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nickofatlanta
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SQ's LCC Scoot Announces First Route: SIN-SYD

Thu Dec 01, 2011 2:28 am

Interesting news given that SQ flies multiple (4?) times daily on the route:
http://www.smh.com.au/travel/travel-...budget-carrier-20111201-1o82t.html
 
wedgetail737
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RE: SQ's LCC Scoot Announces First Route: SIN-SYD

Thu Dec 01, 2011 2:34 am

Does this mean that legacy SQ will no longer serve SIN-SYD? No more full-service airline service?
 
qf002
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RE: SQ's LCC Scoot Announces First Route: SIN-SYD

Thu Dec 01, 2011 2:34 am

Interesting that the article mentions competing with JQ and D7... Neither of whom fly from SYD to Asia (outside of DPS, which is strictly leisure oriented). I guess this is a clever move, in that they will be SYD's first long haul LCC to Asia as a whole and potentially Europe...
 
joffie
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RE: SQ's LCC Scoot Announces First Route: SIN-SYD

Thu Dec 01, 2011 2:35 am

Quoting wedgetail737 (Reply 1):

I am sure they still will.

However, it is interesting to compete with your own airline, in a way!
 
qf002
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RE: SQ's LCC Scoot Announces First Route: SIN-SYD

Thu Dec 01, 2011 2:36 am

Quoting wedgetail737 (Reply 1):
Does this mean that legacy SQ will no longer serve SIN-SYD? No more full-service airline service?

Of course not... Four daily, with double daily A380's, is hardly something you give up on, especially when they compete so fiercely with QF.
 
MaverickM11
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RE: SQ's LCC Scoot Announces First Route: SIN-SYD

Thu Dec 01, 2011 2:41 am

I guess we now know that SINSYD isn't that great a market for SQ, which is not surprising given the competition.
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infinit
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RE: SQ's LCC Scoot Announces First Route: SIN-SYD

Thu Dec 01, 2011 3:03 am

Quoting wedgetail737 (Reply 1):
Does this mean that legacy SQ will no longer serve SIN-SYD? No more full-service airline service?

No way.. SQ does very full SIN-SYD. It is a very high yielding route. F and J are often full or nearly full. Same for MEL. Scoot will probably be in addition to SQ's service on this route. I cannot imagine SQ cutting back on their current full-service service to SYD even with 1 or 2 Scoot flights.

Perhaps there will be more J and less Yin the SIN-SYD SQ flights though but maybe not either.

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 5):
I guess we now know that SINSYD isn't that great a market for SQ, which is not surprising given the competition.

Is that a joke?

F and J are filled on this route! And there isn't all that much competition in the Southwest Pacific, only QF/BA and EK are direct competitiors. Not too bad if you compare it to other routes.

SQ's value-add to StarA is their share in the Southwest Pacific route.

[Edited 2011-11-30 19:05:42]
 
ben175
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RE: SQ's LCC Scoot Announces First Route: SIN-SYD

Thu Dec 01, 2011 3:08 am

I'd like to see Scoot replaced TR on the SIN-PER leg, any chance we would see this occurring?
 
peanuts
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RE: SQ's LCC Scoot Announces First Route: SIN-SYD

Thu Dec 01, 2011 3:14 am

From the article, this struck me more than anything...

"Singapore Airlines also received final approval today from Australia's competition regulator for an alliance with Virgin Australia."
 
MaverickM11
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RE: SQ's LCC Scoot Announces First Route: SIN-SYD

Thu Dec 01, 2011 3:16 am

Quoting infinit (Reply 6):

Is that a joke?

You think SQ is going to put their LCC product on one of their strongest premium routes? Look at where every other LCC airline offshoot has flown. They're never the high yield routes--hence the low yield product.

Quoting infinit (Reply 6):
F and J are filled on this route! And there isn't all that much competition in the Southwest Pacific

At what fares? SQ competes with everyone and their mother between Australia and Asia, never mind the Middle East and Europe.
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infinit
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RE: SQ's LCC Scoot Announces First Route: SIN-SYD

Thu Dec 01, 2011 3:28 am

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 9):
You think SQ is going to put their LCC product on one of their strongest premium routes? Look at where every other LCC airline offshoot has flown. They're never the high yield routes--hence the low yield product.

What I know though is SIN-SYD-SIN is a route where F and J is filled. As for Y I was looking for seats in Jan, Feb and March. I could hardly find any saver seats. Not an expert on which routes give SQs their highest yields but this is definitely one of the highest.

I for one don't buy the whole Scoot proposition and I imagine it would jeopordise SQ's Y loads.. I suppose what they'd do is take all the Saver Y fares out with the addition of Scoot. But seeing as how busy this route is I cannot imagine any cut-backs to SQ's full service flights. I said a year ago that SIN-SYD and SIN-MEL could use with 1-2 additional daily flights
 
qf002
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RE: SQ's LCC Scoot Announces First Route: SIN-SYD

Thu Dec 01, 2011 3:39 am

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 5):
I guess we now know that SINSYD isn't that great a market for SQ, which is not surprising given the competition.
Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 9):
You think SQ is going to put their LCC product on one of their strongest premium routes? Look at where every other LCC airline offshoot has flown. They're never the high yield routes--hence the low yield product.

There is only one other example of a legacy/LCC combo in the world, and that is QF/JQ. They took one approach, which was to use the LCC on low yielding/leisure routes. SQ is obviously going for another approach.

Because their core brand is so strong, and such a premium brand, they can afford to introduce a much cheaper brand so as to widen their scope in the market. By flying both SQ and Scoot, they will pick up more passengers from a wider breadth of the market. Customers travelling Y on SQ are not the market for Scoot (just look at the fares). Scoot will take traffic away from airlines like MH, TG, KE, GA etc who all offer very competitive fares in Y, far below those at SQ.

QF used its LCC to reduce their costs, SQ is using it to increase market share. Very different, and high incomparable, examples.
 
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allrite
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RE: SQ's LCC Scoot Announces First Route: SIN-SYD

Thu Dec 01, 2011 3:58 am

I wonder how quickly Jetstar will respond. At the moment they have MEL-SIN and SYD passengers either fly down to MEL or up via DRW to SIN on an A320/1. But depending on A330 availability I wouldn't be surprised if they switch one across quickly. I'm sure there's enough market for both premium and LCC carriers to Singapore - a lot of Asians (and non-Asians!) here will all levels of wealth. I bet AirAsiaX will soon be flying here now they have a "close relationship" with MH.

I think the real prize is who will offer the best connectivity onwards from SE Asia, especially to Europe. If you can do it reasonably consistently for less than A$1000 then you shouldn't have any problems filling planes.

(edited for dropped sentence)

[Edited 2011-11-30 19:59:14]
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qf002
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RE: SQ's LCC Scoot Announces First Route: SIN-SYD

Thu Dec 01, 2011 4:05 am

Quoting allrite (Reply 12):
I think the real prize is who will offer the best connectivity onwards from SE Asia, especially to Europe. If you can do it reasonably consistently for less than A$1000 then you shouldn't have any problems filling planes.

That's the issue. JQ can't respond, because they can't offer onward connections to Europe. Of course, neither can Scoot at this stage, but they will expand rapidly, and will also have SQ's network behind them.
 
MaverickM11
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RE: SQ's LCC Scoot Announces First Route: SIN-SYD

Thu Dec 01, 2011 4:20 am

Quoting qf002 (Reply 11):
Because their core brand is so strong, and such a premium brand, they can afford to introduce a much cheaper brand so as to widen their scope in the market. By flying both SQ and Scoot, they will pick up more passengers from a wider breadth of the market.

I bet that's exactly what's on the powerpoint presentation supporting the idea of Scoot. But the reality is they're adding a bunch of seats to a market that is already well--possibly over--served which will only dilute yields. Australia is overstimulated; there are only so many people in the region, and not that many to begin with. Either SQ is totally out to lunch--which has certainly been the pattern behind most legacy LCC offshoots--or they are counting on moving significant amounts of traffic off of the premium carrier onto the LCC where the cost structure supports the fares.
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RE: SQ's LCC Scoot Announces First Route: SIN-SYD

Thu Dec 01, 2011 4:26 am

Quoting qf002 (Reply 4):
Of course not... Four daily, with double daily A380's, is hardly something you give up on, especially when they compete so fiercely with QF.

Will be interesting to see how QF react to more competition on their key European route...

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Gemuser
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RE: SQ's LCC Scoot Announces First Route: SIN-SYD

Thu Dec 01, 2011 4:35 am

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 14):
But the reality is they're adding a bunch of seats to a market that is already well--possibly over--served

Whose reality? It's most definitely NOT over served, try getting a seat in the next 4 months! Even well served is debatable. I can see 12-18 wide bodies a day, which is about half the SYD-MEL market which is about the same population as SYD-SIN.

This is both an attempt to stimulate the market AND grab market share. Probably also a hit back over RedQ.

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RE: SQ's LCC Scoot Announces First Route: SIN-SYD

Thu Dec 01, 2011 4:49 am

Quoting EK413 (Reply 15):
Will be interesting to see how QF react to more competition on their key European route...

I don't think it will affect the European routes at all. Scoot will be strictly SIN-SYD only with no connectivity to other SQ flights. The target is purely tourist, backpackers and other stingy people.
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RE: SQ's LCC Scoot Announces First Route: SIN-SYD

Thu Dec 01, 2011 5:16 am

Quoting gemuser (Reply 16):
try getting a seat in the next 4 months!

I can get plenty this month starting at $1060 all in?  
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RE: SQ's LCC Scoot Announces First Route: SIN-SYD

Thu Dec 01, 2011 5:20 am

It makes sense. It broadens SQ group appeal to encompass a previously untapped (by SQ) part of a very lucrative market. I think I actually predicted this kind of thing in the Scoot thread a while back.
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qf002
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RE: SQ's LCC Scoot Announces First Route: SIN-SYD

Thu Dec 01, 2011 5:57 am

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 14):
But the reality is they're adding a bunch of seats to a market that is already well--possibly over--served which will only dilute yields.

How is the market over served, when as yet there is zero LCC connecting SYD to Asia (aside from an O&D DPS flight)? This is a big chunk of the market that is currently under served in SYD, with customers having to travel to either MEL or OOL. As has been demonstrated on multiple occasions (MEL-SIN comes to mind), the entry of LCC does not have to mean lower fares for the legacy. QF still charges a fare similar to SQ on MEL-SIN, even with JQ now in the market at a much lower level.
 
Longhornmaniac
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RE: SQ's LCC Scoot Announces First Route: SIN-SYD

Thu Dec 01, 2011 6:19 am

Quoting infinit (Reply 10):

This matters practically nil when talking about actual yields. A full cabin does not equate to profits, a common misconception. You have no idea what price those passengers were paying, or even if they were paying.

AA can be profitable on its RDU-LHR route without selling a single seat thanks to massive cargo revenue and corporate contracts.

It's not farfetched at all to believe the opposite is true, and trust me, it isn't.

This strikes me as a move to get SQ's parent company a bigger slice of the overall pie. I will be intrigued to see how this venture goes, it is certainly unique.

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alangirvan
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RE: SQ's LCC Scoot Announces First Route: SIN-SYD

Thu Dec 01, 2011 6:21 am

There are four SQ flights a day between SYD and SIN, and Feb schedules are showing A380s x 2, 1 777-300 and 1 A330-300. This is actually a reduction of Economy seats compared from the days, only a few years ago whe SYD-SIN was three 747-400s per day. So, if the Scoot 777-200ERs do have about 30/370 seats this will hardly be flooding the market.

SYD-SIN is a route where the competition has disappeared over the years. Some years ago, several European carriers like Alitalia, Olympic were where you went if you wanted a bargain fare to SIN. Good fares were available on Gulf Air. Egypt Air, as well, for a short period. Perhaps, surprisingly, EK does not do SYD-SIN - they do MEL/BNE-SIN and SYD-BKK - or course they like to do non stops to their own hub.

Question might be how many people actually go to SIN from SYD. On my flights to SIN, with three different airlines. BA/QF and SQ, there have been hardly any people getting off the plane and going through immigration. Many of the people connect to a flight to India or Europe, the same evening. Many of the people getting out would have been doing stopvers, which are heavily promoted. Jetstar, when they do flights between Australia and SIN, can connect people onto other Asian destinations like Penang, Phuket, Vietnam. Singapore Airlines can fly people between Australia and Asian resorts, Scoot cannot do that on their own services -- they would have to put people onto Tiger.

The reason for starting Scoot - will not really become clear until Scoot tells us where the flights to Europe will go. A 400 seater 777-200ER may not be more uncomfortable than an EK 77W in Tourist or an Air Asia X A330-300. Some of may have thought that the first European cities would be Rome and Athens, but Scoot may just as well compete against SQ into London - perhaps Stansted.
 
6thfreedom
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RE: SQ's LCC Scoot Announces First Route: SIN-SYD

Thu Dec 01, 2011 7:40 am

I wonder if scoot will try and provide an overnight flight ex-SYD.

the timings don't work that well from a connecting viewpoint, but the last departure from SYD to SIn is currently 18:00.

if Scoot went for a 22:20 departure from sydney, it would arrive SIN about 0400, which would then allow connections onto Tiger's 0600 - 0730 departure.

from singapore to Sydney it would mean an 11am departure, arriving Sydney 21.00. again, this would allow for Tiger's back of clock india and china flights to connect.
 
alangirvan
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RE: SQ's LCC Scoot Announces First Route: SIN-SYD

Thu Dec 01, 2011 7:50 am

The problem with SYD and ADL is the curfew. MEL and BNE can have 0100 departures, and the plane arrives at the crack of dawn into SIN, rather than 4 am, which is still the middle of the night. Qantas tried doing some flights with a 4 am arrival into SIN, and a two hour wait before the departure to LHR. (If you use EK to DXB, a 2100 departure ex SYD arrives at 0600, which is much better.

The SIN-SYD daylight flights usually overnight in SYD, and then leave very early in the morning, and give good connections onto short haul flights from SIN. If Scoot wants to connect SYD to Indian ports, these are the flights times they would use.
 
IndianicWorld
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RE: SQ's LCC Scoot Announces First Route: SIN-SYD

Thu Dec 01, 2011 8:04 am

Interesting choice. I am sure that the fact they were going to take on a route not operated by JQ or D7 helped.

Wonder how much the NSW govt paid for this?  
 
brightcedars
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RE: SQ's LCC Scoot Announces First Route: SIN-SYD

Thu Dec 01, 2011 10:46 am

I think it makes perfect sense to send the more cost conscious customers to your low-cost offshoot while you can fill your own plane (that has a higher cost mix) with more better paying customers. At the same time you provide competition to those carriers who's bottom-line may be more exposed to the need of a fuller low revenue cattle class.
 
asianguy767
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RE: SQ's LCC Scoot Announces First Route: SIN-SYD

Thu Dec 01, 2011 11:34 am

IIRC the lowest SQ has ever sold its SYD route is SGD688 for all in fares, how much cheaper will Scoot sell it I wonder assuming similar taxes and fuel surcharges and I don't know abt you guys but I wonder what Scoot's 2 letter code will be, ST? SC? SO?
 
TN486
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RE: SQ's LCC Scoot Announces First Route: SIN-SYD

Thu Dec 01, 2011 12:33 pm

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 14):

I bet that's exactly what's on the powerpoint presentation supporting the idea of Scoot. But the reality is they're adding a bunch of seats to a market that is already well--possibly over--served which will only dilute yields. Australia is overstimulated; there are only so many people in the region, and not that many to begin with. Either SQ is totally out to lunch--which has certainly been the pattern behind most legacy LCC offshoots--or they are counting on moving significant amounts of traffic off of the premium carrier onto the LCC where the cost structure supports the fares.

Thinking outside the box, could SCOOT be used to replace the TIGER brand, if so, could this route be a prep to doing so?
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airbazar
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RE: SQ's LCC Scoot Announces First Route: SIN-SYD

Thu Dec 01, 2011 12:48 pm

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 9):
You think SQ is going to put their LCC product on one of their strongest premium routes?

YES. If it's a strong premium market that means they're leaving behind the low yield customer. SQ has always demanded a premium over the competition on the routes they fly. They can do that because of who they are and what they offer. Scoot is going after that lower end, very price conscious market that was NOT flying with SQ to begin with.
 
cedarjet
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RE: SQ's LCC Scoot Announces First Route: SIN-SYD

Thu Dec 01, 2011 1:50 pm

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 14):
...SQ is totally out to lunch--which has certainly been the pattern behind most legacy LCC offshoots

I cannot believe how awful the name is. Scoot! That's what dogs do on the carpet when they have itchy poop chutes.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gFvkr6GBWLw
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qf002
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RE: SQ's LCC Scoot Announces First Route: SIN-SYD

Thu Dec 01, 2011 1:52 pm

Quoting asianguy767 (Reply 27):
how much cheaper will Scoot sell it I wonder assuming similar taxes and fuel surcharges

I think that their corporate position is that fares will be around 40% cheaper than today's standard. Looking at SQ's fares over the next six months, I'd say that SYD-SIN will start around $500 at the very cheapest. JQ tends to be around that level out of MEL (though in very low times can be as low as $420ish)
 
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RE: SQ's LCC Scoot Announces First Route: SIN-SYD

Thu Dec 01, 2011 1:56 pm

Quoting cedarjet (Reply 30):
I cannot believe how awful the name is.

I think it's good: snappy, fun, modern, unusual. But then I also like Mango.
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LondonCity
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RE: SQ's LCC Scoot Announces First Route: SIN-SYD

Thu Dec 01, 2011 2:15 pm

Quoting AngMoh (Reply 17):
I don't think it will affect the European routes at all. Scoot will be strictly SIN-SYD only with no connectivity to other SQ flights. The target is purely tourist, backpackers and other stingy people.

Are you sure that there will be no interlining with SQ ? Reports in the Asian press from the Scoot media briefing in Singapore revealed that Scoot pax could interline wth SQ. That is, I would have thought, the reason why Scoot will use Changi's T2 rather than this airport's LCC terminal.
 
saint1862
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RE: SQ's LCC Scoot Announces First Route: SIN-SYD

Thu Dec 01, 2011 3:00 pm

I believe Scoot can't use Changi Airport's Budget Terminal because the parking bays are not big enough to accommodate a Boeing 777.

I'm planning a trip SIN-SYD in July or August 2012 and can't wait to see what the fares on QF are going to be in response to Scoot.
 
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RE: SQ's LCC Scoot Announces First Route: SIN-SYD

Thu Dec 01, 2011 3:18 pm

"Everyone writing for the Telegraph knows that the way to grab eyeballs is with Ryanair and/or sex."
 
MaverickM11
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RE: SQ's LCC Scoot Announces First Route: SIN-SYD

Thu Dec 01, 2011 3:34 pm

Quoting aerorobnz (Reply 19):
It broadens SQ group appeal to encompass a previously untapped (by SQ) part of a very lucrative market.

I don't see how this works, and over here in North America we've tried this many times. Adding cheap seats to a market drags down the fare. It just makes no sense.

Quoting qf002 (Reply 20):
As has been demonstrated on multiple occasions (MEL-SIN comes to mind), the entry of LCC does not have to mean lower fares for the legacy

I don't know what fares were like before JQ in MELSIN, but between EK/JQ/QF/SQ operating the route, all the fares have converged to roughly the same price point. QF/SQ probably eke out a slight premium, but I wouldn't call that proof that LCCs and premium carriers can coexist.

Quoting qf002 (Reply 20):
How is the market over served

The local traffic has its choice of 4 daily trips, and the flow traffic is subject to competition from a myriad other carriers. It may not be overserved, but if it is *under* served at a very restricted airport (SYD), why add an LCC product rather than another SQ trip? If adding another SQ trip sinks the market, then that brings us back to the possibility it's maybe not that strong a market to begin with.

Quoting airbazar (Reply 29):
If it's a strong premium market that means they're leaving behind the low yield customer.

This would argue for another SQ roundtrip, not an LCC

Quoting cedarjet (Reply 30):
I cannot believe how awful the name is. Scoot!

Smells about the same too!  
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qf002
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RE: SQ's LCC Scoot Announces First Route: SIN-SYD

Thu Dec 01, 2011 4:05 pm

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 36):
between EK/JQ/QF/SQ operating the route, all the fares have converged to roughly the same price point. QF/SQ probably eke out a slight premium, but I wouldn't call that proof that LCCs and premium carriers can coexist.

I disagree. For Y return, QF/SQ tend to float around the $1000 mark, EK around $900 then JQ at $750 max.

The only other example I can think of is KUL-LON, where MH competes with D7. For a round trip in the dead season (next Feb) D7 is charging A$624 return, while MH charges A$1038. A difference of over A$410.

I don't think that it's fair to say that fares have converged at the same price point on the examples that actually currently exist on long haul LCC's. The same is evident on domestic/regional services (at least it is in Asia).

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 36):
why add an LCC product rather than another SQ trip?

1. They don't want to dilute F/J yields. They want to add Y seats, not premium seats.
2. They already serve the $1000 return Y market. That market is all taken up with 7 daily flights. Expansion can only come by targeting the lower end of the market.

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 36):
Quoting airbazar (Reply 29):
If it's a strong premium market that means they're leaving behind the low yield customer.

This would argue for another SQ roundtrip, not an LCC

How? SQ can't cater for the low yield customer, so leaves them behind regardless of how many flights they fly.
 
cedarjet
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RE: SQ's LCC Scoot Announces First Route: SIN-SYD

Thu Dec 01, 2011 4:28 pm

Quoting [email protected] (Reply 32):
I think it's good: snappy, fun, modern, unusual. But then I also like Mango.

Mango is a great name! First of all, it doesn't make me think of what dogs do when they're experiencing a Ring Of Fire-type scenario, and more specifically the way they RECTIfy it.
fly Saha Air 707s daily from Tehran's downtown Mehrabad to Mashhad, Kish Island and Ahwaz
 
[email protected]
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RE: SQ's LCC Scoot Announces First Route: SIN-SYD

Thu Dec 01, 2011 4:33 pm

Quoting cedarjet (Reply 38):
First of all, it doesn't make me think of what dogs do

When I think of Scoot, I don't think of what dogs do.
"Everyone writing for the Telegraph knows that the way to grab eyeballs is with Ryanair and/or sex."
 
mainMAN
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RE: SQ's LCC Scoot Announces First Route: SIN-SYD

Thu Dec 01, 2011 4:45 pm

Is there any possibility that SQ might attract more European passengers to Sydney - by using Scoot half way, thus competing more effectively with the Gulf carriers? Just a thought......
 
aviasian
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RE: SQ's LCC Scoot Announces First Route: SIN-SYD

Thu Dec 01, 2011 4:58 pm

Singapore Airlines - especially now that it has its alliance with Virgin Australia blessed by the ACCC - is so confident of its branding and market in Australia that it dares to let its LCC subsidiary - Scoot - operate on the same route.

The market share is Qantas' to lose ... or in the least, Scoot will perhaps stimulate a market that previously could not go any further than Bali ... to travel to Singapore, and then perhaps use Changi as a base to fly on other LCCs around the Southeast Asian region.

It is perhaps to get a head-start on any dreams Jetstar Asia might be having on this same route when their own B787s arrive.

I fully agree with comments by qf002, gemuser and infinit. Many may think Singapore's 5 million inhabitants represent a small market ... you will be surprise how many trips most of these take a year and how many of them actually consider SIN-SYD and even SIN-LHR a short trip that is undertaken more than once a year. Many think nothing of a 13-hour trip each way to Europe.

The excitement over Sydney as a first destination is already getting plenty of media attention ... a positively surprising choice of destination that is already receiving the thumbs-up from many.

KC Sim
 
ORDJOE
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RE: SQ's LCC Scoot Announces First Route: SIN-SYD

Thu Dec 01, 2011 6:10 pm

I am surprised OZ gets as much air service as it does. While a beautiful region, it does not have all that much of a population and frankly is not a financial center like London, HKG, SIN, NYC. I am surprised it gets as much air service as it does, probably out of prestige.
 
SASDC8
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RE: SQ's LCC Scoot Announces First Route: SIN-SYD

Thu Dec 01, 2011 6:11 pm

Quoting Longhornmaniac (Reply 21):
This matters practically nil when talking about actual yields. A full cabin does not equate to profits, a common misconception. You have no idea what price those passengers were paying, or even if they were paying.

Except that this is SQ, and not some American carrier that gives away their premium seats for free to elites. On SQ you have to pay (and more than with their competitors) to get into the premium cabin, except for some very few award seats, which in turn are almost all reserved for SQs own frequent flyers.

A return trip 19-26 of January will set you back in US dollars:

Y: BA 1628 QF 1666 and SQ 2069

C: BA 6279 QF 6181 and SQ 6397

F: BA 8390 QF 8292 and SQ 9523

So it seems to me that all three carriers that offer direct flights are doing pretty well on the route, and SQ a little better in Y and F considering that they can get 400 dollars more for a economy seat and 1300 dollars more for a F seat.

I think there is definitely a market here for Scoot, even if it is a silly name.
2-3-2 is NOT a premium configuration
 
Longhornmaniac
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RE: SQ's LCC Scoot Announces First Route: SIN-SYD

Thu Dec 01, 2011 6:19 pm

Quoting SASDC8 (Reply 43):

I don't doubt that less of their premium cabins go to award travelers, but it doesn't change the fact that in a highly competitive route, it's not unheard of to sell tickets at a loss to keep them off a competitor.

My main point is, regardless of airline, a full cabin does not automatically equate to profitability.

Cheers,
Cameron
Cheers,
Cameron
 
luckyone
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RE: SQ's LCC Scoot Announces First Route: SIN-SYD

Thu Dec 01, 2011 6:27 pm

Quoting SASDC8 (Reply 43):

"Except that this is SQ, and not some American carrier that gives away their premium seats for free to elites. On SQ you have to pay (and more than with their competitors) to get into the premium cabin, except for some very few award seats, which in turn are almost all reserved for SQs own frequent flyers.

A return trip 19-26 of January will set you back in US dollars:

Y: BA 1628 QF 1666 and SQ 2069

C: BA 6279 QF 6181 and SQ 6397

F: BA 8390 QF 8292 and SQ 9523

So it seems to me that all three carriers that offer direct flights are doing pretty well on the route, and SQ a little better in Y and F considering that they can get 400 dollars more for a economy seat and 1300 dollars more for a F seat."

The first part of your statement reminds me of what my grandmother used to say: "There are a lot of people with more money than brains." SQ has smartly marketed to this crowd. I do wonder how much more profit they make per passenger in relation to their costs, because that premium service comes with an additional cost for the airline. How do they compare to their competitors?

Quoting qf002 (Reply 37):

"How? SQ can't cater for the low yield customer, so leaves them behind regardless of how many flights they fly."
For now, yes. A problem for Singapore Airlines, as others have mentioned, is once a LCC works into the market the prices go down, the market grows, but that previous group that used to be willing to pay extra for the privilege gets smaller in relation to the airline's operation. They also become accustomed to having a choice on price and price consciousness develops. It happened in the US long ago. Europe's in the middle of it, and now it has begun in Asia. SQ is smart to try and contain it, but they have to be careful or they could be in a similar situation to Qantas where the mainline stagnates in favor of the more nimble and financially attractive LCC.
 
Gemuser
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RE: SQ's LCC Scoot Announces First Route: SIN-SYD

Thu Dec 01, 2011 8:01 pm

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 18):
I can get plenty this month starting at $1060 all in?

OK, it was a flippent remark, doesn't alter the fact that it can be difficult to get a seat at times, especially in specific fare classes.

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 36):
I don't see how this works, and over here in North America we've tried this many times. Adding cheap seats to a market drags down the fare. It just makes no sense.

OK, that was the North Americian exprience, why do you think that is directly transferrable to Australia/Asia? It certainly doesn't seem to have happened on SYD/MEL/BNE with the launch of JQ, nor on SIN-KUL, as two examples.

IMHO the key is product/brand differentation. In a sitution you really do need it. QF seem to have been successful at and don't see SQ being any less so.

Gemuser
DC23468910;B72172273373G73873H74374475275376377L77W;A319 320321332333343;BAe146;C402;DHC6;F27;L188;MD80MD85
 
tayser
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RE: SQ's LCC Scoot Announces First Route: SIN-SYD

Thu Dec 01, 2011 8:45 pm

Quoting ordjoe (Reply 42):
I am surprised OZ gets as much air service as it does. While a beautiful region, it does not have all that much of a population and frankly is not a financial center like London, HKG, SIN, NYC. I am surprised it gets as much air service as it does, probably out of prestige.

highly mobile population with a currency that buys a LOT in Asia, also SQ, CX, CZ, TG, VN, MH, D7 & GA only need one plane to do a daily service - that's why.
 
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huaiwei
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RE: SQ's LCC Scoot Announces First Route: SIN-SYD

Thu Dec 01, 2011 9:04 pm

Quoting [email protected] (Reply 39):
When I think of Scoot, I don't think of what dogs do.

Neither do I, as is also the case for the vast majority of people the airline is going to serve. The first thing which comes to mind is the word "scooter", a vehicle particularly popular in many parts of urban Asia.

Ironically I have owned two dogs so far, and I did not even know scoot refers to that particular action which neither of my dogs do, and neither have I ever seen any other dog do here. Perhaps dogs in Singapore have better bowel habits, or they simply have nothing to drag their butts on since 90% of us live in high-rise apartments and over 95% of our floors are not carpeted?

Make a google image search on the word "Scoot" and it reflects exactly what I have just said.

Quoting Longhornmaniac (Reply 44):
but it doesn't change the fact that in a highly competitive route, it's not unheard of to sell tickets at a loss to keep them off a competitor.

With just three airlines competing, and with two of them allied, I am not sure if you would call that a highly competitive route, especially considering the price premium all three airlines charge.

Quoting mainMAN (Reply 40):
Is there any possibility that SQ might attract more European passengers to Sydney - by using Scoot half way, thus competing more effectively with the Gulf carriers? Just a thought......

I doubt that will happen since most through flights from Europe to Australia are rather competitively priced, and are likely to be cheaper compared to buying two tickets, even if one of them is on scoot. Scoot's effect will only be felt when they fly to Europe on their own metal, I feel.

Quoting qf002 (Reply 37):
How? SQ can't cater for the low yield customer, so leaves them behind regardless of how many flights they fly.

   I am still not flying to SYD even if SQ flies 10 flights there every day, simply because I consider it overpriced.

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 36):

I don't see how this works, and over here in North America we've tried this many times. Adding cheap seats to a market drags down the fare. It just makes no sense.

To add on to gemuser's comment, do not assume every market is the same as the American experience. Afterall, I keep seeing Americans claiming their market is unique when they try to defend the relatively poor overall quality of air travel. Asians still largely see flying as a big deal because alternative forms of transport exists, particularly in domestic markets. LCCs in Asia have particularly expanded the market by pulling people away from the trains, buses and cars, as has been observed in countries as diverse as China and Malaysia, unlike in the US where they largely cannibalise between airlines.

Last year, I actually contemplated between flying an LCC (which was cheaper) and a "long-distance" (short by international standards) bus to a city in Malaysia, but the bus still won in the end due to scheduling and door-to-door service. When the SIN-KUL market became inundated by three LCCs, the corresponding bus services took a severe beating amd faired worse than the legacies who survived better. Does this happen in the US each time an LCC route is launched?

Quoting aviasian (Reply 41):
Many may think Singapore's 5 million inhabitants represent a small market ... you will be surprise how many trips most of these take a year and how many of them actually consider SIN-SYD and even SIN-LHR a short trip that is undertaken more than once a year. Many think nothing of a 13-hour trip each way to Europe.

Precisely. It has been documented (I can't find the source now) that Singaporeans are amongst the world's most well travelled (Singapore's small size and it having the world's largest proportion of millionaires probably helped). It is considered a social norm for most families to make at least one medium to long-haul trip a year, not counting the countless short trips by land or sea to neighbouring Malaysia and Indonesia. Over 90% of my colleagues are travelling overseas during the current year-end holidays, for example, and it is considered normal. People actually questioned why I chose not to fly anywhere this year!

Inward movement is also approaching 12 million this year in the form of tourism, more than twice Singapore's population, and is set to balloon further with double digit growth for several years more due to the casinos. The casinos, btw, now earn so much that Singapore will overtake Las Vegas either this year or next.

Quoting aviasian (Reply 41):

The excitement over Sydney as a first destination is already getting plenty of media attention ... a positively surprising choice of destination that is already receiving the thumbs-up from many.

As it did for me. Finally, I think I can make my first trip to Eastern Australia next year!

Quoting ordjoe (Reply 42):
I am surprised OZ gets as much air service as it does. While a beautiful region, it does not have all that much of a population and frankly is not a financial center like London, HKG, SIN, NYC. I am surprised it gets as much air service as it does, probably out of prestige.

It is amazing how you would consider SYD as an insignificant financial hub, to discount the Australian economy altogether. or to ignore the size of the Europe-Oceanian market. Flights into Australia by Asian carriers is hardly out of prestige, for there is obviously money to be made!

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 5):
I guess we now know that SINSYD isn't that great a market for SQ, which is not surprising given the competition.

For a market which is not that great, it is amazing that SQ chose it to launch its flagship airliner, and also chose it to launch its LCC. In the recent financial turmoil when SQ was close to reporting its first full year loss, the Oceanian market was singled out as the lifesaver which actually expanded even during the worse times and helped bring in the cash to avert red ink.

You can continue to believe that SIN SYD is a non-profitable market, if it suits your agenda. In a situation where very few of us will ever know true yields since such information is rarely available, it is really quite pointless to argue either way, but I think most people who live on this side of the planet will know better.

[Edited 2011-12-01 13:06:24]
It's huaiwei...not huawei. I have nothing to do with the PRC! :)
 
AngMoh
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RE: SQ's LCC Scoot Announces First Route: SIN-SYD

Fri Dec 02, 2011 12:30 am

Quoting huaiwei (Reply 48):
Precisely. It has been documented (I can't find the source now) that Singaporeans are amongst the world's most well travelled (Singapore's small size and it having the world's largest proportion of millionaires probably helped). It is considered a social norm for most families to make at least one medium to long-haul trip a year, not counting the countless short trips by land or sea to neighbouring Malaysia and Indonesia. Over 90% of my colleagues are travelling overseas during the current year-end holidays, for example, and it is considered normal. People actually questioned why I chose not to fly anywhere this year!

Same, for me. Nobody can understand why I don't fly this coming Christmas holidays. And btw, for me a 5 hour flight to Shanghai or 6 hour flight to Korea is short. But I fall in the category which is not willing the fly an LCC. Flying to HKG, I fly SQ because the extra cost over CX is more than compensated by the more pelasant flight.

Scoot will fill the plane with people who otherwise won't fly. I don't think it will affect the main SQ routes at all.

Quoting luckyone (Reply 45):
For now, yes. A problem for Singapore Airlines, as others have mentioned, is once a LCC works into the market the prices go down, the market grows, but that previous group that used to be willing to pay extra for the privilege gets smaller in relation to the airline's operation. They also become accustomed to having a choice on price and price consciousness develops. It happened in the US long ago.

The market is not the same. People are different. Expectations are different. Costs are different. Airports are different. Flying times are on average longer. Also the problem in the US was/is that full service airlines never offered a significantly better service than LCCs. At the moment, UA/DL are offering a service level far below what AirAsia and Jetstar Asia are offering. Last year I flew SFO-BOS on (paid) UA First Class. Awfull. This year I flew BOS-SFO on UA Y which was even more disgusting. Will I upgrade to First Class next time: no way - it is not worth it. If you offer that level of service on a SIN-ICN flight (same duration), you be flying empty even if the tickets are almost free. You can fill the plane on SIN-DEL flying construction workers, but you still lose money.
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