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klmcedric
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KLM Axes Miami

Tue Dec 20, 2011 4:30 pm

According to www.luchtvaartnieuws.nl klm will end service to Miami at the end of March 2012.
Reason for the termination of the route is that no profit is being made and also the competition from Arkefly .
 
santos
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RE: KLM Axes Miami

Tue Dec 20, 2011 4:34 pm

I thought the route was being increased from 4 to 5 weekly from JUN12, and the A333-200 will replace the MD11 on that route.
 
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andrefranca
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RE: KLM Axes Miami

Tue Dec 20, 2011 4:39 pm

and they made a huuuge commercial on their youtube channel, about this route, when they changed the schedule innaugural flight because costumers asked through twitter and they made a party in the sky with djs etc.. etc... (they got into the guiness book because of that) ... as the dutch say: Jammer  http://youtu.be/9sHY7xrB2Ac
 
jasoncrh
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RE: KLM Axes Miami

Tue Dec 20, 2011 4:47 pm

Not surprised. MIA is kind of a dump, and there really are only a few markets that work from there for a premium carrier. AMS and beyond really just isnt it.

Quoting klmcedric (Thread starter):
According to www.luchtvaartnieuws.nl klm will end service to Miami at the end of March 2012.
Reason for the termination of the route is that no profit is being made and also the competition from Arkefly .
 
MaverickM11
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RE: KLM Axes Miami

Tue Dec 20, 2011 4:48 pm

This route has been all over the place: KLM, Martinair, Arkefly, tagged with SJO, untagged, service in and out, out completely, back in...seems like everyone had their go and they all independently discovered it doesn't work.

[Edited 2011-12-20 08:49:35]
I don't take responsibility at all
 
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LAXintl
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RE: KLM Axes Miami

Tue Dec 20, 2011 5:07 pm

Well that did not last long. As mentioned route only recommenced in March 2011.

Interesting this is KLM's 2nd departure from Miami. It closed up shop prior in 2004.
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
miaami
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RE: KLM Axes Miami

Tue Dec 20, 2011 5:20 pm

One less SkyTeam route out of Miami. I guess the DL feed did not make that much of a difference.
 
WA707atMSP
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RE: KLM Axes Miami

Tue Dec 20, 2011 5:28 pm

Quoting JasonCRH (Reply 3):
Not surprised. MIA is kind of a dump

As other people have said on here, some Miami routes are very high yield. Although there are a few not-so-nice areas of MIA, most of Miami Airport's catchment area is most definitely NOT a dump!
 
jasoncrh
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RE: KLM Axes Miami

Tue Dec 20, 2011 5:29 pm

I know, i was exaggerating. I know a lot of people like Miami.. not my cup of tea.

as I also said, some routes are high yield and do well... apparently it just doest work at AMS.

Quoting WA707atMSP (Reply 7):
As other people have said on here, some Miami routes are very high yield. Although there are a few not-so-nice areas of MIA, most of Miami Airport's catchment area is most definitely NOT a dump!
 
SKY1
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RE: KLM Axes Miami

Tue Dec 20, 2011 5:53 pm

Quoting miaami (Reply 6):
One less SkyTeam route out of Miami.

The other one is Air Europa which is going to cut MIA soon, coming early next year.
Time flies! Enjoy life!
 
kl911
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RE: KLM Axes Miami

Tue Dec 20, 2011 6:16 pm

Wow! I didnt see this one coming. I was sure they had it planned well the second time and at least ran the numbers.
How can they have made such a mistake? Could it have been cancellations of corporate contracts due to the crisis?

How much is the investment to set up a new route? I agree that Miami is not popular in The Netherlands. We generally prefer the South of France if we need beaches. And Miami has a bad, criminal, dangerous, reputation.

Unfortunately.....
 
A388
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RE: KLM Axes Miami

Tue Dec 20, 2011 6:21 pm

So much for everybody who said this route would or is working well for KL. I said it all along, the route wouldn't be a success and look at the route now...

A388
 
slcdeltarumd11
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RE: KLM Axes Miami

Tue Dec 20, 2011 6:22 pm

I thought people on here kept screaming MIA was SO hot a market to Europe. Clearly its only a few markets this is a pretty quick retreat which means its bleeding money and a ton of it to retreat so quickly. DL has recently downsized MIA-LHR now that they have lie flat seats in the 767s but that might be the next Europe route to watch.
 
flyyul
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RE: KLM Axes Miami

Tue Dec 20, 2011 6:24 pm

MIA capacity situation is ridiculous. In less than 1 year there's been incremental service to BCN/MXP/LHR/ORY/MUC etc etc. Somebody was going to lose.
 
gen2stew
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RE: KLM Axes Miami

Tue Dec 20, 2011 6:37 pm

All the people hollering (yes, hollering. It fits) about AA letting the competetion invade seems, well, silly now. If there is a buck, let alone a premium buck to be made, I think AA would be on it...
I don't know why blessings wear disguises. If I were a blessing, I'd run around nude!
 
A388
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RE: KLM Axes Miami

Tue Dec 20, 2011 6:39 pm

Quoting slcdeltarumd11 (Reply 12):
I thought people on here kept screaming MIA was SO hot a market to Europe. Clearly its only a few markets this is a pretty quick retreat which means its bleeding money and a ton of it to retreat so quickly.

Yes, some members here were indeed screaming that. I never expected this route to do well.

A388
 
peanuts
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RE: KLM Axes Miami

Tue Dec 20, 2011 6:50 pm

I guess it's clear now CDG-MIA is sufficient for AF/KL, including SkyTeam.

I still believe a DL B767 MIA-AMS would make the numbers look a lot better though...

Maybe it can't be done since DL is already taking on a larger share of TA flying it seems.
The JV has to keep the flying duties balanced according to agreements (including pilots) somehow.

If Arkefly is truly a major reason??? Bad, bad, bad KLM! You did not do your homework! (bad for "counting" on the tight Dutch O&D tourist Euro, a 3 year old could have figured that one out).

The truth however: KL needs a healthy dose of AMS connecting traffic, including in business class. In this case, there is not enough of it and CDG could easily handle the load, apparently.

[Edited 2011-12-20 11:10:46]
 
bmacleod
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RE: KLM Axes Miami

Tue Dec 20, 2011 6:55 pm

KL is owned by AF, I guess loads on AF CDG-MIA still good...
"What good are wings without the courage to fly?" - Atticus
 
kiwiandrew

RE: KLM Axes Miami

Tue Dec 20, 2011 7:01 pm

Quoting bmacleod (Reply 17):
KL is owned by AF,

KL is not owned by AF. Both KL and AF are both jointly owned by the same holding company Air France-KLM .

According to wiki private shareholders own 81.4% of the company with 37% held by former Air France shareholders and 21% held by former KLM shareholders. The Government of France owns the remaining 18.6%.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_France-KLM
 
tommy767
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RE: KLM Axes Miami

Tue Dec 20, 2011 7:03 pm

Quoting kiwiandrew (Reply 18):
KL is not owned by AF. Both KL and AF are both jointly owned by the same holding company Air France-KLM .

this is the second major KL/AF pullout with no plans of DL replacing it. The first being CDG-EWR on AF will be ending in March with no firm replacement either...

Me thinks that both canned routes have potential.
"KEEP CLIMBING" -- DELTA
 
Viscount724
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RE: KLM Axes Miami

Tue Dec 20, 2011 7:07 pm

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 5):
Well that did not last long. As mentioned route only recommenced in March 2011.

Interesting this is KLM's 2nd departure from Miami. It closed up shop prior in 2004.

NW also operated AMS-MIA for a while as part of the KL-NW joint venture. That was my last flight on a DC-10 in June 2002.
 
PI4EVER
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RE: KLM Axes Miami

Tue Dec 20, 2011 7:26 pm

DL to step in........with one of those dreaded 763's....with or without the bells and whistles of a modified one....to at least run it seasonally for a ATL, JFK, DTW, MSP alternative?
A couple other crazies like me have suggested such. Me thinks it just might work.....even in view of their intra-FL flying reduction effective in March. Fares to AMS and routings via AMS in season are high and even sharing revenue through the JV/ATI the route has potential.
Arkefly IS NOT offering $199 fares so don't get all excited that this low fare carrier ran KL out of the market.
watch what you want. you may get it.
 
qm001
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RE: KLM Axes Miami

Tue Dec 20, 2011 7:34 pm

What surprises me is that TP is able to make this work with their impressive but certainly uncomparable network, yet KL cannot???? TP has even mentioned that their numbers are great!
I wish there was still a flying boat service on the African Lakes!
 
MAH4546
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RE: KLM Axes Miami

Tue Dec 20, 2011 7:38 pm

Very surprising, especially as KLM had already announced additional service on MIAAMS starting June 2012. MIAAMS is a low yield market, but it's a very large local market approaching 100 PDEW. To say Florida isnt popular with the Dutch goes against the very fact that its a very large local market, both to Miami and Orlando. I didn't expect Arkefly to be a major thorn on KLM's side on this route, and I don't buy that it was. Two 767s tag onto with Sanford isn't going to drive KLM out. It's an excuse. Loads have been amazing, to not make money on those loads is pretty bad. Looks like KLM simply couldn't get connections to the higher yielding markets it needed and doesn't have the patience to wait it out (new routes rarely make money straight out the gate).

Then again, the way the economy is going, MIA was bound to see cuts this summer, and AFKL just doesn't want to wait it
out. Would have worked better as a DL 763, I bet, which was what was originally rumored to be the operating equipment.

Quoting peanuts (Reply 16):
The truth however: KL needs a healthy dose of AMS connecting traffic, including in business class. In this case, there is not enough of it and CDG could easily handle the load, apparently.

The MD11 only has about two dozen or so C seats. I think KLM went into this knowing very well the premium demand isn't there in this market. And don't they have a new A330 fleet coming configured for leisure markets?

Quoting qm001 (Reply 22):

What surprises me is that TP is able to make this work with their impressive but certainly uncomparable network, yet KL cannot???? TP has even mentioned that their numbers are great!

Miami has very strong business ties with Portugal, including being the North American headquarters of Espirito Santo. I'm willing to bet TAP is having a much easier time filling the plane with business passengers and connections to Miami-Europe's most important business markets after the UK: Spain, Italy and Switzerland.

And another thing I'm willing to bet on: axing the route was a decision by the ST ATI airlines to help prop up MIALHR, which is doing amazing on loads, but I bet struggles with yield as its hard to steal the premium traffic from AA/BA here. The alliance rather go with MIALHR than MIAAMS.

[Edited 2011-12-20 11:43:56]
a.
 
A388
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RE: KLM Axes Miami

Tue Dec 20, 2011 7:51 pm

Quoting mah4546 (Reply 23):
To say Florida isnt popular with the Dutch goes against the very fact that its a very large local market, both to Miami and Orlando.

That the supposedly Dutch market in Florida just isn't there, period. As I have said it before, there is no significant Dutch market to/from Florida. It just isn't there.

Quoting mah4546 (Reply 23):
Loads have been amazing, to not make money on those loads is pretty bad. Looks like KLM simply couldn't get connections to the higher yielding markets it needed and doesn't have the patience to wait it out (new routes rarely make money straight out the gate).

In other words, loads never were amazing (enough).

A388
 
santos
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RE: KLM Axes Miami

Tue Dec 20, 2011 7:53 pm

Quoting qm001 (Reply 22):
What surprises me is that TP is able to make this work with their impressive but certainly uncomparable network, yet KL cannot???? TP has even mentioned that their numbers are great!

TP is increasing LIS-MIA from 5x weekly to 6x weekly next summer.
 
fpetrutiu
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RE: KLM Axes Miami

Tue Dec 20, 2011 8:01 pm

Hopefully this will bring back MCO-AMS in some flavor. MCO lost it when MartinAir stopped flying passengers. I think KLM could make it profitable (especially later with the 787's    
Florin
Orlando, FL
 
airbazar
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RE: KLM Axes Miami

Tue Dec 20, 2011 8:06 pm

Quoting qm001 (Reply 22):
What surprises me is that TP is able to make this work with their impressive but certainly uncomparable network, yet KL cannot???? TP has even mentioned that their numbers are great!

Uncomparable in what way? How is TPs European network inferior to KL's for the MIA market?
If anything I'm surprised that TP is doing as well as they are without tapping into their own MXP conenctions. From what I understand, Milan is MIA's largest unserved market and TP's MXP flights don't offer good connections to the MIA flight.
 
MAH4546
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RE: KLM Axes Miami

Tue Dec 20, 2011 8:07 pm

Quoting A388 (Reply 24):
That the supposedly Dutch market in Florida just isn't there, period. As I have said it before, there is no significant Dutch market to/from Florida. It just isn't there.

It is there. I don't know why you want to argue this without anything to base your assertion on. I can look up O&D. Well over 200,000 flew between Amsterdam and MIA/FLL/MCO in 2010. That doesn't include leakage to DUS, and those numbers undoubtedly went up in 2011. Florida is insanely popular with the Dutch. It's hysterical you refuse to accept this fact.

Quoting airbazar (Reply 27):
Milan is MIA's largest unserved market and TP's MXP flights don't offer good connections to the MIA flight.

Alitalia flies MIAMXP, but not daily.

Quoting fpetrutiu (Reply 26):

Hopefully this will bring back MCO-AMS in some flavor. MCO lost it when MartinAir stopped flying passengers. I think KLM could make it profitable (especially later with the 787's    


If KLM can't make MIAAMS work, forget about MCOAMS. And MCOAMS doesn't need a 787. It would never work on a 787 - too small. The market is large, low yield. Needs a high-density plane.

[Edited 2011-12-20 12:10:10]
a.
 
jasoncrh
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RE: KLM Axes Miami

Tue Dec 20, 2011 8:13 pm

Maybe it's a big market, but if it's trash fares it doesnt matter HOW MUCH trash there is... it still smells bad and deoesnt work.

Quoting mah4546 (Reply 23):
Very surprising, especially as KLM had already announced additional service on MIAAMS starting June 2012. MIAAMS is a low yield market, but it's a very large local market approaching 100 PDEW. To say Florida isnt popular with the Dutch goes against the very fact that its a very large local market, both to Miami and Orlando. I didn't expect Arkefly to be a major thorn on KLM's side on this route, and I don't buy that it was. Two 767s tag onto with Sanford isn't going to drive KLM out. It's an excuse. Loads have been amazing, to not make money on those loads is pretty bad. Looks like KLM simply couldn't get connections to the higher yielding markets it needed and doesn't have the patience to wait it out (new routes rarely make money straight out the gate).

HIGHLY doubt that. Very different markets and at the end of the day rather independent of each other. I'd be shocked if they actually made that decision, given my experience working in the inner workings of ATI/ revenue sharing at various airlines. I think you'd be surprised at how disparate the decisions usually are.

Quoting mah4546 (Reply 23):
And another thing I'm willing to bet on: axing the route was a decision by the ST ATI airlines to help prop up MIALHR, which is doing amazing on loads, but I bet struggles with yield as its hard to steal the premium traffic from AA/BA here. The alliance rather go with MIALHR than MIAAMS.
 
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MillwallSean
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RE: KLM Axes Miami

Tue Dec 20, 2011 8:29 pm

Quoting mah4546 (Reply 28):

It is there. I don't know why you want to argue this without anything to base your assertion on. I can look up O&D. Well over 200,000 flew between Amsterdam and MIA/FLL/MCO in 2010. That doesn't include leakage to DUS, and those numbers undoubtedly went up in 2011. Florida is insanely popular with the Dutch. It's hysterical you refuse to accept this fact.

Florida isn't insanely popular with dutch people. Thats just rubbish. Anyone that's been to Holland knows that. The only place where Florida is very popular in Europe is the UK. Its one among many holiday destinations in Northern Europe.
KL has just canned the route due to it being underperforming but yet you argue that the place is awesome and has such enormous potential. Rosetinted glasses...
KL ending the route so soon after start up should if nothing else put an end to the discussion about Floridas so called insane popularity with the dutch.

Florida is a charter destination from many European countries. When the dollar is weak it's an easy place to visit especially for brits. Charter passengers doesn't spend a cent more than they have to and travel agents buy the tickets in bulk. KL isnt in the business of hauling charter tourists on package holidays. Others can do that.

Also if demand for charter tourists is to Orlando, don't expect them to fly into Miami. Thats not how charter works.
No One Likes Us - We Dont Care.
 
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N62NA
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RE: KLM Axes Miami

Tue Dec 20, 2011 8:37 pm

Quoting mah4546 (Reply 28):
Florida is insanely popular with the Dutch.

There are 3 Floridas: South Florida (MIA / FLL / MCO), Orlando, and then everything else. Clearly MIA / FLL / MCO wasn't popular enough with the Dutch.
 
airbazar
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RE: KLM Axes Miami

Tue Dec 20, 2011 8:48 pm

Quoting JasonCRH (Reply 29):
Maybe it's a big market, but if it's trash fares it doesnt matter HOW MUCH trash there is... it still smells bad and deoesnt work.

Well, not exactly. A lot of carriers make it work. BA, AF, VS just to name a few. So what is the difference? They deploy big, high density aircraft to combat the low yields. KL doesn't have such a plane.
 
panamair
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RE: KLM Axes Miami

Tue Dec 20, 2011 8:52 pm

Delta has pretty much given up chasing market share (except for some strategically important markets like London), and is willing to give up routes which cannot generate enough revenue to cover costs; this approach has served them well as they have been able to report decent profits despite the fuel environment and economic uncertainties this year. As a result, this has recently been extended to AFKLAZ with the JV (AFKL pretty much had no choice given their current financial situation). The entire DLAFKLAZ JV is planning for continued high fuel costs and a recession in Europe in 2012, which means transatlantic capacity cuts even in the high summer season. The JV's capacity cuts across the Pond this winter are already helping, as Delta expects to report a pretty healthy (for the low season) 6 to 8% operating margin for the 4th quarter.

Many of you talk about the profitability of routes in black and white, as if their viability is etched in stone regardless of the surrounding environment. Truth is, a route may be viable in one year but not the next. The JV probably saw that MIA-Europe had too much capacity given the projected fuel and economic environment in 2012, and took the decision as a whole - looking at MIA-CDG, MIA-LHR, MIA-AMS, MIA-MXP, MIA-FCO. MIA-AMS was probably the weakest of all of these and hence got the axe. MIA-LHR could be weak as well, but LHR is of strategic importance so they will find ways to hang in there (reducing capacity from 764 to 763).

[Edited 2011-12-20 12:53:45]
 
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N62NA
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RE: KLM Axes Miami

Tue Dec 20, 2011 8:53 pm

Quoting airbazar (Reply 32):
A lot of carriers make it work. BA, AF, VS just to name a few. So what is the difference? They deploy big, high density aircraft to combat the low yields. KL doesn't have such a plane.

Isn't the MD-11 a big, high density aircraft with KL?
 
flyyul
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RE: KLM Axes Miami

Tue Dec 20, 2011 9:06 pm

I suspect the best airplane for KL is the 287 seater A330-200 from a seat/cost perspective
 
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DeltaMD90
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RE: KLM Axes Miami

Tue Dec 20, 2011 9:12 pm

Quoting panamair (Reply 33):
Many of you talk about the profitability of routes in black and white, as if their viability is etched in stone regardless of the surrounding environment. Truth is, a route may be viable in one year but not the next. The JV probably saw that MIA-Europe had too much capacity given the projected fuel and economic environment in 2012, and took the decision as a whole - looking at MIA-CDG, MIA-LHR, MIA-AMS, MIA-MXP, MIA-FCO. MIA-AMS was probably the weakest of all of these and hence got the axe. MIA-LHR could be weak as well, but LHR is of strategic importance so they will find ways to hang in there (reducing capacity from 764 to 763).

      This.

Many think because a carrier drops a route, they're getting their tails handed to them. KL (and AF and DL) are smart to drop routes that can't make money. I foresee many routes, maybe even more MIA-Europes, being continued when the economy picks up
 
slvrblt
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RE: KLM Axes Miami

Tue Dec 20, 2011 9:12 pm

Quoting GEN2STEW (Reply 14):
All the people hollering (yes, hollering. It fits) about AA letting the competetion invade seems, well, silly now. If there is a buck, let alone a premium buck to be made, I think AA would be on it...

Yep. Sure would. Full planes but yucky yields spell doom for a route and is a non-starter for one yet unflown.

Quoting mah4546 (Reply 28):
If KLM can't make MIAAMS work, forget about MCOAMS. And MCOAMS doesn't need a 787. It would never work on a 787 - too small. The market is large, low yield. Needs a high-density plane.

That's for sure. But Mah4546.....correct me if I'm wrong but didn't Martinair have a thriving operation out of MCO that did well? I seem to think/remember that they had an MD11 in all coach config that flew that trip. I knew the Martinair Station Manager here in MIA and I'm almost sure she told me that once.

Quoting mah4546 (Reply 28):
litalia flies MIAMXP, but not daily.

Some times of the year they could probably make a go of it daily, along with their ROM flight.
..everything works out in the end.
 
A388
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RE: KLM Axes Miami

Tue Dec 20, 2011 9:17 pm

Quoting mah4546 (Reply 28):
It is there. I don't know why you want to argue this without anything to base your assertion on. I can look up O&D. Well over 200,000 flew between Amsterdam and MIA/FLL/MCO in 2010. That doesn't include leakage to DUS, and those numbers undoubtedly went up in 2011. Florida is insanely popular with the Dutch. It's hysterical you refuse to accept this fact.

It's hysterical how you keep insisting on a market that supposedly is there while it's not.

Quoting JasonCRH (Reply 29):
Maybe it's a big market, but if it's trash fares it doesnt matter HOW MUCH trash there is... it still smells bad and deoesnt work.
Quoting MillwallSean (Reply 30):
Florida isn't insanely popular with dutch people. Thats just rubbish. Anyone that's been to Holland knows that.

Yes, that is the truth. I have lived in the Netherlands for 10 years and have seen the Dutch travellers going on holidays and I have worked at Schiphol Airport for 6 of those 10 years. MIA was never a destination that was looked at by most Dutch people. Florida isn't insanely popular among Dutch people, never was and may never be. What mah4546 says just ins't as exciting as mah4546 says it is, far from it.

A388
 
ATL
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RE: KLM Axes Miami

Tue Dec 20, 2011 9:19 pm

That's very surprising. Although it's a safe assumption to say that DL wanted some help on their MIA-LHR route, and thus KLM pulled out of MIA (along with poor loads). They'll be back though, the 787 will be the ideal aircraft for the route, especially by the time they go online.
 
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IrishAyes
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RE: KLM Axes Miami

Tue Dec 20, 2011 9:24 pm

Quoting N62NA (Reply 31):
There are 3 Floridas: South Florida (MIA / FLL / MCO), Orlando

MCO and Orlando are the same thing, or are you referring to the first group collectively as one that visits MIA and MCO in the same trip? I am confused...

Quoting panamair (Reply 33):
MIA-LHR could be weak as well, but LHR is of strategic importance so they will find ways to hang in there (reducing capacity from 764 to 763).

I think this is key here. No doubt the MIA-Europe trends present an interesting case study. I think a few things are for certain:

1. The power of OneWorld is no doubt at large. AA/BA/IB ATI to LHR and MAD in particular. However, this really does accentuate how AA really missed the boat in building up MIA to the potential it could have, instead of focusing just on ORD (as before, and now to fewer avail) and JFK (up against major competition with DL and UA).

2. SkyTeam will funnel traffic via CDG and LHR.

3. Star will stick with the 'token' routes to FRA, LIS and ZRH, with a seasonal DUS.

Unsure about all the talk with TK, and additionally, the market will become even more interesting whenever EK decides to join the Miami crew.
 
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Flying Belgian
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RE: KLM Axes Miami

Tue Dec 20, 2011 9:33 pm

Quoting flyyul (Reply 35):
I suspect the best airplane for KL is the 287 seater A330-200 from a seat/cost perspective

Yes but not in MIA case and taking into account KLM's fleet particularities. Leisure markets = MD11. They'll never send an A332 in MIA. The A330-300 could be THE bird for that destination, but they really need it for West Africa when they receive the first ones.

In AF-KL perspective this withdrawal would totally make sense. And AF also operates to MCO with a dense config 777.
Life is great at 41.000 feet...
 
slvrblt
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RE: KLM Axes Miami

Tue Dec 20, 2011 9:45 pm

Quoting IrishAyes (Reply 40):
1. The power of OneWorld is no doubt at large. AA/BA/IB ATI to LHR and MAD in particular. However, this really does accentuate how AA really missed the boat in building up MIA to the potential it could have, instead of focusing just on ORD (as before, and now to fewer avail) and JFK (up against major competition with DL and UA).

AA didn't miss any boats in MIA. AA/AE would be up to DFW's nearly 500 flights a day if it could have done so. The physical plant cannot support such an operation. MDAD has a huge issue on its hands with the baggage system here. The OW carriers are supposed to be coming over to live in the north Terminal with AA too, but that's not going to happen either - with no belts.

When the north terminal opened, and the baggage belt system was turned on, it failed in a couple of weeks. It hasn't been turned on since, and that's been well over a year. I think the last I heard it may be online next summer........ but until there is a workable baggage system we're kind of stuck at the level it's at now.
..everything works out in the end.
 
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N62NA
Posts: 4502
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RE: KLM Axes Miami

Tue Dec 20, 2011 9:53 pm

Quoting IrishAyes (Reply 40):
MCO and Orlando are the same thing, or are you referring to the first group collectively as one that visits MIA and MCO in the same trip? I am confused...

Oops, I meant this:

There are 3 Floridas: South Florida (MIA / FLL / PBI), Orlando, and then everything else. Clearly MIA / FLL / PBI wasn't popular enough with the Dutch.
 
Jonathanxxxx
Posts: 345
Joined: Sat Feb 05, 2011 7:48 pm

RE: KLM Axes Miami

Tue Dec 20, 2011 9:57 pm

Quoting JasonCRH (Reply 29):
Maybe it's a big market, but if it's trash fares it doesnt matter HOW MUCH trash there is... it still smells bad and deoesnt work.

For AMS, that is the case. The traffic is there, but with most of it being low-yeild, and already a large amount of low-yeild passengers on Arkefly. The only passengers left were the few high yeild passengers and low-yeild transit passengers willing to go out of the way for Italy, Spain and the UK.

Quoting MillwallSean (Reply 30):
The only place where Florida is very popular in Europe is the UK.

I'm sorry but I don't think I've ever seen such an ignorant statement. Yes Florida is extremely popular in the UK, namely Disney World. Although the average Spaniard or Italian probably knows more about Miami than Orlando. Miami is popular not only with people from the UK but also people from: Italy, Spain, Portugal, Russia, Germany, France and MANY other European countries. To say that Florida is only popular in the UK is just plain uninformed. Unless of course, you meant Orlando by itself.

Quoting MillwallSean (Reply 30):
KL ending the route so soon after start up should if nothing else put an end to the discussion about Floridas so called insane popularity with the dutch.

The traffic is there, just since most of it is low-yeild they're looking for the cheapest way. Whether it be a routing like AMS-CDG-MIA, AMS-FCO-MIA, AMS-JFK-MIA they'll go the cheapest way which in my guess was on Arkefly and not KLM.

Quoting MillwallSean (Reply 30):
Florida is a charter destination from many European countries.

Once again, Orlando is, but not Miami. Where Miami sees its charters is mainly to Cuba. MIA (I could be wrong) has no charters to Europe. They do have LCC's (Arkefly and Corsair) but no charters.

Quoting panamair (Reply 33):
Many of you talk about the profitability of routes in black and white, as if their viability is etched in stone regardless of the surrounding environment. Truth is, a route may be viable in one year but not the next. The JV probably saw that MIA-Europe had too much capacity given the projected fuel and economic environment in 2012, and took the decision as a whole - looking at MIA-CDG, MIA-LHR, MIA-AMS, MIA-MXP, MIA-FCO. MIA-AMS was probably the weakest of all of these and hence got the axe. MIA-LHR could be weak as well, but LHR is of strategic importance so they will find ways to hang in there (reducing capacity from 764 to 763).

     

Quoting N62NA (Reply 34):
sn't the MD-11 a big, high density aircraft with KL?

Yes but they are being replaced. I think this was the last route to be operated with it? (I could be wrong here)

Quoting A388 (Reply 38):
It's hysterical how you keep insisting on a market that supposedly is there while it's not.

The market is there. It's just on other carriers and mostly low yeild.

Quoting ATL (Reply 39):
That's very surprising. Although it's a safe assumption to say that DL wanted some help on their MIA-LHR route, and thus KLM pulled out of MIA (along with poor loads). They'll be back though, the 787 will be the ideal aircraft for the route, especially by the time they go onl

Yep. Once the economy gets better we should see them come back.

Quoting IrishAyes (Reply 40):
Unsure about all the talk with TK, and additionally, the market will become even more interesting whenever EK decides to join the Miami crew.

TK said they were interested in MIA a while ago. When they free up some A330's MIA should be next.
http://www.flightglobal.com/blogs/th...ish-eyes-more-us-destinations.html
 
MAH4546
Posts: 26510
Joined: Wed Jan 24, 2001 1:44 pm

RE: KLM Axes Miami

Tue Dec 20, 2011 10:32 pm

Quoting A388 (Reply 38):
It's hysterical how you keep insisting on a market that supposedly is there while it's not.

Prove it, then. Show me proof that the maket isn't large. MIAAMS is one of the 75 busiest U.S.-EU city pairs. How, then, is a market approaching 100 PDEW (and that's using 2010 figures, with no non-stop) not popular?

Quoting panamair (Reply 33):
Many of you talk about the profitability of routes in black and white, as if their viability is etched in stone regardless of the surrounding environment. Truth is, a route may be viable in one year but not the next. The JV probably saw that MIA-Europe had too much capacity given the projected fuel and economic environment in 2012, and took the decision as a whole - looking at MIA-CDG, MIA-LHR, MIA-AMS, MIA-MXP, MIA-FCO. MIA-AMS was probably the weakest of all of these and hence got the axe. MIA-LHR could be weak as well, but LHR is of strategic importance so they will find ways to hang in there (reducing capacity from 764 to 763).

Very true. This isn't as black and white as people make it out to be, and I absolutely believe that MIALHR had something to do with this. People who make arguments that te airlines don't plan capacity together or that MIAAMS isn't a large market don't know what they are talking about. Wish the alliance would have focused on MIAAMS instead of MIALHR, though, because the former is more likely to see long-term success.
a.
 
LAXdude1023
Posts: 6278
Joined: Thu Sep 07, 2006 3:16 pm

RE: KLM Axes Miami

Tue Dec 20, 2011 10:35 pm

Quoting mah4546 (Reply 45):
Very true. This isn't as black and white as people make it out to be, and I absolutely believe that MIALHR had something to do with this. People who make arguments that te airlines don't plan capacity together or that MIAAMS isn't a large market don't know what they are talking about. Wish the alliance would have focused on MIAAMS instead of MIALHR, though, because the former is more likely to see long-term success.

I personally think MIA just got hit with too much capacity all the way around. Given that MIA-AMS is low yielding, if one were to fall, thats the best canidate.
FOR THE LOVE OF GOD BRING BACK THE PAYWALL!!!!
 
peanuts
Posts: 980
Joined: Thu Dec 24, 2009 1:17 am

RE: KLM Axes Miami

Tue Dec 20, 2011 10:38 pm

Quoting mah4546 (Reply 45):
because the former is more likely to see long-term success.

I think SkyTeam and the TA JV is holding out for something....it's not entirely clear yet.
Once we know what VS is going to do with their future things may crystallize a bit more.

This is definitely a development in progress. It's not black and white indeed.

[Edited 2011-12-20 14:40:15]
 
BlueBus
Posts: 62
Joined: Mon Feb 21, 2011 3:33 am

RE: KLM Axes Miami

Tue Dec 20, 2011 11:20 pm

Anyone know how LH"s A380 FRA-MIA route is doing?
 
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Semaex
Posts: 803
Joined: Mon Nov 23, 2009 4:17 pm

RE: KLM Axes Miami

Tue Dec 20, 2011 11:21 pm

I'm surprised nobody has screamed out !Lufthansa! yet.

What's the big difference in KL running AMS-MIA (which supposingly does not work) and LH running FRA-MIA (A380 since last summer) on top of FRA-MCO (747 in winter)? Both Daily!

I can only see LH management facepalming themselves giggling at this move. Even more Netherlands-pax transiting FRA to the US then there already are.



On a sidenote, my deepest respect to KLM for pulling off the "10.000m high party". As a young person who loves the music I think they made a good decision which repays in an unmatched sympathy and and reputation for the airline.
// You know you're an aviation enthusiast if you look at your neighbour's cars and think about fleet commonality.

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