Moderators: jsumali2, richierich, ua900, PanAm_DC10, hOMSaR

 
qf002
Posts: 3669
Joined: Tue Jul 05, 2011 11:14 am

RE: Will Qantas Airways Order The Boeing 747-8I

Tue Dec 13, 2011 4:24 am

Quoting BY738 (Reply 20):
Nope, the 748 can land anywhere the 744 can, and lots of other places the A380 cannot

QF only cares if their VLA's can land in LHR, SIN, LAX, DFW, HKG and NRT (maybe JFK/JNB/SCL). They can? Oh good, that means your point is moot.

Quoting QFA380SYD (Reply 37):
They Qantas should order 777-300ER because theirs a big gape between the A380 and 787-9 its 300 pasanger diference.
Also 777-300ER can replace some 747-400 and 777-200LR for 747ER.

Keep on dreaming buddy. First of all, it's more like 175 seat difference (QF has said 275 in their 789's, and there's 450 in the A380s), and many of these aircraft would be assigned to routes to Asia, where a 787-10, with around 350 seats, would make the most sense from an economic standpoint.

Quoting sydscott (Reply 39):
I'll go out on a limb and say that I doubt QF will order the 737Max in any significant numbers.

I disagree. If they're planning on having 100 737s by 2021 (see page 46 of their powerpoint), with a 30 frame increase post-2016 then they have no other option. There's also going to be a lot of replacements due in the early 2020's (ie the 20 or so frames delivered 2001-2003), and a steady flow throughout the 20's (ie their entire existing fleet will be 20+ years old by 2031) and any proper NB replacement from A or B won't realistically be around until 2028-2030.

Quoting PC12Fan (Reply 40):
Be careful, sometimes hell does freeze over.

Not in this situation it doesn't.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 44):
Sure they can. Take the first class seats out and paint "Jetstar" on the side.

But that's not QF operating them. The point is that QF cannot hope to be a viable international airline without 787s operating on key international (mostly premium) routes out of Australia. Without serving key Asian destinations especially, plus upholding services to the US outside of LAX and to destinations like FRA, they instantly lose their corporate portfolio, who go running to another airline who can actually cater for their needs. Without the corporate portfolio, QF might as well get those last 6 A380s painted straight into JQ colours.
 
User avatar
EK413
Posts: 5540
Joined: Sat Nov 29, 2003 3:11 pm

RE: Will Qantas Airways Order The Boeing 747-8I

Tue Dec 13, 2011 4:39 am

Quoting EK413 (Reply 49):
Quoting mcpcshowcaseHD (Thread starter):

Simple answer no...

QF fleet will consist of the A380, A330, B787 & B73H... No room for the B747-8I...

EK413

Seem I got it wrong! A380, A330 and B73H...

EK413
Good evening, ladies and gentlemen. We are tonight’s entertainment!
 
koruman
Posts: 2179
Joined: Mon Feb 06, 2006 9:08 pm

RE: Will Qantas Airways Order The Boeing 747-8I

Tue Dec 13, 2011 4:42 am

Quoting seabosdca (Reply 16):
What a very odd fleet strategy, and what a very odd network strategy it implies. Relying on JQ for everything but the very biggest trunk routes seems like a way to cede a big portion of their lucrative premium business to SQ and the like while keeping only the garbage fares.

Welcome to Qantas management!
 
vheca
Posts: 172
Joined: Wed May 30, 2007 9:20 pm

RE: Will Qantas Airways Order The Boeing 747-8I

Tue Dec 13, 2011 4:45 am

I see the fleet strategy as akin to the QF of old (70's - 80's) where you see key trunk routes operated by the Flying Kangaroo (see all 747 QF fleet) while most domestic/medium/light density routes will be explored/operated/flogged by Jetstar and the rest of the domestic based airlines (see Ansett/TAA/etc)

May pay off, time will tell. But we will have to see.

Just how I reads it.

Cheers

Vheca
PAX on- 300, 312, 320, 380, 722, 732, 733, 73H, 73W, 739, 742, 743, 74C, 752, 753, 762, 789, AB4, CR7, D1C, D28, DHT, F27, L11
 
fpetrutiu
Posts: 741
Joined: Tue Aug 07, 2007 11:28 pm

RE: Will Qantas Airways Order The Boeing 747-8I

Tue Dec 13, 2011 5:17 am

Quoting gigneil (Reply 50):
Dulles? Houston has been loaded.

ORD is also ready. ATL has announced they're basically ready. Detroit is ready.

OK great, you just proven my point. There are only a handful of airports that can take the A380, the B748i can land everywhere with B744 minimums.

Anyways, it's not like it would make a difference in QF's case, they are only interested in a few airports and they will not order the B748i or the A380 anymore to bigin with. It would be silly for them to do so, there might be a small top-off order for another A388 but highly doubt that. QF has no need for these birds, nor will it in the near future. If anything, I see them taking more A330's or 787's.
Florin
Orlando, FL
 
User avatar
EPA001
Posts: 3893
Joined: Tue Sep 12, 2006 8:13 pm

RE: Will Qantas Airways Order The Boeing 747-8I

Tue Dec 13, 2011 8:06 am

Quoting fpetrutiu (Reply 55):
the B748i can land everywhere with B744 minimums.


Two posts clearly state (with evidence from Boeing to back that up) that your claim is incorreect. Still it is again posted by you as if it were true. It is not. To fresh up your memory:

Quoting EPA001 (Reply 29):
Quoting fpetrutiu (Reply 26):
The 747-8i is approved for ALL 747-400 certified airports. It was one of the design requirements.

Not true. This document from ACI & Boeing specifically states where airports might need to make changes to accommodate the B747-8f/i compared to the B747-400.

ACI...on_Agreement%20Doc_Attachments.pdf</i></font></td></tr></TABLE>" target="_blank">http://www.aci.aero/aci/aci/file/ACI...s.pdf
Quoting zeke (Reply 31):
Quoting BY738 (Reply 20):

Nope, the 748 can land anywhere the 744 can, and lots of other places the A380 cannot

That is not true, we operate the 748F, and it is restricted into which airports it can operate into


I think that says enough.

Quoting PC12Fan (Reply 40):
I admit that I didn't do the research, but when aircraft need special escorts at certain airports when others do not, it weakens your argument just a little bit.


Well, that is true, I'll admit to that. But it is only the case at LAX as far as I know. I was trying to make the point that the claim that the B748 can land anywhere the B744 can land is incorrect. And that point was proven by the document from Boeing I linked to and by Zeke who knows better then anyone here what restrictions CX faces when they operate the B748 compared to the B744 (they should know that of course  ).
 
Burkhard
Posts: 1916
Joined: Fri Nov 17, 2006 9:34 pm

RE: Will Qantas Airways Order The Boeing 747-8I

Tue Dec 13, 2011 8:25 am

Quoting QFA380SYD (Reply 37):
I think its pretty silly of Lufthansa and Korean Airlines to oreder A380 and 747 8I
Quoting gigneil (Reply 47):
I've said this before: the 747-8i is not a competitive airplane

We still don't know if the Boeing claims that the 748I is within a few percent CASM of the A380, so about 10-15% better than the 77W, are true. If they are true, many airlines will regret they ordered the inferior, but more expensive plane.

There is nothing so difficult to predict as the future.
 
QFA380SYD
Posts: 15
Joined: Sat Nov 26, 2011 7:20 am

RE: Will Qantas Airways Order The Boeing 747-8I

Tue Dec 13, 2011 9:46 am

Quoting qf002 (Reply 51):

So I think his saying that the biggest passanger plane ever is the same size as a 767 300.
Theirs a very big difference you chose whats is bigger.

Click Here to view the photo

http://cdn-www.airliners.net/aviation-photos/middle/1/6/4/2030461.jpg

Or

http://cdn-www.airliners.net/aviation-photos/middle/6/1/3/2030316.jpg

see the A340-300 to the right of the QF A380 a 787 9 is smaller   

 
81819
Posts: 2008
Joined: Fri May 23, 2008 9:13 pm

RE: Will Qantas Airways Order The Boeing 747-8I

Tue Dec 13, 2011 9:50 am

Quoting EPA001 (Reply 56):
Well, that is true, I'll admit to that. But it is only the case at LAX as far as I know. I was trying to make the point that the claim that the B748 can land anywhere the B744 can land is incorrect. And that point was proven by the document from Boeing I linked to and by Zeke who knows better then anyone here what restrictions CX faces when they operate the B748 compared to the B744 (they should know that of course ).



If I remember correctly Sydney airport also has operational restrictions when A380's are landing or taking off.

Someone else might be able to shed more light on the subject.
 
Flyingsottsman
Posts: 799
Joined: Mon Oct 25, 2010 12:32 pm

RE: Will Qantas Airways Order The Boeing 747-8I

Tue Dec 13, 2011 9:55 am

There are 2 reasons why Qantas wont order the 748i

1 A very small long haul network
2 A380s and 787s.

Like the 777 argument there is no room for them and that will be the same for the 748i, lets look at where QF's network say back in 1980, back then they were advetising themselfs as the only 747 airline and please correct me if I am wrong with these destenations in 1980 QF was flying to:-

Europe - London (Heathrow), Mancester,Amsterdam,Frankfurt,Rome,Athens,Belgrade, all 747-200

North America - Vancover, San Francisco, Los Angeles, Mexico City ( I think) Honolulu -747-200

Asia - Bahran, Mumbi, Calcutta, Singapore, Bangkok, Jakarta, Hong Kong, Bejing, Tokyo, Osaka, Taipi ( Australia Asia) 747SP Kuala Lumper,

Pacific Nandi in New Zealand - Auckland, Christchuch

Now today in 2011

Europe London (Heathrow) Frankfurt. London is A380 now and I should expect that Frankfurt in the future will go A380.

North America Los Angles A380/747 New York JFK A330 from LAX DallasFortworth 747 will I reacon go A380.

South America Buenos Aires 747 ( service will be dropped) Santiago will be served with a 744 but once again that will be replace with an A380.

So that leaves the regional SE Asian services they will be A330 untill the 787s come on line
Trans Tasman will be 738s
Honolulu will stay 763 untill they get retired and that will either go A330 or to JQ altogether.
So looking at all that, and its just my opinion the A380s when all the QF A380s come will take care of the Long Haul Europe/North and South America flights and the A330s will do the SE Asian flights untill the 787s come on line and the 738 will do Trans Tasman and New Caledonia services. There is just no room for a 748i in the fleet. QF have placed all their bets on a A380/787/A330 combination and thats why I think the 748i will be passed over just like the 777s did.
 
User avatar
Mikey86
Posts: 118
Joined: Sun Jul 03, 2011 11:51 am

RE: Will Qantas Airways Order The Boeing 747-8I

Tue Dec 13, 2011 12:30 pm

Quoting BY738 (Reply 20):

Nope, the 748 can land anywhere the 744 can, and lots of other places the A380 cannot

In QF's current route structure the 388 can land at any of its ports it serves on an international level, and most major Australian cities. But judging by QF's trend in decrease services and destinations to a lesser extent, I doubt that where can the A380 land will be theirbiggest concern.
mikey86 - Greenslopes, Queensland
 
747m8te
Posts: 438
Joined: Fri Aug 29, 2008 10:14 am

RE: Will Qantas Airways Order The Boeing 747-8I

Tue Dec 13, 2011 12:43 pm

Quoting QFA380SYD (Reply 62):
In 3 class seat layout the 787 9 holds 280 passengers and A343 has 295 passengers in 3 class seating.Also on 767 300 it seats 215 people in 3 class seating. Lol

But those figures for the A343 aren't really relavent to most modern airline layouts of today, what airline would cram 295 seats in a three class layout into an A343??? business and first class seats wouldn't be of a very good standard with a much tighter pitch then what most modern day airlines offer...Just look at CX, they have their A343 in a two class config and only seat 283, QFs config of the A333 is similar in capacity. the 789 which is only about 1m shorter but with a wider cabin then the A343 should be able to sit a higher number of pax easily.

Quoting Flyingsottsman (Reply 60):
So looking at all that, and its just my opinion the A380s when all the QF A380s come will take care of the Long Haul Europe/North and South America flights and the A330s will do the SE Asian flights untill the 787s come on line and the 738 will do Trans Tasman and New Caledonia services. There is just no room for a 748i in the fleet. QF have placed all their bets on a A380/787/A330 combination and thats why I think the 748i will be passed over just like the 777s did.

Thats a very good wrap up of QF network and fleet strategy, shows quite well that QF will be able to manage their network with the A380/B787/B738 in a similar manner as they currently do with the A380/B744/A330/B767/B738 but reducing the aircraft types in fleet. There is nothing I would love more then for QF to order the 747-8i, but i just can't see it happening as it simply isn't needed. Though....I wish it was...oh well I can dream lol

Quoting qf002 (Reply 51):
QF only cares if their VLA's can land in LHR, SIN, LAX, DFW, HKG and NRT (maybe JFK/JNB/SCL). They can? Oh good, that means your point is moot.

Nailed the point right there   why does Qantas care if the 747-8i can fly into more ports if they have no/and never showed any intention of serving them!
Flown on:
DHC8Q200,DHC8Q300,DHC8Q400, EMB145,E170,E175,E190, A319,A320,A321,A332,A333,A343,A380, MD80, B712,B733,B734,B737,B738,B743,B744,B744ER,B762,B763,B77W
 
jfk777
Posts: 7353
Joined: Tue Aug 22, 2006 7:23 am

RE: Will Qantas Airways Order The Boeing 747-8I

Tue Dec 13, 2011 1:02 pm

Quoting sydscott (Reply 39):
With 12 A380's in the fleet QF can do;

SYD - SIN - LHR - daily
MEL - SIN - LHR - daily
SYD - LAX - daily
MEL - LAX - daily
SYD - HKG - 4 weekly

So with 20 plus 787's the long haul routes, including DFW, will easily be covered without the 748I.

Qantas needs to serve more long haul cities. Why no flights to Dubai ? With all that is going on there O & D demand has to exist for Australians.

Lima would make a good gateway to Northern Latin America along with Santiago.

Sao Paulo would make a great destination for Qantas if it could be reached nonstop with a 787-9.
 
vheca
Posts: 172
Joined: Wed May 30, 2007 9:20 pm

RE: Will Qantas Airways Order The Boeing 747-8I

Tue Dec 13, 2011 1:13 pm

People have argued about what routes, if any, QF will expand to and what they will use to do so. I share in the opinion that, if QF choose to explore any outside their "trunk" routes, it will be done with the 787 aircraft.

I see needless arguments about 747 v A380 v goodness knows what else QF should be doing for their fleet because at the end of the day, it is hard to put the finger on the pulse at QF for the past 10-15 years and now moving forward. We have a statement of where they see themselves in the future and it is without the 747-8i.

Why? Consolidation of know routes "image" and "business" critical to the airline and it's core business travellers. I see, as my previous post eludes to is a focus on the QF brand doing exactly what they have whittled down to know and letting their LCC arm do the filtering in the Pacific (Jetstar), SE Asia (Jetstar Asia), Central Asia (RedQ, although not LCC) and the Far East (Jetstar Japan).

They hope to achieve the same numbers as Jetstar has produced in all these others to keep the Red Tail drumming out the "Old Faithfuls" until they see enough black to once again look to or return to other markets.

My opinion

Cheers

Vheca.
PAX on- 300, 312, 320, 380, 722, 732, 733, 73H, 73W, 739, 742, 743, 74C, 752, 753, 762, 789, AB4, CR7, D1C, D28, DHT, F27, L11
 
User avatar
zeke
Posts: 15103
Joined: Thu Dec 14, 2006 1:42 pm

RE: Will Qantas Airways Order The Boeing 747-8I

Tue Dec 13, 2011 2:44 pm

Quoting sydscott (Reply 33):
Um that's actually completely incorrect regarding the 787. There is no way QF International can operate without the 787 in 2021. You missed the "Additional B787 - allocation TBD based on return measures."

I did not miss that note at the bottom at all.

Current QF plans as per that document does not indicate any 787s to QF international.

I would be more inclined to see some of those aircraft deployed to entities like Jetstar (Aus, NZ, Sin, Japan), Jetconnect or Red Q or similar. I do not think QF wants to expand its international operations using Australian based aircraft or crew due to the Australian tax environment which I think makes them internationally uncompetitive.
Human rights lawyers are "ambulance chasers of the very worst kind.'" - Sky News
 
cmf
Posts: 3120
Joined: Sun Jun 12, 2011 11:22 pm

RE: Will Qantas Airways Order The Boeing 747-8I

Tue Dec 13, 2011 3:01 pm

Quoting fpetrutiu (Reply 54):
OK great, you just proven my point. There are only a handful of airports that can take the A380, the B748i can land everywhere with B744 minimums.

I'm sorry but no point made because the argument is flawed from the beginning.

All that counts are the airports where airlines want to fly. So far there are very few examples where there is a desire to fly but no ability to handle.

I'd venture there are far more occasions of airlines not being able to fly a desired route with smaller equipment because of airport limitations (capacity in slots and gates) than there are routes denied because A380 can't be handled.

For perspective. There are far more airports capable of handling 747s' than there are receiving scheduled or even ad hoc service.
Don’t repeat earlier generations mistakes. Learn history for a better future.
 
United Airline
Posts: 8971
Joined: Wed Jan 10, 2001 5:24 pm

RE: Will Qantas Airways Order The Boeing 747-8I

Tue Dec 13, 2011 5:50 pm

They will take all 20 A380s and will exercise the 4 options with additional orders I think. Altogther maybe 30.

It is unliekly that they will order theB 747-8
 
qf002
Posts: 3669
Joined: Tue Jul 05, 2011 11:14 am

RE: Will Qantas Airways Order The Boeing 747-8I

Tue Dec 13, 2011 6:52 pm

Quoting United Airline (Reply 66):
They will take all 20 A380s and will exercise the 4 options with additional orders I think. Altogther maybe 30.

Personally I see a few less than 30, but agree that more than 20 makes sense (depending on how the 787s end up going). And if the -900 is around by the end of this decade then I'd expect their final 6 frames to be converted, plus any further orders to be for the larger plane.
 
Sydscott
Posts: 3513
Joined: Thu Oct 30, 2003 11:50 am

RE: Will Qantas Airways Order The Boeing 747-8I

Tue Dec 13, 2011 9:39 pm

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 62):
Qantas needs to serve more long haul cities. Why no flights to Dubai ? With all that is going on there O & D demand has to exist for Australians.

Most of the pax to Dubai are connecting not O&D.

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 62):
Lima would make a good gateway to Northern Latin America along with Santiago.

SYD-SCL as SYD-EZE finishes. QF will rely on LAN to connect pax in South America from SCL.

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 62):
Sao Paulo would make a great destination for Qantas if it could be reached nonstop with a 787-9.

Agreed! I think GRU would be a great QF destination if they can get the right equipment.

Quoting zeke (Reply 64):
Current QF plans as per that document does not indicate any 787s to QF international.

So with all of the A330's going domestic you tell what aircraft is going to fly PER-SIN, PER-HKG, ADL-SIN, MEL-HKG, SYD/BNE-MNL, SYD-AKL-LAX, SYD-CGK, SYD-HNL & BNE-HKG. It's hardly going to be A380's!

Quoting vheca (Reply 63):
I share in the opinion that, if QF choose to explore any outside their "trunk" routes, it will be done with the 787 aircraft.

I think it's worth pointing out that if the original Boeing Schedule for 787 deliveries was met QF would have something like 40 in their fleet right now! Imagine different QF would look........

Quoting United Airline (Reply 66):
They will take all 20 A380s and will exercise the 4 options with additional orders I think. Altogther maybe 30.

I disagree with that. I think they'll exercise options for the 787 and the A380 unit count will stay at 20. But that's just confecture on my part.

Anyway, I still don't see a place for the 748.
 
Gemuser
Posts: 5083
Joined: Mon Nov 24, 2003 12:07 pm

RE: Will Qantas Airways Order The Boeing 747-8I

Tue Dec 13, 2011 9:49 pm

Quoting sydscott (Reply 69):
So with all of the A330's going domestic you tell what aircraft is going to fly PER-SIN, PER-HKG, ADL-SIN, MEL-HKG, SYD/BNE-MNL, SYD-AKL-LAX, SYD-CGK, SYD-HNL & BNE-HKG. It's hardly going to be A380's!

RedQ aircraft?

Gemuser
DC23468910;B72172273373G73873H74374475275376377L77W;A319 320321332333343;BAe146;C402;DHC6;F27;L188;MD80MD85
 
Sydscott
Posts: 3513
Joined: Thu Oct 30, 2003 11:50 am

RE: Will Qantas Airways Order The Boeing 747-8I

Tue Dec 13, 2011 11:39 pm

Quoting gemuser (Reply 70):
RedQ aircraft?

A pipe dream that will still require 787's if they pull it off. (And that's a big if!)
 
User avatar
RayChuang
Posts: 8138
Joined: Sat Jun 24, 2000 7:43 am

RE: Will Qantas Airways Order The Boeing 747-8I

Tue Dec 13, 2011 11:54 pm

I think it's likely that QF will buy more A380-800's to serve their very long routes to completely replace their 747-400's soon and 747-400ER's after 2018.
 
Gemuser
Posts: 5083
Joined: Mon Nov 24, 2003 12:07 pm

RE: Will Qantas Airways Order The Boeing 747-8I

Tue Dec 13, 2011 11:59 pm

Quoting sydscott (Reply 71):

A pipe dream that will still require 787's if they pull it off. (And that's a big if!)

It will NOT require B787s AT QF! That's the point, they will be at the Asian full service airline, NOT the Australian one.

The QF Group still has about 100 B787 orders/options/purchase rights so they can get a steady stream of them to use where ever they think best. I do think the chances are good that you will see B787s at QF, but it's feasible that it may not happen.

The question of if they get RedQ off the ground and can make a success of it is, of course, very much an open question, and a BIG IF, but they are obviously planning on it.

Gemuser
DC23468910;B72172273373G73873H74374475275376377L77W;A319 320321332333343;BAe146;C402;DHC6;F27;L188;MD80MD85
 
User avatar
zeke
Posts: 15103
Joined: Thu Dec 14, 2006 1:42 pm

RE: Will Qantas Airways Order The Boeing 747-8I

Wed Dec 14, 2011 12:10 am

Quoting gemuser (Reply 73):

It will NOT require B787s AT QF! That's the point, they will be at the Asian full service airline, NOT the Australian one.

I agree, with Scoot starting up, I think the chances of more QF metal expanding is slim. Jetstar could operate some of those routes.

I think on routes that QF see as being the non core routes for them in terms of business passengers, I see Jetstar operating 2 or even 3 class aircraft on those routes.

Even see the possibility of some of those routes being dropped. They will more their aircraft onto routes where they will earn more, not which provides the best looking network.
Human rights lawyers are "ambulance chasers of the very worst kind.'" - Sky News
 
United Airline
Posts: 8971
Joined: Wed Jan 10, 2001 5:24 pm

RE: Will Qantas Airways Order The Boeing 747-8I

Wed Dec 14, 2011 2:28 am

Quoting sydscott (Reply 69):
I think they'll exercise options for the 787 and the A380 unit count will stay at 20. But that's just confecture on my part.

If that's the case QF has ordered 20 firm and 4 options for the A380. It will be at least 24 if they exercise all options
 
Sydscott
Posts: 3513
Joined: Thu Oct 30, 2003 11:50 am

RE: Will Qantas Airways Order The Boeing 747-8I

Wed Dec 14, 2011 2:35 am

Quoting gemuser (Reply 73):
It will NOT require B787s AT QF! That's the point, they will be at the Asian full service airline, NOT the Australian one.

And I think you're wrong in that there WILL be B787's in QF international. The point is that there won't be a full service asian airline that can use Australian traffic rights in the same way that QF does. If the Asian based full service carrier was to be based in SIN they couldn't use Australian traffic rights to fly say PER - HKG or BNE - HKG directly from Australia. That's why there will be 787's in QF mainline International colours. So quit your caps and focus on facts.

Quoting zeke (Reply 74):
I think on routes that QF see as being the non core routes for them in terms of business passengers, I see Jetstar operating 2 or even 3 class aircraft on those routes.

And what exactly is non-core at QF these days? Hong Kong certainly is a major centre for business travellers, as is Singapore, as is SYD-NRT. Are you seriously telling me that business people are going to want to fly Jetstar and that that is a strategy designed to bring them back to QF?

Quoting zeke (Reply 74):
Even see the possibility of some of those routes being dropped. They will more their aircraft onto routes where they will earn more, not which provides the best looking network.

The point is that for QF to appeal to the business traveller they need mainline, full service product into at least places like SIN and HKG. That then provides consistency of product connecting to the A380's. Even if an Asian based premium carrier is based in SIN, that would mean that QF mainline would still need to cover HKG because the bilaterals wouldn't allow a Singapore based airline to fly it. So whichever way you slice it QF mainline International is still going to need 787's of its own with, or without, an Asian based Premium Airline.
 
User avatar
Zkpilot
Posts: 4521
Joined: Wed Mar 08, 2006 8:21 pm

RE: Will Qantas Airways Order The Boeing 747-8I

Wed Dec 14, 2011 2:48 am

Quoting koruman (Reply 52):
Quoting seabosdca (Reply 16):
What a very odd fleet strategy, and what a very odd network strategy it implies. Relying on JQ for everything but the very biggest trunk routes seems like a way to cede a big portion of their lucrative premium business to SQ and the like while keeping only the garbage fares.

Welcome to Qantas management!

exactly, half of them were involved with AN before it collapsed including one A. Joyce.
Why grow an airline when you can strip it bare and slowly kill it? Seems a viable business strategy.
64 types. 45 countries. 24 airlines.
 
koruman
Posts: 2179
Joined: Mon Feb 06, 2006 9:08 pm

RE: Will Qantas Airways Order The Boeing 747-8I

Wed Dec 14, 2011 2:50 am

Quoting zeke (Reply 74):

I think on routes that QF see as being the non core routes for them in terms of business passengers, I see Jetstar operating 2 or even 3 class aircraft on those routes.
Quoting seabosdca (Reply 15):
What a very odd fleet strategy, and what a very odd network strategy it implies. Relying on JQ for everything but the very biggest trunk routes seems like a way to cede a big portion of their lucrative premium business to SQ and the like while keeping only the garbage fares.
Quoting koruman (Reply 52):
Welcome to Qantas management!

It is astonishing that people do not see the utter incoherence of the Red Rooster plan.

Let's be absolutely frank about Qantas. It no longer leads the market in terms of soft product or hard product, and relies largely on misplaced patriotic feelings in the most small-minded Australians. This allows it to command yields which its product does not justify. And that is to be charitable.

But if it cedes its routes to a mixture of Asian-staffed Jetstar flights and Asian-staffed Red Rooster services it cannot expect loyalty from its existing market.

It's that simple.
 
Gemuser
Posts: 5083
Joined: Mon Nov 24, 2003 12:07 pm

RE: Will Qantas Airways Order The Boeing 747-8I

Wed Dec 14, 2011 3:38 am

Quoting sydscott (Reply 76):
The point is that there won't be a full service asian airline that can use Australian traffic rights in the same way that QF does. If the Asian based full service carrier was to be based in SIN they couldn't use Australian traffic rights to fly say PER - HKG or BNE - HKG directly from Australia.

Yes they either can with the current Australia/SIN bilateral or it is a relatively minor amendment. True it will require cooperation from the 3rd country, but that seems more and more likely. It is much too early to write it off yet, both success and failure are still possibilities.

Quoting sydscott (Reply 76):
That's why there will be 787's in QF mainline International colours. So quit your caps and focus on facts.

You're probably right, but it is NOT a sure thing as you seem to think. It's obvious that things are moving behind the scenes, exactly what who knows? But we might all be surprised. [Presently or unpresently depends on your point of view]

Gemuser
DC23468910;B72172273373G73873H74374475275376377L77W;A319 320321332333343;BAe146;C402;DHC6;F27;L188;MD80MD85
 
User avatar
zeke
Posts: 15103
Joined: Thu Dec 14, 2006 1:42 pm

RE: Will Qantas Airways Order The Boeing 747-8I

Wed Dec 14, 2011 3:57 am

Quoting sydscott (Reply 76):
If the Asian based full service carrier was to be based in SIN they couldn't use Australian traffic rights to fly say PER - HKG or BNE - HKG directly from Australia.

I do not think HKG is somewhere QF International is looking at flying in the future.

Quoting sydscott (Reply 76):

And what exactly is non-core at QF these days?

I would think FRA, NYC, MNL, CGK, BKK, PVG, HKG, BOM, JNB, HNL, EZE etc. I think will go the same way as NRT.

Quoting sydscott (Reply 76):

The point is that for QF to appeal to the business traveller they need mainline, full service product into at least places like SIN and HKG.

I think QF international will just be on a few routes going to big hubs, and using their code share networks at the destinations like LAX and LHR.
Human rights lawyers are "ambulance chasers of the very worst kind.'" - Sky News
 
Sydscott
Posts: 3513
Joined: Thu Oct 30, 2003 11:50 am

RE: Will Qantas Airways Order The Boeing 747-8I

Wed Dec 14, 2011 4:16 am

Quoting gemuser (Reply 79):
Yes they either can with the current Australia/SIN bilateral or it is a relatively minor amendment. True it will require cooperation from the 3rd country, but that seems more and more likely. It is much too early to write it off yet, both success and failure are still possibilities.

I don't know. Hong Kong has been qute protective of its rights in the past and CX would lobby hard against it. Even with the prospect of pan Asian Open Skies I think it would be too bigger step in a regulatory sense. Which leads me to

Quoting zeke (Reply 80):
I do not think HKG is somewhere QF International is looking at flying in the future.

They've just put the A380 on SYD-HKG which is there best product. Hong Kong is a critical business market out of Australia that JQ just isn't adequate to service.

Quoting zeke (Reply 80):
I would think FRA, NYC, MNL, CGK, BKK, PVG, HKG, BOM, JNB, HNL, EZE etc. I think will go the same way as NRT.

I think you're flat out wrong here but time will tell. JNB would be a candidate for the 3 class A380, JFK has just been upped to daily again and PVG not only has to stay QF mainline but be expanded in the future. EZE is to be replaced by SCL and will be QF mainline and QF have repeatedly denied a plan to pull out of FRA. MNL and CGK would lend themselves to JQ but since they haven't gone that way one can make the assumption that either QF mainline is making some cash out of them or JQ isn't seen as the appropriate airline for the SYD market. (Since PER-CGK and DRW-MNL are both JQ). As for BOM, QF currently serve it as an extenstion of the SIN hub. I'd say it's an ideal candidate for a replacement codeshare with MAS or handing over to Jetstar Asia once more A330's arrive.

Quoting zeke (Reply 80):
I think QF international will just be on a few routes going to big hubs, and using their code share networks at the destinations like LAX and LHR.

It already is. All you've got left is LHR, FRA, BOM, CGK,SIN, BKK, HKG, MNL, PVG, NRT, JNB, SCL, LAX and DFW. With the possible exception of CGK and MNL these are all key business hubs that QF needs to stay in. With the amount of outsourcing that happens in MNL and the increasing ties to Indonesia there is probably a case for QF mainline staying on these as well. There is just no-where left to pull out from.
 
AngMoh
Posts: 1051
Joined: Fri Nov 04, 2011 5:03 am

RE: Will Qantas Airways Order The Boeing 747-8I

Wed Dec 14, 2011 4:29 am

Quoting sydscott (Reply 76):
If the Asian based full service carrier was to be based in SIN they couldn't use Australian traffic rights to fly say PER - HKG or BNE - HKG directly from Australia. That's why there will be 787's in QF mainline International colours. So quit your caps and focus on facts.

QF themselves are not sure that there will be 787s in QF mainline international colours so why are you? All routes you mentioned are going to be Jetstar flying 787s.

Australia's main airline is going to be called Jetstar or Virgin. QF is legacy because of legacy laws, costs and structures and unless they are broken (which Alan Joyce is trying to do in a pretty crude, and in my opinion counterproductive, way), Jetstar will be the future of the Qantas Group.
727 732 733 734 735 73G 738 739/ER 742 743 744/M 752 753 762 772 77E 773 77W 788 A300 A310 A319 A320 A321 A332 A333 A343 A345 A346 A359 A35K A388 DC-9 DC-10 MD11 MD81 MD82 MD87 F70 ERJ145 E170 E175 E190 E195 ATR72 Q400 CRJ200 CRJ700 CRJ900 BAE146 RJ85
 
koruman
Posts: 2179
Joined: Mon Feb 06, 2006 9:08 pm

RE: Will Qantas Airways Order The Boeing 747-8I

Wed Dec 14, 2011 4:44 am

Quoting AngMoh (Reply 82):
Australia's main airline is going to be called Jetstar or Virgin. QF is legacy because of legacy laws, costs and structures and unless they are broken (which Alan Joyce is trying to do in a pretty crude, and in my opinion counterproductive, way), Jetstar will be the future of the Qantas Group.

Agree, except for the last phrase.

Because I am pretty sure that the Qantas board wants to sell Jetstar for a nice, fat profit based upon dodgy accounting and cross-subsidisation by Qantas.
 
Sydscott
Posts: 3513
Joined: Thu Oct 30, 2003 11:50 am

RE: Will Qantas Airways Order The Boeing 747-8I

Wed Dec 14, 2011 6:05 am

Quoting AngMoh (Reply 82):
QF themselves are not sure that there will be 787s in QF mainline international colours so why are you?

And we're not sure how many 777's Scoot will end up with just that it will have them. Same principle. The difference is that QF has existing routes served by A330's that an asian based premium carrier can't service because of regulatory and practical difficulties. I also don't subscribe to the negativity in this thread.

Quoting AngMoh (Reply 82):
All routes you mentioned are going to be Jetstar flying 787s.

And all Singapore Airlines flight to Australia will become Scoot............

Quoting AngMoh (Reply 82):
Australia's main airline is going to be called Jetstar or Virgin.

Wrong.

Quoting AngMoh (Reply 82):
QF is legacy because of legacy laws, costs and structures and unless they are broken (which Alan Joyce is trying to do in a pretty crude, and in my opinion counterproductive, way), Jetstar will be the future of the Qantas Group.

Jetstar is the future of leisure travel out of Australia. That much is assured. It's also the future of QF's LCC model within Asia. That much is also assured. But the talk of QF having a full service, high yielding and highly profitable domestic product backed up by an LCC style International product is just rubbish. By converting 8 744's to A380 style QF is trying to get consistency in its International Product to appeal to the very business flyers that would be turned off by Jetstar.

No-one, not even QF, know what's going to happen in 2021. The slide presentation is a reflection of that. How many times has QF's 787 deployment strategy been changed? I can think of at least 3 and this presentation simply highlighted it the fact that by 2021 even they won't know how many 787's will be deployed in mainline international, vs mainline domestic vs Jetstar.

Quoting koruman (Reply 83):
Because I am pretty sure that the Qantas board wants to sell Jetstar for a nice, fat profit based upon dodgy accounting and cross-subsidisation by Qantas.

And if you can produce even a shred of solid evidence to back either of those two statements up I'll run naked down Pitt Street.
 
Gemuser
Posts: 5083
Joined: Mon Nov 24, 2003 12:07 pm

RE: Will Qantas Airways Order The Boeing 747-8I

Wed Dec 14, 2011 6:39 am

Quoting sydscott (Reply 84):
But the talk of QF having a full service, high yielding and highly profitable domestic product backed up by an LCC style International product is just rubbish

But that was NOT the talk, the talk was of having a full service, high yielding and highly profitable domestic product backed up by a full service, high yielding and highly profitable international product (RedQ), not an LCC.

That is perfectly reasonable assuming they can actually get one up and running. That's a big IF, I grant you, but it is the plan AFAIK.

Quoting sydscott (Reply 84):

Jetstar is the future of leisure travel out of Australia

Yes, that is the international LCC. RedQ is the premium.

Gemuser
DC23468910;B72172273373G73873H74374475275376377L77W;A319 320321332333343;BAe146;C402;DHC6;F27;L188;MD80MD85
 
User avatar
EK413
Posts: 5540
Joined: Sat Nov 29, 2003 3:11 pm

RE: Will Qantas Airways Order The Boeing 747-8I

Wed Dec 14, 2011 6:50 am

Quoting RayChuang (Reply 72):
I think it's likely that QF will buy more A380-800's to serve their very long routes to completely replace their 747-400's soon and 747-400ER's after 2018.

Qantas announced it was deferring six of its ten remaining A380 orders, until 2018-2021...
You could be spot on... Finger's crossed they take delivery of the deferred frames come 2018...

Quoting sydscott (Reply 84):
And all Singapore Airlines flight to Australia will become Scoot............

Fat chance that happening...

EK413
Good evening, ladies and gentlemen. We are tonight’s entertainment!
 
qf002
Posts: 3669
Joined: Tue Jul 05, 2011 11:14 am

RE: Will Qantas Airways Order The Boeing 747-8I

Wed Dec 14, 2011 7:15 am

Quoting zeke (Reply 80):
I do not think HKG is somewhere QF International is looking at flying in the future.

Disagree. In my opinion, HKG is as important for QF as SIN. QF probably has more passengers ending their journey in HKG than in SIN (bearing in mind that many SIN pax are LHR/FRA bound).

Quoting sydscott (Reply 83):
Jetstar is the future of leisure travel out of Australia. That much is assured. It's also the future of QF's LCC model within Asia. That much is also assured. But the talk of QF having a full service, high yielding and highly profitable domestic product backed up by an LCC style International product is just rubbish.

The problem is that QF cannot provide services for business pax if they can't fill out the back of the plane with the leisure travelers that JQ customers. If JQ is the future of leisure travel, then where does that leave QF?

Quoting sydscott (Reply 83):
I can think of at least 3 and this presentation simply highlighted it the fact that by 2021 even they won't know how many 787's will be deployed in mainline international, vs mainline domestic vs Jetstar.

And the fact of the matter is that QF has not said that they're not taking any 787's. At this point it's a few members latching onto a presentation and using its details out of context.

Quoting gemuser (Reply 84):
But that was NOT the talk, the talk was of having a full service, high yielding and highly profitable domestic product backed up by a full service, high yielding and highly profitable international product (RedQ), not an LCC.

But how can RedQ provide a true international airline for Australia, being based in Asia? How can RedQ fulfill the needs of thousands of Australians travelling to the Americas, for example?
 
Gemuser
Posts: 5083
Joined: Mon Nov 24, 2003 12:07 pm

RE: Will Qantas Airways Order The Boeing 747-8I

Wed Dec 14, 2011 7:21 am

Quoting qf002 (Reply 86):

But how can RedQ provide a true international airline for Australia, being based in Asia?

Good Questions, I don't have the answers.

Quoting qf002 (Reply 86):
How can RedQ fulfill the needs of thousands of Australians travelling to the Americas, for example?

I don't think it is intended to, but who knows.
IMHO QF I think QF WILL operate B787s, but it is not impossible to enviseage them not having them. As the QF presentation says "TBD" - To Be Determined.

Gemuser
DC23468910;B72172273373G73873H74374475275376377L77W;A319 320321332333343;BAe146;C402;DHC6;F27;L188;MD80MD85

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: a2b7, AECM, Aquila3, Baidu [Spider], Bing [Bot], CaliguyNYC, Chipmunk1973, cleair, Clydenairways, FLL2go, FlySail2015, Google [Bot], Google Adsense [Bot], HeeseokKoo, jersey777, jfk777, lightsaber, mah584jr, Mani87, mileduets, Numberj, overcast, OzarkD9S, pgh234, pspfan, Rifitto, SCFlyer, silentbob, Speedbird96, SRQLOT, STT757, Teeeye81, tphuang and 257 guests

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos