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EMBQA
Posts: 7858
Joined: Sat Oct 25, 2003 3:52 am

RE: Plane Down Near PHX

Thu Nov 24, 2011 2:22 pm

Quoting ABQopsHP (Reply 49):

It would be very hard to do. Many turbo props use a single point connection...and when using the overwing, the jetA nozzle head is a different size then Avgas which would make it very hard to insert into the fill port. That.. plus the plane would be running like crap even before they taxied off the ramp....if it would even run at all.

[Edited 2011-11-24 06:24:47]
"It's not the size of the dog in the fight, but the size of the fight in the dog"
 
ak
Posts: 48
Joined: Sat May 27, 2006 3:10 pm

RE: Plane Down Near PHX

Thu Nov 24, 2011 2:44 pm

Quoting usxguy (Reply 47):

ak,

Is that just above Lost Dutchman Park, or am I on the wrong side of Apache Junction?

I've done a lot of backpacking thru the Superstitions and don't think I've ever seen much air traffic get close...

usxguy,
Its just to the north of Flatiron on the AJ side. Looking at the pics this morning on the news, it looks to have impacted directlt into the Hoo Doos. Once you reach the top of Siphon Draw you either go right to Flatiron of left over to the Hoo Doos.

A guy I used to hike with up there with knew the location of a T-38 out of Willie that went down in that same area back in late 70's. Never told me where it was because he knew the pilot that went in with it.

There are quite a few planes that have gone down in and around the Supes over the years both military and civilian. I've found a few old wrecks over the years and to see what is left after hitting a hillside or cliff is mind boggling.

[Edited 2011-11-24 06:58:11]

[Edited 2011-11-24 07:00:39]

[Edited 2011-11-24 07:03:03]

[Edited 2011-11-24 07:04:02]
" I am serious...and don't call me Shirley!
 
ak
Posts: 48
Joined: Sat May 27, 2006 3:10 pm

RE: Plane Down Near PHX

Thu Nov 24, 2011 4:29 pm

From the latest video it looks as though it was within 100' or less of missing the top.

Search & Rescue Resumes Plane Crash Investigation: MyFoxPHOENIX.com


Tragic.
" I am serious...and don't call me Shirley!
 
EMBQA
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Joined: Sat Oct 25, 2003 3:52 am

RE: Plane Down Near PHX

Thu Nov 24, 2011 4:43 pm

I've heard no further talk of an engine issue other then the inital report which almost always turn out to be incorrect.. Keep in mind this could be as simple as an incorrectly set altimeter.
"It's not the size of the dog in the fight, but the size of the fight in the dog"
 
Type-Rated
Posts: 3901
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RE: Plane Down Near PHX

Thu Nov 24, 2011 4:44 pm

Accidents like this are especially hard right around a holiday. It ruins the holiday for the surviving family forever.

This accident reminds me of the TW DC-3 that hit Mt. Potosi after taking off from LAS in 1941. Sooo close to missing the mountain all together. I think after remains removal they'll just leave it up there. It'd be too hard to remove it.

[Edited 2011-11-24 08:44:52]
Fly North Central Airlines..The route of the Northliners!
 
n6238p
Posts: 437
Joined: Fri Jan 27, 2006 5:35 am

RE: Plane Down Near PHX

Thu Nov 24, 2011 5:17 pm

Quoting ABQopsHP (Reply 49):
I thought about something last night as I was getting ready for bed. The Aero Commander and Turbo Commander look similar. Could it be that the a/c was fueled improperly? If the a/c had just been fueled, did someone put avgas instead of jet fuel in the tanks? When was the a/c serviced? I bring this up because, many FBO's are employed by young people just starting out in aviation, with limited training, could likely make this mistake. Thanks to anyone else who may shed some light on this.



Anything that runs on jet can use avgas in an emergency. It'll run quite a bit hotter but the engine can run. Jet into a piston plane on the other hand, not a good time.

Quoting EMBQA (Reply 50):
It would be very hard to do. Many turbo props use a single point connection...and when using the overwing, the jetA nozzle head is a different size then Avgas which would make it very hard to insert into the fill port. That.. plus the plane would be running like crap even before they taxied off the ramp....if it would even run at all.

Turbo commanders are not single point and all the tanks are interconnected. If one engine failed, more than likely the other should have as well if it was a fuel issue which in my previous post also covered a sort of misfueling.

Without jumping to any conclusions because I was not in the cockpit of this plane, I will only say whatever happened based on the initial details we know, this is a tragic accident that will more than likely fall under the ever popular category of human error.
To actively root against anybody is just low, and I hope karma comes back at you with a vengeance
 
dw747400
Posts: 1100
Joined: Wed Aug 15, 2001 8:24 am

RE: Plane Down Near PHX

Thu Nov 24, 2011 5:17 pm

Quoting EMBQA (Reply 50):

It would be very hard to do. Many turbo props use a single point connection...and when using the overwing, the jetA nozzle head is a different size then Avgas which would make it very hard to insert into the fill port.

A Twin Commander refuels overwing--no single point refueling. It would be hard to put a jet a nozzle into a 100LL port, but not the other way around. It is possible someone who is inexperienced and poorly trained--and used to fueling AvGas Twin Commanders (and perhaps PT6 powered aircraft associating turboprops with the prominent front exhaust) could make this mistake.

Quoting EMBQA (Reply 50):
That.. plus the plane would be running like crap even before they taxied off the ramp....if it would even run at all.

I believe the TPE331 is approved for limited 100LL operations (like the PT6). I don't know any details about it (never flown the TPE331) and there may be some operational restrictions (I recall in some installations of the PT6 pumps need to be on to ensure sufficient fuel pressure). Thus I'm not sure if incorrect fueling could have contributed to the accident.
CFI--Certfied Freakin Idiot
 
canoecarrier
Posts: 2573
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RE: Plane Down Near PHX

Thu Nov 24, 2011 5:40 pm

Quoting type-rated (Reply 48):
Those Aero Commanders can be a handful on one engine, especially in terrain. To tell you the truth, I never liked them much.

Why would you say that? Aero Commanders are known to be very stable on one engine. When they certified the 500 they completed the whole flight from Oklahoma to Virginia with one of the props in the cabin to show how safe they were on one engine.

If this is a 690 A or B it's the turboprop version.
The beatings will continue until morale improves
 
D L X
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RE: Plane Down Near PHX

Thu Nov 24, 2011 6:44 pm

Quoting dampfnudel (Reply 27):
Maybe I'm wrong, but that second explosion looked too big to be from a small non-commercial aircraft.

I don't think that's a secondary explosion. I think there's one explosion that rose like a mushroom cloud. The crash was below the peak, so the actual fireball is not visible at first. Rather, the first bright light you see is the reflection of the explosion off neighboring surfaces of the mountain. The second, brighter light, is the light of the fireball as it rose above the mountain, and into view.


Tragic.
 
N747PE
Posts: 82
Joined: Sat Jul 16, 2005 9:47 pm

RE: Plane Down Near PHX

Thu Nov 24, 2011 7:44 pm

Guys the plane was a Turbo Commander. They only run on Jet A. My family knew the pilot and three kids all prayers for the family gratefully received.
 
micstatic
Posts: 764
Joined: Fri Jul 20, 2001 10:07 pm

RE: Plane Down Near PHX

Thu Nov 24, 2011 7:57 pm

Thoughts and prayers to the deceased. Has anybody confirmed they were VFR?
S340,DH8,AT7,CR2/7,E135/45/170/190,319,320,717,732,733,734,735,737,738,744,752,762,763,764,772,M80,M90
 
Type-Rated
Posts: 3901
Joined: Sun Sep 19, 1999 5:18 am

RE: Plane Down Near PHX

Thu Nov 24, 2011 9:01 pm

Quoting canoecarrier (Reply 57):
Aero Commanders are known to be very stable on one engine. When they certified the 500 they completed the whole flight from Oklahoma to Virginia with one of the props in the cabin to show how safe they were on one engine.

My experience with a 560 was that on one engine you needed full opposite rudder to hold it straight, and it just BARELY held altitude. A climb at altitude (10,000ft) would have been out of the question in that aircraft.
You know the saying, the manuals are written for an aircraft new out of the factory and with age......

The Turbo or Shrike Commanders are another story....
Fly North Central Airlines..The route of the Northliners!
 
sandyb123
Posts: 964
Joined: Mon Oct 15, 2007 9:29 pm

RE: Plane Down Near PHX

Thu Nov 24, 2011 9:44 pm

Quoting micstatic (Reply 60):
Has anybody confirmed they were VFR

Looks like this happened at night? If so it will have been IFR.

RIP to all onboard.

Sandyb123
Member of the mile high club
 
cerretaman
Posts: 73
Joined: Thu Jul 21, 2005 3:08 am

RE: Plane Down Near PHX

Thu Nov 24, 2011 9:53 pm

Quoting sandyb123 (Reply 62):

Why would it have to be ifr at night? Night vfr flights are normal.
u mad cause i'm stylin' on you?
 
sandyb123
Posts: 964
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RE: Plane Down Near PHX

Thu Nov 24, 2011 10:05 pm

Sorry I thought all night flights are IFR?

Sandyb123
Member of the mile high club
 
cerretaman
Posts: 73
Joined: Thu Jul 21, 2005 3:08 am

RE: Plane Down Near PHX

Thu Nov 24, 2011 10:14 pm

Nope, night vfr flights are very common. Almost all of my night time has been vfr cross-country.
u mad cause i'm stylin' on you?
 
AR385
Posts: 6935
Joined: Fri Nov 07, 2003 8:25 am

RE: Plane Down Near PHX

Thu Nov 24, 2011 10:47 pm

Quoting sandyb123 (Reply 64):
Sorry I thought all night flights are IFR?

Not in the US. I don´t know about other countries but in Mexico Night VFR is prohibited.
 
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SEPilot
Posts: 5614
Joined: Sat Dec 30, 2006 10:21 pm

RE: Plane Down Near PHX

Thu Nov 24, 2011 11:57 pm

Quoting canoecarrier (Reply 57):

If this is a 690 A or B it's the turboprop version.
Quoting sandyb123 (Reply 64):
Sorry I thought all night flights are IFR?

Sandyb123

In the US rules are a lot more lenient than most countries; night VFR being one example. Another is VFR on top, which is legal in the US but not in Canada. There is a lot in the US that is legal but requires good judgment to be safe. But I suspect that anyone who is insurable to fly a twin turboprop will be instrument rated. Insurance requirements are much more stringent in the US than legal requirements.
The problem with making things foolproof is that fools are so doggone ingenious...Dan Keebler
 
DiamondFlyer
Posts: 3352
Joined: Wed Oct 29, 2008 11:50 pm

RE: Plane Down Near PHX

Fri Nov 25, 2011 12:20 am

Quoting SEPilot (Reply 67):
But I suspect that anyone who is insurable to fly a twin turboprop will be instrument rated. Insurance requirements are much more stringent in the US than legal requirements.

But that assumes that there was insurance on the airplane, which isn't required either.

-DiamondFlyer
From my cold, dead hands
 
N747PE
Posts: 82
Joined: Sat Jul 16, 2005 9:47 pm

RE: Plane Down Near PHX

Fri Nov 25, 2011 1:19 am

The pilot in question had an ATP and was employed as a captain for Skywest before he became part owner in Ponderosa.
 
freakyrat
Posts: 1959
Joined: Fri Aug 22, 2008 1:04 pm

RE: Plane Down Near PHX

Fri Nov 25, 2011 4:44 am

While at work today I plotted the flight out on SkyVector. Several scenarios come to mind. The floor of the PHX Class B airspace at FFZ (Falcon Field is 5,000 feet. The mountain that the acft. hit is approx. 5,089 feet MSL. and located a little under 15 nm east of FFZ Allegiant Air had a large amount of Arrivals and Departures at Williams Gateway (to the South of FFZ) last night at about the same time. Last night did not have enough moon illumination. My own thoughts are that because of a lot of PHX and IWA traffic he departed east and wanted to stay under the Class B airspace and not conflict with all the Allegiant traffic at IWA by turning southeast from FFZ. The mountain in question is just on the edge of the Class B airspace. Several what if's would have broken the chain that led to this accident. If the pilot would have filed IFR regardless of traffic he would have never got close to the mountain. If the moon illumination was brighter he may have seen it in time to avoid it. If he would have turned southeast and not worried about IWA traffic he would have missed the mountain. My guess is he forgot that the mountain was there and when he came up on it while trying to stay under the class B airspace and avoid the Williams Gateway traffic it surprised him and it was to late with the closure speed of this acft. to avoid it.

This was a truly sad event and the pilot and his family were heavily involved in Aviation. My prayers go out to the family and friends.
 
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SEPilot
Posts: 5614
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RE: Plane Down Near PHX

Fri Nov 25, 2011 9:54 pm

Quoting DiamondFlyer (Reply 68):

But that assumes that there was insurance on the airplane, which isn't required either.

No, it isn't; but this plane was owned by a Part 135 operator, which DOES require insurance.
The problem with making things foolproof is that fools are so doggone ingenious...Dan Keebler
 
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usxguy
Posts: 1857
Joined: Wed Jan 25, 2006 1:28 pm

RE: Plane Down Near PHX

Fri Nov 25, 2011 11:18 pm

plus almost every airport requires insurance if you park the plane there....
xx
 
Maverick623
Posts: 4722
Joined: Thu Nov 30, 2006 9:13 am

RE: Plane Down Near PHX

Sat Nov 26, 2011 1:13 am

Quoting N747PE (Reply 69):
The pilot in question had an ATP and was employed as a captain for Skywest before he became part owner in Ponderosa.

The pilot of the accident aircraft had been with HP/US since 1999.
"PHX is Phoenix, PDX is the other city" -777Way
 
26point2
Posts: 1097
Joined: Wed Mar 03, 2010 6:01 am

RE: Plane Down Near PHX

Sat Nov 26, 2011 1:20 am

Quoting type-rated (Reply 61):
The Turbo or Shrike Commanders are another story....

I have over 1500 hours flying the AC690 series and can say that it has very good single engine handling and performance characteristics if flown by a competent and properly trained pilot. Good single engine climb rates and plenty of rudder authority. This is a high performance turboprop.

However, like many types the Turbo Commander has its quirks and is not very forgiving if flown carelessly. Of course we know nothing of the pilot's ability at this point. Very sad story and thoughts go out to all those impacted by the tragedy.
 
canoecarrier
Posts: 2573
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RE: Plane Down Near PHX

Sat Nov 26, 2011 3:20 am

The news reported today that the mother of the three children that were on the flight is a FA for DL. I can't imagine what she's going through right now.
The beatings will continue until morale improves
 
Type-Rated
Posts: 3901
Joined: Sun Sep 19, 1999 5:18 am

RE: Plane Down Near PHX

Sat Nov 26, 2011 10:58 pm

That's what I meant by my comment "The Turbo or Shrike Commanders are another story....". They handle differently mainly due to the much more powerful engines. Remember that guy who used to go around doing low level barrel rolls over the runway at air shows in a Shrike Commander with both engines shut down?

I am sure that the Turbo and Shrike Commanders are much more capable airplanes than the 560 I flew.
Fly North Central Airlines..The route of the Northliners!
 
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EA CO AS
Posts: 15697
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RE: Plane Down Near PHX

Sat Nov 26, 2011 11:33 pm

This was an aviation family all the way - mom (not onboard, thankfully) is a Delta flight attendant.
"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan

Comments made here are my own and are not intended to represent the official position of Alaska Air Group
 
26point2
Posts: 1097
Joined: Wed Mar 03, 2010 6:01 am

RE: Plane Down Near PHX

Sun Nov 27, 2011 4:17 am

Quoting type-rated (Reply 76):
Remember that guy who used to go around doing low level barrel rolls over the runway at air shows in a Shrike Commander with both engines shut down?

Yes, you are right about the 500 series vs. the 690 series. Worlds apart.

Bob Hoover was that guy. He used to do an airshow performance in a Sabreliner bizjet also...and a P-51...and other stuff.
 
delta2ual
Posts: 559
Joined: Mon Dec 03, 2007 11:18 pm

RE: Plane Down Near PHX

Sun Nov 27, 2011 4:50 pm

Yes, all of my DL friends on Facebook are saying the mother is a DL flight attendant based at LAX. They have started a collection for her. If I can find out how to donate I will post it here for anybody who would like to give a little something. On another note, a very well-liked DL FA supervisor from JFK passed away unexpectedly yesterday. Very tough week for the DL family. My heart goes out to all who have lost someone.
From the world's largest airline-to the world's largest airline. Delta2ual
 
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NWAESC
Posts: 1480
Joined: Thu Aug 30, 2007 1:02 pm

RE: Plane Down Near PHX

Sun Nov 27, 2011 5:06 pm

Here's a Paypal link that has been set up: https://www.paypal.com/us/cgi-bin/webscr?cmd=_flow&SESSION=SmxKc03XD-BH3Oq8ET3cuIcfEsR9m5MZcaePcF-PSTk6x6Kdf0K8GdwzqAu&dispatch=5885d80a13c0db1f8e263663d3faee8db2b24f7b84f1819343fd6c338b1d9d60

This one apparently is matching 25% of any donations made: http://www.ladiesdayfund.com/contact.html

Facebook page with some more info for donations: https://www.facebook.com/pages/Perry-Family-Memorial/290305614343592

Also, not sure how it works for IFS, but I imagine there's a way for employes to donate vacation time should they choose to. Maybe trip coverage as well?
"Nothing ever happens here, " I said. "I just wait."

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