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SKAirbus
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British Airways - No More A319s At LGW?

Fri Nov 25, 2011 2:10 pm

I was just looking at flightstats.com and all the arrivals and departures of BA aircraft into and out of Gatwick and it appears that only two types are operating:

Boeing 737-400 (Short haul routes)
Boeing 777-200 (Long haul routes)

I thought that BA had moved a number of A319s to LGW to start replacing older aircraft whilst beefing up the LHR fleet with newly delivered A320s.

Personally I would have thought the A319s were too small for LHR operations and that it would be better to have a fleet like this:

A320/A321/B767 on short haul routes from LHR

A319 on short haul routes from LGW replacing 737-400s

Can anyone shed some light on this? Have they moved all the Airbus aircraft back to LHR? When will the 737-400s be replaced?
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McG1967
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RE: British Airways - No More A319s At LGW?

Fri Nov 25, 2011 2:14 pm

A small number of A319 were moved to LGW for the summer schedule I believe.
 
Auchmithie
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RE: British Airways - No More A319s At LGW?

Fri Nov 25, 2011 2:17 pm

29th October 2011 - Gatwick Summer 319s Head Home to Heathrow.
Airbus A319s G-EUOB and G-EUOE positioned London Gatwick - London Heathrow as BA9251 and BA9250 respectively this evening as the summer timetable comes to a close.

Source: http://thebasource.com/october2011.html
 
avi8
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RE: British Airways - No More A319s At LGW?

Fri Nov 25, 2011 2:32 pm

I may be mistaken, but I thought British Airways didn't have any short haul airplanes on order. So how will they replace the A319's and move them to LGW?
avi8
 
AIR MALTA
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RE: British Airways - No More A319s At LGW?

Fri Nov 25, 2011 2:35 pm

Quoting SKAirbus (Thread starter):
A320/A321/B767 on short haul routes from LHR

A319 on short haul routes from LGW replacing 737-400s

The A319 was only used in Summer. The A319 might be small for some routes such as AGP or FAO. Now that LGW is no longer growing its shorthaul programm the A319 won't be seen there. Moreover BA has purchased 6 slots pairs that are mainly used for shorthaul. The would need every single A319 there to match the increased capacity.
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laca773
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RE: British Airways - No More A319s At LGW?

Fri Nov 25, 2011 3:34 pm

Quoting AIR MALTA (Reply 4):
The A319 was only used in Summer. The A319 might be small for some routes such as AGP or FAO. Now that LGW is no longer growing its shorthaul programm the A319 won't be seen there. Moreover BA has purchased 6 slots pairs that are mainly used for shorthaul. The would need every single A319 there to match the increased capacity.

Well obviously BA is not going to keep the 734s for ever. What are they going to replace them with? A mix of A319/A320s?
 
skipness1E
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RE: British Airways - No More A319s At LGW?

Fri Nov 25, 2011 3:40 pm

Quoting SKAirbus (Thread starter):
Personally I would have thought the A319s were too small for LHR operations and that it would be better to have a fleet like this:

A320/A321/B767 on short haul routes from LHR

This was the failed Bob Ayling strategy to have nothing smaller than the B757 out of LHR. It was reversed as losses mounted, the A319 is a very good fit for LHR, which is why they have so many and comparably fewer A321s, with the B757s all gone. The B763s are way too big for some of the routes they fly on but are redeemed by lugging a fair amount of cargo on some flights on some routes.

Remember it's all about frequency on some routes, no point in having 7 daily to JFK is you've only got two flights a day feeding it from a major market. By way of comparison, look at the routes from LGW that died as soon as the B735 and the B733 were withdrawn. LGW's leisure business model means the flying program is not nearly as intensive in the winter, so the four added A319s returned to LHR. There will be Airbuses based at Gatters in the summer, partly as the B734 fleets is a little, tired?
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babybus
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RE: British Airways - No More A319s At LGW?

Fri Nov 25, 2011 4:19 pm

Quoting skipness1E (Reply 6):
look at the routes from LGW that died as soon as the B735 and the B733 were withdrawn.

Which routes are are thinking of?

Maybe the route was dead hence they withdrew the 737? A viable route will always find an aircraft.

I flew FCO-LGW with BA in March this year. Fantastic flight with a great crew. The 737, however, felt so old it could have been a de Havilland Comet.
and with that..cabin crew, seats for landing please.
 
skipness1E
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RE: British Airways - No More A319s At LGW?

Fri Nov 25, 2011 4:35 pm

Quoting Babybus (Reply 7):
Which routes are are thinking of?

Maybe the route was dead hence they withdrew the 737? A viable route will always find an aircraft

A viable route may need some TLC to be caoxed into profit, go the wrong way and losses mount.

The domestics were cut in frequency and MAN continues to be cut, NCL was dropped completely when the B735s went. Some routes require frequency to be any use for business which meant the B734 was flying too many empty seats and fresh air far too often. Given so much of LGW short haul is borderline loss making, there's almost no business case for capital investment in new, more suitable aircraft. Look what the introduction of the ERJ did at LCY as compared to the Avro RJs.
The decision to focus LGW on leisure routes means that there was no impetus to replace the smaller B737s when their leases were up. It's a vicious circle as BA LGW has contracted YoY every year since I moved to London in 2005 ! The removal of the night stopping MAN-LGW will also kill yields as the early business traveller now has to use LHR or more likely get the train.

[Edited 2011-11-25 08:36:43]

With LUX finally finding space at LGW, there are very few main European business routes out of LGW, AMS and FCO remain along side the domestics and Jersey.


[Edited 2011-11-25 08:38:18]
 
vv701
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RE: British Airways - No More A319s At LGW?

Fri Nov 25, 2011 4:44 pm

Quoting avi8 (Reply 3):
I may be mistaken, but I thought British Airways didn't have any short haul airplanes on order.

BA have a single 320 on order in their own name. It is scheduled for delivery in January 2012 and is to be registered G-EUYN.

Additionally IAG has announced that five 320s on firm order for IB will be sold to BA on delivery.

BA also has options on up to 30 32x aircraft.

Finally if IAG buy BD and merge it with BA, then BA will have access to the three 320s and single 321 owned by BD and also to their eleven 319s, six 321s and four 320s that BD currently operate on lease.
 
shankly
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RE: British Airways - No More A319s At LGW?

Fri Nov 25, 2011 5:19 pm

Quoting Babybus (Reply 7):
The 737, however, felt so old it could have been a de Havilland


Flew VCE-LGW on DOCW a few weeks ago (boy have I been on that trusty old 737 many times over the years) and again realised why BA keep them running, as they do a bloody good and effective job on those 90/120mins Euro runs

Agree, not as nice as the 319's, but definitely a little quieter than a Comet!
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Vasu
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RE: British Airways - No More A319s At LGW?

Fri Nov 25, 2011 5:30 pm

So does anyone know what the long-term plan is for the Gatwick fleet? Any ideas when the 734s will be gone?
 
kaitak
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RE: British Airways - No More A319s At LGW?

Fri Nov 25, 2011 5:33 pm

Quoting skipness1E (Reply 8):
Given so much of LGW short haul is borderline loss making, there's almost no business case for capital investment in new, more suitable aircraft

I'm not surprised at this. However, I wonder if a change in policy by LGW's new owners will help it to become a more business friendly airport; it's almost counter-intuitive that it isn't, because you would think that an airport pretty close to the stockbroker belt would be far more attractive to business travellers than LHR. Perhaps a faster rail link might help too?

Ultimately, however, I see BA moving more Business traffic to LCY, which only serves to undermine the business case for many routes. Ultimately, I think that we will either see no BA short haul - or a much smaller short haul (perhaps operated by BE) out of LGW.

Quoting skipness1E (Reply 8):
Look what the introduction of the ERJ did at LCY as compared to the Avro RJs.

I can vouch for this in relation to BE as well; the old 146s were hated; the 195s are much liked and admired. Whoever says aircraft type does not matter should look at this as proof!
 
QFA380SYD
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RE: British Airways - No More A319s At LGW?

Sat Nov 26, 2011 7:34 am

I believe A319 are based in London City Airport and Heathrow
 
Speedbird2155
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RE: British Airways - No More A319s At LGW?

Sat Nov 26, 2011 8:54 am

Quoting QFA380SYD (Reply 13):
I believe A319 are based in London City Airport and Heathrow

BA has no A319s at LCY. you are thinking of the 2 A318s that operate Club World London City services.
 
skipness1E
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RE: British Airways - No More A319s At LGW?

Sat Nov 26, 2011 10:28 am

Which have a LHR flight crew and a LGW cabin crew....
 
APYu
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RE: British Airways - No More A319s At LGW?

Sat Nov 26, 2011 10:44 am

Quoting Vasu (Reply 11):

The dates for the 737's departure will probably announced at the same ime as the fleet renewal plan. Then you will know not only when they are going, but what they are being replaced with.
We'd like to welcome in particular our Executive Club members and those joining us from our Oneworld alliance partners.
 
Bongodog1964
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RE: British Airways - No More A319s At LGW?

Sat Nov 26, 2011 10:53 am

Then recent IAG presentation showed an increase in the A320 series fleet of 11 by 2015, so thats the one on order for BA, the 5 on order for IB plus another 5.

It then showed a reduction of 5 in the combined fleet of short haul 763, 734, E170 & E190. Its unlikely any of the E series will be departing, so the reductions will come from either the 734's or 763's. It also shows one long haul 763 remaining in 2015 which seems to show that the long haul 763's are going before the short haul ones. Whatever, it looks as if a minimum of 14 of the 734's will still be at LGW in 4 years time, so don't expect to see too many 319's for a few years.
 
SKAirbus
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RE: British Airways - No More A319s At LGW?

Sat Nov 26, 2011 10:54 am

Quoting APYu (Reply 16):
The dates for the 737's departure will probably announced at the same ime as the fleet renewal plan. Then you will know not only when they are going, but what they are being replaced with.

I imagine they will go for A319s or A320s possible NEOs. Will keep the costs down due to commonality and then the entire LGW fleet can be serviced by mixed LGW and LHR flight crews.
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skipness1E
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RE: British Airways - No More A319s At LGW?

Sat Nov 26, 2011 11:28 am

Why would they fund a replacement? LGW has gotten smaller on short haul every year since 2005. Buying new A320s to continue these losses is a strange idea! Why do you think renewal has been pushed back three times? It makes no commercial sense to keep getting kneed in the head by easyJet who charge more and who have a lower cost base. The B734s are being kept until end of life, I think they announced the date as 2014 but I would need to check. Was announced when they bought some upgrades for the engines.

[Edited 2011-11-26 03:31:47]
 
767eng
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RE: British Airways - No More A319s At LGW?

Sat Nov 26, 2011 12:10 pm

skipness is spot on, the 737 fleet is the most cost effective way of running Gatwick. They've got plenty of life left in them so why go to the expense of replacing them with new A319s?
 
bevisisback
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RE: British Airways - No More A319s At LGW?

Sat Nov 26, 2011 12:21 pm

I suppose it begs the question, why bother continuing ops at LGW if its borderline loss making? To save face?
 
vv701
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RE: British Airways - No More A319s At LGW?

Sat Nov 26, 2011 1:17 pm

Quoting bevisisback (Reply 21):
I suppose it begs the question, why bother continuing ops at LGW if its borderline loss making?

Additionally to its fleet of 734s it is worth remembering that BA operate a sub-fleet of eight 772s out of LGW. These are all operated to holiday destinations. A significant number of their passengers are travelling as part of a British Airways Holidays package deal.

Last time BA commented on its Holiday business (a couple of years back if memory serves me) it reported it as a successful business that it planned to expand. Since that comment both the number of long haul destinations served from LGW and the fleet of based 772s has been increased. (The fleet growth was enabled by the delivery of one of BA's new 77Ws to its Main Fleet at LHR.)

How much domestic and international feed this business obtains through its LGW based short hauil operations is not known. But if the BA short haul business at LGW is, as many suggest, marginal, the total BA business at LGW may well be a useful adjunct to the airline's profitability.

Apart from the absolute profit considerations there are other important considerations, like the slot situation at LHR. Here, as an example, consider what happened when the North Atlantic Open Skies agreement came into force. Other airlines immediately moved their services, like DL's old ATL-LGW flight, to LHR. So it could respond competitively BA moved all three of its daily LHR-PRG flights for the whole of that Summer Season from LHR to LGW. This created the spare LHR slots for trans-Atlantic flights.

We may well see this flexibility that could be key to the successful performance of BA operating again in the near future but in the reverse direction. If IAG buy BD and if they integrate BD into BA we might see BA immediately close the most unprofitable BD flights from LHR. However they would need to protect the LHR slots freed up (from the "use it ot loose it" rule). Until they had obtained the necessary equipment and/or route authorisation for their new LHR operations they could move existing LGW flights to LHR to "slot sit".
 
APYu
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RE: British Airways - No More A319s At LGW?

Sat Nov 26, 2011 2:08 pm

My vote is for Embraers. On too many routes outside of the key travel periods the 737 and the airbus are a bit too big for Gatwick.

But as others have said, the fleet replacement has been delayed so many times then it's obvious they are in no rush.
We'd like to welcome in particular our Executive Club members and those joining us from our Oneworld alliance partners.
 
skipness1E
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RE: British Airways - No More A319s At LGW?

Sat Nov 26, 2011 3:49 pm

There is some domestic feed onto holiday flights but only before noon, there is a good case for code sharing if say flybe wanted to step in and operate ERJ190s on GLA and EDI, joining NCL, INV and ABZ, all dropped by BA and BRT since 2005. Deploying the ERJs on a wholly leisure basis from LGW may not work. Remember they have a duopoly on holiday routes at LCY with WX and most ERJ routes are business heavy. Not the case at LGW against Fortress Orange.
The long haul fleet is still down from / on a par with early 2008 when DFW and the twice daily IAH moved to LHR, indeed SSH was dropped and MBJ is ending.
 
deltapapa
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RE: British Airways - No More A319s At LGW?

Sun Nov 27, 2011 6:48 pm

Should the BD acquisition be successful, BA may choose to consolidate further on closing LGW as a operating base and move all services from there to LHR!
 
APYu
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RE: British Airways - No More A319s At LGW?

Sun Nov 27, 2011 7:55 pm

Quoting DELTAPAPA (Reply 25):

Should the BD acquisition be successful, BA may choose to consolidate further on closing LGW as a operating base and move all services from there to LHR!


Or they may choose to use the BMI Brand to make the LGW operation evenmore standalone under a new BMI name
We'd like to welcome in particular our Executive Club members and those joining us from our Oneworld alliance partners.
 
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Vasu
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RE: British Airways - No More A319s At LGW?

Sun Nov 27, 2011 8:39 pm

Quoting APYu (Reply 26):
Or they may choose to use the BMI Brand to make the LGW operation evenmore standalone under a new BMI name

Interesting possibility...
 
aerokiwi
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RE: British Airways - No More A319s At LGW?

Sun Nov 27, 2011 9:18 pm

Quoting kaitak (Reply 12):
I can vouch for this in relation to BE as well; the old 146s were hated; the 195s are much liked and admired. Whoever says aircraft type does not matter should look at this as proof!

But isn't that because the Avros were crammed with 6 abreast seating? In 5-abreast, they were perfectly comfortable.
 
Viscount724
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RE: British Airways - No More A319s At LGW?

Sun Nov 27, 2011 11:19 pm

Quoting aerokiwi (Reply 28):
Quoting kaitak (Reply 12):
I can vouch for this in relation to BE as well; the old 146s were hated; the 195s are much liked and admired. Whoever says aircraft type does not matter should look at this as proof!

But isn't that because the Avros were crammed with 6 abreast seating? In 5-abreast, they were perfectly comfortable.

At 5-abreast (like LX and SN) the Avro RJ/146 is hard to beat. At 6-abreast, like most other European operators (e.g. AF Cityjet and LH Regional) they´re horrible and best avoided.
 
skipness1E
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RE: British Airways - No More A319s At LGW?

Sun Nov 27, 2011 11:52 pm

Why in Heavens name would you move loss making BMI to Gatwick? Are they a legend in leisure holidays? No. Is their cost base markedly lower than BA Gatwick? No. Do any of the staff live near enough to commute? The BMI brand is value less to BA, please be realistic. Depending on the lease rates on the A320 series aircraft, BA may use some at LGW but under a BA banner.
 
LX138
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RE: British Airways - No More A319s At LGW?

Mon Nov 28, 2011 11:27 am

Quoting skipness1E (Reply 30):
Why in Heavens name would you move loss making BMI to Gatwick?

It's not actually that bad a proposal. If it somehow kept the BMI brand alive then I'm for it! I think if BA could run a different short-haul, but BA aligned brand at LGW, together bringing with it much lower operating costs (including staff ones) then they would do it.

Quoting skipness1E (Reply 30):
Are they a legend in leisure holidays? No.

But it seems they are these days, as all the business people have switched to BA!

Although there is no strong case to replace the 734's at LGW - they DO need replacing one day!

skipness1E - your comments on here are usually far too practical for this forum and often with a good business case. Have you thought about applying for a airline yield management role or something?  
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richardw
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RE: British Airways - No More A319s At LGW?

Mon Nov 28, 2011 11:45 am

Perhaps the BD brand would only survive if the regulators say certain routes have to be retained as a condition of the takeover by IAG, such as Heathrow-Moscow, Heathrow-Berlin and VS did not want to operate them, moving the brand to LGW isn't very logical.

The B734s will go eventually and we probably will see Airbus narrow bodies instead, not sure if they will be in BA liveries though.
 
qf002
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RE: British Airways - No More A319s At LGW?

Mon Nov 28, 2011 12:00 pm

Quoting richardw (Reply 32):
The B734s will go eventually and we probably will see Airbus narrow bodies instead, not sure if they will be in BA liveries though.

Agreed. The most successful method of fighting LCC is with a LCC of your own. Creating a new LCC brand at LGW could be how BA increases their profitability...
 
skipness1E
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RE: British Airways - No More A319s At LGW?

Mon Nov 28, 2011 12:17 pm

I am an aviation enthusiast and spotter first, bear that in mind before you read the next bit.

BMI is worthless as brand. It lacks a clear national identity like LH, OS or LX. It is remembered fondly as being better than BA and standing up to a shoddy nationalised carrier. However that's no longer the case. BMI as a brand have little market presence, the colour scheme is very pretty but that's not really what we need. Wind it up, save some staff and move on with BA being rebuilt as a quality brand. It's not realistic to expect BMI to have a lower cost base than BA LGW, given the somewhat steep losses we have seen from LH's reports.

Quoting qf002 (Reply 33):
Agreed. The most successful method of fighting LCC is with a LCC of your own. Creating a new LCC brand at LGW could be how BA increases their profitability..

Dear me, come to Gatwick and see how far you'd get. How have the good reasons for dropping GO been answered or changed? easyJet still competes against BA but they have found their own niches in the market. In the real world, you would have a manager at BA's low cost arm going after the traffic on BA full cost to poach high yield business. It leads to a corporate schizophrenia, a horrible unhealthy position. In no way would adding to the UK loco market make BA more profitable. They already have two core brands that need managing well to achieve merger synergies in Iberia and British Airways, add in Vueling and it's already a little more complex than you'd like. Further add in Iberia Express, (pause to list the many many failed airlines with WellKnown Airways Express as a title). not a good plan, besides Gatwick has no room for a second based loco unless you wind up BA LGW. This would be a declaration of war on easyJet who would surely take the strongest possible measures to protect their most important base and largest base. In short, in the short to medium term, particularly in these trading conditions, it would lose quite a lot of money that would be better spent investing in the core product which is turning the corner again.

[Edited 2011-11-28 04:19:17]
 
skipness1E
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RE: British Airways - No More A319s At LGW?

Mon Nov 28, 2011 12:26 pm

Quoting LX138 (Reply 31):
Quoting skipness1E (Reply 30):
Why in Heavens name would you move loss making BMI to Gatwick?

It's not actually that bad a proposal. If it somehow kept the BMI brand alive then I'm for it! I think if BA could run a different short-haul, but BA aligned brand at LGW, together bringing with it much lower operating costs (including staff ones) then they would do it

No, it's a very bad proposal! Really, really bad idea 
Take off a plaster slowly over time and scream for hours or rip it off, have one moment of pain and be done with it? BMI had their time in the sun but you can't turn that operation around now, it's too late. It would cost many millions that would be better spent elsewhere to save a brand that is badly diluted and confused. Sentiment will get you killed in business unless you have a good business case to back it up and make you money. There is no link with LGW beyond the odd charter in the winter of late, no market presence, loyalty or brand awareness. Look what happened to the last well known LHR airline that pitched up promising what you're suggesting. Aer Lingus lost how much on the LGW base? It is of course now being wound up, it never had a chance from Day One, neither does "BMI" at Gatters.
 
qf002
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RE: British Airways - No More A319s At LGW?

Mon Nov 28, 2011 1:20 pm

Quoting skipness1E (Reply 34):
you would have a manager at BA's low cost arm going after the traffic on BA full cost to poach high yield business.

Not necessarily. Much of BA's traffic either aren't interested in flying into LGW or are connecting to long haul out of LHR. High yield business traffic that has stuck by BA thus far in the face of the dozens of new competitors isn't going to suddenly jump to a LCC now. QF has well demonstrated that the high yielding business traffic doesn't have to suffer at the hand of a LCC (look at how strong their frequency/fares are on SYD-MEL-SYD even with the entry of JQ to the route over the past 5 years). It's about covering more of the market.

Quoting skipness1E (Reply 34):
In no way would adding to the UK loco market make BA more profitable

Why not? If they can retain their current market out of LHR and add to that a stronger and more profitable operation out of LGW then why wouldn't they make more money in the long run?

Quoting skipness1E (Reply 34):
besides Gatwick has no room for a second based loco unless you wind up BA LGW.

Which I would suggest would be necessary anyway. Relaunch BA at LGW as a brand new airline with A319's/A320's and a totally unique identity, connecting to continuing long haul BA leisure flights.

Quoting skipness1E (Reply 34):
This would be a declaration of war on easyJet who would surely take the strongest possible measures to protect their most important base and largest base.

So?

Quoting skipness1E (Reply 34):
n short, in the short to medium term, particularly in these trading conditions, it would lose quite a lot of money that would be better spent investing in the core product which is turning the corner again.

Obviously this couldn't realistically take place for a good few years, and by then market conditions will have changed. In the long run, I believe that a dual brand operation could be significantly more profitable for BA. I don't know, I just think it's a strategy that should be investigated. Investing in the core product is no use if it doesn't make them any more profitable, and I don't see any reason why replacing the 734's with A320's would make any difference at all, besides lowering baseline costs.

[Edited 2011-11-28 05:21:27]
 
skipness1E
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RE: British Airways - No More A319s At LGW?

Mon Nov 28, 2011 1:52 pm

Quoting qf002 (Reply 36):
Why not? If they can retain their current market out of LHR and add to that a stronger and more profitable operation out of LGW then why wouldn't they make more money in the long run?

With respect, I did give reasons in my post. There is a lot of P2P traffic at BA that they would go after, this is what GO did.

Quoting qf002 (Reply 36):
Which I would suggest would be necessary anyway. Relaunch BA at LGW as a brand new airline with A319's/A320's and a totally unique identity, connecting to continuing long haul BA leisure flights

This is illogical and contradictory. Feeding is not all that profitable, ask BMI, that's why they lost millions. BA long haul stops flying after lunch most days so you're not feeding anything beyond the first wave and also, a "brand new airline" is costly. Would TUPE be in effect? Yes, so NOT a brand new airline then. Is BA an iconic brand? Yes, so why on Earth would you rebrand it as BMI?. Which one is the stronger brand? BA. If you have to feed, then why are you changing the name of the short haul operation to something the public won't recognise as BA?. I assume you want to transfer over all BA staff at LGW onto cheaper contracts? If not, then what's the value in changing? This is a fantasy scenario with no synergies only additional cost and complexities. What's the upside???

With respect, the UK is not Australia and Europe is not the Pacific, whilst there are similarities, in this particular case, there is no cost or brand benefit whatsoever to what you are suggesting. Also given BA have been through the wringer of late with BASSA, they are not likely to shaft their loyal LGW staff by making them work for someone other than BA in the middle of a brand campaign extolling the virtues of BA's longevity and traditions. It would be absolute carnage on the staffing front and we don't want BA to turn into the two faced hydra like QANTAS and Jetstar. I see that's working really well as the whole mainline QANTAS fleet just loves what's happening to their careers, promotion potential and rourte network. BA is nowhere near as far gone as QF that they need to embark on such ham fisted and desperate measures.

[Edited 2011-11-28 05:52:48]

[Edited 2011-11-28 05:53:35]
 
skipness1E
Posts: 4862
Joined: Sun Aug 19, 2007 9:18 am

RE: British Airways - No More A319s At LGW?

Mon Nov 28, 2011 1:58 pm

Quoting qf002 (Reply 36):
Quoting skipness1E (Reply 34):
This would be a declaration of war on easyJet who would surely take the strongest possible measures to protect their most important base and largest base.

So?

Are you kidding? There would only be one winner, really there would. easyJet would destroy BA if they were minded to do so at LGW, in the same way BA used to in their own dominant markets. Look at what happened when EZY or GO went head to head with FR in Ireland. They reacted like a wounded animal and decimated the newcomers with lower fares and increased frequencies, I would suggest to you easyJet is in the same position to do to your new BA loco what they've done to Aer Lingus at Gatwick. I think you seriously underestimate the competitive advantage that EZY now has at LGW, two terminals and (I believe), some 42 based aircraft versus BA's 19, of which way less night stop at base.

Incidentally, BA's current LGW operation is not a hub and spoke it is a base offering point to point with some domestic feed in the mornings into long haul. BA's LGW "Hub without the hubbub" was a failure which lost millions. This is why they scaled back, indeed LGW long haul is a profitable niche even without feed.

[Edited 2011-11-28 06:01:54]
 
qf002
Posts: 3681
Joined: Tue Jul 05, 2011 11:14 am

RE: British Airways - No More A319s At LGW?

Mon Nov 28, 2011 4:30 pm

Quoting skipness1E (Reply 37):
Quoting skipness1E (Reply 38):

Like I said, it was just an idea. I'm not 100% up to date with everything in British aviation, but I do think that BA would be stupid not to at least consider the idea considering the investment decisions that they're going to have to make soon with regards to LGW. If they're not making money out of their operations there then they need to do something about it. Expanding LGW operations in some way or another will help to ease pressures on LHR, and every flight that they can add to the LGW schedule could allow a more profitable/higher yielding one to be added at LHR.

Just sinking money into a poorly performing operations (ie buying 20 A319/20's or E-Jets or whatever) isn't going to solve the problem, so I'm just thinking of ways they can turn things around.
 
skipness1E
Posts: 4862
Joined: Sun Aug 19, 2007 9:18 am

RE: British Airways - No More A319s At LGW?

Mon Nov 28, 2011 4:45 pm

Quoting qf002 (Reply 39):
If they're not making money out of their operations there then they need to do something about it. Expanding LGW operations in some way or another will help to ease pressures on LHR, and every flight that they can add to the LGW schedule could allow a more profitable/higher yielding one to be added at LHR

If they can close short haul, they will. There are drawbacks but I am told commercially there are other reasons why they like having LGW short haul, but not enough to justify capital investment in a new fleet. Expanding LGW does not ease pressure on LHR, they tried that under Bob Ayling and it was reversed by Rod Eddington due to mounting losses.
Adding a boderline profitable LHR short haul flight to LGW often just adds another loss making LGW flight to the portfolio as too many regular passengers stay at LHR and fly with the competition. This has been seen time and time again I am afraid to say.
There is *no* casual link between BA LGW and BA LHR, they might as well be two airlines, the only link is, and this is allegedly, people earn points at one airport that get redeemed at another. Have a look at the routes BA have dropped out of LGW short haul in the six year period to 2005. Indeed BA LGW is more reminiscent of British Airtours in some ways, with the B737s and L1011s flying holiday makers around the globe in BA colours.

[Edited 2011-11-28 08:47:02]
 
aerokiwi
Posts: 2793
Joined: Sun Jul 30, 2000 1:17 pm

RE: British Airways - No More A319s At LGW?

Mon Nov 28, 2011 11:22 pm

Quoting qf002 (Reply 33):
The most successful method of fighting LCC is with a LCC of your own.

Um, history would suggest otherwise. Almost every single example of this has failed, cannibalising the parent airlines pax and muddling the market with confusing brands. Jetstar is perhaps the one success story, and that's controversial (attribution of costs etc). Otherwise it's failed in Europe and the States.

[Edited 2011-11-28 15:22:55]

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