http://www.nbcnewyork.com/news/local...K-Community-Meeting-134650068.html

Ahh, I love articles like this. It implies that Runway 22L is a new runway or something. As far as I know, there were no renovations on it recently like there were on 31L/13R, and those were completed about 1 1/2 years ago already. But local politician:
"Since this past spring, it's absolutely exploded. I think it's around the time when Runway 22L, which has been under renovation for a long time -- as soon as it opened up, complaints started flooding in."

And FAA response:
"and on Oct. 31 started a pilot program on the overnight shift to keep planes at a higher altitude until they're close to landing."

What exactly does this entail? I doubt that it actually affects the people who are complaining about noise from aircraft on final approach.

This gentleman has a fair point though:
""We used to get 18 percent of all volume traffic into the airport. I don't mind that," said Larry Quinn of Garden City. "We're getting 42, 43 percent of all volume traffic for the same neighborhood. And this change has occurred over the last four years."

Bingo. I don't know where he got the percentage numbers, but it sounds about right.

JFK used to essentially be a two-runway operation. Aircraft would land on 13L/31R and depart on 13R/31L, or land on 22L/4R and depart on 22R/4L. But sometime around 2007, with jetBlue and Delta adding so much service, it became impossible to do this without delays. So for the last few years, JFK has essentially become a three-runway operation with the typical summer evening pattern being landings on 22L and departures on 31L at KK and on 22R (in the early afternoon, the typical pattern is landings on 13L and 22L with departures on 13R). I posted a thread about this a few months ago, but it's interesting that it has affected residents so much. Not surprising at all though: 22L has become the primary runway for landings at JFK in the past four years. I don't know why they are suddenly complaining about it now; presumably it's been an issue for the past four years.

But unfortunately this is unlikely to change in the near future barring a new runway. The best bet for residents around JFK is for NYC airspace re-design, but this still won't affect the people who live under the final approach path into 22L. There really isn't a good solution for the residents other than politely informing them that they chose to move to a neighborhood next to the premier international airport in the United States.

On a side note, the three-runway operation is an accident waiting to happen, as we have discussed before on here. You essentially have two aircraft landing on runways that are perpendicular to each other, with another aircraft taking off in the direction of one of those landing runways. The JFK controllers try to space it out, but with constant arrivals and departures this is an uphill task most of the time.

[Edited 2011-12-11 08:21:00]

Quoting washingtonian (Thread starter): On a side note, the three-runway operation is an accident waiting to happen, as we have discussed before on here. You essentially have two aircraft landing on runways that are perpendicular to each other, with another aircraft taking off in the direction of one of those landing runways. The JFK controllers try to space it out, but with constant arrivals and departures this is an uphill task most of the time.

Plus thrown in the need to deal with traffic from LGA, EWR, ISP, TEB and GA airports, frequent affects from bad weather especially in the winter and summer in the region and you got a volatile mix that does cause concern. Part of the more recent problem may be from when 22 was shut down for major renovations last year, so different people got the noise and they got a break. Another problem is that with the collapse of housing prices in the USA, including the area around JFK, many are very afraid that any increase in noise will affect even worse the values of the houses many would like to sell to get out of onerous mortgages or to retire and move away.

Look on the bright side: no more Concorde! 

Quoting ltbewr (Reply 1): many are very afraid that any increase in noise will affect even worse the values of the houses many would like to sell to get out of onerous mortgages or to retire and move away.

Tough, the airport was there long before the vast majority of the residents. Odds are they got a good price on the house because it was near the airport. Airports tend to attract airplanes, airplanes tend to make airplane noise, and growing cities tend to have increasing air traffic, if any of those are unacceptable, live someone else or accept that you made a poor purchasing decision. Modern aircraft are orders of magnitude quieter than a generation or two ago. They should be grateful that so much money and effort has been expended on their behalf.

Quoting ltbewr (Reply 1): Part of the more recent problem may be from when 22 was shut down for major renovations last year

31L/13R was the runway shut down for major renovations; if anything, 22L got LESS traffic after the renovations were complete.

Could be worse. At least JFK doesn't see a ton of DC-9s and MD-80s...

I invite all these NIMBY's to spend a week at my house. I live less than 3/4 of a mile from the end of runway 23R at Naval Air Station Oceana. NAS Oceana has lots of flights operated by F/A18 Hornets, in fact about 220,000 ops per year. An F/A18 is extremely loud. Much louder than any commercial jet. After these NIMBY's stay here they might realize JFK isn't really that loud.

I was aware of my proximity to NAS Oceana when I moved into my current residence. After a while, I got used to it and I don't even pay any attention to it anymore.

Quoting bohica (Reply 6): I invite all these NIMBY's to spend a week at my house. I live less than 3/4 of a mile from the end of runway 23R at Naval Air Station Oceana. NAS Oceana has lots of flights operated by F/A18 Hornets, in fact about 220,000 ops per year. An F/A18 is extremely loud. Much louder than any commercial jet. After these NIMBY's stay here they might realize JFK isn't really that loud. I was aware of my proximity to NAS Oceana when I moved into my current residence. After a while, I got used to it and I don't even pay any attention to it anymore.

NAS Oceana was almost closed during the 2005 BRAC, the BRAC board scolded local politicians for allowing so much residential encroachment on such a vital asset as the Naval Air Station Oceana. Even though the Pentagon did not recommend it, the Board wanted to look at closing Oceana and moving the East Coast Fighter Squadrons to Cecil Field Florida. Local Virginia officials promised to prevent anymore encroachment and Oceana was saved, however I think next BRAC or even sooner Oceana NAS might indeed close. Either replaced by a reactivated Cecil Field or possibly displacing the Marines from Cherry Point.

Quoting lowrider (Reply 3): accept that you made a poor purchasing decision

Take personal responsibility? Never!

Quoting lowrider (Reply 3): Modern aircraft are orders of magnitude quieter than a generation or two ago.

This was my first thought. I just watched a spotting video made in 1990... half of the airplanes I saw wouldn't meet today's noise standards.

Quoting lowrider (Reply 3): Odds are they got a good price on the house

Ain't no such thing, ESPECIALLY in Garden City (the median household price is about $750,000).

Quoting washingtonian (Thread starter): with jetBlue and Delta adding so much service

Service that people who complain probably use.

But this really gets me:

Quote: "Why can't they change it?"

Uhhh, the article said they ARE changing it. It took 4 years for people to notice the changes being made. It's gonna take another 4, duh. Rearranging the busiest airspace in the world doesn't just happen.

Not only do I only work on the ramp for an airline at JFK, I also live right under the flight path for 13L and 13R in Howard Beach so I'm dealing with noise almost 24/7. Its a major international airport which needs to operate 24hrs a day. I don't see change happening and if it does it won't be that much. Sometimes you have to deal. Its not like JFK just popped up out of nowhere.

"On a side note, the three-runway operation is an accident waiting to happen, as we have discussed before on here. You essentially have two aircraft landing on runways that are perpendicular to each other, with another aircraft taking off in the direction of one of those landing runways. The JFK controllers try to space it out, but with constant arrivals and departures this is an uphill task most of the time."

No it's not at all.

Until 4pm: 2 arrival runways 22L, 13L. Depart 13R

After 4 pm: 2 departure runways 22R, 31L KK. Arrive 22L OR Depart 4L and 31L KK depart 4R.


The first configuration that you consider dangerous has been in use at JFK for 30 years or more.

The latter (2 dep runways) is new from the 2000s.

No intersecting issues...


Now there have been issues on missed approaches, but that's another story!

Good analysis overall on your part though.

I think the point is that during non-peak hours, the tower tends to not spread the traffic around as much as they could. For example, around 8:00 at night or so when traffic dies down, they tower will still use 22L until the next morning. At this point they should swtich to 13/31, as the traffic no longer dictates 3 runways. Early morning are a good example, as well.

Quoting jfklganyc (Reply 10): No intersecting issues... Now there have been issues on missed approaches, but that's another story!

I meant missed approaches. If you have two aircraft heading towards each other while landing, and a third departing in that direction, then if one has a missed approach it is very risky.

Quoting flyguy1 (Reply 11): I think the point is that during non-peak hours, the tower tends to not spread the traffic around as much as they could. For example, around 8:00 at night or so when traffic dies down, they tower will still use 22L until the next morning. At this point they should swtich to 13/31, as the traffic no longer dictates 3 runways. Early morning are a good example, as well.

This is true too. I wonder if it's a pain to switch in the middle of regular operations.

Well, you can choose not to live next door to a mayor international airport, I don't get people who complain about noise at an airport - if you don't like the noise - MOVE!

-Steffen Nielsen

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 8): But this really gets me: Quote: "Why can't they change it?" Uhhh, the article said they ARE changing it. It took 4 years for people to notice the changes being made. It's gonna take another 4, duh. Rearranging the busiest airspace in the world doesn't just happen.

And, of course, all the people who live under the new flight paths don't want those changes, and are putting up fights of their own.

Quoting washingtonian (Reply 12): I meant missed approaches. If you have two aircraft heading towards each other while landing, and a third departing in that direction, then if one has a missed approach it is very risky.

I think they implemented some more procedures for this after a few incidents quite close to each other, such as making sure that the 22L arrivals are staying on the ground before releasing the 13R arrivals. Separating the 13L and 22L arrivals is very easy.

Quoting flyguy1 (Reply 11): I think the point is that during non-peak hours, the tower tends to not spread the traffic around as much as they could. For example, around 8:00 at night or so when traffic dies down, they tower will still use 22L until the next morning. At this point they should swtich to 13/31, as the traffic no longer dictates 3 runways. Early morning are a good example, as well.

If they switched to the 31s, then the departures would be causing noise problems for people in Howard Beach and Canarsie. When you're landing on the 22s, you're departing on the 22s as well, and the departure path is right over the bay. Generally, departures cause more noise problems than arrivals.

-Mir

Quoting Mir (Reply 14): Generally, departures cause more noise problems than arrivals.

Actually more people complain about the arrivals into the area, than the departures...


And remember guys 22L is a CAT-III runway; many airlines use that approach to maintain currency for their CAT-III equipment and crews.

They do switch between the VOR 22L and the ILSs depending on what LGA is doing, so that provides some relief.

Honestly, I have little sympathy for these people.

Queens is home to 2 of the busiest airports in the world and they both combine to be the largest employer in the borough (JFK alone is the largest employer) and is the backbone of the city's transportation economy.

You buy a house under the flight path and you know what you are doing.

Quoting mmedford (Reply 15): Actually more people complain about the arrivals into the area, than the departures...

Interesting. I wonder how many complaints the 4L departures generate - that's the alternative to 22L arrivals if they're going to keep a CatIII runway operational.

-Mir

Quoting jfklganyc (Reply 16): They do switch between the VOR 22L and the ILSs depending on what LGA is doing, so that provides some relief.

Even though the 22L VOR Approach is in use; crews request the ILS to be up.

Quoting Mir (Reply 17): Interesting. I wonder how many complaints the 4L departures generate - that's the alternative to 22L arrivals if they're going to keep a CatIII runway operational.

4R*; with the departures they get airborne and climb out quickly. Compared to a long drawn out low approach into the airport.

Quoting lowrider (Reply 3): Tough, the airport was there long before the vast majority of the residents. Odds are they got a good price on the house because it was near the airport. Airports tend to attract airplanes, airplanes tend to make airplane noise, and growing cities tend to have increasing air traffic, if any of those are unacceptable, live someone else or accept that you made a poor purchasing decision. Modern aircraft are orders of magnitude quieter than a generation or two ago. They should be grateful that so much money and effort has been expended on their behalf.

EXACTLY!!!! When we moved near when I was a kid there there, we knew of the proximity to the airport. I personally loved it. My family, not so much. But we never complained. Why? You choose to live near an airport (twice we did this), you gotta expect planes. Becomes a bit hypocritical too when you take flights from the airport  .

Quoting washingtonian (Thread starter): ""We used to get 18 percent of all volume traffic into the airport. I don't mind that," said Larry Quinn of Garden City. "We're getting 42, 43 percent of all volume traffic for the same neighborhood. And this change has occurred over the last four years."

This comment is not so much about flight activity as it is how many pass over Long Island, ...I know there has been an adjustment in the patterns for the NYC airspace lately, so I believe this might be part of that. Furthermore this same complaint was made in the Newark Star Ledger pertaining to EWR by residents under the approaches there not too long ago. Everybody wants convenient airports and all the economic benefits from it and no one wants any noise from it...keep dreaming.

if they dont like it shouldnt live near an airport

Quoting tsnamm (Reply 20): This comment is not so much about flight activity as it is how many pass over Long Island

Quoting tsnamm (Reply 20): Everybody wants convenient airports and all the economic benefits from it and no one wants any noise from it...keep dreaming.

Yup. Someone has to be inconvenienced. I currently live near BWI. My only complaint is the type of aircraft that I see....One tires of WN 737s....I miss JFK....

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 8): This was my first thought. I just watched a spotting video made in 1990... half of the airplanes I saw wouldn't meet today's noise standards.

If it was your first thought, then what does that make mine, 'cause I had it too, albeit later..?  I also have a video of JFK traffic from the early '90's and the amount of DC-8's, B727s, B707s, B741's and B742's is astonishing. Don't forget to throw in the Concorde for good measure. Where were the vocal NIMBY's then? All gagged and thrown in a cellar somewhere? Let's put 'em back, then. Up here, we still get the sweet sounds of JT-8D's taking off every morning before 7 am. On the bright side, I don't need to set my alarm clock for an 8 am shift. Then again, I would never complain about aircraft noise... So much nicer than train horns or road traffic... And *still* at a tender age of 108 (in 5 days) a marvel of science.

Quoting lowrider (Reply 3): Odds are they got a good price on the house because it was near the airport.

Actually the surrounding areas of JFK has alittle bit of money within it...

Quoting 727LOVER (Reply 2): Look on the bright side: no more Concorde!

Quoting lowrider (Reply 3): Tough, the airport was there long before the vast majority of the residents.

I feel like this issue comes up once every five years or so at both JFK and LGA and I don't really understand it. There is nothing that has changed at the airport except for the aircraft generally getting quieter. I was at JFK recently and remarked at how quiet it was, even the large B744s and B777s taking off. Not noiseless, but generally quiet. I know these aircraft have been around for a while but when I think back even a decade, there were dozens of B727s and DC-9s, and of course a couple of Concorde rotations a day, to deal with. Each of these aircraft were far noisier than anything currently at the airport, the noisiest aircraft now appears to be the lowly regional jet!

I generally have little sympathy for NIMBYs, at least when it comes to airports. As lowrider said, many residents who now live under the airport's general path do not outdate the airport and although the frequency of flights may have increased, the noise levels have not. These same people who complain about noise levels most likely chose to live near the airport or at least knew the airport was there - and they have the benefit of living close an the airport which serves theirs needs and mitigates some of their taxes, something I do not enjoy.

Some of us are interested in purchasing these homes...

Perhaps I should use this as an opportunity to finally live near the airport.

Oh, this boy can dream...

Quoting washingtonian (Thread starter): On a side note, the three-runway operation is an accident waiting to happen, as we have discussed before on here. You essentially have two aircraft landing on runways that are perpendicular to each other, with another aircraft taking off in the direction of one of those landing runways. The JFK controllers try to space it out, but with constant arrivals and departures this is an uphill task most of the time.

Intersecting landing runways happens all the time at PHL, which is a busier airport in terms of plane movements. Thankfully, we have skilled ATC in the Northeast.  

Quoting mah584jr (Reply 27): Intersecting landing runways happens all the time at PHL, which is a busier airport in terms of plane movements. Thankfully, we have skilled ATC in the Northeast.

Uh, oh, you'd better    .

Quoting mah584jr (Reply 27): Intersecting landing runways happens all the time at PHL

Sure, with tower keeping them separated. Question is, since 13L doesn't intersect 22L at JFK, how much "separation" is the tower required to provide between arrivals on the two runways? Maybe none?

"Even though the 22L VOR Approach is in use; crews request the ILS to be up."

Not really.

They are 2 different tracks, the VOR is offset.

They use the VOR approach when LGA is using 13 for departures because they do not (JFK arrival controllers) own the airspace. The VOR course is displaced further south.

I have actually asked for a visual to 22R while doing the VOR 22L (there were no departures waiting for 22R) and I was told they do not own the airspace for arrivals to 22R due to LGA config.

22L ILS Can be up during a VOR/DME 22L Approach into JFK..

Only thing that stops 22L Localizer from coming up is when 13L Localizer is in use with the 13L CRI Visual or we are flying 31s or 4s.

But i've been denied the equipment when we are on the 22L VOR/DME; because crews request the ILS to keep the airplane current for CAT-III.

Quoting Blueman87 (Reply 21): if they dont like it shouldnt live near an airport

Garden City is nowhere near the airport. And if you ask me, those people have a right to be mad. And it hasn't taken 4 years to "notice" this; it's just been building up that long. People were giving the PA and FAA the benefit of the doubt that this would be fixed once the bay runway was reopened, but it hasn't been. (Yeah, they got the runway wrong in the article, that's all.)

The big problem is that these patterns are affecting areas that are 10 or 20 miles away from the airport that never had noise before. Obviously, if you buy a house near the airport, you expect some noise. You don't expect that if you live in a wealthy area 20 miles away that never had noise before and now suddenly does. And this is bad for the entire county, because a lot of the property taxes for the county come from that area, and if property values are reassessed downward because of noise from JFK, then we lose tax revenue, which means things like schools and police get cut.

It's one thing to buy a house near an airport and then complain about noise. I bought a house near JFK and I have some noise and I don't complain; I like to watch the planes fly overhead. But it's another thing to live in the middle of Long Island in a quiet, wealthy area and now suddenly you have to deal with noise. Airports are like any other resident; they have to do their part to be good neighbors. Maybe there's nothing that can be done, or maybe there is. I don't see a problem with lighting a fire under some people to try to get them to move a little faster. Like I said, this was supposed to be fixed by now, and people have actually been pretty patient waiting for it.

Quoting spacecadet (Reply 32): The big problem is that these patterns are affecting areas that are 10 or 20 miles away from the airport that never had noise before. Obviously, if you buy a house near the airport, you expect some noise.

It's funny you should mention that. I live in Suffolk County, and when the 22's are in use I have the arrivals heading directly over my house in W. Babylon at probably 5,000 feet or so. But, having family my entire life in that area, I always remember the planes coming over like that. To be honest, the noise levels are really not bad at all, and having the A380 going directly over my house is quite a sight to see! My surprise was when I was visiting my friend in Dix Hills recently and looked out his window to see the pattern extended all the way up to him too. That's all the way up towards the north shore.

I would still rather have the sound of the jet engines in my area (which are quiet) than the damn "yuppy copters" that used to fly over all the time. Those drove me NUTS.

Quoting spacecadet (Reply 32): Garden City is nowhere near the airport.

About 7.4 nm from the 22L threshold, pretty close to the VOR approach course, so arrivals are ... maybe 2000 ft? over Garden City. The approach course is the JFK 52-degree radial, which passes over the green arrowhead at

http://maps.google.com/maps?q=40+43+....999937,56.513672&vpsrc=6&t=h&z=14

[Edited 2011-12-13 14:51:34]

[Edited 2011-12-13 14:52:23]

Quoting spacecadet (Reply 32): Obviously, if you buy a house near the airport, you expect some noise. You don't expect that if you live in a wealthy area 20 miles away that never had noise before and now suddenly does.

Is this the case though? 22L has been in operation for decades. 22L is certainly being used more frequently now, as we discussed above, but why would residents who never had noise to begin with all of a sudden have noise now?

Quoting washingtonian (Reply 35): Is this the case though? 22L has been in operation for decades. 22L is certainly being used more frequently now, as we discussed above, but why would residents who never had noise to begin with all of a sudden have noise now?

exactly...as well as considering today's MUCH quieter turbofans vs. the 60's and 70's turbojets and the decibels they pumped out. Planes have been flying over Long island since LGA opened...and JFK...besides the fact Garden City is much closer than 20 miles from Queens. However it is one of the wealthiest subdivisions in Nassau County, and therefore its residents have much more clout when it comes to complaining to politicians about what they don't like. When rich people bitch, politicians listen. ( HPN for example). That being said one wonders how "loud" it can possibly be from aircraft at 2,000 ft. Let alone what time of day we are talking about. Having lived in Rosedale, Queens just 2 miles from the runways, I basically didn't notice the noise after the 1st week there, with the exception of when it was raining or foggy, which had the effect of transmitting the volume to ground more efficiently (at least it seemed so).

Quoting washingtonian (Reply 35): Is this the case though? 22L has been in operation for decades. 22L is certainly being used more frequently now, as we discussed above, but why would residents who never had noise to begin with all of a sudden have noise now?

I do not know of the history of the operations of the 22's that much, but I have been on enough flights now to see a difference. The last 6 or so flights that I was on where the 22's were in use, I could not believe how far north we were getting routed before turning south. Right out my window were the Northport stacks like I could touch them, then we turned west (so like a base leg) along the northern "coastline", then south for final...and right over some of the very wealthy sections of the island's northern coast along the way. The last flight I even made a joke to the captain once we landed and I was helping to clean the plane and said something like "thanks for the grand tour of western Long Island" and he responded with "I was telling the F/O it was like learning to fly out of FRG all over again, pointing out the stacks and the other visual references...on the NORTH SHORE no less!". It really does seem that planes are getting bumped up north more than they used to. Just my opinion though.

~H81