Seems like a waste of money to me. The pushback driver is supposed to be keeping an eye on the wing walkers to see if they are displaying the stop sign, and the wing walkers are supposed to ensure they remain visible to the pushback driver at all times. Why screw up simplicity? I've pushed back my fair share of large aircraft and if at any time I was unsure, I stopped. Other than "brakes released cleared to push, ramp tower requests tail towards XX" and "cleared to start number 1" I can't think of much the pilot would have to say. They certainly don't have the view that that push back driver does of what is to the rear of the aircraft.


http://www.denverpost.com/business/ci_19477608

Quoting dxing (Thread starter): Seems like a waste of money to me

All it takes is one time out of 1000 for a wingwalker to quickly communicate a threat and it pays for the whole system.

Quoting seven3seven (Reply 1): All it takes is one time out of 1000 for a wingwalker to quickly communicate a threat and it pays for the whole system.

Or for that same time to be garbled or for some other reason lost in transmission and it will be that much more a waste of money. There is no profit in trying to re-invent the wheel.

If McDonalds and Burger King can make it work, Southwest should do fine with it.

I have always wondered why it has taken so long to go wireless and ditch the chord.

Quoting seven3seven (Reply 1): All it takes is one time out of 1000 for a wingwalker to quickly communicate a threat and it pays for the whole system.

Exactly, going to use the age-old quote, "if you think safety is expensive, try an accident"

Quoting seven3seven (Reply 1): All it takes is one time out of 1000 for a wingwalker to quickly communicate a threat and it pays for the whole system.

  

I think it's a great idea. It also reduces the risk of electrical shock to the tug driver in a thunderstorm.

What do you care if it costs the company a few more bucks? Or does it make your job more difficult? Is that what this is really about?

Just wait until its pouring down rain and those headsets short out. Or they will be left out on the push tug with the lighted wands and will be full of water after a downpour.

Chris

Quoting iad51fl (Reply 7):

I'd imagine FlightCom has thought about that. What better then a company from Portland, OR to design it?

This is a great idea as WN operates out of a lot of tight gates that are restricted to 737's only. Menzies SFO has been using wireless headset to the pushback driver for 2 years now and it seems to work. But for wingwalkers, that's just another upgrade and safety measure.

Southwest is also getting scanners that will fit on the rampers wrist.

Quoting wn676 (Reply 5): It also reduces the risk of electrical shock to the tug driver in a thunderstorm.

I think the gigantic 737 lightning rod is a bigger concern than a 6' cord.

I thought they weren't supposed to out pushing when there's lightning in the area?

Quoting JRadier (Reply 4): Exactly, going to use the age-old quote, "if you think safety is expensive, try an accident"

If you think technology is always the solution, you're asking for an accident. There is a reaon grenades still have pins instead of pushbuttons.

Quoting as739x (Reply 8): This is a great idea as WN operates out of a lot of tight gates that are restricted to 737's only.

Which is easier to understand, wands slowly coming together....or a voice saying "just a little bit more....just a little bit more...? I get the vision of Bluto in "Animal House" guiding Flounders brothers Lincoln Continental back into the garage. BAM!!! Ok that's good!

Quoting irish (Reply 9): Southwest is also getting scanners that will fit on the rampers wrist.

Well they are about 10 years behind some other airlines on that score, and about 15 behind UPS.

Quoting wn676 (Reply 5): I think it's a great idea. It also reduces the risk of electrical shock to the tug driver in a thunderstorm.

You're not supposed to use the headsets if lightening is in the area, you're supposed to employ a 4th walker and use...wait for it..hand signals!

These does nothing but add another measure of safety you will still use wands but you will be able to tell the huff driver what u see and why your stopping the push....Wow so they put a 4th person out there in lighting just one more so they can get struck...The ramp closes when lighting is in range of 10 miles.

Let's see if this unit would have been in use in PHL last year, how much would it have saved WN. If anyone remembers two A/c touched and the wing walker could not get the attention of the push back driver. A special hanger had to built temporary in PHL, A/C was out of service for about 3-5 months. Boeing flew in a new wing, the other wing had to be reskinned. Not to mention the loss of revenue and the cost of repairs. Did anyone ever get a total for the amount of those repairs. Few years back a vendor was pushing bluetooth headsets. That unit had a module that was plugged into the A/C and a long bright red ribbon was attached. I am wondering if this is the same or each A/C will have bluetooth in it. At the time each unit was about $800-900 each.

wow. So much wrong, so little time. This is all based on a few airports where you lose eye sight of the wing walker based on the complexity of the push. Also when we don't use head sets its because lightning is within 7 miles. We close the ramp at 3 miles.

Quoting dxing (Reply 11): Which is easier to understand, wands slowly coming together....or a voice saying "just a little bit more....just a little bit more...? I get the vision of Bluto in "Animal House" guiding Flounders brothers Lincoln Continental back into the garage. BAM!!! Ok that's good!

Nowhere in that story did I see any indication that hand signals, wands, any of the other systems currently in use were going to be dropped. My takeaway from the this is that it is an extra tool to use.

That being said, I've never pushed a 737.

Quoting ripcordd (Reply 12): ...The ramp closes when lighting is in range of 10 miles.

I don't now about other airlines but with WN the use of corded headsets is not allowed when lightning is within 6 miles and the ramp is closed if it's within 3 miles. There are warning lights around the exterior of the terminal, sets of two. One is yellow for 6 miles the other is blue for 3 miles, there is also an audible siren. All of the computer terminals also have a weather warning page that automatically comes up to let the people on the inside know the ramp condition.

737tdi

Quoting ripcordd (Reply 12): The ramp closes when lighting is in range of 10 miles.

Your ramp closes....other don't.some it is within 5 and it can't be sporadic..it was always up to the pushback driver as to if they felt safe with the headsets on. The headsets were the issue as lightening striking the aircraft could travel down the cord to the driver, the fourth would be in little danger with a big hunk of metal nearby.

Quoting GizmoNC (Reply 13): Let's see if this unit would have been in use in PHL last year, how much would it have saved WN. If anyone remembers two A/c touched and the wing walker could not get the attention of the push back driver.

Let's see, if the crew had been paying attention, which is kind of their job............or did that other plane just come out of nowhere?

Quoting chrisair (Reply 10): I think the gigantic 737 lightning rod is a bigger concern than a 6' cord.

That's exactly the point, people get fried when lightning hits the plane and they're plugged in. And if you happen to have a foot on the ground...

Quoting dxing (Reply 11): You're not supposed to use the headsets if lightening is in the area, you're supposed to employ a 4th walker and use...wait for it..hand signals!

Well dur, but there are times when lighting will strike in an area with little or no prior activity...the first hit within the airport's lightning detection area that closes the ramp is sometimes on the ramp itself. Honestly, I'm not saying their entire basis for purchasing the headsets was to prevent rampers from getting fried, but it's just one more added safety benefit. Our tow team has been using a wireless headset for a few years with no issues, and I think it's pretty cool that Southwest is taking it a step further and giving the wingwalkers headsets as well. Sometimes your attention is focused on one side of the aircraft for one legitimate reason or another, and if the guy on the other side needs your attention, it may take a couple of seconds before you notice. The headsets make this communication instantaneous.

Quoting dxing (Reply 11): Which is easier to understand, wands slowly coming together....or a voice saying "just a little bit more....just a little bit more...? I get the vision of Bluto in "Animal House" guiding Flounders brothers Lincoln Continental back into the garage. BAM!!! Ok that's good!

You can always call out distances. Or continue to use wands.

[Edited 2011-12-06 14:31:09]

Quoting wn676 (Reply 18): Sometimes your attention is focused on one side of the aircraft for one legitimate reason or another, and if the guy on the other side needs your attention, it may take a couple of seconds before you notice. The headsets make this communication instantaneous.

Sorry, don't want to sound condescending but I've pushed lots and lots of aircraft of all sizes and I've yet to run up on a situation where my attention was so focused on one walker that I completely ignored the other. I'm talking tight spaces, in the wind, rain, snow, and night.

If WN wants to spend the cash they certainly have it to spend but it seem as if they are re-inventing a wheel for no discernible reason.

Quoting dxing (Reply 11): You're not supposed to use the headsets if lightening is in the area, you're supposed to employ a 4th walker and use...wait for it..hand signals!

In that case, get the hell of the ramp. If there is lightning In the area, OPS will call everyone off the ramp.
That push can wait.

Anyway, we have used the wireless headsets, and I can hear a whole lot. Sometimes I hear the FAA tower. I hear the OPS tower, and sometimes I can even hear the flight attendants making their safety announcements.
I personally prefer a good working corded headset and working mic.

Quoting bcoz (Reply 15): Nowhere in that story did I see any indication that hand signals, wands, any of the other systems currently in use were going to be dropped. My takeaway from the this is that it is an extra tool to use.

Exactly!! Are there only 2 of us who read the article? I missed where it said anything about abandoning current practices. only that it will be a positive safety feature.

I HAVE pushed 737s...and I still aggree with you!

This could actually be a good cost SAVINGS and system equipment commonality initiative. As someone who has dealt with supplying ground communication equipment to g/o crews throughout our network, I can tell you plenty of tales where things got messed up and cost a bunch of money when it comes to these things.

There are 4 types of equipment that equal 2 combinations:

HEADSET WITH PUSH-TO-TALK
+
CORD WITHOUT PUSH-TO-TALK

~OR~

HEADSET WITHOUT PUSH-TO-TALK
+
CORD WITH PUSH-TO-TALK

Get a wrong combo and you will either have an open mic or double closed mic...either way you are going to have a pilot that isn't happy. By swapping out ALL headset/cords in the system for the new headset, everyone will have just one type, common throughout the system, which reduces the potential of having an incorrect combo.

Now, depending on which combo you have, the cord (let's say a 26 foot pigtail with the push-to-talk on it) will cost over $100 each. The headsets (lets say a standard one, boom mic, NO push-to-talk) will be around $300. One big issue is g/o crews "whipping" the cord out of the plane, which not only has the potential of damaging the cord and it's plug, but also the jack on the plane where the cord plugs into...and if you damage that, you're talking something REALLY expensive compared to the headset and the cord. Take the cord out of the equation (with a usage of a few hundred a year), you can be saving some money per year and making things more streamlined. Yes, the new headsets will cost more, but they can also be repaired. Currently, you have headsets (repairable) and cords (rarely repairable, typically B.E.R.) so you are paying to repair the headsets when they break AND paying for new cords on a regular basis. Take the cords out of the equation, and you are just left with repair costs on the headsets, which will probably have a warranty for a while too.

Sounds like a good idea to me, I wish WN good luck with it and look forward to feedback on how they're working out!

~H81

Sorry, this is nothing new guys. Wireless headsets have been in use for a while now. Sure, WN may be the first airline to go exclusively wireless, but the technology, its problems, and limitations, have been well known for quite a few years now.

Quoting dxing (Reply 19): If WN wants to spend the cash they certainly have it to spend but it seem as if they are re-inventing a wheel for no discernible reason.

Some bean counter probably saw a cost savings and pushed it through.

Having used the wireless headset, I can tell you that while it's a cool toy, there are no real safety benefits. It's simply a time saver in cases where push instructions change in the middle of a push. IMO, the benefits does not outweigh the cost.

Do they expect rampers to take care of this stuff? Give it till this summer and you'll see a headset junk bin at most WN airports.

Quoting dxing (Thread starter): Seems like a waste of money to me.

I agree, but...

Quoting seven3seven (Reply 1): All it takes is one time out of 1000 for a wingwalker to quickly communicate a threat and it pays for the whole system.

...this makes a lot of sense.

Quoting fxramper (Reply 24): Do they expect rampers to take care of this stuff? Give it till this summer and you'll see a headset junk bin at most WN airports.

Southwest will most likely take company badges at the start of the shift and hand you the headset. At the end you just turn it in and get the badge and swipe out.

Wow nice purchase WN ! One question: Will we still have to pay the $5 WiFi fee?

Quoting dxing (Reply 19): Sorry, don't want to sound condescending but I've pushed lots and lots of aircraft of all sizes and I've yet to run up on a situation where my attention was so focused on one walker that I completely ignored the other. I'm talking tight spaces, in the wind, rain, snow, and night.

Coming from someone who does push out these particular 737s everyday I agree..

These headphones will be great for about a month, until the wear and tear really sets in on them.

For all the mileage differences that have been posted this is clarification:

Sparky- The WN lightning system is activated with lightning is within 8 miles of the airport. At 8 miles no headsets are allowed. Ramp must use hand signals. At 3 miles the ramp is CLOSED.

RED •White and/or yellow lightning icons detected within the 3 mile ring

YELLOW•Lightning has moved back within the 8-mile range ring.

GREEN- day to day normal operations.

Quoting GizmoNC (Reply 28): For all the mileage differences that have been posted this is clarification: Sparky- The WN lightning system is activated with lightning is within 8 miles of the airport. At 8 miles no headsets are allowed. Ramp must use hand signals. At 3 miles the ramp is CLOSED. RED •White and/or yellow lightning icons detected within the 3 mile ring YELLOW•Lightning has moved back within the 8-mile range ring. GREEN- day to day normal operations.

To honest with you I had no idea that it was different station to station. Here in DAL it is strictly yellow and blue warning lights. I go down line quite a bit so I'll be more aware. I'm really kind of surprised that y'all have red due to all of the red warning lights on the terminal already.

Quoting 737tdi (Reply 29): To honest with you I had no idea that it was different station to station. Here in DAL it is strictly yellow and blue warning lights. I go down line quite a bit so I'll be more aware. I'm really kind of surprised that y'all have red due to all of the red warning lights on the terminal already.

It's not different. GizmoNC is speaking of the information on the computer screen in ops which tells them when to activate the blue or yellow lights outside.

Quoting dxing (Reply 11): If you think technology is always the solution, you're asking for an accident. There is a reaon grenades still have pins instead of pushbuttons.

Jim, why do you make a personal argument about it instead of arguing the facts? Must say that I don't appreciate that!

We use whistles, along with wands, here at TYS on the DL and UA ramp, cheaper and probably just as effective. But I would like to try the wireless headsets. One thing I would do is, take the microphone piece that you talk into and encase it in an earpiece like device so that when you are talking, it will help block out the surrounding engine noise, just like we used on aircraft carriers. Would not do any good to have a way for the wing walkers to talk and no one able to hear anything but loud noise. But that would just cost more money.

[Edited 2011-12-07 02:39:26]

Quoting JRadier (Reply 31): Quoting dxing (Reply 11): If you think technology is always the solution, you're asking for an accident. There is a reason grenades still have pins instead of push buttons. Jim, why do you make a personal argument about it instead of arguing the facts? Must say that I don't appreciate that!

In this case you and you're represent anybody or anyone, same as the word "you" in your quote meant. The one I didn't take personally.    No one wants to see an accident but the ramp is, and always has been, a very visual place.

Those of you who insist that this is just reinventing the wheel should remember that the wheel has been improved upon more than a few times. Should we still be driving around with Fred FlintSTONE wheels and wooden axles?

Accidents and incidents occur because of a chain of events occurring. Any time you can remove any one of the factors that lead to an event, you lower your risk.

Another great invention would be a mechanism that would physically force the wing walkers to actually cycle their necks and eyes from the wingtip to the pushback driver continuously. Far too often, gravity seems to take ahold of their heads and they walk aimlessly while ignoring the aircraft AND tug.

Quoting dreyes78 (Reply 30): It's not different. GizmoNC is speaking of the information on the computer screen in ops which tells them when to activate the blue or yellow lights outside.

Ahh, I should have read it more closely.

Quoting B6JFKH81 (Reply 22): One big issue is g/o crews "whipping" the cord out of the plane, which not only has the potential of damaging the cord and it's plug, but also the jack on the plane where the cord plugs into...and if you damage that, you're talking something REALLY expensive compared to the headset and the cord. Take the cord out of the equation (with a usage of a few hundred a year), you can be saving some money per year and making things more streamlined. Yes, the new headsets will cost more, but they can also be repaired. Currently, you have headsets (repairable) and cords (rarely repairable, typically B.E.R.) so you are paying to repair the headsets when they break AND paying for new cords on a regular basis. Take the cords out of the equation, and you are just left with repair costs on the headsets, which will probably have a warranty for a while too. Sounds like a good idea to me, I wish WN good luck with it and look forward to feedback on how they're working out! ~H81

Well put B5!
A lot of a.netters are like the people I deal with on the military side. They expend untolds amounts of energy trying to come up with reasons not to do something a different/new way because they're accustomed to the way they've done things for years. Some times new ways of doing things make sense if given a little time. I know this personally from the days I used to turn the wrench to being on the inspection side of the house today. And yes, I've marshalled/pushed heavy aircraft as well.

AT

Quoting aogdesk (Reply 34): Those of you who insist that this is just reinventing the wheel should remember that the wheel has been improved upon more than a few times.

You mean they have made the wheel more round?

Quoting aogdesk (Reply 34): Accidents and incidents occur because of a chain of events occurring. Any time you can remove any one of the factors that lead to an event, you lower your risk.

Conversely you can inadvertently add a layer that proves to be a distraction.

Quoting aogdesk (Reply 34): Far too often, gravity seems to take ahold of their heads and they walk aimlessly while ignoring the aircraft AND tug.

Conversely "what was the score of that game?" "holy smokes look at the blonde with the big boobs in the window!" can be just as dangerous.

Quoting airtanker (Reply 36): Well put B5!

Thanks, I try to bring my logic to the table when possible. Headsets/cords were a thorn in my side for nearly 3 years at my carrier so I know a lot about what goes into the research, procurement, distribution, usage and repair of them...I was thinking I could put together something a little logical LOL!

Quoting dxing (Reply 37): You mean they have made the wheel more round?

Quoting dxing (Reply 37): Conversely you can inadvertently add a layer that proves to be a distraction.

You appear to be one of those people that would rather find a thousand reasons why something can't possibly be done instead of giving something a shot because it really makes sense. If you think that a simple wireless headset adds a layer of distraction and should be avoided at all costs, that's your decision. I'd have to assume that you have a 3000' phone cord to drag with you all over your house too because cell phones are just too risky.

As for your "score of the game...girl with big boobs" argument.....I really don't get it.

Okay first off the wireless headsets are EXTREMELY expensive. The regular headsets that we use are expensive. $500-$800 depending on if its refurbished or new. So with that said, they must have some very careful ramp workers cause ones we got trash something new within a week. I push between 4 and 5 planes a day using headsets and have had times where the flightdeck has a problem and asks for you to bring them back in or pax getting kicked off. Also change of push instructions which happens all the time. You need to have direct contact with the fight crew. Another example is if you see something or hear something they might not know about.

So my point is you need headsets. One should always be in contact with the flight deck BUT buying wireless headsets is a waste of money. I have used them though and there great but for an airline like WN to buy them for there ramp agents. Not the smartest of ideas.

Quoting comairguycvg (Reply 32): We use whistles, along with wands, here at TYS on the DL and UA ramp, cheaper and probably just as effective. But I would like to try the wireless headsets. One thing I would do is, take the microphone piece that you talk into and encase it in an earpiece like device so that when you are talking, it will help block out the surrounding engine noise, just like we used on aircraft carriers. Would not do any good to have a way for the wing walkers to talk and no one able to hear anything but loud noise. But that would just cost more money.

There is a key piece of data here. If the USN is already using the technology on aircraft carriers, and it works to improve safety in a very intense and dangerous environment, isn't that sufficient to suggest it will enhance operations in a much less hostile environment at a civil airport? I have no personal knowledge of either environment, but if it works for the Navy I would give it a try on my airline if I owned one.

Quoting aogdesk (Reply 39): You appear to be one of those people that would rather find a thousand reasons why something can't possibly be done instead of giving something a shot because it really makes sense.

I am one of those people that say why spend the money when what you have works perfectly well if people just pay attention. As the article states, collisions on pushback are pretty rare. That would suggest that when there is one somebody was not paying attention as they should. More than likely it was the wing walker. A wireless headseat will not cure that.

Quoting aogdesk (Reply 39): As for your "score of the game...girl with big boobs" argument.....I really don't get it.

I've carried a radio around a ramp before and been subject to all sorts of chatter. Since the comment was made that some rampers look down at the ground instead of up at the wing (which makes me wonder what wireless headseats will do to improve that problem?) giving more people access to a radio means more of the uneccesary chatter.

Quoting aklrno (Reply 41): I have no personal knowledge of either environment, but if it works for the Navy I would give it a try on my airline if I owned one.

I don't think he is saying that the Navy is using them. He was speaking to the "talker" portion of the headset.

[Edited 2011-12-07 13:47:08]

Quoting irish (Reply 25): Southwest will most likely take company badges at the start of the shift and hand you the headset.

They can't. Company badges are required to be on a person in a SIDA area.

Quoting contrails15 (Reply 40): Okay first off the wireless headsets are EXTREMELY expensive. The regular headsets that we use are expensive. $500-$800 depending on if its refurbished or new. So with that said, they must have some very careful ramp workers cause ones we got trash something new within a week. I push between 4 and 5 planes a day using headsets and have had times where the flightdeck has a problem and asks for you to bring them back in or pax getting kicked off. Also change of push instructions which happens all the time. You need to have direct contact with the fight crew. Another example is if you see something or hear something they might not know about.

I looked about on the internet. Is this what you are referring to? These guys are offering it at $340, single unit purchase. I suspect a couple of hundred at a time would be a lot less.

http://www.envirosafetyproducts.com/...ss-headset-hearing-protection.html

Quoting dxing (Reply 42): I am one of those people that say why spend the money when what you have works perfectly well if people just pay attention. As the article states, collisions on pushback are pretty rare. That would suggest that when there is one somebody was not paying attention as they should. More than likely it was the wing walker. A wireless headseat will not cure that.

dxing: Not as rare as one would wish. We (WN) had multiple pushback incidents in the last couple of years, costing millions of dollars in repairs and lost revenue.

With that said I agree with you. If a wing walker is looking at the ground or generally not paying attention, a wireless headset/whistle/telepathy will not help!!! I believe accountability of the ramp agents, supervisors and station managers has to be enforced. Basically follow the MPM. If necessary, and I hate to say this, start firing people who are not obeying the MPM or the ramp agents references. The pushback driver is the person in charge of, and responsible for the safe operation of the push. If a wingwalker is not paying attention then it is the responsibility of the driver to stop the push.

I have worked flight decks of aircraft carriers, have pushed many flights (remember AMT's did the pushes at DAL until the last contract) here and still tow aircraft everyday. If I can/could not see the wingwalkers or I percieve a danger I stop. I can not emphasize enough about the responsibilities of the tug/pushback driver. JMO.

737tdi

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 43): They can't. Company badges are required to be on a person in a SIDA area.

At MCO they take your company badge for radio. I think they do this in BWI, and PHX to. Comair in CVG did the same thing for headsets and night wands

They tested these over the summer at SAN. I didn't get the opportunity to try them out, but my coworkers seem to like them. It allows the rampers and the flight crew to all be on the same page at all times during the push.

Quoting GizmoNC (Reply 13): Let's see if this unit would have been in use in PHL last year, how much would it have saved WN.

I've been told that's the very reason the company looked into this.

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 43): Quoting irish (Reply 25):Southwest will most likely take company badges at the start of the shift and hand you the headset.They can't. Company badges are required to be on a person in a SIDA area.

At SAN, we have to turn in our company badge at the beginning of our shift to get a radio.

Quoting 737tdi (Reply 45): With that said I agree with you. If a wing walker is looking at the ground or generally not paying attention, a wireless headset/whistle/telepathy will not help!!! I believe accountability of the ramp agents, supervisors and station managers has to be enforced. Basically follow the MPM. If necessary, and I hate to say this, start firing people who are not obeying the MPM or the ramp agents references. The pushback driver is the person in charge of, and responsible for the safe operation of the push. If a wingwalker is not paying attention then it is the responsibility of the driver to stop the push.

It drives me up the wall when I have a wing-walker who has their back to me and walks in a position completely out of sight. I've been in situations where I can't tell if I'm clear and I cannot get the wingwalkers attention. SO FRUSTRATING. While it's their bad for not doing their job correctly, having the ability to speak to them via headset would allow me to get their attention.

Quoting dxing (Reply 37): Quoting aogdesk (Reply 34):Accidents and incidents occur because of a chain of events occurring. Any time you can remove any one of the factors that lead to an event, you lower your risk. Conversely you can inadvertently add a layer that proves to be a distraction.

I can understand the unintended consequences argument. Added safety measures can lead to more recklessness. Seatbelt laws anyone?

[Edited 2011-12-07 23:04:27]