER, which had more range than a 744 and an A343 but with half the engines.
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RE: How Is The 787 A "Game Changing" Airplane?

Sun Nov 20, 2011 12:18 pm

Quoting B777LRF (Reply 36):
It's ...A metal tube..

Actually, no, its not.

yeo
 
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RE: How Is The 787 A "Game Changing" Airplane?

Sun Nov 20, 2011 12:20 pm

Quoting irshava (Thread starter):
Does the fact that its a new plane with a new design and with new instruments make it "game changing"?

No. You are just taking a marketing slogan too literally.

Quoting futureualpilot (Reply 1):
pressurizing the cabin to a lower altitude with more humidity for greater passenger comfort, larger windows that don't have traditional window shades, but instead dim and become opaque when you don't want to look out of them
Quoting UAL727NE (Reply 2):
part of it being a game changer is the new window dimmers and more cabin humidity among other new things used.

All of which are a niche and on the great scale basically irrlevant things which are probably meant to increase passenger comfort. I am afraid that in the end they will be marginalized by beancounters when airlines cram these things with as many seats abreast as (in)humanely possible and turn them into modern era slave ships the same way EK, AF and others have done with their 10-abreast 777s.
And that's not unique just for 787, I am convinced all those fancy lounges, bars etc. will be removed from A380s the very moment they lose their appeal as being a novelty people would want to try. Just compare pictures of 747 cabins from the 1970s and today.
I have to yet find one REAL benefit of these dimmable windows over old school shades. (and let's not even think about how reliable these things will be when the aircraft is 10, 12, 15 years old).

Quoting CXB77L (Reply 32):
I think lots of airframes qualify as "game changers":

Imho, just three: 707, 747 and Concorde. The rest is just an evolution of thing, not necessarily revolution.
 
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RE: How Is The 787 A "Game Changing" Airplane?

Sun Nov 20, 2011 12:30 pm

Quoting irshava (Thread starter):
Was any other Boeing plane a "game changer"?

It is a marketing stunt... The improvements in the 787 are not as remarkable as the introduction of the Boeing 747 was when it came or the introduction of jetliners like the 707 or even the Caravelle. But Boeing is very good at marketing its products.
747-400/747-200/L1011/DC-10/DC-9/DC-8/MD-80/MD90/A340/A330/A300/A310/A321/A320/A319/767/757/737/727/HS-121/CV990/CV440/S
 
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RE: How Is The 787 A "Game Changing" Airplane?

Sun Nov 20, 2011 12:34 pm

Quoting zeke (Reply 35):
If you believe the Boeing blurb, it will have the lowest maintenance costs, so that does not gel with that statement. Cannot have it both ways.

Ancillaries are more than just spare parts.
 
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RE: How Is The 787 A "Game Changing" Airplane?

Sun Nov 20, 2011 12:38 pm

Ask the City of Boston whether the 787 is a 'game-changer.'

It doesn't get nonstop service to Japan without JAL and the Dreamliner.
 
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RE: How Is The 787 A "Game Changing" Airplane?

Sun Nov 20, 2011 12:58 pm

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 10):
All true, but I think many are overstating this.

   So true. It is just the next step in civilian aircraft design in this segment of the market.

Quoting wolbo (Reply 11):
The words 'game changer' and 'revolutionary' are way overused and in most instances amount to little more than typical American marketing hyperbole.

   The game is not being changed at all. It is made nicer and probably a bit more versatile in routes which can be flown. But also that is evolution from the A300, B767/A310, A330 and now B787. Mostly engine efficiency and aerodynamics (which you would expect from a 20 year younger design) are causing this. Nothing special at all.

Quoting wolbo (Reply 11):
Higher humidity and larger windows with electric dimmers are nice advances which I'm sure will be welcomed by passengers but in what possible way are they 'game changers'?

They are not. And higher humidity is also to be found on i.e. the A380, just as 5,000 lbs/inch hydraulics.

Quoting wolbo (Reply 11):
The second is if the composite fuselage decreases the maintenance cost to such an extent that airliners will require all future passenger jets to have an all composite fuselage.

And the jury is still out on that one, though CFRP fuselages could very well materialise into the new standard.

Quoting wolbo (Reply 11):

Quoting Stitch (Reply 3):
I'd argue the 707 and 747 were. The 707 opened intercontinental jet travel and the 747 lowered trip costs to the point it allowed more people to take advantage of jet travel.

Those are valid examples of game changers. I don't yet see the 787 having a similar game changing impact.

   Agreed. Those were real game changers. To a (much) lesser extend the A300 was the first wide-body twin. That is now the standard in wide-body design.

Quoting flood (Reply 16):
They're not. Not anymore, anyway, when the A380 already offers a higher cabin pressure than the 787, a quieter cabin, and humidity levels of up to 25%, according to LH. Larger

   So true, so true.  .

Quoting flood (Reply 16):

Personally, I would consider both the A380 and the 787 game-changing aircraft, albeit each in their own, respective roles, and would also agree with:

  

Quoting liftsifter (Reply 25):
What does is this aircraft's incredible fuel economy, which is the selling point. No true game changing here like the size of the 747 (at the time) or the 707 which opened up air travel to everyone.

   And mostly normal evolution in engine design and aerodynamics are responsible for this.

Quoting ajhYXE (Reply 27):
It is the most radically different aircraft since the 747.

I would argue that the A380 holds that trophy.  .

Quoting Glareskin (Reply 28):
ame changer? In technology yes: full carbon fuselage, cabin pressure, dimming windows.

The fuselage is made for just over 50% of carbon, it is by no means a full carbon fuselage. Different cabin pressure (and humidity) is already to be found on the A380.

Quoting Glareskin (Reply 28):
I'dhaveto argue here. The 345 was the first ULH aircraft available, allowing SIN - EWR and comparable routes.

   Very true again.

Quoting CXB77L (Reply 32):
747 - the first wide-body that made flying affordable for the masses.
A300 - the first wide-body twin-jet.
767 - the jet that pioneered ETOPS.
777 - the first long range twin-jet, all but eliminating the need for mid-size quads.

That is a nice and realistic list to which I would add the A380 and the B787. The latter predominantly for it's (almost) bleed-less design and electronic systems architecture. That is the most interesting novelty on the B787 imho.  .

Quoting zeke (Reply 35):
Quoting UAL727NE (Reply 2):
more cabin humidity

Actually it is the same cabin humidity that is available on other aircraft today.

   So true again.

Quoting zeke (Reply 35):
Quoting dfwrevolution (Reply 9):
The 787 is revolutionary in both the extent of composites and method of application.

It has less composites than an A380, and the method of application of them is not that revolutionary, the technology for making the fuselages was actually developed for making sails.

By weight the A380 holds (significantly) more composites then the B787-8. But the technology you referred to has been made available for civil airliners in this. Though not done by Boeing but by suppliers, that is what we could give the B787 credit for as well.

[Edited 2011-11-20 05:01:03]
 
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RE: How Is The 787 A "Game Changing" Airplane?

Sun Nov 20, 2011 3:58 pm

Quoting UAL727NE (Reply 2):
I think part of it being a game changer is the new window dimmers.......

Such a flashback to recall that the Lockheed L-1011 Tristar had a simplified version of this as an airline option back in 1972. I think they called them "monochromatic window shades" and they featured a knob that you would turn, functioning much the same as a polarized lens attachment for a 35mm camera. Don't recall whether any airlines actually ordered this option.

Of course, the 787 has them as standard equipment, but I would not exactly consider the adoption of 40-year old technology as standard equipment on a new 21st century airliner as "game changing."
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RE: How Is The 787 A "Game Changing" Airplane?

Sun Nov 20, 2011 4:07 pm

Quoting tayser (Reply 8):

IMHO the game changing is the routes you suggest, but it will be with a hub on one side of the route. The 788 will provide much lower per trip costs by the, 71st frame. The 788/789 will open up routes in particular to the large O&D hubs with slots. ICN, new PEK, IAD, HKG, and otherss. Most of the routes I can name will have an Asian hub on one side. Partially due to airport expansion... not happening to a significant degree at so many western airports.

The 787 will also help the major relievers hubs. For example, it could help either BER or MUC. I do not see connecting many small cities to other small cities. For with the NEO and MAX, longer connections will be more economical too.

So is the 787 a game changer? I believe so. The re-engined narrowbodies will be just as much. So itself impact will be partially masked by market evolution.

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RE: How Is The 787 A "Game Changing" Airplane?

Sun Nov 20, 2011 4:20 pm

Quoting tayser (Reply 8):
The 788 is essentially a ~220-250 seater plane, depending on final seating config, which can fly routes from circa 1-2 million people cities which dont have hubs/enormous feeds to fill larger planes to other cities over very long ranges.

It's much longer range than a 332 which is the comparable (seating-wise) aircraft -

Much longer?

A 238t A332 has a nominal range of 7 250Nm with 250 pax, compared to 7 650Nm with 250 pax for the 787-8 (eventually).

In fact QF (Jetstar) ordered 238 tonners to do exactly what they'd wanted their 787's to do until they were delayed

Quoting pygmalion (Reply 18):
The 787 is already a game changer...

Its large number of sales with the composite technology and the rest forced Airbus to revise the first A350 into the A350-XWB with CFRP panels etc..

It changed the game

And the capabilities of the A330-200 forced Boeing into ...... the 787....   

Quoting Chiad (Reply 29):
The NEO, with orders just shy of 1300 within 1 year of launch, forced the MAX - seating: 180
The B787, with orders around 800 within 7 years of launch, forced the A350. - seating 210 - 350
The A380, with orders around 240 withing 11 years of launch, forced the B748 - seating 500

And the 332 forced the 787...  

I'd argue that it was more the 772LR and 773ER that "forced" Airbus into the A350XWB by the way, not the 787 alone...

In truth, every new aircraft should "change the game" in some whay or other.

Rgds
 
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RE: How Is The 787 A "Game Changing" Airplane?

Sun Nov 20, 2011 4:21 pm

I rather like the notion of "game changing" when describing an aircraft like the Boeing 787, but I think the point is better made when the context is defined. New materials and methods, for instance, like a category from the Academy Awards, might be appropriate justification for defining "game changing" for the 787. No question but that the Boeing 707 was "game changing" in that it helped significantly to define the "jet age" especially when by 1969 when the 747 arrived, more passengers crossed the Atlantic Ocean by air than by sea. It could be argued, however, that the Boeing 720 was also a "game changer" in its time, albeit on perhaps a smaller scale, having by virtue of new lighter weight materials and improved design performance, brought jet service to communities that could not accommodate the larger, heavier 707s and DC-8s at the time. And certainly, the Boeing 727 and Douglas DC-9s picked up in short order where the 720 left off. In terms of style, I'd have to say that the Sud Aviation SE-210 Caravelle was a game changer in having introduced a totally radical new styling to aircraft that continues to this very day. But let's face it: The real "game changer" in the modern "jet age" was the deHavilland DH-106 Comet Mk1. The gauntlet was thrown down on this pioneering aircraft and the world's airlines beat a path to Hatfield, England in the early post WW2 years. Although the type failed to dominate due to its early technological failure, the notion endured and the dream was realized. We only improved on the idea that was born in the Comet and we have hardly looked back since. And finally, let's say that Concorde was also game changing, though it won't receive this credit until there is a practical successor. But there it is for what it is worth.
 
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RE: How Is The 787 A "Game Changing" Airplane?

Sun Nov 20, 2011 4:29 pm

Quoting zeke (Reply 35):
Actually it is the same cabin humidity that is available on other aircraft today.

Please please show me where it only has the same cabin humidity. Or maybe perhaps all the airlines who bought the bird are all blown over by Boeing's marketing department that they forgot to check the figures and specs. Come on.

Technically all aircraft can have the same humidity, but where the 787 is different is that it won't require the same level of maintenance and care for a higher humidity as other common metal airframes. At this point you are being a bit disingenuous.

Quoting zeke (Reply 35):
If you believe the Boeing blurb, it will have the lowest maintenance costs, so that does not gel with that statement. Cannot have it both ways.

I'm no finance guy, but I do think that if
1. I lower my maintenance costs, while
2. Keep the same pricing structure with regard to how much I charge my customers (airlines or customers), that
3. I will make more profit.

Quoting Stitch (Reply 41):
Ancillaries are more than just spare parts.

Couldn't say it better myself.

I also think people are getting hung up on the whole "technology" piece. I think the analysts and, ahem AIRLINE EXECS,

A. http://www.flightglobal.com/news/art...na-makes-maiden-787-flight-363878/
B. http://www.komonews.com/news/boeing/130827153.html

see "game-changing" in more than just technology, but in how they can operate their airline.
 
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RE: How Is The 787 A "Game Changing" Airplane?

Sun Nov 20, 2011 5:37 pm

It will be more of a gamechanger for the scrappers than for the passengers  .

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