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frmrCapCadet
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Airlines Cater To 1st And Business Class

Tue Nov 29, 2011 8:15 pm

First-class and business-class passengers make up only 8 percent of international travelers but account for 27 percent of revenue, according to the International Air Transport Association. Peter Morris, chief economist at aviation consulting firm Ascend, told the Times that first and business class account for less than 20 percent of long-haul seats but 40 to 50 percent of airline revenue. While a round-trip coach ticket between Chicago and Beijing might run $1,000, business class costs $4,000 and first class $12,000

Read more: http://www.seattlepi.com/business/bo...-economy-2298492.php#ixzz1f7vdMQH4

What am I missing here? I have no objection to people paying more getting better service. But if you normalize those fares on a sq meter basis (and remember the wider aisles, shower, extra bathrooms per passenger, extra FAs, other extra personal) and I understand the extra weight, the per sqare foot cost per passenger is different, but not that different. What I do object to the the inappropriate devaluation of those flying coach. (hint, coach was not steerage class)
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tonystan
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RE: Airlines Cater To 1st And Business Class

Wed Nov 30, 2011 2:34 am

Its called "supply and demand"! Its what modern capitalism is based on!
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frmrCapCadet
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RE: Airlines Cater To 1st And Business Class

Wed Nov 30, 2011 3:04 am

And of course no standard airline can survive without coach class. So my expectation is that airlines need to figure out how to value coach class passengers, and make sure they know they are valued. Airlines don't have to do near so much for me to appreciate their service as they do for first class/business, but they better do something. My choices are to fly other airlines, or do my vacations so that they don't include flying.
Buffet: the airline business...has eaten up capital...like..no other (business)
 
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DeltaMD90
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RE: Airlines Cater To 1st And Business Class

Wed Nov 30, 2011 3:16 am

Quoting frmrCapCadet (Reply 2):
My choices are to fly other airlines, or do my vacations so that they don't include flying.

Then do that. Or fly Southwest who doesn't have business class. It's a free country. Free for airlines to have business classes if they want.

Quoting frmrCapCadet (Thread starter):
only 8 percent of international travelers but account for 27 percent of revenue

...means that it a higher yielding clientele. Business 101
 
frmrCapCadet
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RE: Airlines Cater To 1st And Business Class

Wed Nov 30, 2011 4:02 am

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 3):
Quoting frmrCapCadet (Thread starter):only 8 percent of international travelers but account for 27 percent of revenue
...means that it a higher yielding clientele. Business 101

Please note, a business class seat has about three times the square feet as a coach seat, and produces only a little more than three times the revenue. Economcis 101.
Buffet: the airline business...has eaten up capital...like..no other (business)
 
BD338
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RE: Airlines Cater To 1st And Business Class

Wed Nov 30, 2011 4:12 am

Being true for quite a while now. Many airlines particularly US legacy treat coach passengers seemingly as something they have to put up with rather than as paying customers. Providing an average (or less) service to the vast majority of their customers as part of the corporate culture.

The airlines moan the coach passenger wants the cheapest fare but if I pay a higher fare class I see no difference in service, so why should I? So that's why I fly WN in the US, SQ to Asia and for Europe I long ago gave up on expecting anything so I always have a good meal before leaving, have a couple of wines with a sleeping pill and remember it is only 8-10 hours.

On the rare occassion I've found a business fare I can afford, it is a world of difference. Actually a pleasure to fly. Impossible and unrealistic to ever expect business service in coach but at least something more welcoming with better amenities (see SQ) would be welcome for us great unwashed in the back of the bus.
 
RamblinMan
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RE: Airlines Cater To 1st And Business Class

Wed Nov 30, 2011 4:14 am

Quoting frmrCapCadet (Reply 4):
Please note, a business class seat has about three times the square feet as a coach seat, and produces only a little more than three times the revenue. Economcis 101.

Therefore each J-class passenger is equal in importance to three Y-class passengers. Not sure what you're getting at.

Quoting frmrCapCadet (Thread starter):
What I do object to the the inappropriate devaluation of those flying coach.

I'd say the majority of the time the service I've received in coach has been absolutely appropriate.
 
roseflyer
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RE: Airlines Cater To 1st And Business Class

Wed Nov 30, 2011 4:15 am

Coach passengers are the most price sensitive. Therefore, airlines are not motivated to improve service and "value" the customers more, but rather get as many in as possible safely between their destinations. Any way you put it, economy is miserable. On some airlines it is a little less miserable.

Business class customers are far more loyal to specific airlines and are more likely to compare services. They often are frequent flyers as well. Keeping them happy is more than just one transpacific flight, but continuous revenue. It's not that the economy passenger may not fly as many trips, but they are more price sensitive which means less revenue potential.

Quoting frmrCapCadet (Reply 2):
So my expectation is that airlines need to figure out how to value coach class passengers, and make sure they know they are valued. Airlines don't have to do near so much for me to appreciate their service as they do for first class/business, but they better do something.

What are you asking for? Not every passenger can get express services to cut down lines. Better food? All these things cost money. What value are you talking about? Airlines already added PTVs for the most part as there are people who will avoid long haul flights without them.

Quoting frmrCapCadet (Reply 2):
My choices are to fly other airlines, or do my vacations so that they don't include flying.

Will better service get you to choose one airline over another enough to pay more?
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YYZRWY23
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RE: Airlines Cater To 1st And Business Class

Wed Nov 30, 2011 4:26 am

Quoting frmrCapCadet (Thread starter):
What am I missing here?

I think what you are missing here is the additional value that first-class seat brings in, besides the revenue on that particular flight. An airlines first and business class products attract corporate contracts, which guarantees revenues and puts people in the most expensive seats. Also, part of the massive increase in price has to do with service levels. You noted extra flight attendants. It isn't the sq meters they take up, or the salary. It is the more personalised, luxurious service and attention you receive. Also, something not measured in sq meters in the noise level of the cabin. F and J tend to be significantly quieter than Y and for a business person this is worth the ticket cost in itself.

Quoting frmrCapCadet (Thread starter):
What I do object to the the inappropriate devaluation of those flying coach.

I don't think Y is devalued at all. These are lower-yield seats as they do not offer as many amenities, perks, and luxuries to those in coach.

Quoting frmrCapCadet (Reply 2):
So my expectation is that airlines need to figure out how to value coach class passengers, and make sure they know they are valued.

When I fly coach, I know I am valued when I receive a seat, and me and my luggage make it from point A to point B as safely and quickly as possible, with a small snack and a beverage. That is all I expect from coach. That is all I am valued as in coach. A person who wants what I stated above. If I want a bigger and comfier seat, closer attention service, a hot meal, and quieter area, I will pay to move the cabin where, for the increase in ticket price, I am valued more.

Think of it this way: Look at the service, respect, and quality of food you receive at McDonald's. Mc'Donalds is the coach class of dining. You pay a cheap price, get a cheap quality product, and they pay little attention to you. Go to Morton's and all of a sudden, you are treated like gold and have a luxurious, wonderful dining experience with top quality food. You also pay $60-$80 for your steak.

Quoting frmrCapCadet (Reply 4):
a business class seat has about three times the square feet as a coach seat, and produces only a little more than three times the revenue

In your example business class was 4 times as much. I don't know why you're so focused on sq ft and sq meters, this has very little to do with it. As you have stated yourself: 3 times more space, 4 times more revenue.

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jetjack74
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RE: Airlines Cater To 1st And Business Class

Wed Nov 30, 2011 4:28 am

Quoting frmrCapCadet (Thread starter):
What am I missing here?

Well, considering back in the 1960s and 70s, a far fewer number of Americans could afford to fly across the country, let alone a ticket across the Pacific. Fares are cheaper because the prices that we sell the premium seats for, part of that subsidizes the coach cabin. So it's just a matter of simple economics. I amazed at how many people fail to recognize that.
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fbgdavidson
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RE: Airlines Cater To 1st And Business Class

Wed Nov 30, 2011 4:51 am

Something that hasn't yet been mentioned is by avoiding in investing in economy you're automatically making the premium cabins more enticing.

Quoting frmrCapCadet (Reply 4):
Please note, a business class seat has about three times the square feet as a coach seat, and produces only a little more than three times the revenue. Economcis 101.

Well since not all fares are fixed, and not all business seats equal those are gross generalizations. I'm sure the full fare business class fare on some routes is probably 8x the cost of fully flexible economy and 30x the cheapest economy fare.

Quoting BD338 (Reply 5):
The airlines moan the coach passenger wants the cheapest fare but if I pay a higher fare class I see no difference in service, so why should I?
Quoting RoseFlyer (Reply 7):

Coach passengers are the most price sensitive. Therefore, airlines are not motivated to improve service and "value" the customers more, but rather get as many in as possible safely between their destinations.

   For those that doubt this take a look on any air travel related forum outside of the airliners.net/enthusiast world. A huge percentage of questions are about the cheapest fare.
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DeltaMD90
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RE: Airlines Cater To 1st And Business Class

Wed Nov 30, 2011 4:59 am

Quoting frmrCapCadet (Reply 4):
Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 3):
Quoting frmrCapCadet (Thread starter):only 8 percent of international travelers but account for 27 percent of revenue
...means that it a higher yielding clientele. Business 101

Please note, a business class seat has about three times the square feet as a coach seat, and produces only a little more than three times the revenue. Economcis 101.

Ah, but 3 people + 3 seats + 3 x baggage is heavier than 1 person + 1 business seat + 1 x baggage. Uhh... physics 101  

I'm not gonna pretend to be an airline expert, but if business class travelers didn't rake in so much money, AA, DL, and UA wouldn't be catering to them. (LCCs are a totally different story with a totally different cost structure just in case you pull a fast one on me!   )
 
virgin744
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RE: Airlines Cater To 1st And Business Class

Wed Nov 30, 2011 5:02 am

Quoting frmrCapCadet (Thread starter):


I dont understand the point of your post. You pay your money, you get your choice. What's the big deal?
If you dont/cant pay for and upgraded service then you have economy class and those than can afford it choose something more. This is how almost every business and customer operates in a free market economy...and beyond.

Get over it!

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