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qf002
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Qantas Union Talks Collapse

Mon Nov 21, 2011 4:21 am

Today marks 21 days since the FWA ruling, which allowed 3 weeks for the industrial dispute to be sorted out through negotiations between Qantas and the respective unions.

Looks like QF will be going to arbitration with the Pilots Union after talks collapsed with Union officials this afternoon:

http://www.smh.com.au/business/qanta...collapse-union-20111121-1nqcz.html

Reports yesterday also indicated that negotiations between QF and the TWU were in a similar state, with QF refusing to agree to an extension to the talks.

Will be interesting to see what happens from here. Does anyone know the sort of time frame/process we can expect in the arbitration by FWA?

And can this please not just become a continuation of the QF bashing thread that the Gounding ones turned into?
 
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Zkpilot
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RE: Qantas Union Talks Collapse

Mon Nov 21, 2011 5:12 am

Quoting qf002 (Thread starter):
And can this please not just become a continuation of the QF bashing thread that the Gounding ones turned into?

It is hard not to when management/board decide to sabotage the negotiations to force arbitration. To explain why it is sabotage, they have deliberately offered less than what was previously offered only a few weeks ago! In any negotiation/bargaining both sides need to move to a middle ground... Qantas management have decided to go backwards... a bit like being at an auction, bidding $500 and then making the next bid $400.
64 types. 45 countries. 24 airlines.
 
Airvan00
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RE: Qantas Union Talks Collapse

Mon Nov 21, 2011 5:19 am

Quoting Zkpilot (Reply 1):
a bit like being at an auction, bidding $500 and then making the next bid $400.

Of course that is what they were going to do. They know the arbitrator is just going to pick the midpoint and declare that is what will happen. If Qantas get a chance, they will put the lowest bid on the table knowing that the final arbitration figure will be somewhere above.
 
qf340500
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RE: Qantas Union Talks Collapse

Mon Nov 21, 2011 5:34 am

... and thats why arbitrations exist... to find the MIDDLEpoint... it is the the only way to settle a dispute where both (!!!) parties are stubborn and are not willing (or not able) to give in... its works perfectly fine in Europe and especially Germany since years (and Germany has certainly many and powerful unions!)

Btw, the economy in Oz must be really in great shape, so that unions can risk so much of their member's wellbeing and existence (am i correct that unions are actually there to safeguard the interests of the members???), only to win the pissing contest between the union leaders and the airline management... They should support the QF management to bring the ship on course again and in a few years they might be in a much better position to ask (whatever they asking for). Well, tells me how shortsighted many union leaders are...

Let the arbitration begin!
 
qf002
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RE: Qantas Union Talks Collapse

Mon Nov 21, 2011 5:40 am

Quoting Zkpilot (Reply 1):
It is hard not to when management/board decide to sabotage the negotiations to force arbitration. To explain why it is sabotage, they have deliberately offered less than what was previously offered only a few weeks ago! In any negotiation/bargaining both sides need to move to a middle ground... Qantas management have decided to go backwards... a bit like being at an auction, bidding $500 and then making the next bid $400.

What's to say the Unions haven't done the same? QF offers $500, Unions offer $1000. But then Qantas says no and the Unions offer $1100. It works both ways, and obviously the Unions are going to come to arbitration with the highest possible number, while QF comes with the lowest possible number.

Quoting airvan00 (Reply 2):
Of course that is what they were going to do. They know the arbitrator is just going to pick the midpoint and declare that is what will happen. If Qantas get a chance, they will put the lowest bid on the table knowing that the final arbitration figure will be somewhere above.

And the Unions will put the highest bid on the table knowing that the final figure will be somewhere below...
 
cam747
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RE: Qantas Union Talks Collapse

Mon Nov 21, 2011 6:06 am

Quoting Zkpilot (Reply 1):
It is hard not to when management/board decide to sabotage the negotiations to force arbitration. To explain why it is sabotage, they have deliberately offered less than what was previously offered only a few weeks ago! In any negotiation/bargaining both sides need to move to a middle ground... Qantas management have decided to go backwards... a bit like being at an auction, bidding $500 and then making the next bid $400.

Could you offer some more information please - you seem to be in the know about the 'confidential' negotiation talks, so spill the beans.....what exactly was offered - and what exactly was rejected. Or are you just taking Tony Sheldon's word as gospel?
 
Eagleboy
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RE: Qantas Union Talks Collapse

Mon Nov 21, 2011 6:12 am

Quoting airvan00 (Reply 2):
They know the arbitrator is just going to pick the midpoint and declare that is what will happen.
Quoting QF340500 (Reply 3):
... and thats why arbitrations exist... to find the MIDDLEpoint... it is the the only way to settle a dispute where both (!!!) parties are stubborn and are not willing (or not able) to give in... its works perfectly fine in Europe and especially Germany since years (and Germany has certainly many and powerful unions!)

In theory this is how arbitration should work, "if both sides are unhappy with the middle ground then it is fair"
However the most recent case of arbitration for EI labour relations had the arbitrator actually giving the company MORE than they had tried to impose (illegally under contract conditions) upon their cabin crew before the arbitrator got involved. So perhaps this previous balance is ending..............
 
Sydscott
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RE: Qantas Union Talks Collapse

Mon Nov 21, 2011 6:47 am

Quoting cam747 (Reply 5):
Or are you just taking Tony Sheldon's word as gospel?

Wrong Union. Tony Shelden is the baggage handlers etc not the Pilots.

But don't worry that'll end up in Arbitration too.

What's going to be more interesting is the Pilots Union case in the Federal Court. Since the Pilots Union, and their members, weren't disrupting in any way the QF schedule or passengers it's easy from a laymans point of view to say that FWA probably erred in ending their protected industrial action. But we won't find that out until December at the earliest.

To be honest I think the pilots have had the raw end of the stick in getting lumped in with Tony Sheldon and the idiots at the TWU but we'll have to wait and see what the Federal Court says about as yet untested legislation.
 
qf002
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RE: Qantas Union Talks Collapse

Mon Nov 21, 2011 7:12 am

Quoting sydscott (Reply 7):
To be honest I think the pilots have had the raw end of the stick in getting lumped in with Tony Sheldon and the idiots at the TWU but we'll have to wait and see what the Federal Court says about as yet untested legislation.

That I agree with, and I think the Pilots should have suspended their action when these other unions started becoming vocal so as to avoid being clumped together with them. The Pilots Union has been at work for quite a while now lobbying for some things that I actually see as reasonable (ie Qantas pilots flying Qantas planes), but have been dragged down by the actions of others... They'd have been better off stopping their action a few months ago and resuming it once TWU etc were dealt with.
 
thegeek
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RE: Qantas Union Talks Collapse

Mon Nov 21, 2011 7:20 am

Quoting qf002 (Reply 8):
some things that I actually see as reasonable (ie Qantas pilots flying Qantas planes)

On one level this seems intuitive, but then that depends on how you define a "Qantas pilot". If it restricts their ability to make a pilot's "B" pay scale, then why should Qantas accept that? Or restricts their ability to put them on a labour agreement which isn't the most complicated in the country, ditto.
 
Lufthansa
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RE: Qantas Union Talks Collapse

Mon Nov 21, 2011 7:50 am

Quoting thegeek (Reply 9):
On one level this seems intuitive, but then that depends on how you define a "Qantas pilot". If it restricts their ability to make a pilot's "B" pay scale, then why should Qantas accept that? Or restricts their ability to put them on a labour agreement which isn't the most complicated in the country, ditto

The pilots are idiots. They have just shot themselves in the foot. They simply don't understand the old model they have been flying under can't compete with Middle East and Asian based hubs, pure and simple as that. So any clauses to try and restrict the creation of any such hubs to fight back, effectively locks them out of that possible job because it will go ahead anyway. What the pilots should have been doing is trying to get the ability for their members to transfer to any such new carrier back and forth. Yes it would be on different terms and conditions but they just don't seem to realise Emirates and friends are doing to Long Haul flying what Virgin did to Ansett domestically. They cannot compete simply by buying new 777-300ERs and hoping to start flying one-stop to places like Paris, Rome, Vienna, etc. Without the feed from a hub it simply will not be competitive, pure and simple.

Ask the 50 something year old Ansett girls, when they were on FA's and getting $100K a year, and when they WERE NOT offered positions at virgin for half of that (those jobs went to a much younger crowd happy to work for a lot less, and mr JB is milking the benefit of that now!) if that was such a wise move? Most of them would have been faced with jobs at a Restaurant or Cafe post that and a lot of them wouldn't have liked that. Ditto for the pilots that were forced to move to the middle east or hong kong to get a job. Sure Qantas absorbed SOME of them. Virgin too for that matter, but not on the kind of terms they previously enjoyed.

This insistence from the pilots is short sighted. Emirates just ordered another 50 777-300ERs and have options for more and THEY WILL deploy them at the expense of carriers like Qantas and Air New Zealand. The pilots don't like the reality of this but it is very much a change or die kind of situation. And buying a bunch of 77W's won't magically solve that. It's going to take the power of a midway hub to do that. And if they were really smart, they wouldn't oppose the use of the Qantas brand for this new carrier because it already as a reputation in the marketplace, it doesnt' need to be established. That makes the job of growing this new carrier much much easier and faster.
 
cam747
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RE: Qantas Union Talks Collapse

Mon Nov 21, 2011 8:03 am

Quoting sydscott (Reply 7):
Wrong Union. Tony Shelden is the baggage handlers etc not the Pilots.

But don't worry that'll end up in Arbitration too.

What's going to be more interesting is the Pilots Union case in the Federal Court. Since the Pilots Union, and their members, weren't disrupting in any way the QF schedule or passengers it's easy from a laymans point of view to say that FWA probably erred in ending their protected industrial action. But we won't find that out until December at the earliest.

To be honest I think the pilots have had the raw end of the stick in getting lumped in with Tony Sheldon and the idiots at the TWU but we'll have to wait and see what the Federal Court says about as yet untested legislation.

Yeh I agree. I realise Tony's TWU, but he seems to take it upon himself to make pubic comment about the whole process no matter who's involved. I mentioned him because he was on one of the breakfast shows this morning giving everyone an update on the current arbitration, and how awful Qantas management are.
 
qf002
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RE: Qantas Union Talks Collapse

Mon Nov 21, 2011 8:04 am

Quoting thegeek (Reply 9):
On one level this seems intuitive, but then that depends on how you define a "Qantas pilot". If it restricts their ability to make a pilot's "B" pay scale, then why should Qantas accept that? Or restricts their ability to put them on a labour agreement which isn't the most complicated in the country, ditto.

In my books a Qantas pilot is one who is directly employed by Qantas Airways, has been trained by Qantas Airways and is paid directly by Qantas Airways with conditions set by Qantas Airways (not Qantas Group...) They don't have to be Australian based, but they do have to be employees of Qantas rather than being employees of Jetconnect, or Jetstar, or RedQ (whatever) etc.

Quoting Lufthansa (Reply 10):
They have just shot themselves in the foot. They simply don't understand the old model they have been flying under can't compete with Middle East and Asian based hubs, pure and simple as that. So any clauses to try and restrict the creation of any such hubs to fight back, effectively locks them out of that possible job because it will go ahead anyway.

It should be made clear that the Pilots Union is not against the creation of an Asian hub (so far as I am aware anyway), they simply object to Qantas branded services from this hub being flown through a system similar to the Jetconnect on across the Tasman, or having JQ employed pilots fly the QF services/planes.

Easy way around this -- QF can develop their hub wherever in the world they want to, and just have Qantas pilots either stationed there (they can still be local pilots, so long as they are Qantas pilots, and not contractors from another company). Alternatively, they can fly extended rotations out of Australia (Australia-Asia-Europe-Asia-Australia). Nothing that the Pilots Union is doing is stopping QF from opening a hub in Asia.

Of course the other alternative is to start a whole new airline (not something that has my support...)
 
Lufthansa
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RE: Qantas Union Talks Collapse

Mon Nov 21, 2011 8:25 am

Quoting qf002 (Reply 12):
It should be made clear that the Pilots Union is not against the creation of an Asian hub (so far as I am aware anyway), they simply object to Qantas branded services from this hub being flown through a system similar to the Jetconnect on across the Tasman, or having JQ employed pilots fly the QF services/planes.

One of the conditions they are arguing for is if QF stick their code on one of these flights (and that includes Jetstar flights, hence they dispute about if they are demanding jetstar pilots get the same conditions as them... both are putting the argument in the light that reflects their case back but basically of course QF should and will want to stick its own flight codes on other parts of the QF group) then those flights must be either QF pilots or have the same conditions as them. Which is virtually impossible under a different countries labour laws regardless.

Quoting qf002 (Reply 12):
Of course the other alternative is to start a whole new airline (not something that has my support...)

This is the only option. Without it, your hub WILL NOT BE as powerful and effective as it simply will not legally be able to pick up the feed required from the many other asian countries to make it work. It cannot rely on mere Australian feed alone , therefore this new organisation MUST have asian interests and business partners involved, even if QF effectively controls by sponsoring finance for partners etc. The conditions the QF pilots have asked for in terms of if QF code shares on those flights it effectively must be QF pilot conditions will make things difficult. And even if they do earn a SLIGHTLY LOWER wage (check out with cathay and SIA pilots earn, its hardly mexican wages) they will have more disposable income by the time they pay tax at local rates instead of sky high Australian income tax rates.

Hence my original argument. They should have argued for preferential treatment at the new carrier, maybe 30% of the cockpit seats etc, the ability to transfer back and forth from Australian bases. Right now, all that FWA will be able to do is enforce terms and conditions relating 'directly' to the employees conditions, that is wages, hours worked etc. They will not be able to enforce something relating to a companies investments and nor should they be able to. Hence, after doing so, I wouldn't be surprised if AJ and friends said "well you guys could have been part of the action but since you did that F U we'll just hire others, like EK and friends are doing'
 
qf002
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RE: Qantas Union Talks Collapse

Mon Nov 21, 2011 10:51 am

Quoting Lufthansa (Reply 13):
One of the conditions they are arguing for is if QF stick their code on one of these flights (and that includes Jetstar flights, hence they dispute about if they are demanding jetstar pilots get the same conditions as them...

That aspect I don't support, no. It's a bit ridiculous to expect Qantas to adhere to conditions that would effectively not allow them to codeshare on any flight, worldwide. How that's in the customer's interest is beyond me.
 
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par13del
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RE: Qantas Union Talks Collapse

Mon Nov 21, 2011 11:28 am

Quoting qf002 (Reply 4):
What's to say the Unions haven't done the same? QF offers $500, Unions offer $1000. But then Qantas says no and the Unions offer $1100. It works both ways, and obviously the Unions are going to come to arbitration with the highest possible number, while QF comes with the lowest possible number.

Unions can only come into the negotiations with reasonable numbers, they do not set salaries or pay scales, those are always set by management whether by collective negotiations or simple mandate.
The unions can come to the table with their last negotiated package numbers as a base, unlike management who can come to the table with something totally new establishing a new base point. The power of unions is blown out of proportion, usually giving management a free hand when they screw up and cost the company money, blame it on the union.

Unions or not, management always holds the upper hand going into these negotiations, including arbitration, the independent bodies in the dispute have already made some rulings favorably to management, so in arbitration I will be shocked if they simply set a mid point between both parties, I expect the financial numbers to be closely aligned to what management wants with a "sprinkling" non-financial or low financial aspects given to the unions to "save face", maybe they will even attempt to have government pick up some of the tab, but at the end of the day, I expect the arbitration to be exactly what management wanted and expected.
 
Sydscott
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RE: Qantas Union Talks Collapse

Mon Nov 21, 2011 9:27 pm

Quoting Lufthansa (Reply 10):

The pilots are idiots. They have just shot themselves in the foot. They simply don't understand the old model they have been flying under can't compete with Middle East and Asian based hubs, pure and simple as that.

Really? I think up until the TWU started playign silly buggers with strikes the QF Pilots had been remarkably smart. Choosing not to disrupt flying passengers other than with announcements they appeared to make a simple public point of having QF pilots on QF flights. The had already lost the round on Jetconnect which in turn means that there is no way the Courts or FWA could make their demand a reality. They had to bargain for it. That gave QF an enormous amount of power in their enterprise bargaining with QF basically able to say "if this is what you want what are you going to give for it?" On the other side of the argument this dispute was only about long haul pilots. The short haul pilots contract comes up for renewal next year. So no doubt the Unions tactic was to wait until both the long haul and short haul pilots were out together before they got nastier. QF's tactic has meant this will not happen so I agree with QF002, the pilots should have suspended their Industrial Action so as to remain outside of the current proceedings. Unfortunately for them the all misread Alan Joyce and Leigh Clifford. They chose to provoke and have now sqaushed themselves in the process.

Quoting cam747 (Reply 11):
I mentioned him because he was on one of the breakfast shows this morning giving everyone an update on the current arbitration, and how awful Qantas management are.

Again, I think this is the Pilots Union playing it smart. They know the TWU is more militant so they're probably happy for them to be the public face of things while they play in the background and get in front of the Federal Court.

Quoting Lufthansa (Reply 13):
The conditions the QF pilots have asked for in terms of if QF code shares on those flights it effectively must be QF pilot conditions will make things difficult.

Of course it is but the courts have already ruled on Jetconnect so they know QF can have wholly owned foreign subs flying with foreign labour under QF codes. The only way for them to get what they want was to bargain for it from Management. They were never going to get that from QF so, as I said above, I think this was all about waiting it out until the short haul pilots could come out with them so they could stick the knife into QF Management together. AJ has done well to divide and conquer here if the Federal Court doesn't intervene.
 
Lufthansa
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RE: Qantas Union Talks Collapse

Mon Nov 21, 2011 11:13 pm

But it misses the point,
that the pilots could have negotiated a certain percentage of seats at the new entity. That will be opportunity
to fly a320s and probably 787s deep in asia and I bet my bottom dollar into europe too. This is something
they could have had. Oh... not so sure about short haul going out with long haul. Those guys still remember the
pilots dispute in 1989. QF Long haul pilots undermined short haul pilots by flying 747s around domestically. That
according to some people hasn't been forgotten. But it is of course a possibility.

Anyway point being, this is a missed opportunity for the pilots.
 
SonomaFlyer
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RE: Qantas Union Talks Collapse

Mon Nov 21, 2011 11:49 pm

I don't blame pilots for wanting to hold the line and to maximize the opportunity of their membership to move onwards and upwards. If we were talking about the regulated 70's, none of this would really be an issue.

In the current enviroment where foreign flag carriers can and will move aggressively into Aus/NZ, QF and NZ must adapt their business model as much as possible to compete. Both airlines are already at a competitive disadvantage because their primary hubs aren't mid-way between Europe and Australia/NZ like EK and the other gulf carriers. Establishing mid point hubs which can effectively compete with those carriers is the only solution to keep carriers like QF in business as far as flying to Europe is concerned.

If/when aircraft are developed which can effectively fly non-stop between SYD and Europe, the impact of EK and others will be lessened. However, that is many years away.
 
Lufthansa
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RE: Qantas Union Talks Collapse

Mon Nov 21, 2011 11:55 pm

Quoting SonomaFlyer (Reply 18):
Establishing mid point hubs which can effectively compete with those carriers is the only solution to keep carriers like QF in business as far as flying to Europe is concerned.

Thank you very much! Why this is so hard to understand for so many I cannot see. And without the traffic of the business you can fight over everything you want but it's pretty much irrelevant because you won't have any money coming in the door, pure and simple. Oh and it's not just the european market. It's the ability to serve markets also deep into Asia, as many cities in Asia that generate substantial traffic won't generate enough to serve all the major Australian cities non-stop.

this is very much a change or die environment. And a huge group here seem to think 77W's would magically solve things. They would do two things. Reduce the fuel bill on 747-400 rates, but do so by adding huge finance charges/lease charges. It wouldn't enable new routes to open up to cities like Paris and Rome or even Beijing because it wouldn't provide the feed of the hub without changing the overall business model. That can only be done through establishing a new hub, and to do that means a new company (though if it were me I'd be pushing to use the existing brand).
 
Thrust
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RE: Qantas Union Talks Collapse

Tue Nov 22, 2011 12:38 am

Virgin Australia has to be the happiest carrier on the planet right now. Richard Branson has to be loving every second of this.
Fly one thing; Fly it well
 
Lufthansa
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RE: Qantas Union Talks Collapse

Tue Nov 22, 2011 1:45 am

Quoting Thrust (Reply 20):
Virgin Australia has to be the happiest carrier on the planet right now. Richard Branson has to be loving every second of this.

well they made a small loss last year (partly due to the expense from the upgrades converting from Blue to Australia) so it should have definitely reversed that and probably stuck their transpacific operations into profitable mode. But I can't just see them being anywhere near as happy as Emirates or Etihad.
 
qf002
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RE: Qantas Union Talks Collapse

Tue Nov 22, 2011 2:16 am

Quoting par13del (Reply 15):
Unions can only come into the negotiations with reasonable numbers, they do not set salaries or pay scales, those are always set by management whether by collective negotiations or simple mandate.

Well if that's the case then I can't understand why they are keen for a 21 day extension rather than going to arbitration. FWA will come to a reasonable conclusion, so if the figure that the unions were offering was reasonable (by a third party standard) then they should be embracing arbitration rather than trying to hammer something out in even more negotiations.

Quoting Lufthansa (Reply 17):
Anyway point being, this is a missed opportunity for the pilots.

I don't agree. I think that the pilots are in the strongest position of the three unions, in that they've already had a semi-victory (one judge of the three at the FWA hearing over Jetconnect agreed strongly with their case), and what they are arguing could be seen as being supported by the spirit of the Qantas Sales Act. It's no good for this union to get a quota in the new airline, because it's based offshore and their members are all residents of Australia. Even if this was offered in negotiations, QF wants to leave the high cost, complicated contract structure and so on that exists here behind when they open up shop in Asia, so it really would have undermined their entire purpose...

Quoting Thrust (Reply 20):
Virgin Australia has to be the happiest carrier on the planet right now.

Yep, cos making a loss on your business is a joyous situation to be in...
 
Lufthansa
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RE: Qantas Union Talks Collapse

Tue Nov 22, 2011 2:49 am

Quoting qf002 (Reply 22):
It's no good for this union to get a quota in the new airline, because it's based offshore and their members are all residents of Australia. Even if this was offered in negotiations, QF wants to leave the high cost, complicated contract structure and so on that exists here behind when they open up shop in Asia, so it really would have undermined their entire purpose.

There is one big big problem with that assumption. It assumes the alternative is there for QF to provide that opportunity in its own right. That assumption is simply wrong. QF won't operate it in their ownright. Emirates, Qatar, Singapore and Cathay will carry those passengers. The best QF will be able to do is some kind of codeshare/JSA and that will mean QF pilots still miss out on that flying. Let me ask you this. Would you rather be a young first officer, and get say $120 at QF on Australian conditions, or maybe $100 at this new asian outfit (lets say 2nd officer on the 787 long haul, it would be similar to what a mate of mine is getting at Qatar as a 777 2nd officer) and between 7-15% income tax and the actual chance to do this flying. This is what you are all missing. Especially if you could transfer back and forth from the Australian base after time. There is no path forward with QF mainline on these routes as it is. THIS IS THE BIG POINT. They will be reduced to city pairs ex australia non-stop with high O & D. Agreeing to something would provide more ADDITIONAL flying opportunities that are now, in the direction of europe are largely going to end up with Emirates, and in Asia, a couple of the big Asia carriers. Cathay has already shown how much it doesn't want to co-operate with BA and QF. Look at the power of that. Cathay is double BA to london, and even look at something like BNE-HKG. Cathay is double daily half the week, QF can't even get a daily service up and running, without the feed at the other end. THAT is the power of the hub. QF can't fight that with their existing model. They will simply get eaten alive. By negotiating like that it gives QF long haul pilots additional new opportunities to be part of the action. Without it, Emirates gets that action. QF pilots get 100% of nothing. The unions never will ever want to acknowledge this to their members because it means supporting something that will partially undermine the unions power. Nobody wants to slash their own throat right? But that thinking, will mean Emirates and Cathay get that flying.


the QF mainline model can only suppose cities that are very high O&D pairs if they have a fuel stop in Asia. Yes they would have to work in asia on terms similar to what Cathay, Singapore and Emirates pilots are doing but right now there are HEAPS of australian pilots already doing that, including plenty of ex Ansett ones.
 
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BoeingVista
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RE: Qantas Union Talks Collapse

Tue Nov 22, 2011 3:50 am

21 days later... Just thought I'd pop in and say hi, to the usual suspects

Qantas were never going to come to an agreement with the unions so this is no surprise.
BV
 
MEA
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RE: Qantas Union Talks Collapse

Tue Nov 22, 2011 6:25 am

Tony Sheldon is playing it up so he can be elected president of the ALP. The whole union movement is dwindling in numbers so they will be using this for PR and trying to drum up member numbers.

It's no coincidence that most of these issues arise from industries/organisations that were/are government owned and have a strong union presence...
 
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EK413
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RE: Qantas Union Talks Collapse

Tue Nov 22, 2011 7:19 am

Quoting MEA (Reply 25):
Tony Sheldon is playing it up so he can be elected president of the ALP. The whole union movement is dwindling in numbers so they will be using this for PR and trying to drum up member numbers.

Don't mean to jump teams but seems Tony Sheldon has his own interests on his mind and not the members... The airline will be driven into the ground if there isn't a agreement signed off...

EK413
Good evening, ladies and gentlemen. We are tonight’s entertainment!
 
AJ
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RE: Qantas Union Talks Collapse

Tue Nov 22, 2011 7:27 am

Quoting Lufthansa (Reply 17):
Those guys still remember the
pilots dispute in 1989. QF Long haul pilots undermined short haul pilots by flying 747s around domestically.

I don't believe that is true. Do you have evidence of that?
 
kiwiandrew

RE: Qantas Union Talks Collapse

Tue Nov 22, 2011 7:39 am

Quoting Lufthansa (Reply 17):
Oh... not so sure about short haul going out with long haul. Those guys still remember the
pilots dispute in 1989

Does anyone have any figures on what percentage of the current QF short haul pilots were actually flying 22 years ago? I would imagine that for a lot of them it is ancient history and before their time.
 
thegeek
Posts: 1334
Joined: Mon Nov 26, 2007 7:20 am

RE: Qantas Union Talks Collapse

Tue Nov 22, 2011 11:13 pm

Quoting Lufthansa (Reply 17):
QF Long haul pilots undermined short haul pilots by flying 747s around domestically.

This was before Qantas absorbed Australian wasn't it? The way I remember it QF was allowed to fly domestically because of the pilots dispute.
 
Airvan00
Posts: 236
Joined: Thu Oct 30, 2008 1:06 am

RE: Qantas Union Talks Collapse

Tue Nov 22, 2011 11:17 pm

Quoting thegeek (Reply 29):
This was before Qantas absorbed Australian wasn't it? The way I remember it QF was allowed to fly domestically because of the pilots dispute.

Some would call that "strikebreaking" or "crossing picket lines"
 
Thrust
Posts: 2587
Joined: Wed Sep 17, 2003 12:17 pm

RE: Qantas Union Talks Collapse

Tue Nov 22, 2011 11:21 pm

Quoting qf002 (Reply 22):

I was simply saying that Virgin Australia's main rival is Qantas...any kind of hurdles Qantas runs into is going to be a gain for Virgin Australia. I'm not sure about how all his airlines are doing, but they certainly seem to all firmly dug their feet into hard ground to keep from sinking underneath the quicksand. Virgin Atlantic, Virgin Australia, Virgin Blue, and Virgin America all seem to be doing well enough that their existence certainly is sustainable.
Fly one thing; Fly it well
 
User avatar
EK413
Posts: 5558
Joined: Sat Nov 29, 2003 3:11 pm

RE: Qantas Union Talks Collapse

Wed Nov 23, 2011 12:59 am

Quoting Thrust (Reply 31):
Virgin Blue

Virgin Blue no longer exist   Rise Virgin Australia  

EK413
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