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musang
Posts: 800
Joined: Sun Apr 08, 2001 4:11 am

MU Plane Took Off W/O Clearance & Despite Stop Order

Tue Nov 29, 2011 3:01 pm

Quoting usafdo (Reply 12):
The pilots need to be suspended immediately, and perhaps fined.

A bit harsh, don't you think?

Quoting ac033 (Reply 21):
All 3 crews member are now suspended UFN...

From which we should infer nothing. Standard procedure in many organisations, while the investigation gets under way.

Quoting C680 (Reply 24):
Our SOP is abort above 80 kts is only for Fire, Failure, Roll back or loss of directional control. A controller saying "STOP" requires a very quick judgement call. An aborted take off at high speed (in our case over 80 kts) is one of the more dangerous maneuvers you can do in a jet. If the crew cannot see an obstruction, imminent collision, or some other catastrophic problem, its probably best to keep going.

Couldn't agree more. An abort above 80 kts is considered a major event. I'd stop in fog, if I couldn't be sure there was nothing on the runway ahead, or perhaps if an intersecting runway was also active, but if a quick visual scan outside told me all was ok I'd be go-minded. At high speed, its our call. If the controller called stop and stated a reason, that would help me in the decision to comply or not.

IMHO it is much safer to continue the take off and avoid the helicopter traffic that the Japanese controler was worried about. But I don't think anyone on this forum was actually there, so this is all just standard A.NET armchair quarterbacking fun....

Indeed.

Quoting soon7x7 (Reply 48):
An why they (FAA) did away with "Position and hold" is just nonsense.

Wasn't it because "..and hold" could be misheard as "..and GO"? Or as was mentioned earlier, "..and ROLL?)

And another thing. No tinkering with phraseology is going to prevent every case of taking off without clearance. In some cases a flight reads back a line-up clearance and just continues into take-off mode. Because one pilot is for whatever reason mentally cleared for take-off and is acting accordingly, the other can easily be led into assuming they're cleared when they're not. Large segments of Human Factors courses revolve around around this sort of thing, and airlines incorporate it into recurrent training courses. Its all very well you non-pilots sitting there and thinking we're all robots. Pilots occasionally "hear what they expect to hear" rather than what was actually said, for all sorts of distractionary (is that a real word?) reasons.

This sort of thing happens in all walks/areas of life and I think the technical term is brainfart. You can legislate, devise procedures, change phraseology and incorporate technical safety nets all you like, but sooner or later a human is going to find a way through all that and get something wrong. Its a danger we are aware of and are constantly guarding against.

Certainly non-English pilots are at a disadvantage, but often taking off without clearance has nothing to do with it.

A related problem is reading back a climb/descent clearance wrongly, and the controller doesn't pick up on it for some reason (brilliant though they generally are, controllers aren't robots either). Our autopilot mode select panels now transmit to the controller the altitude we've actually dialled in, so if we're cleared to level 100 and we dial in 110, we're get a call like "confirm cleared level is 100" or similar, a tactful reminder that he's/she's noticed that we've misheard or perhaps corerectly heard but misdialled.

At this stage there is no technology for a similar safety net to be applied with take-off clearances.

regards - musang
 
Mir
Posts: 19491
Joined: Mon Jan 05, 2004 3:55 am

MU Plane Took Off W/O Clearance & Despite Stop Order

Tue Nov 29, 2011 3:19 pm

Quoting RobK (Reply 41):
Make your mind up!

It was definitely 1056. I didn't listen to the video in its entirety the first time, as I had heard it before a while ago and knew what it was - I did not remember the flight number specifically, so I thought you were referring to something else. The second time I did listen to it completely, and the guy was saying 1056 the way he's supposed to.

Quoting RobK (Reply 41):
I expect you will retort that twinning up the numbers is essential in the US due your airspace being busier than anyone elses

I don't know why the numbers are supposed to be paired up. But they are, and so you can't criticize the controller for adhering to the phraseology he's told to adhere to.

-Mir
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
 
737tdi
Posts: 1116
Joined: Sun Sep 02, 2007 10:05 am

MU Plane Took Off W/O Clearance & Despite Stop Order

Tue Nov 29, 2011 5:54 pm

OK: I am a mechanic who "taxis commercial aircraft" daily. I am also a private pilot. I make dang sure that what I heard is what ATC said. PERIOD. If you are unsure or even question what approvals were given you ask for clarification. There is no reason for mistakes like this. You have to remember that there are lots of other lives involved.
 
copter808
Posts: 1384
Joined: Sat Dec 30, 2000 1:14 pm

MU Plane Took Off W/O Clearance & Despite Stop Order

Tue Nov 29, 2011 6:15 pm

Quoting usafdo (Reply 12):
The pilots need to be suspended immediately, and perhaps fined.

How about investigating the incident first? I don't know the facts, other than what's been reported by the media. I doubt you know them either!
 
LXLucien
Posts: 314
Joined: Sun Mar 20, 2005 2:51 am

MU Plane Took Off W/O Clearance & Despite Stop Order

Tue Nov 29, 2011 7:06 pm

Quoting Babybus (Reply 3):
There are new English tests for pilots who fly international legs which should help to stop this kind of thing happening.

Right, the ICAO language proficiency, but just look at the LX Birdstrike in LED ...

LX A319 Bird Strike In LED And Bad ATC English (by ManuCH Mar 21 2010 in Civil Aviation)

"Swiss 1311... because you catch bi(r)d?"

".. we have two engine problems, two engine problems"
"eh.. two eighty problems??"

This ATC also passed the proficiency... so you see the value of it... !!!

The whole problem is bigger then ICAO think it is, theres no regulation what kind of language can be used on frequencies. They wanted to, but the French and some other countries managed to avoid it.

Also if you think, the ICAO language proficiency is a result of the Teneriffa accident in 1977, but it took them 30!!!! years to set up a test like this. And even worse, as proofen by many incidents, it doesn't work properly!

I don't know but if ICAO can't set up international rules for things like that, what are they for?
Quote "Syriana": "Beirut, it's like Paris in the Mid-East"
 
spacecadet
Posts: 3582
Joined: Thu Sep 20, 2001 3:36 am

MU Plane Took Off W/O Clearance & Despite Stop Order

Tue Nov 29, 2011 7:27 pm

Quoting BlueShamu330s (Reply 40):
Reference some years ago, stuck behind a JAL B744 at LHR, who was instructed to "Line up and hold," to which he replied "Roger, Line up and ROLL."

"Line up and roll" is not and never was standardized phraseology for takeoff clearance.

"Clear for takeoff" *is* standardized phraseology. So is "line up and wait".

No one can account for every little misunderstanding of every word that may occur in a cockpit. That's not the point. If you go when someone says "roll", you're taking off without clearance as it is.

However, there *must* be an accounting for misunderstandings that may occur between phrases that *are* standardized. In certain accents, spoken quickly and when compressed through a radio transmission, the words "wait" and "clear" can sound very similar. There needs to be a clearly different sound to convey "stop" and "go" - something like "hold" and "clear", for example. Completely different vowel sound. And we had such a differentiation up until a year or two ago.

It was absolutely inevitable that something like this would happen, which, again, was predicted by people like myself and others as soon as the change from "position and hold" was made. It's just a good thing no lives were lost. Next time we may not be so lucky. And there will be a next time.
I'm tired of being a wanna-be league bowler. I wanna be a league bowler!
 
ikramerica
Posts: 15101
Joined: Mon May 23, 2005 9:33 am

MU Plane Took Off W/O Clearance & Despite Stop Order

Tue Nov 29, 2011 7:53 pm

Quoting LXLucien (Reply 54):
They wanted to, but the French and some other countries managed to avoid it.

Ah yes, same thing with the Olympics, repeating everything announcement in French.

Numbers from one linguistics study 10 years back. These are native speakers only, and the numbers for the top 8 have grown a lot since then, but not much for Japanese, German and French. Those who speak ESL are not counted. If counted, English and Mandarin are clearly the top 2, with French 10 or 11.

Chinese* (937,132,000)
Spanish (332,000,000)
English (322,000,000)
Bengali (189,000,000)
Hindi/Urdu (182,000,000)
Arabic* (174,950,000)
Portuguese (170,000,000)
Russian (170,000,000)
Japanese (125,000,000)
German (98,000,000)
French* (79,572,000)

* The totals given for Chinese, Arabic, and French include more than one SIL variety. See chart for full details.
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
 
Kaiarahi
Posts: 1810
Joined: Tue Jul 07, 2009 6:55 pm

MU Plane Took Off W/O Clearance & Despite Stop Order

Tue Nov 29, 2011 8:15 pm

Quoting LXLucien (Reply 54):
The whole problem is bigger then ICAO think it is, theres no regulation what kind of language can be used on frequencies. They wanted to, but the French and some other countries managed to avoid it.

Wrong on all counts.

The ICAO conventions clearly provide that the primary language for ATC communications is the LOCAL LANGUAGE of the ground station. French, Dutch, Swahili, Urdu, Tagalog, Bostonian, NYese - whatever.

Secondly, they also provide that in the case of ATC that serves international traffic, communication must also be available in English.
Empty vessels make the most noise.
 
Thrust
Posts: 2587
Joined: Wed Sep 17, 2003 12:17 pm

MU Plane Took Off W/O Clearance & Despite Stop Order

Tue Nov 29, 2011 8:23 pm

Thank god nobody got hurt.
Fly one thing; Fly it well
 
atct
Posts: 2472
Joined: Fri Mar 16, 2001 6:42 am

MU Plane Took Off W/O Clearance & Despite Stop Order

Tue Nov 29, 2011 8:32 pm

I can tell you as a controller who works the above aircraft (and Air China Freight) you treat with kid gloves. You baby every transmission with them and keep everyone out of their way. Its just not worth having a non-english speaker ruin your day by rattling off complex commands at a high rate of speed. I do have to say that CAO (Air China Freight) and Yangtze River are by far the worst pilots as far as communication goes that I have dealt with in my career. I have worked Hondorun Cessna's, all sorts of Mexican G/a's, but those two above take the cake.

atct
Trikes are for kids!
 
N1120A
Posts: 26613
Joined: Sun Dec 14, 2003 5:40 pm

MU Plane Took Off W/O Clearance & Despite Stop Order

Tue Nov 29, 2011 9:27 pm

Quoting ikramerica (Reply 56):
Ah yes, same thing with the Olympics, repeating everything announcement in French.

Uh, that's because the IOC is based in a French-speaking city (not in France, however) and one of the official languages is French.
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
cmf
Posts: 3120
Joined: Sun Jun 12, 2011 11:22 pm

MU Plane Took Off W/O Clearance & Despite Stop Order

Tue Nov 29, 2011 9:56 pm

Quoting ikramerica (Reply 56):
Numbers from one linguistics study 10 years back.

And while those numbers are interesting I would suggest they are not important. What you want to use, as hard as it is to measure, is global distribution. I would suggest several of those languages have very limited use outside limited geographic areas.
Don’t repeat earlier generations mistakes. Learn history for a better future.
 
LXLucien
Posts: 314
Joined: Sun Mar 20, 2005 2:51 am

MU Plane Took Off W/O Clearance & Despite Stop Order

Tue Nov 29, 2011 10:08 pm

Quoting Kaiarahi (Reply 57):
Wrong on all counts.

Yeah sorry that's what I actually meant! My Point was that there's no worldwide language regulation that Radio Communication must be in English, but still everybody has to pass the proficiency test...

I know sometimes it's better in certain situation to switch to the local language, but this should be reserved for special events like emergency or such things. It can't be that (like in the LX LED incident) other Russians have to translate to the ATC what he was trying to tell...
Quote "Syriana": "Beirut, it's like Paris in the Mid-East"
 
BMIFlyer
Posts: 8064
Joined: Mon Feb 23, 2004 7:11 am

RE: MU Plane Took Off W/O Clearance & Despite Stop Order

Thu Dec 01, 2011 8:59 pm

China Eastern Airlines to improve pilots' English

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-china-15980197
Sometimes You Can't Make It On Your Own
 
User avatar
Gonzalo
Topic Author
Posts: 1860
Joined: Tue Aug 23, 2005 2:43 am

RE: MU Plane Took Off W/O Clearance & Despite Stop Order

Thu Dec 01, 2011 9:41 pm

Quoting BMIFlyer (Reply 63):
China Eastern Airlines to improve pilots' English

Well... better late than never  

Rgds.

G.
Gear Up!!: DC-3 / EMB-110 / FH-227 / A318-19-20-21 / B732 / B763 / B789 / B788 / A343 / ATR72-600
 
B2443
Posts: 588
Joined: Sat Jul 03, 2004 2:28 am

RE: MU Plane Took Off W/O Clearance & Despite Stop Order

Thu Dec 01, 2011 10:31 pm

Oh well at this point, no one has evidence it was MU pilot misunderstanding as investigation is still going on. Just because it was reported by a Japanese source then it's automatically truth.

The same topic has caused similar debate in a Chinese aviation site, speculation there is that the "stop" order from ATC was given after take-off already in progress. http://bbs.feeyo.com/posts/526/topic-0011-5267081.html (in Chinese), in addition to the common belief that the Japanese English was horrible to begin with. Only the KIX ATC has the entire record of communication but for some reason it's not been shared with the Chinese. MU has already stated they would take the matter seriously, although without any evidence of fault in hand.
 
soon7x7
Posts: 2267
Joined: Thu May 04, 2006 10:51 am

RE: MU Plane Took Off W/O Clearance & Despite Stop Order

Thu Dec 01, 2011 11:26 pm

Quoting Navigator (Reply 49):
If they get stressed by these chinese guys I think they should not be controllers at all.


ATC gets deservedly stress when an A346 conducts an unauthorized excursion on to an active taxiway/ runway...JFK is not a large airport but A346's are, 245 feet with few places to keep them. Yeh, they get stressed. It is the pilots job/ responsibility to know all the information regarding destination airport, so taxiing on the wrong taxiway or onto an active runway through no fault of ATC, does tend to raise blood pressure...Hang out there some day and bring your camera...g

Quoting musang (Reply 50):
Wasn't it because "..and hold" could be misheard as "..and GO"? Or as was mentioned earlier, "..and ROLL?)


Not clear on why they changed it...either is my local FAA rep...I can say that while PIC, "Position and Hold" is a clear command that does not resemble anything else I am used to hearing. If you are an experienced pilot, position and hold is a command you would expect to hear at an expected juncture during your taxi/take off procedure. Changing the phrase just adds complications especially to pilots not up on their latest Fed updates. "Line up and wait" is something I do here in New York for every aspect of my life...g

Quoting 737tdi (Reply 52):
I make dang sure that what I heard is what ATC said. PERIOD.


And make dang sure that ATC heard what you said as PIC, goes both ways...No gray areas outside the cockpit...just black, white and red...

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