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multimark
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New Airline Looks To Use C-Series LCY-NYC

Mon Dec 19, 2011 7:08 pm

Looks like BA is going to have some competition, if this gets off the ground:

"A British venture called Odyssey Airlines hopes to start non-stop all-business class flights from London City to New York and other locations using 10 newly-ordered Bombardier CSeries passenger jets, aviation industry sources told Reuters.

The disclosure lifts a mystery surrounding the identity of one of the buyers for a Canadian jet which aims to break into a market long dominated by Airbus and Boeing.

Train and plane maker Bombardier said in June it had sold two sets of 10 aircraft to customers that preferred to stay anonymous, one of which was an “unidentified European buyer” and the other was an already established airline..."
http://business.financialpost.com/20...e-cseries-in-new-london-nyc-route/
 
BMI727
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RE: New Airline Looks To Use C-Series LCY-NYC

Mon Dec 19, 2011 7:18 pm

They need to be working closely with an established airline to get access to their frequent flier base otherwise they don't have a chance. Since BA already has their services the only options would be to try and align themselves with BMI or Virgin. Trying to sell the service independently is just suicide.
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RubberJungle
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RE: New Airline Looks To Use C-Series LCY-NYC

Mon Dec 19, 2011 7:24 pm

Anyone have a payload-range chart for CSeries? I'd like to see how it'll make LCY-NYC, and what sort of restrictions that'll entail...
 
747400sp
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RE: New Airline Looks To Use C-Series LCY-NYC

Mon Dec 19, 2011 7:25 pm

YES, one of my favorite jets, will be doing all business across the pond!! Think passengers will prefer this service over BA's service, due to the modern 787/A350 like comfort level that the C-Series offers.
 
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calpsafltskeds
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RE: New Airline Looks To Use C-Series LCY-NYC

Mon Dec 19, 2011 7:31 pm

Quoting RubberJungle (Reply 2):
Anyone have a payload-range chart for CSeries? I'd like to see how it'll make LCY-NYC, and what sort of restrictions that'll entail...

Wiki says the 100ER has a range of 2950NM, 100+ nm short of LCY-JFK. but, with business seating, payload would be lower, so maybe aux tanks can be installed. At MGTOW, the runway run is just under 5000 ft. LCY has about 5400 ft. of concrete, but 4940 ft. may be all that is available as that is to the end of the taxiways. Not sure if it has crushable concrete on either or both ends.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bombardier_CSeries
 
AA737-823
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RE: New Airline Looks To Use C-Series LCY-NYC

Mon Dec 19, 2011 7:38 pm

MAXJet, SilverJet, Openskies, and L'Avion....
But THIS ONE will be different.
Sure.

Sorry, but LCY just ain't that big a draw, in my opinion, to poach passengers away from well-entrenched entities like BA, AA, VA, UA, DL, et al.
 
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RE: New Airline Looks To Use C-Series LCY-NYC

Mon Dec 19, 2011 7:40 pm

Quoting CALPSAFltSkeds (Reply 4):
Wiki says the 100ER has a range of 2950NM, 100+ nm short of LCY-JFK. but, with business seating, payload would be lower, so maybe aux tanks can be installed. At MGTOW, the runway run is just under 5000 ft

I cannot imagine that they could get out of LCY with enough fuel to make it to New York nonstop, especially with headwinds.

Quoting CALPSAFltSkeds (Reply 4):
but 4940 ft. may be all that is available as that is to the end of the taxiways. Not sure if it has crushable concrete on either or both ends.

The runway length is about 4940, the EMAS does not count since it's only a safety device.
Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
 
migair54
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RE: New Airline Looks To Use C-Series LCY-NYC

Mon Dec 19, 2011 7:40 pm

The plane with only business class and aux tanks will be able to do... specially if they do a stop in Shannon to clear custom and inmigration and arriving like a local flight into the USA speeding up the process a lot.

I think it´s a good business but with BA doing the route and no feeder it will be difficult. maybe the can consider IAD as well...
 
LH526
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RE: New Airline Looks To Use C-Series LCY-NYC

Mon Dec 19, 2011 7:41 pm

Great Idea! Wish them all the best!

But ... HOW ON EARTH can you name an airline Odyssey? Haven't they read the poem?  

[Edited 2011-12-19 11:59:38]
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RubberJungle
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RE: New Airline Looks To Use C-Series LCY-NYC

Mon Dec 19, 2011 7:44 pm

Quoting migair54 (Reply 7):
specially if they do a stop in Shannon to clear custom and inmigration and arriving like a local flight into the USA

But that's exactly my point - the article suggests they're trying to avoid the Shannon stop.
 
LAXDESI
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RE: New Airline Looks To Use C-Series LCY-NYC

Mon Dec 19, 2011 8:02 pm

Quoting multimark (Thread starter):
"A British venture called Odyssey Airlines hopes to start non-stop all-business class flights from London City to New York and other locations using 10 newly-ordered Bombardier CSeries passenger jets, aviation industry sources told Reuters.

They must be planning to use CS100 as there is not enough runway to accommodate CS130.

CS100 is about 12 feet longer than A318(32 seats, 4-abreast) which would make it possible for it to accommodate 30 seats in 10 rows(3-abreast) with a wider seat than the 20" in BA's A318. Alternatively, the CS100 could be configured with 40 seats @4-abreast.

I expect the CS100ER to weigh about 12,000 lbs. less than A318(about 14%), which should give it a significant cost advantage on fuel burn per seat--both in 3-abreast and 4-abreast.

CS100ER, with 40 seats, will have an advantage of about 35% in fuel burn per seat over A318 with 32 seats.
 
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lightsaber
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RE: New Airline Looks To Use C-Series LCY-NYC

Mon Dec 19, 2011 8:05 pm

I'm very excited about the potential of a 'high MTOW' CS100 in TATL duty. I'm going to wait to find out more on this airline before discussing the specific business case.

Quoting migair54 (Reply 7):
The plane with only business class and aux tanks will be able to do... specially if they do a stop in Shannon to clear custom and inmigration and arriving like a local flight into the USA speeding up the process a lot.

Bombardier has made noise about skipping the Shannon stop. With all business and aux tanks, it won't be an issue until one considers LCYs short runway... (Yea... big issue to ignore.) But here is the deal, there is surplus growth on the Pratt's. The CS100 would be a 'rocket' with up-thrusted engines and probably a new flap setting. It is possible and Bombardier/Pratt have been looking into the issue. While it is a shortfield, it isn't a hot/high shortfield.  

Here is my take on how to execute the non-stop: If the takeoff includes a reduced cross wind component, the allowed thrust, with the existing tail, could be increased about 15% to 20%.    That would require a 'special mode' that would require extensive training. Obviously, under high crosswinds, Shannon would be a needed stop. LCY pilots, due to the landing angle, need special training anyway. So this wouldn't be a huge deal.

If Bombardier delivers, I think the discussions with QR will start again... But with ten on order, perhaps this airline would start flights towards the mid-east with a partner?   

Quoting migair54 (Reply 7):
I think it´s a good business but with BA doing the route and no feeder it will be difficult. maybe the can consider IAD as well...

They should not only consider IAD, but then open up other European destinations from New York and IAD.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 1):
They need to be working closely with an established airline to get access to their frequent flier base otherwise they don't have a chance.

I had hopes that when Bombardier discussed this it was with an established airline. Heck, it could have been B6, BA, LH, US, or others...

Quoting AA737-823 (Reply 5):
MAXJet, SilverJet, Openskies, and L'Avion....
But THIS ONE will be different.

Under half the cost per flight. So yes, it is different.  

Please note, I'm only speaking technically. I'm not sold on the business case either. However, the low cost per flight of the C-series opens up a huge new market. If one ignores BA's A318, that is...

Quoting lh526 (Reply 8):
Haven't they read the poem?

The CEO has a loyal wife into weaving rugs...  

Lightsaber
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edina
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RE: New Airline Looks To Use C-Series LCY-NYC

Mon Dec 19, 2011 8:08 pm

Quoting lh526 (Reply 8):
Great Idea! Wish them all the best!

But ... HOW ON EARTH can you name an airline Odyssey? Haven't they read the poem?

And recycling the name of a failed Canadian charter airline......guess they're not superstitious!!!
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RE: New Airline Looks To Use C-Series LCY-NYC

Mon Dec 19, 2011 8:14 pm

Potentially could work (though the lack of an FF base IS worrying), but to order 10 straight off the bat?! Surely that can't all be for LCY - there would not be the ramp space for more than a couple of C Series at any one time, or am I mistaken here?
 
PezySPU
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RE: New Airline Looks To Use C-Series LCY-NYC

Mon Dec 19, 2011 8:32 pm

With a bit of advertising and patience, I think it might work, at least that one route.
 
PPVRA
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RE: New Airline Looks To Use C-Series LCY-NYC

Mon Dec 19, 2011 8:33 pm

Strange they didn't go for the Lineage 1000.

Quoting Timboflier215 (Reply 13):

Potentially could work (though the lack of an FF base IS worrying), but to order 10 straight off the bat?! Surely that can't all be for LCY - there would not be the ramp space for more than a couple of C Series at any one time, or am I mistaken here?

If they want to compete with Netjets, they are gonna have to have frequency. Maybe that's where MaxJet, etc, went wrong.
"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
 
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RE: New Airline Looks To Use C-Series LCY-NYC

Mon Dec 19, 2011 9:45 pm

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 15):
If they want to compete with Netjets, they are gonna have to have frequency. Maybe that's where MaxJet, etc, went wrong.

   How does one compete with BA to JFK without some frequency?

I suspect we'll see this from both sides. e.g., multiple per day to New York from LCY, but also flights to other destinations in the US and then from the US side flights to other destinations besides LCY.

Quoting LAXDESI (Reply 10):
CS100ER, with 40 seats, will have an advantage of about 35% in fuel burn per seat over A318 with 32 seats.

Would the 4 across product be competitive enough?    IMHO, with enough frequency,   

Oh, both Pratt and Bombardier should be holding fuel burn in margin... In other words, the type might do even better.  

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RE: New Airline Looks To Use C-Series LCY-NYC

Mon Dec 19, 2011 10:03 pm

Interesting, there was a thread just over a week ago about the possibility of Transatlantic regional jets. This is exactly the sort of route I thought it may happen on, although admittedly I thought it would be a way off and not with a new entrant.

https://www.airliners.net/aviation-fo...eneral_aviation/read.main/5328434/

On paper the CS100 looks like a fantastic aircraft if you have a short Cat 2C runway and still want to serve destinations up to 2,000nm away. I hope they transfer into real world operation without changing.


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bennett123
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RE: New Airline Looks To Use C-Series LCY-NYC

Mon Dec 19, 2011 10:04 pm

I recall Silverjet flying from Luton.

There were many comments about connections.

IMO, a major problem that they had was their unimpressive reliability.

I do not have figures to hand, but recall flights being cancelled or arriving/departing hours late.

When you only operate 2 flights daily, that will be a killer. People make a big deal about cost, but in business missed meetings mean lost business, and arriving a day early, and returning a day late means hotel bills and being out of office when needed.
 
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shamrock604
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RE: New Airline Looks To Use C-Series LCY-NYC

Mon Dec 19, 2011 10:07 pm

Yeah, good luck with that....

BA will wipe the floor this carrier, unless they align themselves with the other big player at LCY, which is Air France / Cityjet, and even then, this is nothing Cityjet could not do on it's own if it was so inclined.

Someone with too much money and too little sense.
 
boeing773er
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RE: New Airline Looks To Use C-Series LCY-NYC

Mon Dec 19, 2011 10:23 pm

let me put it lightly; I will believe it when I see it.   
Work Hard, Fly Right.
 
airbazar
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RE: New Airline Looks To Use C-Series LCY-NYC

Mon Dec 19, 2011 10:40 pm

Quoting RubberJungle (Reply 9):
But that's exactly my point - the article suggests they're trying to avoid the Shannon stop.

If they can fly non-stop, the time savings far outweigh the immigration/customs pre-clearance. These passengers are not likely to be carrying checked luggage and with propper timing the immigration line takes no more than 10-15 minutes.
 
something
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RE: New Airline Looks To Use C-Series LCY-NYC

Mon Dec 19, 2011 11:08 pm

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 1):
Trying to sell the service independently is just suicide.
Quoting AA737-823 (Reply 5):
MAXJet, SilverJet, Openskies, and L'Avion....
But THIS ONE will be different.
Sure.
Quoting shamrock604 (Reply 20):
Yeah, good luck with that....

BA will wipe the floor this carrier, unless they align themselves with the other big player at LCY, which is Air France / Cityjet, and even then, this is nothing Cityjet could not do on it's own if it was so inclined.

Someone with too much money and too little sense.

Exactly. Not going to work.

Most business traffic is very loyal to a certain brand and London downtown is in the firm hands of BA. Their product would have to be so much superior to that of BA and the prices would have to be low enough to outweigh the lack of frequent flier miles that it can impossibly make any money for them.

Irrespective of the financial state BA is in, they will in any case have much deeper pockets and will just lower their fares, up their service, add promotions etc. accordingly until Odyssey is nothing but a distant memory of a few travellers.

If they can however join Star Alliance, and distinguish themselves from BA with a lounge at LCY or better yet, pre-clearance facilities at LCY in addition to going non-stop both ways, things could get ugly for BA quick. But then again, how likely is it for this to happen?
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shamrock604
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RE: New Airline Looks To Use C-Series LCY-NYC

Mon Dec 19, 2011 11:22 pm

Quoting something (Reply 22):
If they can however join Star Alliance, and distinguish themselves from BA with a lounge at LCY or better yet, pre-clearance facilities at LCY in addition to going non-stop both ways, things could get ugly for BA quick. But then again, how likely is it for this to happen?

Next to impossible. For one, LCY does not have the space for pre-clearance facilities, and even if it did, it would be open to all carriers to use including BA, as an agreement would be struck between the governments of the US and UK to allow such a facility to open. The US do not seem all that keen, and thus far, Ireland and Canada are the only countries which have them.
 
planejamie
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RE: New Airline Looks To Use C-Series LCY-NYC

Mon Dec 19, 2011 11:35 pm

Quoting 747400sp (Reply 3):
YES, one of my favorite jets, will be doing all business across the pond!! Think passengers will prefer this service over BA's service, due to the modern 787/A350 like comfort level that the C-Series offers.

Hang on, so essentially an aircraft with a smaller cabin width and smaller height will give it a more modern comfort level? The BA A318s have the latest Airbus interior which is pretty comfortable and it's fitted with full flat bed seating... I don't see your reasoning here.

LCY pre-clearance, dream on...

This airline will be another Silverjet... it won't work out because there's no frequent flyer base, there's no customer base, there's no reputation and unless they do something to really set standards (which I doubt they will, I mean they're competing with BA!) or do it non-stop (again with LCY's runway, I doubt it) I'll give this about a year...
 
PPVRA
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RE: New Airline Looks To Use C-Series LCY-NYC

Mon Dec 19, 2011 11:47 pm

I am not so sure how important a frequent flyer base is. . . I mean, the target market here is not one who cares too much about random freebies full of strings attached. They are going after Netjets, after all.

And this is a business-oriented airline. You can't tell your boss you didn't get to the meeting across the pond with the client on time because you wanted to take BA and accumulate Avios!

With that said, I agree that this seems like a very risky plan. But I do hope they can make it work.   
"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
 
bennett123
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RE: New Airline Looks To Use C-Series LCY-NYC

Mon Dec 19, 2011 11:57 pm

IMO, they are competing with BA/VS etc, not NetJets.

London to NYC is easily a big enough market to support this project.

IMO, the biggest drivers, (apart from price) will be frequency and reliability.
 
BMI727
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RE: New Airline Looks To Use C-Series LCY-NYC

Tue Dec 20, 2011 1:54 am

Quoting something (Reply 22):
Most business traffic is very loyal to a certain brand and London downtown is in the firm hands of BA. Their product would have to be so much superior to that of BA and the prices would have to be low enough to outweigh the lack of frequent flier miles that it can impossibly make any money for them.

   These are guys who fly a lot to many different places, often working for companies with corporate contracts. Such people are all about hitting the ground running (though not willing to pay for a private jet) and value seamless travel highly. A new airline offering no connectivity, no worldwide partners, and limited frequency (remember LHR has a ton of other flights) will not be that appealing. And well-heeled (reasonably) leisure travelers won't really see the appeal of LCY and certainly won't be willing to pay a premium.

If they want a chance to succeed, I would propose a change to the business model: codeshare the hell out of the flights. Make it almost like a Privatair type charter service, but shared between airlines. Get BMI, Virgin, and probably a couple American carriers putting their codes on the flight, selling tickets, and awarding their frequent flier miles to passengers. Those airlines all have to compete with BA and their unique service, but likely none have the ~30 passengers who fall into the demographic to make it work. But, each might have six or seven willing to pay for the time savings. And a new airline might be able to perform the flights at lower costs, further raising their attractiveness vs. BA. The big airlines would get a competitive new product to offer some of their best customers without paying for the overhead and a lot of the costs associated with a small subfleet. If Odyssey sets up something like that, their idea might just work.
Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
 
queb
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RE: New Airline Looks To Use C-Series LCY-NYC

Tue Dec 20, 2011 2:06 am

Quoting shamrock604 (Reply 23):
LCY does not have the space for pre-clearance facilities, and even if it did, it would be open to all carriers to use including BA

Right but the A318 MTOW at LCY is limited to 139,000 lb (compare to 150,000 lb for other airports) and 2200 nm range. The CS100ER will take off without weight restrictions (128,200 lb)
 
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RE: New Airline Looks To Use C-Series LCY-NYC

Tue Dec 20, 2011 2:39 am

Quoting planejamie (Reply 24):
This airline will be another Silverjet... it won't work out because there's no frequent flyer base, there's no customer base, there's no reputation and unless they do something to really set standards (which I doubt they will, I mean they're competing with BA!) or do it non-stop (again with LCY's runway, I doubt it) I'll give this about a year...

Meanwhile, the C-Series aircraft will be proving itself on a very demanding city pair: Dispatch reliability, engine performance, cabin comfort, range, CASM...

Quoting shamrock604 (Reply 19):
Someone with too much money and too little sense.

Between you and me (don't tell anyone I said this) I wonder if BBD didn't 'salt the mine' a little for this guy to make this op happen.

In the end, the airline may not be a success but if the numbers actually work out the way this Odyssey outfit and BBD say they will, this experiment will prove the aircraft to be a hell of a flying machine and a massive game-changer.

Hundreds, if not thousands of orders will follow.

Or am I blowing smoke?
 
capitalflyer
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RE: New Airline Looks To Use C-Series LCY-NYC

Tue Dec 20, 2011 4:15 am

Quoting migair54 (Reply 7):
maybe the can consider IAD as well

If it can't or only would barely make JFK, there is no chance it could do IAD without a fueling stop somewhere. They can't even fly 757s to some European destinations from IAD.
 
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shamrock604
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RE: New Airline Looks To Use C-Series LCY-NYC

Tue Dec 20, 2011 5:19 am

Quoting czbbflier (Reply 29):
In the end, the airline may not be a success but if the numbers actually work out the way this Odyssey outfit and BBD say they will, this experiment will prove the aircraft to be a hell of a flying machine and a massive game-changer.

Hundreds, if not thousands of orders will follow.

Or am I blowing smoke?

Perhaps, or maybe it's just a tactic to push a certain potential customer to order?
 
mikey72
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RE: New Airline Looks To Use C-Series LCY-NYC

Tue Dec 20, 2011 8:24 am

I'm imagining that the BA service has also got the clout of Oneworld anti-trust behind it too.....?
Flying is like sex - I've never had all I wanted but occasionally I've had all I can stand.
 
edina
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RE: New Airline Looks To Use C-Series LCY-NYC

Tue Dec 20, 2011 11:30 am

Quoting shamrock604 (Reply 23):
The US do not seem all that keen, and thus far, Ireland and Canada are the only countries which have them.

And Bermuda......  
Worked on - Caravelle Mercure A300 A320 F27 SD3-60 BAe146 747-100/200/400 DC10-30 767 777 737-400 757 A319 A321
 
skipness1E
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RE: New Airline Looks To Use C-Series LCY-NYC

Tue Dec 20, 2011 12:03 pm

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 27):
Get BMI, Virgin, and probably a couple American carriers putting their codes on the flight, selling tickets, and awarding their frequent flier miles to passengers.

What on Earth is in it for BMI? Why would Virgin want their code on this? I do not see any commercial gain for the COMPETITOR to do such a thing.

If they can do a reliable non stop LCY-NYC then they're onto something, however I suspect the option of coming back JFK-LCY on BA will be a better experience. I doubt this will pay, it is MaxJet, Eos and Silverjet all over again.
I wonder if Martin Halstead is involved yet?

http://uk.news.yahoo.com/exclusive-a...lans-london-city-ny-163752536.html
The article says "When travelling westbound, BA's twice-daily flights have to stop in Ireland to refuel. That is because the A318, the smallest member of the Airbus fleet, lacks enough range to make the whole trip against prevailing headwinds." which is wrong, it's not a lack of range that's the issue, it's the ability to lift enough fuel out of LCY's runway. School boy error that one!

[Edited 2011-12-20 04:07:59]
 
BMIFlyer
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RE: New Airline Looks To Use C-Series LCY-NYC

Tue Dec 20, 2011 12:45 pm

The problem I see regarding this project is the LCY ramp space - specifically the CS100 wingspan - its 4ft wider than the A318, and as for the fuselage length well the CS100 is 12ft longer than the A318. LCY struggles to accommodate 2 A318's in the rush hour so you can see where I'm going with this.....

I welcome competition however  
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mcr
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RE: New Airline Looks To Use C-Series LCY-NYC

Tue Dec 20, 2011 12:50 pm

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 27):
And well-heeled (reasonably) leisure travelers won't really see the appeal of LCY and certainly won't be willing to pay a premium.

There are a lot of people that just don't seem to get it. If you don't understand the appeal of LCY, I'll bet you don't live or work anywhere east of the middle of London (i.e. where the main financial centers of "the city" and Canary Wharf are located, not to mention at least half of London's population).

I used to live at Canary Wharf, and travelled regularly to my companys offices around Europe. Via LCY I would routinely get to our offices in Amsterdam, Brussels, or Paris, sometimes even Frankfurt, in less time than it would take me just to get across London to Heathrow, never mind board a flight. Coming home to LCY I could land, collect my luggage, get home, and be eating my dinner in less time than it typically takes for the first bag to appear on the carousel when arriving at Heathrow.

Generally I didn't even use Heathrow for trips to the US - I'd choose to go from LCY and change at AMS / CDG / FRA / ZRH instead. Might not save any time but it was typically a much less stressful experience than LHR (and of course, as an a.nutter, why take one flight when you can take two - it was hardly ever any more expensive).
 
skipness1E
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RE: New Airline Looks To Use C-Series LCY-NYC

Tue Dec 20, 2011 1:01 pm

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 27):
And well-heeled (reasonably) leisure travelers won't really see the appeal of LCY and certainly won't be willing to pay a premium

Odd then that the BA CityFlyer sun routes to Ibiza, Faro, Malaga and Faro did so well this summer that they took slots off the business routes. Ibiza! Look at the prices to fly on a Fokker 50 into France beyond Paris with CityJet from LCY, there's a good premium leisure market that does pay the markup.
I think unless you've lived on the Wharf or thereabouts, you just won't get it at all. As like all London airports, it's a very particular niche, but a very good one.

[Edited 2011-12-20 05:03:38]
 
seansasLCY
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RE: New Airline Looks To Use C-Series LCY-NYC

Tue Dec 20, 2011 1:29 pm

Quoting BMIFlyer (Reply 35):
The problem I see regarding this project is the LCY ramp space - specifically the CS100 wingspan - its 4ft wider than the A318, and as for the fuselage length well the CS100 is 12ft longer than the A318. LCY struggles to accommodate 2 A318's in the rush hour so you can see where I'm going with this.....

LCY is addressing this issue. They plan to build new stands. More can be found here.

http://www.londoncityairport.com/dow...SRP%20Runway%20News%20Dec%2011.pdf
 
Burkhard
Posts: 1916
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RE: New Airline Looks To Use C-Series LCY-NYC

Tue Dec 20, 2011 1:40 pm

I beleive it when it lands in JFK. All we know of the CS100 up to now is that it is optimzed for low range...
 
ytz
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RE: New Airline Looks To Use C-Series LCY-NYC

Tue Dec 20, 2011 2:34 pm

I had suggested once that this was possible and some laughed off the idea. It's good to know there's a still a few dreamers in the aviation business.

Sure, it'll be tough without a strong established brand behind them. But it's not impossible. It all depends on how they position the service and how much they charge. Brand loyalty may be important. But so are corporate travel budgets. And the employees' time. An all-business class service with reasonable fares and good frequencies would be a compelling offering.
 
vv701
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RE: New Airline Looks To Use C-Series LCY-NYC

Tue Dec 20, 2011 2:40 pm

Does the CS-100 have the ability to follow the strict noise abatement rules at LCY? If memory serves me correctly these require a seven-and-one-half degree glide approach.
 
hooverman
Posts: 326
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RE: New Airline Looks To Use C-Series LCY-NYC

Tue Dec 20, 2011 2:58 pm

Quoting VV701 (Reply 42):
Does the CS-100 have the ability to follow the strict noise abatement rules at LCY? If memory serves me correctly these require a seven-and-one-half degree glide approach.

They have ordered the aircraft so I would imagine they have done some research on rules and regulations on the airports they want to serve.
 
skipness1E
Posts: 4880
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RE: New Airline Looks To Use C-Series LCY-NYC

Tue Dec 20, 2011 3:05 pm

Quoting VV701 (Reply 42):
have the ability to follow the strict noise abatement rules at LCY

Isn't that for terrain clearance against Canary Wharf? The restriction on Westerlies was against a bridge that was never built.
 
babybus
Posts: 2379
Joined: Sun Dec 28, 2003 5:07 am

RE: New Airline Looks To Use C-Series LCY-NYC

Tue Dec 20, 2011 3:18 pm

Quoting AA737-823 (Reply 5):
Sorry, but LCY just ain't that big a draw, in my opinion, to poach passengers away from well-entrenched entities like BA, AA, VA, UA, DL, et al.

I tend to agree. It's a bad pairing LCY and JFK. Traffic must be minimal. BA have tie ups with London banks to fill their seats.

The C-series will probably have to do LCY-SNN-JFK like BA. A copycat product just won't pull the punters. The guys setting this company up need to have their heads examined, in my humble opinion.
and with that..cabin crew, seats for landing please.
 
vv701
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RE: New Airline Looks To Use C-Series LCY-NYC

Tue Dec 20, 2011 4:42 pm

Quoting skipness1E (Reply 43):
Isn't that for terrain clearance against Canary Wharf?

I do not think so. Under the "Noise" section on the LCACC (London City Airport Consultative Committee) web page at:

http://www.lcacc.org/noise/index.html#Permitted

it says:

"Aircraft must also be capable of making an approach at 5.5 degrees or steeper - this compares with 3 degrees at most other airports."

Note here that I earlier suggested that (if I remembered correctly) the approach had to be at 7.5 and not the correct 5.5 degree glide path. Also note that Canary Wharf is north of LCY and the runway is orientated east-west, so there is no issue about height clearance there.

All aircraft types operating into LCY have first to be type certified before they are allowed to use the airport. While it is true that BA ordered E170s for use by BA CityFlyer out of LCY before type certification had been issued for the E-Jet, my recollection is that all the necessary tests leading up to certification had been successfully completed at that time. It was just a matter of when the final paper work and approval would be issued.

I have seen nothing about CS-100 certification or tests at LCY. But perhaps I missed it?

For reference purposes the above comments are confirmed in the "Operations" section of the LCACC web site that says:

"ALL aircraft using the Airport must be of an approved type. To qualify for approval an aircraft must fit into one of the above noise categories and be capable of making an approach at 5.5 degrees or steeper (this compares with 3 degrees at most other airports)."
 
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lightsaber
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RE: New Airline Looks To Use C-Series LCY-NYC

Tue Dec 20, 2011 5:11 pm

Quoting czbbflier (Reply 29):
In the end, the airline may not be a success but if the numbers actually work out the way this Odyssey outfit and BBD say they will, this experiment will prove the aircraft to be a hell of a flying machine and a massive game-changer.

I agree with your conclusion. This Odessey might or might not work out, but for Bombardier, it will be a sales bonanza from the PR.

Quoting seansasLCY (Reply 38):
LCY is addressing this issue. They plan to build new stands. More can be found here.

I note the CS100 from Swiss is shown. So something is being done to accomodate the C-series...

Holy cow is that plan a change for LCY!
Effectively a full taxiway
I count 15 C-series sized stands!    (of 18 in Option #1)

If Option #1 is built, LCY could move a few more aircraft per day *and* upgauge from 50/70 seaters to the C-series for most flights.    That link is a boon to Bombardier!

Quoting VV701 (Reply 41):
Does the CS-100 have the ability to follow the strict noise abatement rules at LCY? If memory serves me correctly these require a seven-and-one-half degree glide approach.

That is a software/flap setting change for the sevan and one half degree glide slope. This will be like the E170, something not done for the EIS rush, but completed within a reasonable time after EIS. It is already a requirement for Swiss' order.

The CS100 also has GTF engines. It will certainly be quieter than the A318, even with the added fuel for a non-stop TATL.

Lightsaber
I cannot wait to get vaccinated to live again! Warning: I simulated that it takes 50%+ vaccinated to protect the vaccinated and 75%+ vaccinated to protect the vac-hesitant.
 
seansasLCY
Posts: 1127
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RE: New Airline Looks To Use C-Series LCY-NYC

Tue Dec 20, 2011 5:44 pm

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 46):
I note the CS100 from Swiss is shown. So something is being done to accomodate the C-series...

Holy cow is that plan a change for LCY!
Effectively a full taxiway

I think the downside to the plan is that all the current stands to the left of the terminal will be decommissioned. They could have been saved to encourage smaller aircraft such as the Dornier DO-328 and similar aircraft.
 
something
Posts: 1239
Joined: Fri May 13, 2011 5:29 pm

RE: New Airline Looks To Use C-Series LCY-NYC

Tue Dec 20, 2011 6:08 pm

Quoting YTZ (Reply 40):

I had suggested once that this was possible and some laughed off the idea. It's good to know there's a still a few dreamers in the aviation business.

If they think this is going to work, they must indeed be dreamers.

Quoting YTZ (Reply 40):
Sure, it'll be tough without a strong established brand behind them. But it's not impossible. It all depends on how they position the service and how much they charge. Brand loyalty may be important. But so are corporate travel budgets. And the employees' time. An all-business class service with reasonable fares and good frequencies would be a compelling offering.

The idea in and of itself isn't bad and nobody's said that. There will just be no operational margin for them to make any money on this route. Not only will they be hard-pressed to establish a big enough customer base, but they'll also be going head-to-head against BA on the route. BA can lower their prices, improve their product, throw out a bunch of promotions and it won't even matter to them if the route becomes unprofitable for a few weeks/months. The new start up will eventually run out of money, cease operations and BA will go back to business as usual.

With all these daily flights between London and New York, yields should already look very grim. As nice as the idea sounds, I just don't think they'll be able to carve out a big enough niche to subsist on.
..sick of it. -K. Pilkington.
 
BMI727
Posts: 11300
Joined: Mon Feb 02, 2009 9:29 pm

RE: New Airline Looks To Use C-Series LCY-NYC

Tue Dec 20, 2011 6:26 pm

Quoting skipness1E (Reply 34):
What on Earth is in it for BMI? Why would Virgin want their code on this? I do not see any commercial gain for the COMPETITOR to do such a thing.

Very simple: they get a product on par with BA's all-business class service to offer some of the highest yielding frequent fliers they have with minimal cost.

Quoting skipness1E (Reply 37):
As like all London airports, it's a very particular niche, but a very good one.

That's just it, it's a niche. And not necessarily one that will work for a new entrant with no frequent flier base.

Quoting something (Reply 48):
I just don't think they'll be able to carve out a big enough niche to subsist on.

It won't be. I like their chances flying leisure routes out of LCY better than I like their chances as a premium carrier trying to do it alone flying to New York.
Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?

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