WestJet747
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RE: Air Canada Struggling To Avoid Bankruptcy

Fri Dec 09, 2011 4:29 am

Quoting UALWN (Reply 147):
If you were to apply to a job in Germany and you were disqualified for your poor German, would you call that discriminatory?

I am being rejected for a job in my hometown, not another country.

And I wasn't making a case for discrimination. Please refer to my quote from the same paragraph:

Quoting WestJet747 (Reply 146):
To say it is discrimination is a bit of a stretch in some regards, but there are definitely francophones who don't always make you feel welcome in your own hometown.
Quoting YYZatcboy (Reply 148):
He never said that part was. What he said was on the border of discriminatory was the treatment of the english minority on occasion in Quebec both by the government and some of the citizens.

Yes, that is more or less what I was trying to convey.

Quoting cmf (Reply 149):
It is so stupid how it is English or French because of stupid pride. Accept it is a bi-lingual country and make sure kids learn both. Will help everyone.

French class is mandatory up to Grade 9, and it really doesn't help anyone. Having attended school in both Ontario and Quebec, the Ontario French curriculum is laughable. Unless you are in a french-immersion program, there is no way you will ever come close to being considered fluent enough to get a job at AC.
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outoftheice
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RE: Air Canada Struggling To Avoid Bankruptcy

Fri Dec 09, 2011 6:17 am

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 144):
AC hasn't been hesitant to drop losing routes. I can think of quite a few transborder routes they started and quickly stopped when they turned out to be uneconomic.

And AC has been reporting consistent operating profits recently. Their losses are largely related to costs that aren't directly related to their route network (pension funding etc.) Do you really think AC is operating dozens of routes that don't generate operating profits?

Perhaps I'm wrong, but as Viscount mentioned, doesn't an operating profit mean that the majority of Air Canada's routes are profitable and that the airline is making money with their current cost structure and route network?? It's my understanding that the losses people are referring to are due to things like foreign exchange and various accounting charges. I realize this accounting stuff has to be considered as part of the over-all financial health of a company, but when a massive annual loss could have easily been a massive annual profit if some external market influence was just a little bit different, is the sky really falling??

I'll be the first to admit that I don't really understand a lot of this accounting voodoo so perhaps someone with a better financial background can educate us... if only to give us a break from the french versus english debate  
 
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czbbflier
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RE: Air Canada Struggling To Avoid Bankruptcy

Fri Dec 09, 2011 6:23 am

OK- let's bring the discussion back to the topic at hand. Enough of this English / French thing. Enough of Westjet and some cockamamy idea that it could possibly step in and fill Air Canada's shoes. It is what it is.

Quoting sebring (Reply 70):
With over $2.2 billion in cash - plenty for an airline its size - and very little debt repayment in the next two years, there is no imminent crisis at Air Canada.
Quoting robsaw (Reply 98):
No, AC took a pension contribution holiday when times were good (as far as pension investment returns go), as permitted by all applicable laws and regulations, then when times turned bad the poor investment returns meant a deficit in the defined benefit pension plan. That shortfall, combined with lack of payments during their previous round of restructuring in bankruptcy protection, meant the AC contribution shortfall hit a peak of over $3B, now down to around $1.5B.

What are the chances if Air Canada were to dare seek court protection to 'reorganize', that the Courts would see the $1.5 billion deficit in pension payments and the $2.2 billion in cash and say...

Quote:
"Here's a solution!
Why not take $1.5 billion of your cash holdings and pay off the debt you owe to the pensions and call it a day?"

If the pensions are not as onerous as some would have it, why not just pay up, stop waging war on the employees who actually do the Effing work that an airline does and get on with running the goddamned airline?
 
multimark
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RE: Air Canada Struggling To Avoid Bankruptcy

Fri Dec 09, 2011 6:47 am

Quoting MarcoPoloWorld (Reply 134):
t would probably be better to just let someone like Emirates Airline (EK) take over the mainline international and domestic to/from/within Canada, with the gov't purchasing service from EK for service to remote areas that it deems essential. Seriously. It would mean lower fares and better service for all Canadians.

Right, cause nothing says "better service" like an EK T7 with 10 abreast in Y.   
 
abrelosojos
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RE: Air Canada Struggling To Avoid Bankruptcy

Fri Dec 09, 2011 7:44 am

Quoting multimark (Reply 153):

= At least, let the market make that choice. And, I am NO fan of EK.

Saludos,
A
Live, and let live.
 
UALWN
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RE: Air Canada Struggling To Avoid Bankruptcy

Fri Dec 09, 2011 9:44 am

Quoting WestJet747 (Reply 150):
I am being rejected for a job in my hometown, not another country.

Well, you conveniently left out my example within Switzerland. Same thing would happen within Belgium or within Spain, for instance. If part of your country lives in French and you want to work there, it just makes sense that you speak some level of French.
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czbbflier
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RE: Air Canada Struggling To Avoid Bankruptcy

Fri Dec 09, 2011 4:44 pm

Quoting UALWN (Reply 155):
If part of your country lives in French and you want to work there, it just makes sense that you speak some level of French.

The issue is that the law requires that Air Canada be based in Montreal. That means the government is requiring that Air Canada be located where there are disadvantages for the gross majority of the country's citizens to work there as Canadians are sadly unilingual in general.

But all that is a straw man, frankly. It is what it is.

I recall living in Eastern Ontario (Ottawa) where there is a very parochial and strong anti-French component to the general attitude toward Quebec and hearing about "APEC".

Everywhere else in the world, APEC stands for "Asia-Pacific Economic Conference". In Eastern Canada, it stands for "Alliance for the Preservation of English in Canada", if you can believe it.

So UALWN, take it all with a grain of salt. Don't waste any energy over this sentiment. Alternatives exist. If someone wants to work for an airline badly enough, Buffalo Airways is always looking for people!

Air Canada is a fine airline, no matter who is running it- it is the people on the ground and in the air who make the difference and I have only ever had excellent experiences with them- as have enough people for the airline to win awards as best North American airline.

So back to the real issues at hand.

As Sebring points out- Air Canada has $2.5 billion in cash holdings but a $1.5 billion deficit in their pension payments. Looks like an easy formula to me.
 
Skywatcher
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RE: Air Canada Struggling To Avoid Bankruptcy

Fri Dec 09, 2011 7:22 pm

If you use 60% of the current available cash to retire the pension debt the following would result;

-The share price would collapse since the cash "cushion" would almost disappear.

-The bond values would plummet and interest rates skyrocket because the cash is required as part of many of the lending (bond) contracts.

-The cash balance is used to "even out" funding requirements from quarter to quarter. Typically surplus cash is generated in the summer and burned in the winter at AC. If the 40% remaining cash available was quickly burned in the upcoming quarter AC would be toast.

-It would do nothing to solve the pension funding problem going forward. Cash would continue to be sucked into the black hole until there was nothing left. At that point it would be too late for a re-structuring and AC would be effectively insolvent.

The pension issue is a complex issue that requires organized labour to accept tough measures to enable AC to survive at all. If AC does go belly up labour will be left with a 1.5 billion shorfall in their pension plan with zero hope of ever plugging the hole. They would be left with thousands of current retired employees taking a cut in their payouts permanently along with a lot of newly retired people (due to AC bankruptcy) drawing from the same insufficient pension plan. It would simply be a disaster for AC pensioners. A solution needs to be found for them as well as the company.
 
WestJet747
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RE: Air Canada Struggling To Avoid Bankruptcy

Fri Dec 09, 2011 7:26 pm

Quoting czbbflier (Reply 152):
What are the chances if Air Canada were to dare seek court protection to 'reorganize', that the Courts would see the $1.5 billion deficit in pension payments and the $2.2 billion in cash and say...

Quote:
"Here's a solution!
Why not take $1.5 billion of your cash holdings and pay off the debt you owe to the pensions and call it a day?"

If the pensions are not as onerous as some would have it, why not just pay up, stop waging war on the employees who actually do the Effing work that an airline does and get on with running the goddamned airline?

It would be common sense to most to pay off pension debts using cash on hand. But like anything in finance, it's never that simple. If AC went and paid off the aforementioned pension deficit to wipe it clean, it would likely bring their cash reserves down to a level that might make some investors uneasy. We have to keep in mind that AC is expecting delivery of 787s very soon, which of course need to be paid for (whatever the financing agreement may be). I'm certain a great deal of this cash is sitting in accounts already allocated to aircraft payments. With all that said, the 2.2 billion in "cash" does not always mean that they literally have $2.2b sitting around in a chequing account accruing small interest.

Someone in airline finance, please correct me if I am wrong, but could this "cash" amount also include cashable bonds and other investments, as well as highly liquid assets?

Quoting UALWN (Reply 155):
Quoting WestJet747 (Reply 150):
I am being rejected for a job in my hometown, not another country.

Well, you conveniently left out my example within Switzerland. Same thing would happen within Belgium or within Spain, for instance. If part of your country lives in French and you want to work there, it just makes sense that you speak some level of French.

Yes I did, because my point remains the same. Comparing Zurich to Geneva is like comparing Montreal to Vancouver. My point is that my rejections were in my hometown, not another province of the same country.
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UALWN
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RE: Air Canada Struggling To Avoid Bankruptcy

Fri Dec 09, 2011 7:54 pm

Quoting WestJet747 (Reply 158):
Comparing Zurich to Geneva is like comparing Montreal to Vancouver. My point is that my rejections were in my hometown, not another province of the same country.

Then, consider yourself lucky that you can live in Montreal without speaking fluent French. Try living in Zurich without speaking German. Or living in Liège without speaking French. Or in Vancouver without speaking English...

[Edited 2011-12-09 11:57:51]
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yowza
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RE: Air Canada Struggling To Avoid Bankruptcy

Fri Dec 09, 2011 7:59 pm

Quoting UALWN (Reply 159):
Then, consider yourself lucky that you can live in Montreal without speaking fluent French. Try living in Zurich without speaking German. Or living in Liège without speaking French.

Neither Zurich nor Liege are truly bilingual cities. Montreal was till the government started tinkering.

YOWza
 
threepoint
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RE: Air Canada Struggling To Avoid Bankruptcy

Fri Dec 09, 2011 8:02 pm

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 144):
AC hasn't been hesitant to drop losing routes...Do you really think AC is operating dozens of routes that don't generate operating profits?

No I do not. My argument was theoretical and not to be applied to AC nor any other airline. I was refuting Yyz717's claim that a profitable airline must have 50% or more of its routes profitable and in turn, a loss-making airline must be operating at least 50% of its routes at a loss. It is not that cut & dry, never that simple, and a flawed logic.
Neither he nor I (nor I suspect, anybody else reading this) actually know what percentage of routes at AC (or WS) are profitable).

Quoting outoftheice (Reply 151):
Perhaps I'm wrong, but as Viscount mentioned, doesn't an operating profit mean that the majority of Air Canada's routes are profitable and that the airline is making money with their current cost structure and route network??

At the risk of flogging that dead horse, you can't necessarily claim that an operating profit = majority of routes are profitable. Of course, most (or all) of them at AC are likely profitable, and overall profit or loss results from other non-operational factors.
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planemaker
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RE: Air Canada Struggling To Avoid Bankruptcy

Fri Dec 09, 2011 8:03 pm

Quoting czbbflier (Reply 26):
Westjet, while a competent competitor of Air Canada is simply not equipped or structured to take over the global routes that Air Canada operates.
Quoting canuckpaxguy (Reply 41):
Neither are equipped to handle AC's international routes.

Hypothetically, if AC stopped flying, just how hard would it be for Canadians to book flights on BA, LH, CX, KL, JL, etc., etc. or go via the US to their international destination? For sure, EK would swamp Canada with A380s in a heartbeat.  
Nationalism is an infantile disease. It is the measles of mankind. - A. Einstein
 
YYZatcboy
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RE: Air Canada Struggling To Avoid Bankruptcy

Fri Dec 09, 2011 8:21 pm

The other thing that I was thinking (Purely hypothetical)...

If AC were to go belly up, suddenly all sorts of 767s, A330's and 777's would be on the market looking for a new home. One of the other canadian airlines might pick them up and take over some of AC's international flying. (Not saying any one airline would or could buy them all, or operate those routes, but rather that the need to acquire aircraft could be easily solved.)
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planemaker
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RE: Air Canada Struggling To Avoid Bankruptcy

Fri Dec 09, 2011 8:43 pm

Quoting UALWN (Reply 159):
Or in Vancouver without speaking English...

Not to get further off topic but, from what I have gathered, if you speak Chinese you can.
Nationalism is an infantile disease. It is the measles of mankind. - A. Einstein
 
WestJet747
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RE: Air Canada Struggling To Avoid Bankruptcy

Fri Dec 09, 2011 9:10 pm

Quoting planemaker (Reply 164):
Or in Vancouver without speaking English...

Not to get further off topic but, from what I have gathered, if you speak Chinese you can.

Yep, and you can also get by in Toronto speaking Urdu, Punjab, or Polish.....Greek or Italian in Montreal....

Quoting YYZatcboy (Reply 163):
If AC were to go belly up, suddenly all sorts of 767s, A330's and 777's would be on the market looking for a new home. One of the other canadian airlines might pick them up and take over some of AC's international flying. (Not saying any one airline would or could buy them all, or operate those routes, but rather that the need to acquire aircraft could be easily solved.)

Good observation in that all those aircraft would have to go to market. But you need two major things in order to acquire them: capital, and infrastructure. WS and TS are probably the only two that it would make sense to purchase those aircraft. It would only be financially prudent for WS to acquire the B aircraft and TS to acquire the A aircraft.

As an aside: does AC lease any aircraft? Or do they own their entire fleet?
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Viscount724
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RE: Air Canada Struggling To Avoid Bankruptcy

Fri Dec 09, 2011 9:37 pm

Quoting WestJet747 (Reply 165):
As an aside: does AC lease any aircraft? Or do they own their entire fleet?

Slightly more than half the AC fleet is leased. See page 32 of their 2010 annual report for a table showing their owned and leased aircraft as of December 31, 2010.
http://www.aircanada.com/en/about/investor/documents/2010_ar.pdf
 
Whiteguy
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RE: Air Canada Struggling To Avoid Bankruptcy

Fri Dec 09, 2011 9:44 pm

Quoting WestJet747 (Reply 165):


As an aside: does AC lease any aircraft? Or do they own their entire fleet?


All of ACs Embraers are owned. There rest of the fleet is a mix of owned and leased. Not sure the breakdown.
 
fly2yyz
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RE: Air Canada Struggling To Avoid Bankruptcy

Fri Dec 09, 2011 9:51 pm

AC is trying to avoid bankruptcy.... but they are still expecting their new aircraft soon right? Meaning they are still making payments....could they not just reneg on that aspect or is much focus only put on labor wages?
 
oflanigan
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RE: Air Canada Struggling To Avoid Bankruptcy

Sat Dec 10, 2011 3:21 am

Whats Canadian law on Foreign ownership of an airline? Whats the max percent?
 
WestJet747
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RE: Air Canada Struggling To Avoid Bankruptcy

Sat Dec 10, 2011 3:36 am

Quoting oflanigan (Reply 169):
Whats Canadian law on Foreign ownership of an airline? Whats the max percent?

25%

I think the U.S. is the same?
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Whiteguy
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RE: Air Canada Struggling To Avoid Bankruptcy

Sat Dec 10, 2011 3:47 am

Quoting Fly2yyz (Reply 168):

AC is trying to avoid bankruptcy.... but they are still expecting their new aircraft soon right? Meaning they are still making payments....could they not just reneg on that aspect or is much focus only put on labor wages?


B787s arrive first or second quarter of 2014.
 
cslusarc
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RE: Air Canada Struggling To Avoid Bankruptcy

Sat Dec 10, 2011 5:17 am

Quoting oflanigan (Reply 169):
Whats Canadian law on Foreign ownership of an airline? Whats the max percent?

and that is 25% of voting stock
--cslusarc from YWG
 
UALWN
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RE: Air Canada Struggling To Avoid Bankruptcy

Sat Dec 10, 2011 3:40 pm

Quoting yowza (Reply 160):
Neither Zurich nor Liege are truly bilingual cities. Montreal was till the government started tinkering.

Zurich and Liège are monolingual, while Montreal is still pretty bilingual. Hence you can't live in French in Zurich or in Dutch in Liège, but you can still pretty much live in English in Montreal. But I can understand that for many jobs in Montreal you must speak French. I don't see what's so weird about that.
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bmacleod
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RE: Air Canada Struggling To Avoid Bankruptcy

Sat Dec 10, 2011 7:20 pm

Quoting WestJet747 (Reply 165):
As an aside: does AC lease any aircraft? Or do they own their entire fleet?

I believe they own half their 777 fleet and most if not all 767s. Not sure about A319/320/321s...
"What good are wings without the courage to fly?" - Atticus
 
q120
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RE: Air Canada Struggling To Avoid Bankruptcy

Sat Dec 10, 2011 10:18 pm

Everyone calm down.
Air Canada will not go bankrupt.
Air Canada is a large employer and will not be allowed to go under.
Think of the implications of this airline ever going out of business.
Our great nation simply cannot absorb all these lost jobs, lost routes and most of all, lost of profit for the government and the airports.
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YYZatcboy
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RE: Air Canada Struggling To Avoid Bankruptcy

Sun Dec 11, 2011 12:39 am

Quoting q120 (Reply 175):
Our great nation simply cannot absorb all these lost jobs, lost routes and most of all, lost of profit for the government and the airports.

Yes, but I still think a fair argument could be made about some of Canada's other carriers stepping up to the plate to absorb the loss of AC.

Jazz would still be around to do the feeder flights, TZ could do long hauls, WS could do the north american continent stuff. All the 3rd tier guys are still there to sign with whoever takes over domestic flying.

Planes would be on the market to quickly expand...

Hypothetically speaking I would find it inconceivable that if AC were to suddenly disappear that other airlines would just refuse to pick up as much of the slack as they could. Might not happen overnight, but surely within 6-12 months things would be more or less back to normal and AC would be a distant memory...

again not saying it will or should happen. But it's interesting to speculate as to what would happen.
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yyz717
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RE: Air Canada Struggling To Avoid Bankruptcy

Sun Dec 11, 2011 12:49 am

Quoting q120 (Reply 175):
Everyone calm down.
Air Canada will not go bankrupt.
Air Canada is a large employer and will not be allowed to go under.

The issue is AC going thru CCAA, or Canada's version of Chapter 11 -- ie, a financial re-organization with some debts/obligations forgiven with equity likely zeroed out and new investment. That is, not a liquidation.

Quoting YYZatcboy (Reply 176):
Yes, but I still think a fair argument could be made about some of Canada's other carriers stepping up to the plate to absorb the loss of AC.

Jazz would still be around to do the feeder flights, TZ could do long hauls, WS could do the north american continent stuff. All the 3rd tier guys are still there to sign with whoever takes over domestic flying.

As AC continues to flounder, we will see WS, PD, TS and others continue to expand and increase their market share year over year, with AC continuing to slowly retreat and diminish. WS's stated goal is 50+% of the domestic market -- once domestic growth opportunities for WS decrease, we will see increased focus on US and near-international markets (already happening, actually) and in 5-10 years likely a strong WS push for long haul Intl flights. The AC in 10 years will be a much smaller (relative) shadow of its current self.

Keep in mind that today's AC is a MUCH DIMINISHED shadow of its presence in the Cdn market to what it was 10 years AGO.
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multimark
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RE: Air Canada Struggling To Avoid Bankruptcy

Sun Dec 11, 2011 12:58 am

I wonder how deperate Jazz must be to find other sources of revenue than their AC contract. Pity they couldn't buy AA Eagle....   
 
JoeCanuck
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RE: Air Canada Struggling To Avoid Bankruptcy

Sun Dec 11, 2011 1:01 am

Any void left by the, (very improbable), fall of AC would be fairly quickly filled by others. For one thing, the staff and equipment would already exist...all they would have to do is be picked up by new owners.

Obviously, it wouldn't be quite that simple but there is no doubt that it would happen.

There is nothing particularly special about AC or what it does that can't be duplicated by others.

Basically, it flies planes full of passengers from one spot to another. Honing the fine points is mostly logistics.
What the...?
 
koruman
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RE: Air Canada Struggling To Avoid Bankruptcy

Sun Dec 11, 2011 1:05 am

I cannot imagine that the government would allow Air Canada to fail.

But additionally, in my own personal opinion if you live in a country with two widely spoken and official languages, yet can only be bothered to master one, you don't deserve to be employable by your flag-carrier, by the government or by any major corporation - not even as a janitor. Similarly, you're not entitled to a job as a pilot if you haven't trained as one. That's not discrimination - it's people excluding themselves from the employment market because they haven't bothered to become properly qualified.

I grew up in New Zealand and England, yet I can speak adequate French. How can people grow up in Canada and not manage this? And then consider themselves to be discriminated against? Is it discrimination if your child can't get a job because you never taught him to read?

The unilingualists (Anglophone or Francophone) deserve everything they get. And it seems to me that requiring one speaker of each language per flight does not go nearly far enough.

But I'd go further. The Canadian government actually shouldn't, in my opinion, consider bailing out Air Canada unless it becomes a far better corporate citizen in terms of bilinguality.

[Edited 2011-12-10 17:11:36]
 
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MarcoPoloWorld
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RE: Air Canada Struggling To Avoid Bankruptcy

Sun Dec 11, 2011 2:11 am

Quoting yyz717 (Reply 137):
Ummm, he was beeing sarcastic. Nothing wrong with some levity. If we wait for AC profits for a lighter mood...we'll be waiting forever!

Thanks mate!   
 
infinit
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RE: Air Canada Struggling To Avoid Bankruptcy

Sun Dec 11, 2011 8:46 am

Protectionism and a lack of competition breeds ineffeciency too. I remember all the protectionism levied by the Canadian government against SQ to protect AC till SQ pulled out of Toronto and Vancouver, leaving Canada for good
 
StarAC17
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RE: Air Canada Struggling To Avoid Bankruptcy

Sun Dec 11, 2011 9:13 am

Quoting infinit (Reply 182):
Protectionism and a lack of competition breeds ineffeciency too. I remember all the protectionism levied by the Canadian government against SQ to protect AC till SQ pulled out of Toronto and Vancouver, leaving Canada for good

IIRC the issue with SQ wasn't the number of frequencies and I think in the current bi-laterial they aren't frequency resticted (its essentially open skies) but there was a disagreement with transit points. If I have this right Canada didn't want SQ transiting at ICN serving YVR and Singapore didn't want AC transiting VIE when serving SIN.
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threepoint
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RE: Air Canada Struggling To Avoid Bankruptcy

Sun Dec 11, 2011 7:05 pm

Quoting yyz717 (Reply 177):
we will see WS, PD, TS and others continue to expand and increase their market share year over year

I will be very interested in seeing just how Porter manages to increase its growth much beyond current levels. Transat fills a charter niche that competes only on a very limited basis with the other three airlines you mention; their growth does not necessarily come at the expense of another domestic airline.

Quoting yyz717 (Reply 177):
WS's stated goal is 50+% of the domestic market -- once domestic growth opportunities for WS decrease, we will see increased focus on US and near-international markets (already happening, actually)

Their stated goals and reality may differ. I can't see this happening unless a major player disappears or WestJet enters a true airline alliance. Don't kid yourself: WS has been intently focused outside of Canada for years now and has launched (or launched and withdrawn from) plenty of US destinations. Their airplanes litter the tarmacs of Cuban, Mexican and Caribbean airports.

Quoting yyz717 (Reply 177):
Keep in mind that today's AC is a MUCH DIMINISHED shadow of its presence in the Cdn market to what it was 10 years AGO.

I'm curious to see the stats of AC's domestic market share in 2001 vs its share today. Please provide the support for your quoted "much diminished" claim.

Quoting koruman (Reply 180):
if you live in a country with two widely spoken and official languages, yet can only be bothered to master one, you don't deserve to be employable by your flag-carrier, by the government or by any major corporation - not even as a janitor. Similarly, you're not entitled to a job as a pilot if you haven't trained as one. That's not discrimination - it's people excluding themselves from the employment market because they haven't bothered to become properly qualified.

I grew up in New Zealand and England, yet I can speak adequate French. How can people grow up in Canada and not manage this?

Because they're busy conducting their personal and business affairs in Urdu, Cantonese, Farsi or Punjabi. And because the language of international commerce - like it or not - is English. There are vast tracts of the country where French is not spoken at all. There are still significant areas where it is very difficult to hear English spoken. In metro Toronto and Vancouver, Asian languages are the de facto second tongues behind English, particularly those from India and China. In northern communities, bilingual speakers converse in English and Inuk, not French. Or French and Cree without English. I know plenty of Canadians fluent in multiple languages, yet do not speak French. Many immigrants to Quebec don't learn English. Do we disenfranchise these highly talented people? By your assessment, we do: the YVR-based flight attendant who speaks flawless English, Mandarin and Japanese does not deserve to be hired at Air Canada, right? The YUL-based FA fluent in French, Spanish and German is presumably as equally unqualified.

We (rightfully) require immigrants to Canada to be able to converse in one of the official languages. Pick one or the other or both, you will be able to obtain official services regardless. And seeing as the federal government produces literature in many 'non-official' languages, it would appear that they don't necessarily share your point of view.

The point I'm making it that one of the effects of multiculturalism in Canada is that government-labeled 'official languages' often do not reflect the language spoken by the residents of a given area.

Our lazy, self-excluded, unemployable, ill-qualified, sub-janitorial citizens who do not speak both official languages make up about 83% of our population by the way.
The nice thing about a mistake is the pleasure it gives others.
 
Viscount724
Posts: 19316
Joined: Thu Oct 12, 2006 7:32 pm

RE: Air Canada Struggling To Avoid Bankruptcy

Sun Dec 11, 2011 8:03 pm

Quoting threepoint (Reply 184):
Quoting koruman (Reply 180):
if you live in a country with two widely spoken and official languages, yet can only be bothered to master one, you don't deserve to be employable by your flag-carrier, by the government or by any major corporation - not even as a janitor. Similarly, you're not entitled to a job as a pilot if you haven't trained as one. That's not discrimination - it's people excluding themselves from the employment market because they haven't bothered to become properly qualified.

I grew up in New Zealand and England, yet I can speak adequate French. How can people grow up in Canada and not manage this?

Because they're busy conducting their personal and business affairs in Urdu, Cantonese, Farsi or Punjabi. And because the language of international commerce - like it or not - is English. There are vast tracts of the country where French is not spoken at all. There are still significant areas where it is very difficult to hear English spoken. In metro Toronto and Vancouver, Asian languages are the de facto second tongues behind English, particularly those from India and China. In northern communities, bilingual speakers converse in English and Inuk, not French. Or French and Cree without English. I know plenty of Canadians fluent in multiple languages, yet do not speak French. Many immigrants to Quebec don't learn English. Do we disenfranchise these highly talented people? By your assessment, we do: the YVR-based flight attendant who speaks flawless English, Mandarin and Japanese does not deserve to be hired at Air Canada, right? The YUL-based FA fluent in French, Spanish and German is presumably as equally unqualified.

The majority of Swiss residents in the French-speaking part of the country don´t speak German, and vice versa, and the country is only 200 miles across. In the GVA area you will hear far more Portuguese, Spanish and Italian spoken (3 of the largest immigrant communities) than German.

LX requires flight attendant applicants to speak German and English fluently. If they also speak French (as many but certainly not all do), I think they get a salary bonus. Italian is of course also an official language in Switzerland but only spoken widely in one of the 26 cantons (states/provinces) that borders Italy.
 
WestJet747
Posts: 1950
Joined: Sat Aug 06, 2011 7:43 pm

RE: Air Canada Struggling To Avoid Bankruptcy

Sun Dec 11, 2011 8:51 pm

Quoting threepoint (Reply 184):
Quoting yyz717 (Reply 177):
Keep in mind that today's AC is a MUCH DIMINISHED shadow of its presence in the Cdn market to what it was 10 years AGO.

I'm curious to see the stats of AC's domestic market share in 2001 vs its share today. Please provide the support for your quoted "much diminished" claim.

About 6 months ago I read a report from late 2009 that stated the domestic market share for AC was approximately 76% in 2000, whereas at the time of the report it had decreased to approximately 55%. I can't find it at the moment to back up my numbers but I will continue to look...

Quoting threepoint (Reply 184):
Because they're busy conducting their personal and business affairs in Urdu, Cantonese, Farsi or Punjabi. And because the language of international commerce - like it or not - is English. There are vast tracts of the country where French is not spoken at all. There are still significant areas where it is very difficult to hear English spoken. In metro Toronto and Vancouver, Asian languages are the de facto second tongues behind English, particularly those from India and China. In northern communities, bilingual speakers converse in English and Inuk, not French. Or French and Cree without English. I know plenty of Canadians fluent in multiple languages, yet do not speak French. Many immigrants to Quebec don't learn English. Do we disenfranchise these highly talented people? By your assessment, we do: the YVR-based flight attendant who speaks flawless English, Mandarin and Japanese does not deserve to be hired at Air Canada, right? The YUL-based FA fluent in French, Spanish and German is presumably as equally unqualified.

We (rightfully) require immigrants to Canada to be able to converse in one of the official languages. Pick one or the other or both, you will be able to obtain official services regardless. And seeing as the federal government produces literature in many 'non-official' languages, it would appear that they don't necessarily share your point of view.

The point I'm making it that one of the effects of multiculturalism in Canada is that government-labeled 'official languages' often do not reflect the language spoken by the residents of a given area.

Our lazy, self-excluded, unemployable, ill-qualified, sub-janitorial citizens who do not speak both official languages make up about 83% of our population by the way.

This is an incredibly well-structured argument. I find many people from countries that have only one official (or widely spoken) language often have a great deal of difficulty understanding the language dynamics of Canada. Those countries also don't have anywhere near the level of multiculturalism that we do so it would be hard to expect them to completely understand.
Flying refined.
 
threepoint
Posts: 1294
Joined: Fri Oct 14, 2005 10:49 am

RE: Air Canada Struggling To Avoid Bankruptcy

Mon Dec 12, 2011 12:40 am

Quoting WestJet747 (Reply 186):
I read a report from late 2009 that stated the domestic market share for AC was approximately 76% in 2000, whereas at the time of the report it had decreased to approximately 55%.

Thank you, I look forward to seeing the numbers.
I wonder if the numbers quoted reflect the market share before or after AC's takeover of CP. Because that will make a significant difference in the apparent decline.
The nice thing about a mistake is the pleasure it gives others.
 
9252fly
Posts: 974
Joined: Thu Sep 22, 2005 7:19 am

RE: Air Canada Struggling To Avoid Bankruptcy

Mon Dec 12, 2011 12:56 am

Quoting threepoint (Reply 187):
I wonder if the numbers quoted reflect the market share before or after AC's takeover of CP. Because that will make a significant difference in the apparent decline.

I suspect those would be the combined market share total for both AC and CP. Today it would not surprise me to see that the figure being 51-53%. Back in 2000 my sense was that having 76% of the market was considered unacceptable politically,so it's no surprise the share has dropped to the level it is today,which seems reasonable.
 
WestJet747
Posts: 1950
Joined: Sat Aug 06, 2011 7:43 pm

RE: Air Canada Struggling To Avoid Bankruptcy

Mon Dec 12, 2011 1:12 am

Quoting threepoint (Reply 187):
Thank you, I look forward to seeing the numbers.
I wonder if the numbers quoted reflect the market share before or after AC's takeover of CP. Because that will make a significant difference in the apparent decline.

I could not find the exact report, but I was able to find a 2010 Globe and Mail article reflecting similar numbers here.

It also makes mention that the figure is from AFTER the CP takeover which makes sense.
Flying refined.

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