Moderators: jsumali2, richierich, ua900, PanAm_DC10, hOMSaR

 
HB-IWC
Topic Author
Posts: 4121
Joined: Fri Sep 22, 2000 1:09 am

EK Builds Europe With 3rd CDG - An Overview

Tue Dec 06, 2011 6:57 pm

Emirates Airlines of Dubai continues its expansion on its core DXB - Europe sectors. The latest installment of its network reinforcement drive is the addition of 4 additional weekly DXB CDG flights. These flights will be located in the airline's growing third European departure bank around 3am at DXB. The exact schedule of the new flight is as follows:

EK071 DXB CDG 0355 0905 B77W (4 weekly)
EK072 CDG DXB 1110 1940 B77W (4 weekly)

The addition of the new Paris flight in the third European departure bank comes on the heels of the addition of flights to Frankfurt and Manchester in that same departure bank, and thereby brings the number of Europe departures within this small bank to up to 5 daily:

EK007 to LHR at 0230 with B773
EK011 to LGW at 0250 with B772
EK021 to MAN at 0300 with A332, to be upgauged to B77W
EK043 to FRA at 0320 with A332, to be upgauged to B77W
EK071 to CDG at 0355 with B77W

It is not unreasonable to believe that EK will continue to build this third bank by adding further destinations, all of which are currently served by two daily EK flights already. Obvious candidates for such flights include FCO, MXP, ZRH, BHX, DME and even MUC, which has only recently seen one of its existing flights upgauged to A388 capacity. Also expected is the eventual deployment of the A388 on EK007 to LHR within this departure bank.

Parallel with the development of this third European departure wave, EK has been building connectivity by the addition of a number of Asia and Africa arrivals within the airline's main midnight arrivals bank. All of these flights connect reasonably well to the 3am tertiary European departure bank.

These European flights typically turn around at their destination airports in the morning and result in an evening arrival at DXB in the 7 - 8pm window. This arrival bank has traditionally allowed for little more than some regional connectivity, but even here EK has been providing additional connection options and it is expected that more such options will become available within the next couple of seasons, as more widebody capacity comes online and smaller aircraft will gradually move away from the main departure and arrival banks and will instead be used to further develop secondary hub movements.

The development of Emirates' European network has been nothing less than phenomenal. Within the last year, the airline announced the following additional flights within its Europe network:

Manchester - addition of 3rd daily flight
Frankfurt - addition of 3rd daily flight
Hamburg - additional of 2nd daily flight
Paris - addition of 3rd daily flight (from March 2012)
Geneva - new destination
Vienna - addition of 2nd daily flight
St Petersburg - new destination
Copenhagen - new destination
Dublin - new destination

Not yet announced but as good as certain is the addition of a second daily flight to Amsterdam from next summer. Other additions are in the pipeline. Apart from these new destinations and frequency reinforcements, the airline has also extensively upgauged existing flights to larger capacity aircraft and will continue to do so:

Heathrow - addition of a 3rd daily A388 flight, more to follow
Manchester - introduction of the A388, planned upgauge of the recently added 3rd daily flight from A332 to B77W
Frankfurt - planned upgauge of the recently added 3rd daily flight from A332 to B77W
Munich - introduction of the A388, planned upgauge of the 2nd daily flight from A343 to B773
Dusseldorf - planned upgauge of the afternoon flight from A343 to B77W
Hamburg - further capacity reinforcement to twice daily B77W
Paris - upgauge of the afternoon flight to B77W
Rome - introduction of the A388
Athens - planned upgauge from A332 to B773
Larnaca and Malta - planned upgauge from A332 to B772
Copenhagen - introduced with A332, upgauged to B772 and planned for further increase to B77W in 2012

By the start of the S12 season, Emirates will operate up to 50 daily departures to Europe, spread over 3 different departure banks as follows:

* morning departure bank with midnight return - 29 flights
LHR (2), LGW, MAN, GLA, NCL, BHX, FRA, MUC, DUS, HAM, CDG, NCE, ZRH, GVA, MXP, FCO, ATH, LCA-MLA, IST, VIE, DME, VCE, PRG, MAD, AMS, LED, CPH, DUB

* afternoon departure bank with morning return - 16 flights
LHR (2), LGW, MAN, , BHX, FRA, MUC, DUS, HAM, CDG, ZRH, MXP, FCO, IST, VIE, DME

* 3am departure with evening return - 5 flights
LHR, LGW, MAN, FRA, CDG

All of this will obviously not be the end of the Emirates story in Europe. In the next couple of seasons, we can expect this massive expansion to continue in a combination of the following ways:

* addition of new flights, almost certainly located in the primary morning departure banks - Stockholm, Brussels, Barcelona and a number of Scandinavian and Eastern European cities are all candidates for Emirates service

* addition of secondary flights to existing destinations currently served by just one daily flight - Amsterdam and Madrid seem the obvious candidates for such reinforced frequencies, with a departure in the airline's afternoon departure banks

* additional of tertiary flights in the 3 am departure banks as mentioned above - Rome, Milan, Zurich, Birmingham, Moscow and Munich are candidates

* introduction of larger equipment in the saturated morning departure banks to established European destinations with deployment of additional A388 capacity in that departure wave

* further reallocation of widebody equipment as new aircraft join the fleet with smaller equipment reassigned to build hub movements in development
 
mickey90
Posts: 63
Joined: Mon Nov 28, 2011 5:59 pm

RE: EK Builds Europe With 3rd CDG - An Overview

Tue Dec 06, 2011 7:50 pm

Quoting HB-IWC (Thread starter):
Manchester - introduction of the A388

They've been sending the a388 to Manchester for a while now.

Quoting HB-IWC (Thread starter):
Munich - introduction of the A388

They just started sending the a388 to Munich.

I just read on a380flights.net that EK will introduce the a380 on flights to DME starting 01-10-12.
It's better to be in the air wishing you were on the ground than being on the ground wishing you were in the air
 
Gemuser
Posts: 5124
Joined: Mon Nov 24, 2003 12:07 pm

RE: EK Builds Europe With 3rd CDG - An Overview

Tue Dec 06, 2011 7:54 pm

Quoting HB-IWC (Thread starter):
* morning departure bank with midnight return - 29 flights
LHR (2), LGW, MAN, GLA, NCL, BHX, FRA, MUC, DUS, HAM, CDG, NCE, ZRH, GVA, MXP, FCO, ATH, LCA-MLA, IST, VIE, DME, VCE, PRG, MAD, AMS, LED, CPH, DUB

Any chance for a second VCE flight?

Thanks for yet another insightful analysis of EKs hub operation.


Geuser
DC23468910;B72172273373G73873H74374475275376377L77W;A319 320321332333343;BAe146;C402;DHC6;F27;L188;MD80MD85
 
JU068
Posts: 2094
Joined: Thu Aug 20, 2009 8:23 am

RE: EK Builds Europe With 3rd CDG - An Overview

Tue Dec 06, 2011 8:22 pm

Quoting HB-IWC (Thread starter):
Athens - planned upgauge from A332 to B773
Larnaca and Malta - planned upgauge from A332 to B772

Isn't Athens operated by an A340-500?

As for Larnaca, great to see them send their B777-200. It's been a while since we saw something bigger than an A330-200. Before other Middle Eastern airlines entered the Cypriot market and before Cyprus' accession to the EU, Emirates used to operate ten weekly flights on a mix of B777-300 and A330-200.
 
A388
Posts: 8081
Joined: Mon May 21, 2001 3:48 am

RE: EK Builds Europe With 3rd CDG - An Overview

Tue Dec 06, 2011 8:30 pm

I wonder how Etihad's scheduling compares to that of Emirates, seeing that they compete with each other directly (if memory serves me well). Is Etihad's aircraft utilization similar to Emirates' aircraft utilization?

I have seen them both in Singapore, great looking liveries!!!



View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Roger Cannegieter - Curacao Aviation Photography
View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Roger Cannegieter - Curacao Aviation Photography




A388

[Edited 2011-12-06 12:34:44]
 
swallow
Posts: 183
Joined: Wed Jul 11, 2007 12:23 am

RE: EK Builds Europe With 3rd CDG - An Overview

Tue Dec 06, 2011 8:54 pm

As always, a really excellent analysis of EK flight ops.

The trend is clear from these data; EK open up a route with the 332/343, increase frequency, then upgauge to 77W and 388. It is a scary thought that in a few years, EK will be using 359's to open up routes, because in EK parlance the 359 is a small widebody!

Of interest is how they will manage increasing congestion at DXB, both with ATC and on the ramp, with JXB development running late

Does anyone know if they have managed to halt the slide in in-flight service? There was talk a while back of re-training crews and improving on-board service.

The EK train is coming to a station near you. Stay tuned.
The grass is greener where you water it
 
MIAspotter
Posts: 2939
Joined: Fri Nov 16, 2001 1:57 pm

RE: EK Builds Europe With 3rd CDG - An Overview

Tue Dec 06, 2011 9:09 pm

Quoting HB-IWC (Thread starter):
addition of new flights, almost certainly located in the primary morning departure banks - Stockholm, Brussels, Barcelona and a number of Scandinavian and Eastern European cities are all candidates for Emirates service

Hmm, when can we expect EK to finally arrive in BCN? SU12?

Either way, if I stay in BCN or move to MAD, I cannot wait to try EK.

MIAspotter.
Nos vamos de Vueling?
 
rjm777ual
Posts: 237
Joined: Wed Nov 16, 2011 11:32 pm

RE: EK Builds Europe With 3rd CDG - An Overview

Wed Dec 07, 2011 2:36 am

Interesting, thanks for sharing! I'd be willing to bet that in time, airports like CDG will see the A380 from DXB daily.
Greetings from Dulles!
 
User avatar
lightsaber
Moderator
Posts: 22664
Joined: Wed Jan 19, 2005 10:55 pm

RE: EK Builds Europe With 3rd CDG - An Overview

Wed Dec 07, 2011 3:33 am

First, thank you for your always interest analysis HB-IWC!

Quoting HB-IWC (Thread starter):
* 3am departure with evening return - 5 flights
LHR, LGW, MAN, FRA, CDG

With the additions of FRA and MAN, this 3rd bank is starting 'to get legs.' Before,

Quoting HB-IWC (Thread starter):
Obvious candidates for such flights include FCO, MXP, ZRH, BHX, DME and even MUC,

The debate of which cities to add will be very interesting.
MUC, FCO, and MXP I agree with strongly.
Question, does EK have the rights for more flights to ZRH and DME? If so they would obviously be candidates.

I'm a lot less certain about BHX. I would like to know your thoughts behind that selection.

Quoting Swallow (Reply 5):
Of interest is how they will manage increasing congestion at DXB, both with ATC and on the ramp

That would be why they are utilizing the 3rd bank which flies into a quiet time at DXB.   

Lightsaber
10 months without TV. The best decision of my life.
 
ekgold
Posts: 192
Joined: Mon May 30, 2005 4:30 pm

RE: EK Builds Europe With 3rd CDG - An Overview

Wed Dec 07, 2011 5:37 am

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 8):
That would be why they are utilizing the 3rd bank which flies into a quiet time at DXB.   

Quiet time??? have you ever been in the departures area at this time in the morning?? Anything but quiet my friend and given my experience, a lot of delays due to congestion. This time of the morning distributes a lot of European travelers heading to Africa, Sub Continent and Far East/Australasia that arrive on the midnight returns from Europe (29 according to HB-IWC) alone.
 
ekgold
Posts: 192
Joined: Mon May 30, 2005 4:30 pm

RE: EK Builds Europe With 3rd CDG - An Overview

Wed Dec 07, 2011 5:44 am

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 8):
I'm a lot less certain about BHX. I would like to know your thoughts behind that selection.

This route is regularly full and over booked on both daily flights. One of the best flights for upgrades for Gold Skywards members. Had many an upgrade on this flight. BHX has a lot of Sub-Continent based flyers going through DXB to points in India/Pakistan. A 3rd daily flight would be a given as far as i am concerned. It would definitely be on my list to get to Wales mid morning for the day rather than mid afternoon. Flying during the day is time you never get back in your life.
 
planejamie
Posts: 564
Joined: Thu Sep 15, 2011 8:41 pm

RE: EK Builds Europe With 3rd CDG - An Overview

Wed Dec 07, 2011 7:56 am

Oh christ, not more EK flights to Europe... it'll be 5x daily before long into some places   however, I guess the economy is picking up a little bit for them to be adding flights, so that's the only good I can draw from this (and believe me I'm trying!)
 
imiakhtar
Posts: 611
Joined: Sun Apr 02, 2006 3:35 am

RE: EK Builds Europe With 3rd CDG - An Overview

Wed Dec 07, 2011 8:42 am

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 8):
I'm a lot less certain about BHX. I would like to know your thoughts behind that selection.

Maybe it's got something to do with the 15% increase in passenger numbers on the route for EK 2009-2010. Just a thought.
Whatever happened to Leon Trotsky?
 
Cipango
Posts: 1498
Joined: Wed Jul 22, 2009 3:55 pm

RE: EK Builds Europe With 3rd CDG - An Overview

Wed Dec 07, 2011 10:04 am

Quoting mickey90 (Reply 1):
They've been sending the a388 to Manchester for a while now.

Its clear that they meant it had already started. Maybe re-read the sentence again.
Let's fly! Unless it's on a CRJ 200, then I'll stay down here.
 
User avatar
RyanairGuru
Posts: 8686
Joined: Wed Nov 01, 2006 3:59 am

RE: EK Builds Europe With 3rd CDG - An Overview

Wed Dec 07, 2011 10:43 am

Quoting EKGOLD (Reply 9):
Quiet time??? have you ever been in the departures area at this time in the morning?? Anything but quiet my friend and given my experience, a lot of delays due to congestion. This time of the morning distributes a lot of European travelers heading to Africa, Sub Continent and Far East/Australasia that arrive on the midnight returns from Europe

Isn't midnight - 3am the busiest time of the day at DXB?

Not only is it when the original bank that started them all (and still the biggest) flows through eastbound (leave Europe at lunchtime, arr DXB midnight, leave 2am) but it's also when the foreign (especially European) visitors are at their most active meaning that there is actually a lot more going on than just EK
Worked Hard, Flew Right
 
User avatar
Mikey86
Posts: 118
Joined: Sun Jul 03, 2011 11:51 am

RE: EK Builds Europe With 3rd CDG - An Overview

Wed Dec 07, 2011 10:47 am

WOW!!! Truley an expansive network. And the best airline to Europe from Australia. Does anyone know if they might de-link LCA and MLA. I am sure in the near future it would prove quite profitable in frequency, even if they downgrade it to a 332 again for both to test the individual non-stops then upgrade it to a 772 where demand sees fit.

Whats peoples views on this?
mikey86 - Greenslopes, Queensland
 
JU068
Posts: 2094
Joined: Thu Aug 20, 2009 8:23 am

RE: EK Builds Europe With 3rd CDG - An Overview

Wed Dec 07, 2011 10:54 am

Quoting Mikey86 (Reply 15):
WOW!!! Truley an expansive network. And the best airline to Europe from Australia. Does anyone know if they might de-link LCA and MLA. I am sure in the near future it would prove quite profitable in frequency, even if they downgrade it to a 332 again for both to test the individual non-stops then upgrade it to a 772 where demand sees fit.

Whats peoples views on this?

I think that LCA-MLA is a very high yielding route. It has three classes on it and usually First and Business are full. I remember reading two years ago that at that time Emirates carried 100,000 passengers between Larnaca and Dubai which means that at that time they transported on average 137 passengers from/to Larnaca. I guess that is not enough to have a dedicated route. Plus like this they have a 08:15 morning departure from Dubai and a 00:55 arrival which is perfect for connections, not to mention that they have passenger rights between Larnaca and Malta.
You can book a few days in Malta with Emirates for as low as €300 per person.
 
theobcman
Posts: 583
Joined: Sun Nov 14, 2010 11:16 am

RE: EK Builds Europe With 3rd CDG - An Overview

Wed Dec 07, 2011 11:07 am

I am flying LGW-DXB-BKK in Y in April '12 - how is in inflight service now ? Any improvements after reading reports of the decline in cabin crew services. Anyone flown recently ?
 
Cipango
Posts: 1498
Joined: Wed Jul 22, 2009 3:55 pm

RE: EK Builds Europe With 3rd CDG - An Overview

Wed Dec 07, 2011 11:14 am

Quoting theobcman (Reply 17):
Any improvements after reading reports of the decline in cabin crew services. Anyone flown recently ?

I always feel that if a person has one bad experience with the crew, you hear about that more than many good experiences. The crew have always (but once) been extremely good on all my flights with EK. The entertainment is great and in terms of airline food, EK is the one to beat.
Let's fly! Unless it's on a CRJ 200, then I'll stay down here.
 
theobcman
Posts: 583
Joined: Sun Nov 14, 2010 11:16 am

RE: EK Builds Europe With 3rd CDG - An Overview

Wed Dec 07, 2011 11:22 am

Quoting cipango (Reply 18):

Thank you sir - good news. I am & always was looking forward to it. Im on the 77W all the way & looking forward to seeing the 10 seats across for myself as it's much talked about on here.
 
KFlyer
Posts: 320
Joined: Mon Mar 19, 2007 1:05 pm

RE: EK Builds Europe With 3rd CDG - An Overview

Wed Dec 07, 2011 1:54 pm

Excellent as always, HB-IWC. Your articles have always been very informative and insightful !
The opinions above are solely my own and do not express those of my employers or clients.
 
User avatar
BasilFawlty
Posts: 939
Joined: Fri Jun 05, 2009 11:23 am

RE: EK Builds Europe With 3rd CDG - An Overview

Wed Dec 07, 2011 3:15 pm

Quoting HB-IWC (Thread starter):
* addition of secondary flights to existing destinations currently served by just one daily flight - Amsterdam and Madrid seem the obvious candidates for such reinforced frequencies, with a departure in the airline's afternoon departure banks

Slots for a second daily flight to AMS have been awarded already:

effective 01Jul12:
EK149 DXB-AMS 14.55-20.00 77W
EK150 AMS-DXB 2200-06.30+1 77W
'Every year donkeys and mules kill more people than plane crashes'
 
[email protected]
Posts: 16616
Joined: Sat Jan 13, 2001 6:29 pm

RE: EK Builds Europe With 3rd CDG - An Overview

Wed Dec 07, 2011 3:17 pm

Great analysis, HB! And thanks for the material.

Quoting BasilFawlty (Reply 21):
effective 01Jul12:
EK149 DXB-AMS 14.55-20.00 77W
EK150 AMS-DXB 2200-06.30+1 77W

Thanks for the update, Mr Fawlty, and I hope Sibil's well.
"Everyone writing for the Telegraph knows that the way to grab eyeballs is with Ryanair and/or sex."
 
HB-IWC
Topic Author
Posts: 4121
Joined: Fri Sep 22, 2000 1:09 am

RE: EK Builds Europe With 3rd CDG - An Overview

Wed Dec 07, 2011 6:29 pm

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 8):
I'm a lot less certain about BHX. I would like to know your thoughts behind that selection.

With the upgauge of a number of current A332 routes to larger capacity, I could see an A332 to BHX in the 3 am bank as soon as next summer. As far as I can see, the only obstacle is the lack of 2-class A332 frames. There is no way EK will make BHX a 3-class route, as it has apparently successfully done with MAN, which will soon be operated with three daily 3-class flights.
 
ZKCIF
Posts: 439
Joined: Sat Oct 09, 2010 8:18 pm

RE: EK Builds Europe With 3rd CDG - An Overview

Wed Dec 07, 2011 6:57 pm

What about the limitation of 7 flights a day to Germany? Or this thing does not exist?
 
overcast
Posts: 154
Joined: Wed May 11, 2005 9:12 pm

RE: EK Builds Europe With 3rd CDG - An Overview

Thu Dec 08, 2011 9:25 am

HB-IWC, It's interesting that FlightGlobal has a similar article, Great minds must think alike!

http://www.flightglobal.com/blogs/th...-further-strengthens-new-bank.html
 
PEET7G
Posts: 471
Joined: Wed Jan 31, 2007 10:00 pm

RE: EK Builds Europe With 3rd CDG - An Overview

Thu Dec 08, 2011 4:07 pm

Quoting ZKCIF (Reply 24):
What about the limitation of 7 flights a day to Germany? Or this thing does not exist?

Anyone feel free to correct me if I am wrong, but I think the limitation is on the number of destinations that can be served, but they can have as many frequencies as they like. I think EK would love to have access to other German cities, but under the current bilateral they can only add capacity to existing destinations.
Peet7G
 
timpdx
Posts: 700
Joined: Fri Jul 31, 2009 1:54 am

RE: EK Builds Europe With 3rd CDG - An Overview

Thu Dec 08, 2011 4:33 pm

God the flight hours are just awful at DXB, about as bad as India timings.
Flown 2018: LAX, ARN, DXB, ALA, TAS, UCG, ASB, MYP, GYD, TBS, KUT, BER, TLS, SVO, CCF, DUB, LGW, MEX, BUR, PDX, ORD, SLC, SNA
Upcoming 2018: STL, MIA, BZE, IAH, BHM, LHR, DFW, PHX
 
jacobin777
Posts: 12262
Joined: Sat Sep 11, 2004 6:29 pm

RE: EK Builds Europe With 3rd CDG - An Overview

Thu Dec 08, 2011 5:19 pm

Once again, an excellent analysis by HB-IWC   .

I did a quick Excel chart of the passenger growth rate of EK from 1997-2011, its at a staggering 1000%!  Wow!

Data taken from:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emirates_Airlines

Ostensibly, it seems the "EK train" is unstoppable. However, I believe that we'll be seeing a significant slow down in the growth rate of EK in the next few years. Whether it is the tail end of a "sigmoid curve" or the beginning the second part of a "double sigmoid curve", I don't believe EK will be able to grow in the future as it has the past 14-15 years. From market saturation, to competitors such as QR, EY (and others we don't usually discuss or know of), to global economic financial problems (which we are at again-this time, it might be as worse as before) - IMHO, we'll be seeing a slow down in the next 4-6 years (possibly even the next 2-3 years).

I'm not saying that EK won't grow, because barring something unforeseen, it probably will (but Dubai has its own financial problems however). What I am saying is EK will be approaching a slow down in the amount of pax it gains year-over-year.

How does that effect various fleet plans of EK, I'm not so sure. Certainly a large part of their order is for growth but I believe their XWB order (at least in part) is for replacement so I don't see a problem with that.

Clark has been on record stating that EK plans on deploying all of their 90+ A380's in the fleet.

"Emirates executive VP – engineering and operations Adel Al Redha said (16-Nov-2011) the carrier's deployment plans for the A380 are well established and it already knows how the 90 A380s it is to acquire will be deployed."*

*-CAPA

Add to their massive B77W order/fleet, and I just don't see how EK will be able to deploy all of their A380's, B77W's, ect. at the same time if what I believe happens.

Though both the A380 and 77W have been serving the EK fleet well and will continue to do so, I expect EK eventually deferring and/or canceling part of their orders with both Boeing and Airbus.   
"Up the Irons!"
 
User avatar
BasilFawlty
Posts: 939
Joined: Fri Jun 05, 2009 11:23 am

RE: EK Builds Europe With 3rd CDG - An Overview

Thu Dec 08, 2011 9:18 pm

Quoting [email protected] (Reply 22):
Thanks for the update, Mr Fawlty, and I hope Sibil's well.

   That little puff adder of mine is fine.  
Quoting PEET7G (Reply 26):
Anyone feel free to correct me if I am wrong, but I think the limitation is on the number of destinations that can be served, but they can have as many frequencies as they like. I think EK would love to have access to other German cities, but under the current bilateral they can only add capacity to existing destinations.

As far as I know that is correct. This also makes destinations such as FRA and MUC very likely candidates to get A380's in the near future.
'Every year donkeys and mules kill more people than plane crashes'
 
ACES320
Posts: 292
Joined: Sun Mar 07, 2004 9:50 am

RE: EK Builds Europe With 3rd CDG - An Overview

Sun Dec 11, 2011 12:45 am

Quoting theobcman (Reply 17):
I am flying LGW-DXB-BKK in Y in April '12 - how is in inflight service now ? Any improvements after reading reports of the decline in cabin crew services. Anyone flown recently ?

If you are booked n the 380 for the BKK you will be fine. I flew this route myself LHR-DXB-BKK on the A380 all the way and it was an experience like no other. On the returne leg I fle into LGW and the experience was not so good on the 77W. I am talking about leg room and IFE but the crews were truly amazing on all the legs. You should be fine.
LHR, BHX, EDI, BKK, USM, CNX, PHU, GRU,PEI, BOG, CTG, CPH, AMS, DOH, DXB, FRA, MAD and always PEI
 
gkirk
Posts: 23454
Joined: Thu Jun 15, 2000 3:29 am

RE: EK Builds Europe With 3rd CDG - An Overview

Sun Dec 11, 2011 9:37 am

Glasgow goes from a 2 class 77W, to a 3 class 77W. I'd also expect Newcastle to get the 2 class 77W released from GLA, to replace the A332 currently operating the route.
When you hear the noise of the Tartan Army Boys, we'll be coming down the road!
 
GBRandSYCguy
Posts: 28
Joined: Fri Jan 14, 2011 1:24 pm

RE: EK Builds Europe With 3rd CDG - An Overview

Sun Dec 11, 2011 10:16 am

We think it's so amazing that EK is expanding so fast but do we realise that they are killing off many unique airlines of the world? The latest casualty was Air Seychelles who after over 30 years of international service is being forced to close because it cannot compete alongside the Arabs airlines. Not everybody thinks the aviation world revolve around EK & DXB. In a few decades time the Arab airlines would have wiped off a good proportion of world airlines. This will eventually kill off commercial aviation as we know it in the long term.
 
gkirk
Posts: 23454
Joined: Thu Jun 15, 2000 3:29 am

RE: EK Builds Europe With 3rd CDG - An Overview

Sun Dec 11, 2011 10:22 am

Quoting GBRandSYCguy (Reply 32):
We think it's so amazing that EK is expanding so fast but do we realise that they are killing off many unique airlines of the world? The latest casualty was Air Seychelles who after over 30 years of international service is being forced to close because it cannot compete alongside the Arabs airlines. Not everybody thinks the aviation world revolve around EK & DXB. In a few decades time the Arab airlines would have wiped off a good proportion of world airlines. This will eventually kill off commercial aviation as we know it in the long term.

They're only doing what the likes of BA, LH, KL, AF,CO/UA, CX,SQ etc have been doing for many a year, and feeding pax through a central hub. Whats wrong with that?

Yes, its a shame to see the likes of Air Seychelles struggle, but they need to adapt to survive.
When you hear the noise of the Tartan Army Boys, we'll be coming down the road!
 
GBRandSYCguy
Posts: 28
Joined: Fri Jan 14, 2011 1:24 pm

RE: EK Builds Europe With 3rd CDG - An Overview

Sun Dec 11, 2011 10:42 am

Reliable sources has it that Air Seychelles is about to declare bankruptcy & shut down for good. All European flights are stopping in January instead of March like it was previously announced. The Seychelles government is telling people going to & from the Seychelles to travel on the Gulf carriers & have made a deal with EY to carry pax booked on HM's direct European flights such as LHR, FCO, MXP & CDG.
 
User avatar
lightsaber
Moderator
Posts: 22664
Joined: Wed Jan 19, 2005 10:55 pm

RE: EK Builds Europe With 3rd CDG - An Overview

Mon Dec 12, 2011 7:50 am

Quoting RyanairGuru (Reply 14):
Isn't midnight - 3am the busiest time of the day at DXB?

Bad wording on my part. These new flights are creating a '3rd European hub wave.'

Building on HB-IWC's previous excellent analysis:
Emirates At DXB - Ultimate Operational Analysis (by HB-IWC Sep 27 2010 in Civil Aviation)

Quoting HB-IWC (Reply 23):
As far as I can see, the only obstacle is the lack of 2-class A332 frames. There is no way EK will make BHX a 3-class route, as it has apparently successfully done with MAN, which will soon be operated with three daily 3-class flights.

I wonder how EK will equip the A359s. I suspect a greater fraction of 2-class.

Quoting imiakhtar (Reply 12):
Maybe it's got something to do with the 15% increase in passenger numbers on the route for EK 2009-2010. Just a thought.

Ok, BHX is doing better than I realized. Thanks.

Quoting RyanairGuru (Reply 14):
Isn't midnight - 3am the busiest time of the day at DXB?

   Hence why the 03:55 time seems like a good slot.
Emirates At DXB - Ultimate Operational Analysis (by HB-IWC Sep 27 2010 in Civil Aviation)

Looking at the above, 03:00 to 04:00 isn't slow, but it isn't as crazy as the prior hours. Hence why I think EK is using slack time. Same with the 19:40 arrival. It is not during one of the peak waves.

Quoting EKGOLD (Reply 9):
have you ever been in the departures area at this time in the morning??

No. I'm going from the stats. If 08:00 to 10:00 is able to push through the higher numbers they do... 03:55 seems like a less crazy time. Its not an idle time... but there should be some slack at that hour.

Lightsaber
10 months without TV. The best decision of my life.
 
hal9213
Posts: 202
Joined: Mon May 04, 2009 6:03 pm

RE: EK Builds Europe With 3rd CDG - An Overview

Wed Dec 14, 2011 1:12 pm

Quoting GBRandSYCguy (Reply 32):
We think it's so amazing that EK is expanding so fast but do we realise that they are killing off many unique airlines of the world?

So what? It should be an open market and the customers (passengers) decide. If they all want to ride an airline for whatever reason (be it price, quality, safety, national pride etc.), let them use that airline. Emirates has grown, because it has caught the popularity of the people, whats wrong with that?
Its only fair to say, Emirates deserves to expand after attracting and persuading so many customers. However, if they fail to keep up the promise and quality (and they are actually struggling with that due to the fast growth), if they fail to continuously attract customers, they also very well deserve to shrink and go bankrupt.

And note, that I am writing this with a German flag   But I am always on the customers side. I dont want to be forced to fly an airline however good or bad (or pay dearly) only because my government forces me to do so by restricting foreign airlines. Poor Canadians!
 
User avatar
BasilFawlty
Posts: 939
Joined: Fri Jun 05, 2009 11:23 am

RE: EK Builds Europe With 3rd CDG - An Overview

Wed Dec 28, 2011 3:25 pm

Aircraft type in the AMS slots has now changed from a 77W to a 388 starting 01Aug12. So if everything becomes reality the AMS summer schedule will look like this:

until 30Jun12:
EK147 DXB-AMS 08.25-13.30 77W
EK148 AMS-DXB 15.30-23.59 77W

effective 01Jul12:
EK147 DXB-AMS 08.25-13.30 77W
EK148 AMS-DXB 15.30-23.59 77W
EK149 DXB-AMS 14.55-20.00 77W
EK150 AMS-DXB 22.00-06.30+1 77W

effective 01Aug12:
EK147 DXB-AMS 08.25-13.30 388
EK148 AMS-DXB 15.30-23.59 388
EK149 DXB-AMS 14.55-20.00 77W
EK150 AMS-DXB 22.00-06.30+1 77W
'Every year donkeys and mules kill more people than plane crashes'
 
User avatar
lightsaber
Moderator
Posts: 22664
Joined: Wed Jan 19, 2005 10:55 pm

RE: EK Builds Europe With 3rd CDG - An Overview

Thu Dec 29, 2011 4:13 pm

Quoting BasilFawlty (Reply 37):
effective 01Aug12:
EK147 DXB-AMS 08.25-13.30 388
EK148 AMS-DXB 15.30-23.59 388
EK149 DXB-AMS 14.55-20.00 77W
EK150 AMS-DXB 22.00-06.30+1 77W

Is the block time really exactly the same? I'm used to slight difference in flight times between airframes.

If the above is EK's schedule, so much for 'long turn times' on the A388 (vs. 77W).

Lightsaber
10 months without TV. The best decision of my life.
 
kl911
Posts: 3981
Joined: Mon Jul 21, 2003 1:10 am

RE: EK Builds Europe With 3rd CDG - An Overview

Thu Dec 29, 2011 4:36 pm

Will Budapest see Emirates soon? Its one of the few EU capitals not being served at all. More and more companies are moving to Hungary to make use of the availability of highly skilled labour force and low wages.
 
User avatar
shamrock604
Posts: 2199
Joined: Wed Sep 19, 2007 11:27 pm

RE: EK Builds Europe With 3rd CDG - An Overview

Thu Dec 29, 2011 5:50 pm

Quoting kl911 (Reply 39):
Will Budapest see Emirates soon? Its one of the few EU capitals not being served at all. More and more companies are moving to Hungary to make use of the availability of highly skilled labour force and low wages.

I'm sure it is only a matter of time before EK commence BUD.

Here in DUB, it would seem that bookings for the new EK service beginning Jan 9th, have taken even Emirates by surprise. The route has already been upgraded to an A343 next winter season, and will apparently be upgraded again next december. The first two weeks were practically sold out weeks before the service even begins.
 
JU068
Posts: 2094
Joined: Thu Aug 20, 2009 8:23 am

RE: EK Builds Europe With 3rd CDG - An Overview

Thu Dec 29, 2011 6:17 pm

Quoting kl911 (Reply 39):
Will Budapest see Emirates soon? Its one of the few EU capitals not being served at all. More and more companies are moving to Hungary to make use of the availability of highly skilled labour force and low wages.
Quoting shamrock604 (Reply 40):
I'm sure it is only a matter of time before EK commence BUD.

I do not think Emirates will launch Budapest soon, at least not before they launch Warsaw. Let's not forget that Qatar already serves Budapest directly from Doha.
I heard somewhere that the loads are not crazy on the route with the average loadfactor being around 40% (I hope I am wrong though).

My guess is that when it comes to that region KBP and WAW are more likely candidates. VV already has an extensive network in Asia which means that there is demand.
 
User avatar
Zkpilot
Posts: 4611
Joined: Wed Mar 08, 2006 8:21 pm

RE: EK Builds Europe With 3rd CDG - An Overview

Thu Dec 29, 2011 6:59 pm

Funny how some airlines can get rights to fly 3x daily whilst others like QF were effectively made to abandon CDG because they could not be granted even 1x daily slots....
64 types. 45 countries. 24 airlines.
 
babybus
Posts: 2379
Joined: Sun Dec 28, 2003 5:07 am

RE: EK Builds Europe With 3rd CDG - An Overview

Thu Dec 29, 2011 8:17 pm

I'd love to chat to the marketing lads at EK and FR. How do they put such faith in such an increase in flight activity when other airlines won't? They must all be working from the same route analysis data surely?

What makes them launch new routes and increase frequency when other airlines don't? It amazes me.
and with that..cabin crew, seats for landing please.
 
User avatar
lightsaber
Moderator
Posts: 22664
Joined: Wed Jan 19, 2005 10:55 pm

RE: EK Builds Europe With 3rd CDG - An Overview

Fri Dec 30, 2011 3:21 am

Quoting Babybus (Reply 43):
I'd love to chat to the marketing lads at EK and FR. How do they put such faith in such an increase in flight activity when other airlines won't? They must all be working from the same route analysis data surely?

CASM, marketing, and other advantages.

Look at EK's aircraft utilization. They absolutely flog the 77W and A388.
Emirates At DXB - Ultimate Operational Analysis (by HB-IWC Sep 27 2010 in Civil Aviation)

Once they A340s and 772s leave the fleet (A359s), they should have an incredibly flexible and thus efficient fleet arrangement.

I'm personally surprised EK was able to expand to this level without Concourse 3. With that concourse, DXB will gain capacity for another 15 million, assuming airside constraints are 'worked around.'

Lightsaber
10 months without TV. The best decision of my life.
 
boysteve
Posts: 890
Joined: Sun Apr 25, 2004 7:02 am

RE: EK Builds Europe With 3rd CDG - An Overview

Fri Dec 30, 2011 10:47 am

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 38):
If the above is EK's schedule, so much for 'long turn times' on the A388 (vs. 77W).

At MAN the A388 is regularly turned round in ~1h40mins.

For EK the 2 class B77W can have upto 442 seats in total whereas the Y seat count on the A388 lower deck is 427 max so in terms of PAX de-planing and boarding again the A388 may have the edge!
 
airbazar
Posts: 10426
Joined: Wed Sep 10, 2003 11:12 pm

RE: EK Builds Europe With 3rd CDG - An Overview

Fri Dec 30, 2011 12:27 pm

Quoting gkirk (Reply 33):
They're only doing what the likes of BA, LH, KL, AF,CO/UA, CX,SQ etc have been doing for many a year, and feeding pax through a central hub. Whats wrong with that?

Nonesense. Those airlines have existed for many decades alongside many other smaller ones. Not only that, many other airlines have been created in Europe and in the US alongside the large network carriers. They all serve a sizable O&D market of their own. EK on the other hand has exploded into the scene with questionable funding and even more suspicious intentions, despite the absence of a market of their own.

Quoting hal9213 (Reply 36):
So what? It should be an open market and the customers (passengers) decide.

But that's the point. It's not a free market when there's only only option for passengers to chose from, because all others have been driven out of business. There is no such thing as a free market in the airline industry. Anyone who believes in such is being naive at best. On the business side, the only airlines that wish for a free market are those that don't have a market of their own.
 
David_itl
Posts: 6455
Joined: Wed Jun 27, 2001 7:39 am

RE: EK Builds Europe With 3rd CDG - An Overview

Fri Dec 30, 2011 6:38 pm

Quoting airbazar (Reply 46):
EK on the other hand has exploded into the scene with questionable funding

Care to elaborate on this given the only bit of money donated to them by the Goverrment of Dubai was in 1985? Of course, it would appear very strange for most Western observers to understand that airlines can run very profitable businesses especially when they are based far away from them
 
airbazar
Posts: 10426
Joined: Wed Sep 10, 2003 11:12 pm

RE: EK Builds Europe With 3rd CDG - An Overview

Fri Dec 30, 2011 8:03 pm

Quoting david_itl (Reply 47):
Care to elaborate on this given the only bit of money donated to them by the Goverrment of Dubai was in 1985?

The UAE is hardly free, democratic, and transparent. You and I however are free to believe what we want.
 
cmf
Posts: 3120
Joined: Sun Jun 12, 2011 11:22 pm

RE: EK Builds Europe With 3rd CDG - An Overview

Fri Dec 30, 2011 8:20 pm

Quoting airbazar (Reply 48):
Quoting david_itl (Reply 47):
Care to elaborate on this given the only bit of money donated to them by the Goverrment of Dubai was in 1985?

The UAE is hardly free, democratic, and transparent. You and I however are free to believe what we want.

  

Always someone who must believe it can't be that they are a well run organization.
Don’t repeat earlier generations mistakes. Learn history for a better future.

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos