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PITrules
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Bloomberg: FedEx May Order 30 767s Next Week

Thu Dec 08, 2011 12:40 am

Here's the latest on this topic:

"FedEx Corp. (FDX) plans to order about 30 Boeing Co. (BA) wide-body freighters to replace older, less fuel- efficient jets at the world’s largest cargo airline, three people familiar with the matter said.

The order may be announced as soon as next week, said one of the people, who declined to be identified because the matter hasn’t been made public. Talks have ended with Airbus SAS, a Boeing competitor, the person said.
"

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-1...chase-of-30-boeing-freighters.html
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seabosdca
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RE: Bloomberg: FedEx May Order 30 767s Next Week

Thu Dec 08, 2011 12:44 am

Now the big question: will these be regular old 767-300F, or the much-discussed oddball 767-400F?

We have some members here who know, but may not share. I have no idea. But I'll guess that Boeing ultimately balked at the development cost for the -400F and sold -300Fs for a very nice price.   
 
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RE: Bloomberg: FedEx May Order 30 767s Next Week

Thu Dec 08, 2011 12:49 am

"A purchase of 30 767-300 freighters would have a list value of about $5.26 billion, based on the $175.4 million catalog price for the plane. Jet customers typically buy at a discount."

According to the article it'll be 763F. It's interesting how the 767 line keeps chugging along. Between the USAF tanker order and now the FedEx order, the 767 will grace the skies for MANY years to come.
 
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seabosdca
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RE: Bloomberg: FedEx May Order 30 767s Next Week

Thu Dec 08, 2011 12:49 am

Quoting dbo861 (Reply 2):
According to the article it'll be 763F.

I don't read that as confirmation of the type, just as the reporter's attempt to give the reader an idea of the deal's size.
 
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RE: Bloomberg: FedEx May Order 30 767s Next Week

Thu Dec 08, 2011 12:50 am

Quoting seabosdca (Reply 1):
Now the big question: will these be regular old 767-300F, or the much-discussed oddball 767-400F?

The linked report states they will be 767-300F models. Nice order for Boeing, they've had a good month or so here.
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RE: Bloomberg: FedEx May Order 30 767s Next Week

Thu Dec 08, 2011 12:50 am

Quoting seabosdca (Reply 1):


Now the big question: will these be regular old 767-300F, or the much-discussed oddball 767-400F?

While you are querying which model, why not through the 767-200 in there as well? It has the same payload as the 300, just less volume (volume not always critical factor on freighters) and lower operating costs.

[Edited 2011-12-07 16:52:11]
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RE: Bloomberg: FedEx May Order 30 767s Next Week

Thu Dec 08, 2011 12:51 am

Quoting PITrules (Thread starter):

"FedEx Corp. (FDX) plans to order about 30 Boeing Co. (BA) wide-body freighters to replace older, less fuel- efficient jets at the world’s largest cargo airline, three people familiar with the matter said.

The order may be announced as soon as next week, said one of the people, who declined to be identified because the matter hasn’t been made public. Talks have ended with Airbus SAS, a Boeing competitor, the person said. "

Why not just buy used ones and convert them.
 
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RE: Bloomberg: FedEx May Order 30 767s Next Week

Thu Dec 08, 2011 12:55 am

Maybe premature but congratulations to Boeing and the beautiful lady, the 767!
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dbo861
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RE: Bloomberg: FedEx May Order 30 767s Next Week

Thu Dec 08, 2011 12:57 am

Quoting eaa3 (Reply 6):
Why not just buy used ones and convert them.

The 763ERs on the used market aren't as young as they used to be, add that to the cost to convert to freighter and the fact that FedEx will receive an incredible deal from Boeing, why not order brand new aircraft? FedEx is known to operate aircraft until their wings practically fall off, they'll get many years of use out of these airframes.
 
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Stitch
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RE: Bloomberg: FedEx May Order 30 767s Next Week

Thu Dec 08, 2011 12:59 am

To my mind, the 767-300F makes the most sense, as it allows space for the A330-200(P2)F in-between. It also is a model Boeing already knows how to build, so it reduces risk for both Boeing and FX.

As to why they don't buy 767 conversions, they may very well do so down the road. I'm not sure what the used 767-300ER market looks like right now and both Bedek and Boeing/Aeronavali are working on conversion kits.
 
PC12Fan
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RE: Bloomberg: FedEx May Order 30 767s Next Week

Thu Dec 08, 2011 1:05 am

As a package freighter carrier, I'd be surprised if it wasn't the 764F.
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yyz717
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RE: Bloomberg: FedEx May Order 30 767s Next Week

Thu Dec 08, 2011 1:16 am

Quoting eaa3 (Reply 6):
Why not just buy used ones and convert them.

The 763 market is very tight with many carriers hanging on to their aircraft in part due to 787 delays. Plus with the mix of engines (PW, RR, GE) and ER vs non-ER it might be cost prohibitive to build or source a uniform used fleet. It's possible FX will add used 763's down the line to their new-build fleet as they did with their M11, D10, A300 fleets.

Quoting PC12Fan (Reply 10):
As a package freighter carrier, I'd be surprised if it wasn't the 764F.

Good arguments for both 763F and 764F. We will see.  
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RE: Bloomberg: FedEx May Order 30 767s Next Week

Thu Dec 08, 2011 1:57 am

Quoting Gunsontheroof (Reply 4):
The linked report states they will be 767-300F models.

Huh?

All I see is:

Quote:

A purchase of 30 767-300 freighters would have a list value of about $5.26 billion, based on the $175.4 million catalog price for the plane.

Which is akin to saying "a purchase of 30 Cessna 172s would have a list value of ...". Factual, but far from definitive.
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RE: Bloomberg: FedEx May Order 30 767s Next Week

Thu Dec 08, 2011 2:00 am

Quoting RoseFlyer (Reply 5):
While you are querying which model, why not through the 767-200 in there as well? It has the same payload as the 300, just less volume (volume not always critical factor on freighters) and lower operating costs.

Volume is by far and away Fedex's #1 concern. Hence why they will be 767-400Fs or not a 767 at all.

Quoting Stitch (Reply 9):
To my mind, the 767-300F makes the most sense, as it allows space for the A330-200(P2)F in-between. It also is a model Boeing already knows how to build, so it reduces risk for both Boeing and FX.

Aye, but they don't need a plane of that size. They're flush with AB6s.

They need 764 sized planes to eventually provide lift where MD-10s are running out of life.

NS

[Edited 2011-12-07 18:02:03]
 
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Stitch
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RE: Bloomberg: FedEx May Order 30 767s Next Week

Thu Dec 08, 2011 2:05 am

The 767-300F is the only current new-build 767 freighter platform model available (since I believe the 767-2C is currently just available for military sales) so it stands to reason that is what media outlets would quote.

Boeing was offering FX an epic deal on the 767-400ERF to keep the A330-200 at bay, but I thought our FX employee-members had mentioned in the various 767-400ERF threads that the plane wasn't really a good MD-10 replacement due to pallet dimensioning and therefore the A330-200 looked much better in that role.

So if I had to put money down, it would be a 767-300F order as the first wave of A300 and A310 replacements. Then when FX decides to start replacing MD-10s, they would revisit the 767-400ERF and A330-200(P2)F.
 
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RE: Bloomberg: FedEx May Order 30 767s Next Week

Thu Dec 08, 2011 2:06 am

Quoting gigneil (Reply 13):
They need 764 sized planes to eventually provide lift where MD-10s are running out of life.

Would the 777F not help in that case? How many of those are on order/delivered? Is it just more airplane than needed to fill the role?
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gigneil
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RE: Bloomberg: FedEx May Order 30 767s Next Week

Thu Dec 08, 2011 2:08 am

The 777 is WAY too big for that, not to mention expensive.

They have oh a hundred or two DC/MD-10s with only 30 777Fs (45 with options) on order.


Quoting Stitch (Reply 14):
So if I had to put money down, it would be a 767-300F order as the first wave of A300 and A310 replacements.

Do you really think those planes need replacing before the MD-10s?

NS
 
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RE: Bloomberg: FedEx May Order 30 767s Next Week

Thu Dec 08, 2011 2:13 am

Quoting airportugal310 (Reply 15):
Would the 777F not help in that case?

The 777F is overdesigned for that role with its 5000+ nm of range. It's also very very expensive. So it makes more sense to buy 777Fs only for the more difficult MD-11 missions and for new transpacific missions.

Almost anything else available right now (767F, A332F, even the existing A306F fleet) will get FX more capability for the money in the MD-10 role.

Quoting Stitch (Reply 14):
So if I had to put money down, it would be a 767-300F order as the first wave of A300 and A310 replacements. Then when FX decides to start replacing MD-10s, they would revisit the 767-400ERF and A330-200(P2)F.

Sounds reasonable, except that the MD-10s would seem to need replacing much more urgently than the buses.
 
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RE: Bloomberg: FedEx May Order 30 767s Next Week

Thu Dec 08, 2011 2:13 am

Quoting gigneil (Reply 16):
Do you really think those planes need replacing before the MD-10s?

I suppose that depends on how much extra life the MD-10 upgrade gave to the frames.
 
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RE: Bloomberg: FedEx May Order 30 767s Next Week

Thu Dec 08, 2011 2:20 am

None atall in terms of cycles...

NS
 
gigneil
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RE: Bloomberg: FedEx May Order 30 767s Next Week

Thu Dec 08, 2011 2:29 am

Okay, Stitch, you're right. I was wrong.

NS
 
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RE: Bloomberg: FedEx May Order 30 767s Next Week

Thu Dec 08, 2011 2:53 am

Quoting gigneil (Reply 16):
Quoting Stitch (Reply 14):
So if I had to put money down, it would be a 767-300F order as the first wave of A300 and A310 replacements.

Do you really think those planes need replacing before the MD-10s?

The 310 fleet is already being drawn down. From a peak of 54, they now operate 44. 9 of the 10 retirees have been the older and shorter range 312's.

They currently operate 73 MD10's (57 -10s and 16 -30s).

Source: atdb.org
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sxf24
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RE: Bloomberg: FedEx May Order 30 767s Next Week

Thu Dec 08, 2011 3:10 am

The order will be for 767-300Fs, not some new 767 variant. While 30 is a nice order for Boeing, it is far from enough planes to justify any investment in the line.
 
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RE: Bloomberg: FedEx May Order 30 767s Next Week

Thu Dec 08, 2011 3:15 am

Hopefully it will be for the -400F/ERF (dont know how they will name it), however, I would not be suppised if it was for a mixed order.

I think there is a strong case for the -400F/ERF especially if they can sign up UPS and Qatar Airways and other 767 airlines like LAN.

Qatar pretty much said last month to Airbus if they didnt launch the conversion program they were going to get 767's. However i cant remember if they would go the conversion route or new aircraft. However if its hard for FedEx to source 767's, i think the same would be true for Qatar.

I thought the order was supposed to be in the range of 80 aircraft based off the very first indictations we got from flightglobal and the 767-400F/ERF back over the summer? Maybe this will be only the first of multiple orders for FedEx.
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MarcoPoloWorld
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RE: Bloomberg: FedEx May Order 30 767s Next Week

Thu Dec 08, 2011 3:18 am

Puzzling.... Why order yesterday's aircraft?

Oh wait, the USAF already did!....   
 
dbo861
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RE: Bloomberg: FedEx May Order 30 767s Next Week

Thu Dec 08, 2011 3:25 am

Quoting sxf24 (Reply 22):
While 30 is a nice order for Boeing, it is far from enough planes to justify any investment in the line.

Pardon my ignorance, but how much investment would be required to spin up a 764F line? They're not designing an all new airframe. Couldn't they just slap a cargo door on the side and beef up the floor beams? Throw in a few test flights, re-write the manuals...obvously there's more to it than this, but would a 30 frame order be cost prohibitive? The prototypes could probably be turned around and operated by FedEx. For 30 airframes, and possible future orders from FedEx or other cargo carriers, it seems like the 764F would be a nice alternative to the A332F or a step between the 763-ERF and the 772F.

On a side note, I would love to see more 764s flying around
 
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RE: Bloomberg: FedEx May Order 30 767s Next Week

Thu Dec 08, 2011 3:26 am

Quoting MarcoPoloWorld (Reply 24):
Puzzling.... Why order yesterday's aircraft?

Oh wait, the USAF already did!....

At least they are new build yesterdays, as opposed to 50 year old T38s, B52s etc etc  
 
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RE: Bloomberg: FedEx May Order 30 767s Next Week

Thu Dec 08, 2011 3:28 am

Quoting Stitch (Reply 14):
The 767-300F is the only current new-build 767 freighter platform model available (since I believe the 767-2C is currently just available for military sales) so it stands to reason that is what media outlets would quote.

I have read that Boeing and the US government are planning for commercial sales to pay a significant chunk of the development costs for the new tanker.

http://www.flightglobal.com/news/art...-identity-of-kc-46a-tanker-357700/

The above article discusses the commercial freighter that will be the core of the new tanker. Perhaps Fedex   will be the first customer.

http://www.airforce-magazine.com/Fea...ization/Pages/box101711tanker.aspx

The above article describes it as a commercial derivative.

I read the articles to mean that the 767-2C will be sold to industry for commercial operation. The tankers will go to Wichita to be modified for military use.

David
 
gigneil
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RE: Bloomberg: FedEx May Order 30 767s Next Week

Thu Dec 08, 2011 3:46 am

Stitch is gonna win his bet.

NS
 
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RE: Bloomberg: FedEx May Order 30 767s Next Week

Thu Dec 08, 2011 3:58 am

Quoting MarcoPoloWorld (Reply 24):
Puzzling.... Why order yesterday's aircraft?

Oh wait, the USAF already did!....

I was thinking these airframes could be around long enough to see a large leap in engine technology with a large gain in fuel consumption.

Is this realistic or just a case of tried and true aircraft?

Jeff
 
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RE: Bloomberg: FedEx May Order 30 767s Next Week

Thu Dec 08, 2011 4:05 am

Quoting dbo861 (Reply 2):
It's interesting how the 767 line keeps chugging along. Between the USAF tanker order and now the FedEx order, the 767 will grace the skies for MANY years to come.

A question not intended to hijack this thread but I think germane to it: Is there any chance Boeing might consider doing an NG on the 767 if the line keeps garnering orders? It doesn't have to be a huge improvement a la 737NG, just some tweaking and weight saving measures.
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RE: Bloomberg: FedEx May Order 30 767s Next Week

Thu Dec 08, 2011 4:14 am

Quoting dbo861 (Reply 25):
Pardon my ignorance, but how much investment would be required to spin up a 764F line? They're not designing an all new airframe. Couldn't they just slap a cargo door on the side and beef up the floor beams? Throw in a few test flights, re-write the manuals...obvously there's more to it than this, but would a 30 frame order be cost prohibitive? The prototypes could probably be turned around and operated by FedEx. For 30 airframes, and possible future orders from FedEx or other cargo carriers, it seems like the 764F would be a nice alternative to the A332F or a step between the 763-ERF and the 772F.

Hundreds of millions of dollars. I am quite confident that FX is not willing to pay much for the aircraft, particularly when Airbus is willing to take zero margin on its aircraft and the availability of used freighters is rapidly growing.
 
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Stitch
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RE: Bloomberg: FedEx May Order 30 767s Next Week

Thu Dec 08, 2011 4:21 am

Quoting MarcoPoloWorld (Reply 24):
Puzzling.... Why order yesterday's aircraft?

Because it's still a great performer in it's market. The 767-300F offers more capacity and payload lift than the A300 and A310 freighters, but is still closer in size to them than the A330-200F.



Quoting sxf24 (Reply 22):
While 30 is a nice order for Boeing, it is far from enough planes to justify any investment in the line.
Quoting dbo861 (Reply 25):
Pardon my ignorance, but how much investment would be required to spin up a 764F line?

If we're talking about investment in the 767 production line, Boeing's already spent the money.  

Tthe new FAL in 40-32 can handle assembly of two 767s at a time and will be able to support production rates of more than two airframes per month (it's currently moving to 1.5 per month from the 1 per month of the old FAL).



Quoting diverdave (Reply 27):
I have read that Boeing and the US government are planning for commercial sales to pay a significant chunk of the development costs for the new tanker.

That is the plan, but as of yet, it has not yet been granted Authority to Offer to civilian operators so it's not officially available for sale at this time.
 
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RE: Bloomberg: FedEx May Order 30 767s Next Week

Thu Dec 08, 2011 4:32 am

Quoting Stitch (Reply 32):
Because it's still a great performer in it's market. The 767-300F offers more capacity and payload lift than the A300 and A310 freighters, but is still closer in size to them than the A330-200F.


Ok.
 
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RE: Bloomberg: FedEx May Order 30 767s Next Week

Thu Dec 08, 2011 4:38 am

Quoting sxf24 (Reply 31):
Hundreds of millions of dollars. I am quite confident that FX is not willing to pay much for the aircraft, particularly when Airbus is willing to take zero margin on its aircraft and the availability of used freighters is rapidly growing.


I think FX could easily take up to 120 764F's. They previously stated 80 for MD-10 replacement. Another 40 or so for the A310's and then you have the A300 which stand at around 70. Now IIRC, the A300's are still relatively new (didn't they get the last one produced?), but eventually they could be replaced late in the decade if Fx wanted a simplified fleet.
Even at 120, lets just assume they would pay the same as a -300F, that is still 18 billion dollars worth of aircraft, which would easily cover the costs of certifying the 764F.

Realistically, we could see a fleet of ~200 767's in the fleet by the time they would stop taking delivery of them. I would assume it would be a combo of both -300F's and -400F's though. The only thing holding that back would financing it all.

Imagine that fleet commonality though. 757/767 and 777. They might even go for a 767/777 comman TC while they are at it which would make it even more attractive for other carriers.
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RE: Bloomberg: FedEx May Order 30 767s Next Week

Thu Dec 08, 2011 4:39 am

Quoting redflyer (Reply 30):
A question not intended to hijack this thread but I think germane to it: Is there any chance Boeing might consider doing an NG on the 767 if the line keeps garnering orders? It doesn't have to be a huge improvement a la 737NG, just some tweaking and weight saving measures.

No. Wasn't there just a thread about that?
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RE: Bloomberg: FedEx May Order 30 767s Next Week

Thu Dec 08, 2011 4:56 am

Quoting sxf24 (Reply 22):
While 30 is a nice order for Boeing, it is far from enough planes to justify any investment in the line.

I suppose that is the point - minimal investment to get some orders till the USAF orders start flowing.

But there's no reason to think a 767-400F is a large investment.

Quoting redflyer (Reply 30):
Is there any chance Boeing might consider doing an NG on the 767 if the line keeps garnering orders?

Not really. If the USAF order results in a better P&W engine, I can imagine FX would be allowed to order it, outside of that, I can't think that there is much that can be leveraged.

Let's remember the way Boeing won the USAF order was through very strict controls on cost. It's not like there is a huge set of improvements that FX or anyone else is going to get via the USAF order.
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RE: Bloomberg: FedEx May Order 30 767s Next Week

Thu Dec 08, 2011 5:15 am

Quoting gigneil (Reply 13):
Volume is by far and away Fedex's #1 concern. Hence why they will be 767-400Fs or not a 767 at all.

This is how I'm leaning. The volume of the 764 is closer to the MD10 than the 763 is. It may not be as wide, but it is quite a bit longer than the MD10 so with the proper ULD load it could very well be a nice replacement.

Quoting Stitch (Reply 14):
Boeing was offering FX an epic deal on the 767-400ERF to keep the A330-200 at bay, but I thought our FX employee-members had mentioned in the various 767-400ERF threads that the plane wasn't really a good MD-10 replacement due to pallet dimensioning and therefore the A330-200 looked much better in that role.

I thought most of the argument was 763F vs A332. In any case, I also remember someone mentioning FX performing fit tests for new ULDs, in which case this sounds like a 767-x order as the 332 could probably take the current FX container configuration they use on the A300.

Quoting gigneil (Reply 16):
The 777 is WAY too big for that, not to mention expensive.

They have oh a hundred or two DC/MD-10s with only 30 777Fs (45 with options) on order.

Yup. The 777 only makes sense when it has a clear advantage over the MD11, and that is generally in the range differential. When you get right down to it, the market at this point for the 777 to be cost effective is quite finite. There are only so many markets that demand that kind of volume, nonstop from MEM.

Quoting gigneil (Reply 16):
Do you really think those planes need replacing before the MD-10s?

From what I heard the A310 will be affected by this order. I'm guessing the A310 fleet is being squeezed on both sides in terms of how badly they are needed, with the expansion of the 757 fleet and the MD11 coming back to domestic as the 777 takes over long-haul. The A310 is also labor-intensive for its payload, needing the same ground crew as an MD10 while only providing a fraction of the capacity. The A310 has one of the highest rates of aircraft strikes in the fleet, as well. That costs plenty.

Quoting yyz717 (Reply 21):
They currently operate 73 MD10's (57 -10s and 16 -30s).

The -30s will be the first to go from what I'm hearing. FX has already been retiring them in favor of the -10, this will probably speed up the process.
 
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yyz717
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RE: Bloomberg: FedEx May Order 30 767s Next Week

Thu Dec 08, 2011 5:17 am

Quoting sxf24 (Reply 22):
The order will be for 767-300Fs, not some new 767 variant. While 30 is a nice order for Boeing, it is far from enough planes to justify any investment in the line.
Quoting dbo861 (Reply 25):
Pardon my ignorance, but how much investment would be required to spin up a 764F line? They're not designing an all new airframe. Couldn't they just slap a cargo door on the side and beef up the floor beams? Throw in a few test flights, re-write the manuals...obvously there's more to it than this, but would a 30 frame order be cost prohibitive?

If Fedex finds the 764F far more attractive, they could share or pay for most of the development & testing costs themselves. Don't assume Boeing would cover this cost themselves. Depends who wants the 764F developed more...Boeing or Fedex. The larger the order.....the more likely Boeing will cover the development costs.

Quoting flightsimer (Reply 34):
I think FX could easily take up to 120 764F's. They previously stated 80 for MD-10 replacement. Another 40 or so for the A310's and then you have the A300 which stand at around 70.

Agreed. Replace the 310, 300 and MD10 fleet with one type, plus have common type rating with the 752F fleet. It would acgtually take about 175 764F to replace all 3 types. Realistically though, the new build A300's aren't going anywhere for a while.
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HPRamper
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RE: Bloomberg: FedEx May Order 30 767s Next Week

Thu Dec 08, 2011 5:29 am

Quoting yyz717 (Reply 38):
Agreed. Replace the 310, 300 and MD10 fleet with one type, plus have common type rating with the 752F fleet. It would acgtually take about 175 764F to replace all 3 types. Realistically though, the new build A300's aren't going anywhere for a while.

The 764F is waaaay too much plane for an A310 replacement. Even the 763F would be a stretch, although it could be viable to replace the A300. However, I don't think that is in the cards quite yet.
 
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lightsaber
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RE: Bloomberg: FedEx May Order 30 767s Next Week

Thu Dec 08, 2011 5:40 am

Which engine?!?

Quoting gigneil (Reply 13):
Volume is by far and away Fedex's #1 concern.

   But this looks to be the expedient order. I suspect the 764F will happen, but at a later time.

Quoting diverdave (Reply 27):
I have read that Boeing and the US government are planning for commercial sales to pay a significant chunk of the development costs for the new tanker.

More precisely, Boeing underbid on the program. In order for Boeing to have a chance of making a profit on the tanker, the production rate must be increased. Both before tanker production starts and while initial tanker production is ongoing. As already noted:

Quoting Stitch (Reply 32):
Tthe new FAL in 40-32 can handle assembly of two 767s at a time and will be able to support production rates of more than two airframes per month (it's currently moving to 1.5 per month from the 1 per month of the old FAL).

   I've read (IIRC) the line should be able to surge to 2.5 to 3.0 per month. If FedEx does replace the MD-10s, that would be a nice size order that would really help the economies of scale of 767 production.

Quoting flightsimer (Reply 34):
Realistically, we could see a fleet of ~200 767's in the fleet by the time they would stop taking delivery of them.

With Asian growth, I would agree, just 200+.  

Lightsaber
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Drewski2112
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RE: Bloomberg: FedEx May Order 30 767s Next Week

Thu Dec 08, 2011 5:40 am

The FedEx Global Express spent a few hours at BFI today...
 
N747PE
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RE: Bloomberg: FedEx May Order 30 767s Next Week

Thu Dec 08, 2011 6:00 am

I wonder what Fred was up to  
 
PITrules
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RE: Bloomberg: FedEx May Order 30 767s Next Week

Thu Dec 08, 2011 6:06 am

Quoting seabosdca (Reply 17):

The 777F is overdesigned for that role with its 5000+ nm of range. It's also very very expensive. So it makes more sense to buy 777Fs only for the more difficult MD-11 missions and for new transpacific missions.
Quoting HPRamper (Reply 37):
When you get right down to it, the market at this point for the 777 to be cost effective is quite finite. There are only so many markets that demand that kind of volume, nonstop from MEM.

For the integrators, an aircraft's payload volume carries much more importance vs being "overdesigned" for a route than at the passenger carriers.

At UPS for example, the 744F is the flagship intercontinental freighter, with the longest range in the fleet. They only have 12, yet it is currently operating SDF-MEM because of its capacity. The MD-11 has been doing routes such as SDF-STL for a long time now. Considering this, there are many routes FX can use a 777 on. They don't all have to be ULH.

Quoting HPRamper (Reply 37):
The 777 only makes sense when it has a clear advantage over the MD11, and that is generally in the range differential

Also operating cost differential.

[Edited 2011-12-07 22:07:31]
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yyz717
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RE: Bloomberg: FedEx May Order 30 767s Next Week

Thu Dec 08, 2011 6:28 am

Quoting HPRamper (Reply 39):
The 764F is waaaay too much plane for an A310 replacement.

Not really. Yes, it would be a capacity jump on day 1, but with natural organic growth today's A310 route will require a 764F size aircraft in 10 years, and since aircraft are bought for long term use, the pain assoc with the capacity jump on day 1 is negligible over the life of the new aircraft. If route growth is 2% per year, sometimes the capacity shift has to be a painful 20% once every 10th year.

Quoting PITrules (Reply 43):
Considering this, there are many routes FX can use a 777 on. They don't all have to be ULH.
Quoting PITrules (Reply 43):
Quoting HPRamper (Reply 37):
The 777 only makes sense when it has a clear advantage over the MD11, and that is generally in the range differential

Also operating cost differential.

The far better economies of the 777F dictate though that it should progressively replace the M11 fleet from the longest routes first to maximize the superior per-hour benefit of the 777. This will relegate the M11 to shorter and shorter (and yes, some short haul) routes. We see the M11 on IND-YYZ regularly (a one hour flight each way and sitting often at YYZ all day). While this is arguably a misuse of an M11 even though dictated by volume, it would be a criminal (smile) misuse of a 777F, until that is, the 777F replacement (in whatever form) is introduce in 2025 or whenever.
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HPRamper
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RE: Bloomberg: FedEx May Order 30 767s Next Week

Thu Dec 08, 2011 8:58 am

Quoting yyz717 (Reply 44):
Not really. Yes, it would be a capacity jump on day 1, but with natural organic growth today's A310 route will require a 764F size aircraft in 10 years, and since aircraft are bought for long term use, the pain assoc with the capacity jump on day 1 is negligible over the life of the new aircraft. If route growth is 2% per year, sometimes the capacity shift has to be a painful 20% once every 10th year.

FX doesn't really operate that way. Aircraft routings are constantly right-sized - some will see a 727 one day, a 757 the next and those aircraft have only a 2-ULD load difference. All routes do not go through MEM as well; if this were the case, then maybe the major markets could handle the 764F...but as of now, it's quite possible for Market X to send an A310 to MEM and a 757 to IND, or AFW.
 
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garpd
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RE: Bloomberg: FedEx May Order 30 767s Next Week

Thu Dec 08, 2011 12:52 pm

This announcement puzzles me.
Why the 767? Why not the A330?

Seems to me the latter would be far more fuel efficient and hold more volume and thus make more sense.
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seabosdca
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RE: Bloomberg: FedEx May Order 30 767s Next Week

Thu Dec 08, 2011 1:07 pm

Quoting garpd (Reply 46):
hold more volume

More than the 763, not appreciably more than the 764.

Quoting garpd (Reply 46):
more fuel efficient

   The A332's big advantage over the 763, even in the passenger realm, has always been its superior capability and flexibility, not any huge fuel efficiency advantage. Sure, it's got a newer and better wing, but it's also a bigger and heavier aircraft.

[Edited 2011-12-08 05:08:27]
 
wingman
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RE: Bloomberg: FedEx May Order 30 767s Next Week

Thu Dec 08, 2011 1:12 pm

And overnight packages prefer the 2X3X2 seating layout. There's simply more room at envelope edge to fan out.
 
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tjwgrr
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RE: Bloomberg: FedEx May Order 30 767s Next Week

Thu Dec 08, 2011 1:22 pm

Quoting HPRamper (Reply 37):
From what I heard the A310 will be affected by this order. I'm guessing the A310 fleet is being squeezed on both sides in terms of how badly they are needed, with the expansion of the 757 fleet and the MD11 coming back to domestic as the 777 takes over long-haul. The A310 is also labor-intensive for its payload, needing the same ground crew as an MD10 while only providing a fraction of the capacity. The A310 has one of the highest rates of aircraft strikes in the fleet, as well. That costs plenty.

Looking at the number of older A310-200 series FedEx has, (27 +1 in storage) I'd bet the 763F order is the A310-200 replacement.

FedEx also shows 16 (+1 in storage) A310-300 series.

[Edited 2011-12-08 05:27:33]
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