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dlramp4life
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International Airlines And PHX

Mon Nov 21, 2011 8:51 pm

Over the past couple of years PHX has redone its international gates in terminal 4... It seems though that no other international airline has no interest in starting service at the airport...The only carriers are BA, AeroMexico, Air Canada, and West Jet...LH used to have service in PHX but that only lasted about three years...BA flies a 744 six times a week, pax loads and cargo loads are keeping at a steady rate.... Couldn't KLM or Korean Air have the same success in PHX as BA is?
 
yegbey01
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RE: International Airlines And PHX

Mon Nov 21, 2011 9:16 pm

Bottom line is yield. WestJet for instance runs a lot of flights during the winter season to PHX. But these are mostly snowbirds escaping the harsh Canadian winters and not high flying business executives.

Plus, I don't think Phoenix is an attractive proposition to Europeans. They can fly easily to Egypt, Dubai, Abu Dhabi, Doha, etc.. and get the sun, the beach and the desert all combined and travel half the distance.
 
LAXdude1023
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RE: International Airlines And PHX

Mon Nov 21, 2011 9:20 pm

Quoting dlramp4life (Thread starter):
Couldn't KLM or Korean Air have the same success in PHX as BA is?

They would have much better luck getting another carrier to Europe than Asia.
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desertjets
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RE: International Airlines And PHX

Mon Nov 21, 2011 9:32 pm

Quoting yegbey01 (Reply 1):
Plus, I don't think Phoenix is an attractive proposition to Europeans. They can fly easily to Egypt, Dubai, Abu Dhabi, Doha, etc.. and get the sun, the beach and the desert all combined and travel half the distance.

Arizona in general is a popular destination for European tourists, who are especially interested by the notion of the American west and the natural wonders like the Grand Canyon, Sedona, the Sonoran desert and Las Vegas...... But tourist traffic doesn't necessarily care about non-stop flights or good business/first class service.



When US gets the A350 many have speculated that PHX will get non-stop service to Europe.... likely FRA for the *A connections. But it will take a combo of the right aircraft plus an improved local economy to make European service from PHX work.
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Byrdluvs747
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RE: International Airlines And PHX

Mon Nov 21, 2011 9:44 pm

Quoting yegbey01 (Reply 1):
Plus, I don't think Phoenix is an attractive proposition to Europeans.

Many who don't live in Arizona, and many Arizonans for that matter, don't realize that there is a healthy British business presence in the state. BP, HSBC Group, Rio Tinto, BAE Systems, British Airways and Caparo Group all have a presence here.

On the leisure side, the attraction for Europeans is the Grand Canyon maybe with a day or two in Scottsdale. I see quite a few Brits in Old Town or connecting to FLG in PHX.
The 747: The hands who designed it were guided by god.
 
point2point
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RE: International Airlines And PHX

Mon Nov 21, 2011 9:52 pm

Quoting dlramp4life (Thread starter):
It seems though that no other international airline has no interest in starting service at the airport..

Is it possible that the immigration law, SB-1070, that AZ has, is having a bad taste in a lot of those outside of the U.S. (considering all of the uproar there was when the bill was passed), and therefore foreign governments/businesses, including airlines, are likely not to be drawn into anything to do with AZ?
 
PlaneAdmirer
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RE: International Airlines And PHX

Mon Nov 21, 2011 10:27 pm

Quoting point2point (Reply 5):
Is it possible that the immigration law, SB-1070, that AZ has, is having a bad taste in a lot of those outside of the U.S. (considering all of the uproar there was when the bill was passed), and therefore foreign governments/businesses, including airlines, are likely not to be drawn into anything to do with AZ?

Are you hoping? I would be shocked if more than half of Europeans and Americans even knew about it and fewer cared. Elton John playing in Tucson pointed out that he can't get married in California and there are no boycotts there. It was non-sense.

http://www.examiner.com/rock-music-i...uring-tucson-concert-7-22-10-video

Phoenix has become a low fare mecca and doesn't have a lot of international business. Those who want international travel to and from Phoenix can connect in a lot of places like IAH, DFW, ORD, and LAX.
 
azstar
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RE: International Airlines And PHX

Mon Nov 21, 2011 11:46 pm

Quoting PlaneAdmirer (Reply 6):
Elton John playing in Tucson

Although Tucson is geographically located in the State of Arizona, it is nothing like the rest of the state. Last year someone proposed seceding and forming a new state "Baja Arizona". If it actually came up for a vote I wouldn't be surprised if 80% of Pima County voted in favor of it! At least we wouldn't have to listen to that grotesque governor witch, Jan Brewer.

[Edited 2011-11-21 15:47:15]
 
EricR
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RE: International Airlines And PHX

Tue Nov 22, 2011 12:12 am

Quoting point2point (Reply 5):
Is it possible that the immigration law, SB-1070, that AZ has, is having a bad taste in a lot of those outside of the U.S. (considering all of the uproar there was when the bill was passed), and therefore foreign governments/businesses, including airlines, are likely not to be drawn into anything to do with AZ?

This law was only passed last year and has nothing to do with lack of non-stop international service to PHX. This was an issue blown way out of proportion in the US media and poorly misrepresented. The number of international flights since this law passed actually increased as WestJet announced non-stop service to YVR, YLW, YWG, YXE since this time.

Quoting PlaneAdmirer (Reply 6):
Phoenix has become a low fare mecca and doesn't have a lot of international business. Those who want international travel to and from Phoenix can connect in a lot of places like IAH, DFW, ORD, and LAX.
PHX is a low fare mecca by virtue of the fact that 70% of domestic seats out of PHX are on LCC's. However, this is a poor indicator of international yields. Take any major US airport and put 70% of their domestic seats on LCCs and you will see the yields drop there as well. However, this is no indication of the international yields out of PHX.

Check out BA's prices from PHX to any European destination and compare that to a US based carrier. You will be amazed at the premium BA charges (and gets) for its flights. This includes all classes of service. Furthermore, BA usually sends in their premium heavy 747 (the version with larger business class.....I think it has 70 J seats versus lower premium version with 50 J seats).

I think there are several main issues contributing to the lack of international carriers in PHX:
1.) The stage length on western US flights makes many European flights not as profitable.
2.) Lack of large ethnic communities (other than Hispanic - premarily Mexican)
3.) Reliance on O&D traffic. PHX has to rely much more on O&D traffic to support the flights than other US cities because the number of domestic connecting opportunities are limited due to PHX's geographic location.
4.) Most major international locations are already served N/S on international carriers via LA (300 miles to the west).

[Edited 2011-11-21 17:12:34]
 
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RE: International Airlines And PHX

Tue Nov 22, 2011 12:19 am

Quoting PlaneAdmirer (Reply 6):
Quoting point2point (Reply 5):
Is it possible that the immigration law, SB-1070, that AZ has, is having a bad taste in a lot of those outside of the U.S. (considering all of the uproar there was when the bill was passed), and therefore foreign governments/businesses, including airlines, are likely not to be drawn into anything to do with AZ?

Are you hoping?

Sure sounds like it based on the post...
"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan

Comments made here are my own and are not intended to represent the official position of Alaska Air Group
 
HUYfan
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RE: International Airlines And PHX

Tue Nov 22, 2011 12:24 am

I am very surprised US haven't exploited the capabilities of the A332 out of PHX. I would have thought NRT and FRA would have happened by now.

Kind Regards

Mike
 
point2point
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RE: International Airlines And PHX

Tue Nov 22, 2011 12:46 am

Quoting PlaneAdmirer (Reply 6):
Are you hoping? I would be shocked if more than half of Europeans and Americans even knew about it and fewer cared. Elton John playing in Tucson pointed out that he can't get married in California and there are no boycotts there. It was non-sense.
Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 9):
Sure sounds like it based on the post...

I thought that it was simply asking. How is it biased? No one can deny that there was a lot of uproar when the bill passed, as well as a number of foreign governments that were quite outspoken concerning this, and a lot of calls for boycotts, correct?

Quoting EricR (Reply 8):
This law was only passed last year and has nothing to do with lack of non-stop international service to PHX. This was an issue blown way out of proportion in the US media and poorly misrepresented. The number of international flights since this law passed actually increased as WestJet announced non-stop service to YVR, YLW, YWG, YXE since this time.

Okay, it seems WestJet increased flights during this time. Thank you. But that's about it, correct? And a year really isn't that long of a time frame concerning something such as this I would imagine.


 
 
EricR
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RE: International Airlines And PHX

Tue Nov 22, 2011 12:57 am

Quoting point2point (Reply 11):
But that's about it, correct? And a year really isn't that long of a time frame concerning something such as this I would imagine.

For the most part, yes (there may be another Canadian city that I may have left out). AC added YUL on a seasonal basis last year, but I am not sure if it is coming back this year (at least I could not find it). Unfortunately, no other international carrier.
 
ridgid727
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RE: International Airlines And PHX

Tue Nov 22, 2011 12:57 am

I have flown the BA PHX-LHR a number of times. Going over it is usually about 85% full, but coming back, it is usually right at 100%. Really wished BA would put a 777 on it though, as those 47's are pretty ravished. (they do run a 777 on their DEN-LHR)

Have heard though that AirBerlin is taking a look at PHX as well
 
777fan
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RE: International Airlines And PHX

Tue Nov 22, 2011 1:06 am

Quoting desertjets (Reply 3):
When US gets the A350 many have speculated that PHX will get non-stop service to Europe.... likely FRA for the *A connections. But it will take a combo of the right aircraft plus an improved local economy to make European service from PHX work.
Quoting PlaneAdmirer (Reply 6):
Phoenix has become a low fare mecca and doesn't have a lot of international business. Those who want international travel to and from Phoenix can connect in a lot of places like IAH, DFW, ORD, and LAX.

Seems like even US might be better off funneling FRA-PHX traffic through PHL. It'd free them up from having to use its own metal (actually two aircraft if they went daily, yes?) on a flight that they might otherwise struggle to fill and fully utilize with a 12+ hour block time.

777fan
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flymia
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RE: International Airlines And PHX

Tue Nov 22, 2011 1:12 am

Quoting point2point (Reply 5):
Is it possible that the immigration law, SB-1070, that AZ has, is having a bad taste in a lot of those outside of the U.S. (considering all of the uproar there was when the bill was passed), and therefore foreign governments/businesses, including airlines, are likely not to be drawn into anything to do with AZ?

No it is not possible.

As for PHX it does not have a huge tourist draw like LAS or MCO. It does not have much international business and it does not have a big VFR market besides for Mexico. So really it has the international service I would expect it to have. Europe is pretty far for US to run a flight there, at least with their current aircraft. Maybe with the A350 a NRT or FRA run is possible. But besides for maybe a low fare airline like Air Berlin I do not see much happening in PHX with Europe, Asia or South America. Maybe Central America.
"It was just four of us on the flight deck, trying to do our job" (Captain Al Haynes)
 
2travel2know2
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RE: International Airlines And PHX

Tue Nov 22, 2011 1:13 am

Now that US and both AV/TA (very likely) and CM (no doubt) will be in Star Alliance with them, if US don't want to serve those airlines hubs (other than seasonal SJO from PHX) maybe PHX airport could try to entice TA to fly SAL-PHX or CM PTY-PHX one day.
BTW, has great Phoenix metropolitan area a big Salvadorean / Guatemalan community?
I'm not on CM's payroll.
 
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RE: International Airlines And PHX

Tue Nov 22, 2011 2:23 am

Quoting point2point (Reply 11):
Quoting PlaneAdmirer (Reply 6):
Are you hoping? I would be shocked if more than half of Europeans and Americans even knew about it and fewer cared. Elton John playing in Tucson pointed out that he can't get married in California and there are no boycotts there. It was non-sense.

Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 9):
Sure sounds like it based on the post...


I thought that it was simply asking. How is it biased?

Re-read what you wrote:

Is it possible that the immigration law, SB-1070, that AZ has, is having a bad taste in a lot of those outside of the U.S. (considering all of the uproar there was when the bill was passed), and therefore foreign governments/businesses, including airlines, are likely not to be drawn into anything to do with AZ?


Kind of a stretch to say it's posed merely as a simple question when it has to be provided with so many suppositions (what if this, and therefore possibly that, and so ultimately etc) that it seems as if you're actively trying to draw others to a predetermined conclusion.
"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan

Comments made here are my own and are not intended to represent the official position of Alaska Air Group
 
Byrdluvs747
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RE: International Airlines And PHX

Tue Nov 22, 2011 2:30 am

Quoting point2point (Reply 11):
No one can deny that there was a lot of uproar when the bill passed, as well as a number of foreign governments that were quite outspoken concerning this, and a lot of calls for boycotts, correct?

Yes a lot of the uproar was by the pro illegal alien groups and blowhard politicians looking for votes. I never heard of one airline refusing to fly to PHX due to SB1070. BA didn't discontinue service nor did they even threaten it. The lack of intl routes from PHX is simply due to economics or logistics.

Quoting 2travel2know2 (Reply 16):
BTW, has great Phoenix metropolitan area a big Salvadorean / Guatemalan community?

I'm sure we do as many central americans are crossing the border via Mexico.

Quoting flymia (Reply 15):
But besides for maybe a low fare airline like Air Berlin I do not see much happening in PHX
Quoting ridgid727 (Reply 13):
Have heard though that AirBerlin is taking a look at PHX as well

Given their recent reductions, I would be very surprised to see AB considering PHX. They have a limited about of widebodies right now and I see routes to China or India as a better use of their metal.
The 747: The hands who designed it were guided by god.
 
flymia
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RE: International Airlines And PHX

Tue Nov 22, 2011 2:56 am

Quoting Byrdluvs747 (Reply 18):
Given their recent reductions, I would be very surprised to see AB considering PHX. They have a limited about of widebodies right now and I see routes to China or India as a better use of their metal.

I agree. But right now I think that is the only remote shot of PHX seeing increased long haul service.

Quoting 2travel2know2 (Reply 16):
BTW, has great Phoenix metropolitan area a big Salvadorean / Guatemalan community?

Hispanic community: 35.9% Mexican, 0.6% Puerto Rican 0.5% Guatemalan, 0.3% Salvadoran, 0.3% Cuban.
So no it does not.
"It was just four of us on the flight deck, trying to do our job" (Captain Al Haynes)
 
EddieDude
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RE: International Airlines And PHX

Tue Nov 22, 2011 3:05 am

Question: Does AM fly MEX-PHX or is it flying via HMO?
Upcoming flights:
April/May: AM MEX-SCL 788 (J), AM EZE-MEX 789 (J).
 
AeroMexiBoi
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RE: International Airlines And PHX

Tue Nov 22, 2011 4:53 am

Quoting EddieDude (Reply 20):
Question: Does AM fly MEX-PHX or is it flying via HMO?
AM flies via HMO.

Long gone are the days when AM had the regular flight (465) PHX-HMO-MEX during the day and at night there were nonstop flights PHX-MEX and PHX-GDL leaving around 1AM. Those were the days. I loved to work the night flights *sigh*

[Edited 2011-11-21 20:55:05]
Since 2010: CO 739/CRJ, AM 737/E190, EK 772/332, QR 320, KL 332/738, AF 380/320, LH 744/346, US 320, AS 737, DL 763/752
 
point2point
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RE: International Airlines And PHX

Tue Nov 22, 2011 6:38 am

Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 17):
Kind of a stretch to say it's posed merely as a simple question when it has to be provided with so many suppositions (what if this, and therefore possibly that, and so ultimately etc) that it seems as if you're actively trying to draw others to a predetermined conclusion.

Huh? It's a question based on facts.

I'm pretty sure here on a.net that there could be an adult conversation about this, if this bill is, if it isn't, etc.

 

[Edited 2011-11-21 22:43:54]
 
Beardown91737
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RE: International Airlines And PHX

Tue Nov 22, 2011 8:53 am

LA politicos were big on this idea of boycotting Arizona, including Tucson, but caved on Day 1 when the issue came up of whether they would banish US and Mesa from LAX. Then they had to decide on Super Shuttle which was reported to be an Arizona based subsidiary of a French company. Then they renewed a contract for red light cameras, but a year later decided to get rid of red light cameras. They were joined by other politicos but these are the stories I have handy. Very few cling to the boycott idea today. Just like the Occupiers this year, they claimed to represent more of society than actually agreed with them. If it seemed much larger to you, remember that the reporting was done by the same media that ran the story that ONT was deserted these days, even though it is busier than BUR and LGB, and even TUS.

Quoting azstar (Reply 7):
Although Tucson is geographically located in the State of Arizona, it is nothing like the rest of the state. Last year someone proposed seceding and forming a new state "Baja Arizona". If it actually came up for a vote I wouldn't be surprised if 80% of Pima County voted in favor of it! At least we wouldn't have to listen to that grotesque governor witch, Jan Brewer.

That last sentence makes yours the most politically overboard post on this thread.

We had it in both ways in California in the last year. Someone wanting to raise taxes wanting to kick some counties out, and then a secession proposal from the same counties. It happens in lots of states every decades.

Tucson is a lot like Flagstaff, no Rose Bowl parades. Think about what my screen name might mean before you reply.

Quoting flymia (Reply 15):
As for PHX it does not have a huge tourist draw like LAS or MCO.

No amusement parks, but don't discount golf.
135 hrs PIC (mostly PA-28) - not current. Landings at MDW, PIA, JAN.
 
Flyingsottsman
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RE: International Airlines And PHX

Tue Nov 22, 2011 9:25 am

I supose having San Francisco and Los Angeles to the South and Seattle and Vancover to the north would be a factor for a lack of international service from Portland. We dont hear much of Portland down here in Oz San Francisco and Los Angeles are avertised all the time for holidays to the US down here but not a thing on Portland.
If I was considering a holiday to the US, what would be in Portland to make me want to go there, what is there to do in Portland?
 
777way
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RE: International Airlines And PHX

Tue Nov 22, 2011 10:30 am

^ Portland??? PHX is Phoenix, PDX is the other city.
 
flymia
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RE: International Airlines And PHX

Tue Nov 22, 2011 2:42 pm

Quoting beardown91737 (Reply 23):
No amusement parks, but don't discount golf.

I am sure it is great but so is it in MCO or South Carolina. PHX has no "huge" tourist draw. The grand canyon is near by of course but someone from Europe or Asia who wants to see the Gran Canyon might as well just go to LAS or LAX and take a drive or flight down there and at the same time see a city known around the world.

Quoting Flyingsottsman (Reply 24):
I supose having San Francisco and Los Angeles to the South and Seattle and Vancover to the north would be a factor for a lack of international service from Portland. We dont hear much of Portland down here in Oz San Francisco and Los Angeles are avertised all the time for holidays to the US down here but not a thing on Portland.
If I was considering a holiday to the US, what would be in Portland to make me want to go there, what is there to do in Portland?

:D I see what happened. You got confused with the PDX thread about the same exact subject. PDX and PHX have been coming up a lot about not having international service. But honestly they have the service I would expect from the cities they are. They should be happy with the service they have.
"It was just four of us on the flight deck, trying to do our job" (Captain Al Haynes)
 
LAXdude1023
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RE: International Airlines And PHX

Tue Nov 22, 2011 2:56 pm

Quoting flymia (Reply 26):
I am sure it is great but so is it in MCO or South Carolina. PHX has no "huge" tourist draw. The grand canyon is near by of course but someone from Europe or Asia who wants to see the Gran Canyon might as well just go to LAS or LAX and take a drive or flight down there and at the same time see a city known around the world.

LAS is the airport of choice of the major airports for the Grand Canyon, but flying to PHX is to see it is certainly much easier than flying to LAX to drive there.

FLG is actually the closest.
FOR THE LOVE OF GOD BRING BACK THE PAYWALL!!!!
 
vv701
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RE: International Airlines And PHX

Tue Nov 22, 2011 5:38 pm

Quoting EricR (Reply 8):
Furthermore, BA usually sends in their premium heavy 747 (the version with larger business class.


BA usually operates what it calls its 'MidJ' configured 744 on the LHR PHX rotation (BA289/88). These aircraft are configured for up to 390 passengers F14 /J52 / W36 / Y288. However for the first time this month it operated a 'HiJ' 744 configured for up to 299 passengers (F14 / J70 / W30 / Y185) on 20 November.

Quoting flymia (Reply 15):
As for PHX it does not have a huge tourist draw like LAS or MCO.


I would put low tourism down to lack of awareness. AZ certainly has some excellent promotional materials - like "Arizona Highways". PHX gives access to Europeans to the Grand Canyon, Sedona, Monument Valley - yes, I know it is not in AZ - the Apache Trail and the Sonoran Desert amongst many other natural attractions. All are in significant contrast to anything available to Europeans within their own continent. But awareness is low.

Admittedly it was a long time ago (early 1980s) but I shall never forget standing smugly in the book shop on the South Rim of the Grand Canyon during my first holiday in Arizona. Standing next to me were two surprised Americans. They had just picked up a book depicting the wonders of Sedona and Red Rock Canyon of which they were clearly unaware. My smugness was because we had already visited it. In those days there was no LHR-PHX flight. So we had flown to LAX. We had driven to the South Rim spending our first night in Wiulliams. But the following morning we had first turned south to visit Sedona before driving north to the Canyon.

I am sure that awareness of attractions like Sedona in the USA is higher today than it was almost 30 years ago. But awareness in Europe is not. From time to time I will learn of someone over here intending to holiday in AZ. Out comes my collection of books depicting the natural wonders of the State collected on that first and subsequent visits. Up go their eyebrows in surprise. Of course they know about the Grand Canyon and even Monument Valley, although it is likely that they have no idea where the latter is located. But anything else . . .
 
EricR
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RE: International Airlines And PHX

Tue Nov 22, 2011 6:10 pm

Quoting flymia (Reply 26):
PHX has no "huge" tourist draw.

What are you basing this comment on? The 22.5 million non-resident visitors in 2010 and $17.7 billion in direct tourism dollars would beg to differ from your comment.

Travel to PHX from November through April, walk outside the terminal, and look up.....then you will see the "huge" tourist draw.

The greater PHX area has become one of the premier locations in the U.S. for sporting events during the winter & spring due to the nice climate.

The valley hosts two major college bowl games (three when hosting the BCS title game every 4th year), spring training (hosts half of the major league teams), fall & winter baseball leagues, a major golf event, two major car shows, a major marathon, and two NASCAR events from November to March.

Furthermore, outside activities such hiking, mountain biking, horseback riding and especially golf are huge tourist draws during the late fall, winter, and spring.
 
flymia
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RE: International Airlines And PHX

Tue Nov 22, 2011 7:55 pm

Quoting VV701 (Reply 28):
I would put low tourism down to lack of awareness. AZ certainly has some excellent promotional materials - like "Arizona Highways". PHX gives access to Europeans to the Grand Canyon, Sedona, Monument Valley - yes, I know it is not in AZ - the Apache Trail and the Sonoran Desert amongst many other natural attractions. All are in significant contrast to anything available to Europeans within their own continent. But awareness is low.


I agree it has some great natural things to see. But again PHX directly has no big tourist draw. If I live in Europe or Asia and I am going to make the long trip to the West Coast US. Am I going to go to LA then to some natural places or go to PHX and some of the natural sights after that? Or Las Vegas then go see some other things. PHX the city it self has no tourism draw and that is why we do not see Air Berlin or VS in PHX or any other long haul airline besides for BA. If US sees no market for a long haul from PHX with the huge feed it gets there is obviously not much of a market.

Quoting EricR (Reply 29):
What are you basing this comment on? The 22.5 million non-resident visitors in 2010 and $17.7 billion in direct tourism dollars would beg to differ from your comment.
Quoting EricR (Reply 29):
The greater PHX area has become one of the premier locations in the U.S. for sporting events during the winter & spring due to the nice climate.
Quoting EricR (Reply 29):
NASCAR events from November to March.
Quoting EricR (Reply 29):
BCS title game every


No actually they would not. In case you did not notice we are talking about international flights into PHX. BCS, Nascar, all other sports, conventions have very little to do with international service to PHX. It does have a draw just not huge one and very little from over seas. We can't compare PHX tourism to LAS, LAX, and SFO. I am certain that 22.5 million (source?) a large majority will be domestic visitors or from Canada.
"It was just four of us on the flight deck, trying to do our job" (Captain Al Haynes)
 
Viscount724
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RE: International Airlines And PHX

Tue Nov 22, 2011 10:05 pm

Quoting Flyingsottsman (Reply 24):
If I was considering a holiday to the US, what would be in Portland to make me want to go there

It's a good place for shopping. Oregon is one of only 5 US states (also Alaska, Delaware, Montana, New Hampshire) with no state sales tax which can add anywhere from 3% to 8% or so to the cost of most items in the 45 states with a sales tax (e.g. 6.5% just across the river from PDX in neighbouring Washington).
 
dlramp4life
Topic Author
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RE: International Airlines And PHX

Tue Nov 22, 2011 10:58 pm

Quoting flymia (Reply 30):
a large majority will be domestic visitors or from Canada.

That is true, that is why AC, WestJet, and even G4 have been successful in PHX and AZA (IWA)....But for example PDX has nonstop service to Japan and Germany. But most of the big, heavy Japan and Europe flights to/from LAX, SFO, and SEA which have more flights a day.... DL or US could fill that void
 
wn676
Posts: 1747
Joined: Mon Jun 20, 2005 5:33 am

RE: International Airlines And PHX

Tue Nov 22, 2011 11:12 pm

Quoting dlramp4life (Reply 32):
That is true, that is why AC, WestJet, and even G4 have been successful in PHX and AZA (IWA)....But for example PDX has nonstop service to Japan and Germany. But most of the big, heavy Japan and Europe flights to/from LAX, SFO, and SEA which have more flights a day.... DL or US could fill that void
G4 only serves PHX through charters, and even then you only see them maybe a couple times a year.

I think US will make the next long haul move in PHX by launching service to London, whenever the corresponding economies pick up again and the right aircraft are available. FRA and NRT are also distant possibilities.

[Edited 2011-11-22 15:19:30]
Tiny, unreadable text leaves ample room for interpretation.
 
dlramp4life
Topic Author
Posts: 1001
Joined: Sat Jun 25, 2011 6:23 pm

RE: International Airlines And PHX

Tue Nov 22, 2011 11:18 pm

Quoting wn676 (Reply 33):
G4 only serves PHX through charters, and even then you only see them maybe a couple times a year.

That is true but G4 has a successful base at AZA which I pointed out.....
 
EricR
Posts: 1226
Joined: Mon Jul 26, 2010 4:15 pm

RE: International Airlines And PHX

Tue Nov 22, 2011 11:20 pm

Quoting flymia (Reply 30):
No actually they would not. In case you did not notice we are talking about international flights into PHX. BCS, Nascar, all other sports, conventions have very little to do with international service to PHX. It does have a draw just not huge one and very little from over seas. We can't compare PHX tourism to LAS, LAX, and SFO. I am certain that 22.5 million (source?) a large majority will be domestic visitors or from Canada.

I was addressing your comment on how there is no "huge" tourist draw. The point you are unable to grasp is that the weather from November to April is the "huge" tourist draw (be it international or domestic).

Below is the source you are looking for.

http://www.azot.gov/research-and-statistics/annual

Click on: Arizona 2010 Year-End Tourism Facts - see page 5 (non-resident column)

It is clear that your comments are based on your perception only - which is fine - but it is extremely inaccurate.

Quoting flymia (Reply 30):
I am certain that 22.5 million (source?) a large majority will be domestic visitors or from Canada.

As is the case for almost every destination in the U.S. with the possible exception of Hawaii, Orlando, Miami.
 
Cubsrule
Posts: 14473
Joined: Sat May 15, 2004 12:13 pm

RE: International Airlines And PHX

Tue Nov 22, 2011 11:25 pm

Quoting flymia (Reply 30):
We can't compare PHX tourism to LAS, LAX, and SFO. I am certain that 22.5 million (source?) a large majority will be domestic visitors or from Canada.

No, but we also cannot compare PHX to PDX, TUL or SAN, and it would not shock me if PHX gets more international tourists than larger cities like DFW or ATL.
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
 
wn676
Posts: 1747
Joined: Mon Jun 20, 2005 5:33 am

RE: International Airlines And PHX

Tue Nov 22, 2011 11:26 pm

Quoting dlramp4life (Reply 34):
That is true but G4 has a successful base at AZA which I pointed out.....

Was reading it the wrong way. Oops!
Tiny, unreadable text leaves ample room for interpretation.
 
dlramp4life
Topic Author
Posts: 1001
Joined: Sat Jun 25, 2011 6:23 pm

RE: International Airlines And PHX

Tue Nov 22, 2011 11:48 pm

Quoting wn676 (Reply 37):
Quoting dlramp4life (Reply 34):
That is true but G4 has a successful base at AZA which I pointed out.....

Was reading it the wrong way. Oops!

It happens...no worries haha
 
flymia
Posts: 7127
Joined: Thu Jun 14, 2001 6:33 am

RE: International Airlines And PHX

Wed Nov 23, 2011 12:11 am

Quoting EricR (Reply 35):
I was addressing your comment on how there is no "huge" tourist draw.


Yet even with this "huge" tourist draw PHX is only able to maintain one long haul flight and not even daily. I agree many people from all over the US visit the PHX area. I am only talking about why PHX does not have much long haul or much international service for being such a large city and airport. PHX is known more in the US of course and it does not have the "destination" attractiveness like other cities in the US to international tourist.
Thank you for the link. I do see that Arizona does get over 750,000 international visitors.

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 36):
No, but we also cannot compare PHX to PDX, TUL or SAN, and it would not shock me if PHX gets more international tourists than larger cities like DFW or ATL.


I wont compare it with TUL. But in International Air Service, especially long haul SAN and PDX are very fair airports to compare PHX with. Just with International flights nothing else. Of course PHX is a larger metro area and a huge domestic hub.

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 36):
and it would not shock me if PHX gets more international tourists than larger cities like DFW or ATL.


This would shock me. Currently have no time to look that up though. I am sure there are stats somewhere.
"It was just four of us on the flight deck, trying to do our job" (Captain Al Haynes)
 
Cubsrule
Posts: 14473
Joined: Sat May 15, 2004 12:13 pm

RE: International Airlines And PHX

Wed Nov 23, 2011 12:46 am

Quoting flymia (Reply 39):
But in International Air Service, especially long haul SAN and PDX are very fair airports to compare PHX with.

In terms of international traffic generally? Certainly. In terms of international tourism specifically? Please explain.
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
 
Adam727
Posts: 106
Joined: Fri Aug 15, 2003 3:56 am

RE: International Airlines And PHX

Wed Nov 23, 2011 1:27 am

Okay even though we only have one major international flt out of phx that being BA. I can tell that the traffic has increased over the years. from a Dc-10 to a 777 then a 747 to a 777 depending on parts of the year now we ha a 747 all year around 6 days a week that is pretty good. Also Ba went from gatwick to heathrow to phoenix. I have to say slowly but surely we are doing better. Also once USairways gets the aircraft and the economy back on track London Frankfurt and Tokyo are on the list for PHX. Of couse I would love to see more 747s here in phx.
 
flymia
Posts: 7127
Joined: Thu Jun 14, 2001 6:33 am

RE: International Airlines And PHX

Wed Nov 23, 2011 1:52 am

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 40):
In terms of international traffic generally? Certainly


Yes, that is what I am talking about.

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 40):
In terms of international tourism specifically? Please explain.


As for this, I am confident PHX area has more international tourism than PDX. As for SAN though I would imagine that area gets more with its proximity to Mexico and of course LA.
"It was just four of us on the flight deck, trying to do our job" (Captain Al Haynes)
 
Cubsrule
Posts: 14473
Joined: Sat May 15, 2004 12:13 pm

RE: International Airlines And PHX

Wed Nov 23, 2011 2:12 am

Quoting flymia (Reply 42):
As for this, I am confident PHX area has more international tourism than PDX. As for SAN though I would imagine that area gets more with its proximity to Mexico and of course LA.

You are very eager to skirt the issue - let's confine ourselves to international tourists arriving by air.
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
 
EricR
Posts: 1226
Joined: Mon Jul 26, 2010 4:15 pm

RE: International Airlines And PHX

Wed Nov 23, 2011 2:44 am

Quoting flymia (Reply 39):
But in International Air Service, especially long haul SAN and PDX are very fair airports to compare PHX with. Just with International flights nothing else

Perfect. Then let's compare the three. Below are the non-stop international destinations served out of each airport.

PHX:
BA: LHR
AM: HMO
AC: YYC, YWG, YYC, YQR, YLW, YXE, YYJ, YEG, YVR
US: SJO, MEX, PVR, SJD, CUN, GYM, MZT, ZIH, ZLO

SAN:
BA: LHR
AC: YYC, YVR
WestJet: YYC
Volaris: MEX
Alaska: SJD, PVR

PDX:
AC: YYC, YVR, DL: AMS
DL: NRT (I question how long this will last)


Metro areas similar in size to PHX with more long haul international service (ie. MSP, DTW, SEA, DEN, etc.) all have major hubs that provide significant feed for international flights, are natural international gateways (ie. SEA), or have sizable ethnic populations (think TP in BOS or LO in ORD).

While PHX is a moderate sized hub, its geographic location makes it more difficult to get the necessary connecting traffic to fill long haul international flights. Heck, even hometown airline US prefers to route its flights to Europe over PHL and CLT in part because they can get more connecting traffic and the stage length is shorter.

Check out the percentage of connecting passengers that feed long haul flights out of cities such as MSP, DEN, DTW, SEA, CLT, and even larger cities such as DFW, ATL, ORD, SFO. I would not be surprised to see well over 50% of the seats on international flights from these cities are filled with connecting passengers. If this is the case, then connecting traffic is the primary reason why the flight exists, and not due to the city itself.

[Edited 2011-11-22 18:55:32]
 
Maverick623
Posts: 4722
Joined: Thu Nov 30, 2006 9:13 am

RE: International Airlines And PHX

Wed Nov 23, 2011 3:04 am

Quoting 777way (Reply 25):
PHX is Phoenix, PDX is the other city.

     

Found my new profile quote

Quoting flymia (Reply 30):
If US sees no market for a long haul from PHX with the huge feed it gets there is obviously not much of a market.

It's pretty obvious you don't really understand what "tourist" draw means. Hint: Americans, Canadian, and yes even Mexicans travel here also.

Also, you fail to realize the work and expense that would be needed for US to start up long-haul widebody service from PHX. Remember, the pilots are still not integrated and only East guys can fly the big birds. You can bet your bottom dollar if and when the fleets are integrated fully, you will see A330s based in PHX (of course, assuming the economy doesn't worsen any further).

Quoting wn676 (Reply 33):
I think US will make the next long haul move in PHX by launching service to London,

I think BA already serves it pretty well. As it usually is, though, you usually have more info than I do  
Quoting Adam727 (Reply 41):
Of couse I would love to see more 747s here in phx.

US doesn't have any.
"PHX is Phoenix, PDX is the other city" -777Way
 
acidradio
Posts: 1595
Joined: Mon Mar 12, 2001 3:19 pm

RE: International Airlines And PHX

Wed Nov 23, 2011 4:09 am

Folks, let's try and be a bit more civil here. There are a bunch of overly-argumentative posts in this thread. I could remove them but then much of this thread would fail to make sense. So... I will leave them in for now. It is one thing to debate but another to be argumentative. Thanks!
Ich haben zwei Platzspielen und ein Microphone
 
flymia
Posts: 7127
Joined: Thu Jun 14, 2001 6:33 am

RE: International Airlines And PHX

Wed Nov 23, 2011 4:13 am

My main point has been about PHX long haul. That is where I think it can be compared with PDX or SAN. Many of the statements in my previous post point to long haul flights.

As for other international destinations, PHX in air travel wins hands down. Many Canadians travel to Arizona and US has good amount of feed down to Mexico from the hub. SAN is a little disadvantage with LAX so close by of course.

I just do not believe there is a large market out of PHX for flights to Europe or Asia. Once US does get its labor issues in check it would not surprise me to see PHX-FRA or maybe even PHX-NRT with US finally getting into Asia. So to the OP:
PHX does not have much international long haul service because the market is not that large and the only airline that would possibly make the market work has labor problems preventing it from doing it.

[Edited 2011-11-22 20:19:18]
"It was just four of us on the flight deck, trying to do our job" (Captain Al Haynes)
 
EricR
Posts: 1226
Joined: Mon Jul 26, 2010 4:15 pm

RE: International Airlines And PHX

Wed Nov 23, 2011 5:35 pm

Quoting flymia (Reply 47):
PHX does not have much international long haul service because the market is not that large and the only airline that would possibly make the market work has labor problems preventing it from doing it.

And you believe a cities like MSP, DEN, CLT, DTW are large destinations for international travelers? Those cities are able to support more N/S overseas routes due to connections.

In fact, PHX has more "overseas" travelers (your key point - this excludes Canada & Mexico) than all of the aforementioned cities.

Furthermore, the state of Arizona ranks 13th in "overseas" travelers and has more "overseas" travelers than Washington (SEA), Colorado (DEN), North Carolina (CLT), Michigan (DTW), Minnesota (MSP), and about equal to that of Georgia (ATL)....all states/cities that have more N/S overseas flights than Arizona (PHX).

Connections play a sizable role in supporting the number of N/S international (overseas) destinations served by the states/cities listed above. PHX is not located in an ideal area to support connecting traffic and has to rely much more on O&D traffic than the other cities listed above.

Below is the source from the Office of Travel & Tourism - see page 3

http://tinet.ita.doc.gov/outreachpag...a_table/2010_States_and_Cities.pdf
 
BlatantEcho
Posts: 2132
Joined: Wed Sep 27, 2000 10:11 am

RE: International Airlines And PHX

Wed Nov 23, 2011 5:57 pm

Quoting EricR (Reply 44):

If you're going to go out of your way to make a big list to support your point, you might want to check your list for accuracy before you post it......

--
How this turned into a pissing match between SAN/PDX/PHX I'll never know.

I think the only future route possibly expected is US PHX-FRA.

The geographic nature of PHX doesn't lend it to much connecting traffic as other airports (same problem as SAN for the most part). It's not a slight on the state of Arizona that there aren't more long haul flights out of there.

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