SASMD82
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Biggest Engine Manufacturer?

Sun Dec 25, 2011 5:16 am

Hi!

As I just read the news about Thai selecting the RR1000 for their B787s and that there will be a significant chance that KL/AF will select the RR1000 over the GEnx for their B787s, I was wondering which engine manufacturer is currently the biggest (in terms of the number of engines).

I think it is General Electric (including the CFM engines) but I am not sure? What if we exclude these CFM's? Will CFM then be the biggest? Does anyone have some figures?

Will this be the list?
1) CFM (CFM56)
2) RR (-500, -600, -700, -800, -1000, TXWB, Tay)
3) GE (CF6-80, CF34, CF6-90)
4) PW (PW4000)
5) EA (V2500)
6) GP (GP7270)

Merry X-mas to you all!!!
 
imiakhtar
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RE: Biggest Engine Manufacturer?

Sun Dec 25, 2011 6:14 am

1) CFM
2) GE (don't forget the CF6-50 and GenX)
3) RR
4) IAE
5) PW
6) GP

Also bear in mind the PW GTF is coming online soon, and RR recently sold it's stake in IAE with PW becoming the largest shareholder (about 70%), in which case PW would be no.3.

Volumes of engines however does not translate into higher margins. Despite the fact that IAE was shifting 400 V2500s a year, it only accounted for 12% of revenue for RR commercial engines as compared to 65% for the trent family.
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RE: Biggest Engine Manufacturer?

Sun Dec 25, 2011 3:43 pm

GE are #1 any way you want to cut it.

Quite apart from their 50% stake in CFM, they have the biggest market share on (deep breath), the A300, DC-10, MD-11, 747, 767 and 777. That takes some beating.

By the way, you are a bit confused here:

Quoting SASMD82 (Thread starter):
5) EA (V2500)
6) GP (GP7270)

EA have nothing to do with the V2500.

GP is EA!
 
tdscanuck
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RE: Biggest Engine Manufacturer?

Sun Dec 25, 2011 6:29 pm

Quoting SASMD82 (Thread starter):
I was wondering which engine manufacturer is currently the biggest (in terms of the number of engines).

If we're counting all engines (not just turbofans) it's almost certainly PWC thanks to the PT-6 and its bazillion derivatives.

Tom.
 
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lightsaber
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RE: Biggest Engine Manufacturer?

Sun Dec 25, 2011 9:46 pm

Quoting PM (Reply 2):

GE are #1 any way you want to cut it.

{Checkmark}

50% of CFM (CFM-56/Leap-X)
50% (ish) of EA and the GP7200 (A380 only).
GE-90 (Its a rare event for a non-GE 777 sales today.)
GEnX (787 and 748)
CF6 (fading into the sunset, but the revenue will be great for over another decade)
CF-34 (E-jets, CRJ, and maybe one day (in service) the ARJ21. Successor, the Tech-X is under development.
Large military helicopter engines (I forget the line names, but GE dominates that market)
LM6000 and other aeroderivative ground power engines.
The industrial ("frame") power generating turbines.

All of the above are still selling (even if, as already noted, the CF6 is fading into the sunset for new sales).

RR, by dollars, is #2 on aircraft engine sales tanks to the Trent family.

Pratt had almost faded into the sunset. They're barely selling a few PW4170As (ugh... I'm not going into why the PW4175 didn't happen... it just pains me a nacelle material change wasn't allowed for the thrust growth.)
However, the GTF, in the multitude of forms, will be their re-entry to the market. I find it amazing that a company whom had retreated to 'wide-body' profits has a toe hold coming back on narrowbodies.

Of course, Pratt also has the extensive PWC portfolio of business jet engines and PT-6.

Quoting tdscanuck (Reply 3):
If we're counting all engines (not just turbofans) it's almost certainly PWC thanks to the PT-6 and its bazillion derivatives.

Engines in the field or engines shipped in 2011? The PT-6 is not shipping in its prior volumes during the last 12 months.

Lightsaber
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SASMD82
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RE: Biggest Engine Manufacturer?

Mon Dec 26, 2011 12:50 pm

Quoting imiakhtar (Reply 1):
don't forget the CF6-50

When was the last one built? 1989 or so?   How many birds that use these engines are still flying around? They are used for the A300, DC-10, B747-200 and -300.

Quoting PM (Reply 2):
Quite apart from their 50% stake in CFM, they have the biggest market share on (deep breath), the A300, DC-10, MD-11, 747, 767 and 777. That takes some beating

The Trents are impressive too: A330, A340-500/600, A350, A380, B777, B787. We can also add the RR Tay, Spey and Olympus. What great names!

Quoting PM (Reply 2):
EA have nothing to do with the V2500.

GP is EA!

Whoops, you are right. EA = IAE and GP = EA.  
 
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kc135topboom
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RE: Biggest Engine Manufacturer?

Mon Dec 26, 2011 2:02 pm

Quoting PM (Reply 2):
Quite apart from their 50% stake in CFM, they have the biggest market share on (deep breath), the A300, DC-10, MD-11, 747, 767 and 777.

Don't forget the A-310, A-330, and A-340

Quoting SASMD82 (Reply 5):
Quoting imiakhtar (Reply 1):
don't forget the CF6-50

When was the last one built? 1989 or so?

No, it was built until about 1998, or so, mostly for the A-310-300. The CF-6-50 powers the USAF KC-10A and E-4B. The VC-25A has CF-6-80C2B1 as does reengined C-5M.
 
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RE: Biggest Engine Manufacturer?

Mon Dec 26, 2011 2:25 pm

Quoting SASMD82 (Reply 5):
Whoops, you are right. EA = IAE and GP = EA.

Half right!   But EA certainly does NOT = IAE! EA is 50/50 GE and PW. GE is 50% of CFM and so is as far from IAE as can be. PW owns 50% of EA and 30%+ of IAE (shortly to be 60%+).

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 6):
Don't forget the A-310, A-330, and A-340

I was including the A310s within the A300 programme as they shared a single run of MSNs. And my post was about airframes where GE are #1. That certainly rules out the A330 where they have around 26% of deliveries and a smaller share of sales. As for the A340, I included that within the CFM total. If you want to separate it, CFM currently have 20% of combined A330/A340 deliveries and, obviously, an ever-declining share of the total sales. Give GE half of the CFM/A340 sales, add in the CF6/A330 and GE have 28% of A330/A340 deliveries compared to 46% for RR.
 
tdscanuck
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RE: Biggest Engine Manufacturer?

Mon Dec 26, 2011 4:09 pm

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 4):
Quoting tdscanuck (Reply 3):
If we're counting all engines (not just turbofans) it's almost certainly PWC thanks to the PT-6 and its bazillion derivatives.

Engines in the field or engines shipped in 2011? The PT-6 is not shipping in its prior volumes during the last 12 months.

In the field...support is both a huge business burden and a huge revenue stream so, since we didn't really pin down a definition for "biggest engine manufacturer" it's kind of open to interpretation but install base should figure in there somehow.

Tom.
 
Northwest727
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RE: Biggest Engine Manufacturer?

Mon Dec 26, 2011 6:36 pm

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 4):
Pratt had almost faded into the sunset. They're barely selling a few PW4170As (ugh... I'm not going into why the PW4175 didn't happen... it just pains me a nacelle material change wasn't allowed for the thrust growth.) However, the GTF, in the multitude of forms, will be their re-entry to the market. I find it amazing that a company whom had retreated to 'wide-body' profits has a toe hold coming back on narrowbodies.

I find it amazing that in the civil field, P&W was once the General Electric in its heyday...what successful airliners did not have P&W engines powering them? Not sure what P&W did in the 1980s-2000s, but it seems that their civilian division almost slid into oblivion, their PWC division seemed to have kept the company afloat.

Hope the PW6000 and PW1000G brings them back into a major player again.
 
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RE: Biggest Engine Manufacturer?

Mon Dec 26, 2011 9:18 pm

Quoting SASMD82 (Reply 5):
Quoting imiakhtar (Reply 1):
don't forget the CF6-50

When was the last one built? 1989 or so? How many birds that use these engines are still flying around? They are used for the A300, DC-10, B747-200 and -300.

17 747-100SRs (short range) for NH were also built with the CF6-45, a derated CF6-50.
 
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lightsaber
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RE: Biggest Engine Manufacturer?

Mon Dec 26, 2011 9:30 pm

Quoting Northwest727 (Reply 9):

Pratt became arrogant. Instead of developing the product that made it to the test stand (jt-10d), Pratt told customers they wanted the pw2000 and jt9d-7r4. GE then developed the CF34, cf6, and too their F101 core and found a partner to put a commercial low spool onto an engine we call the cfm-56. Pratt was caught napping one too many times. With the botched pw4098... That was too much.

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Daysleeper
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RE: Biggest Engine Manufacturer?

Mon Dec 26, 2011 9:54 pm

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 11):
Pratt was caught napping one too many times. With the botched pw4098... That was too much.

I’ve just watched a documentary following the making of the 777 and as United selected the PW4098 it features quite heavily in it. The interviews after a very public jet surge are especially interesting; the PW “team leader” interviewed blamed the surge on the engines condition. Stating it wasn’t factory fresh and had been shut down inflight several times in the course of prior testing. I didn’t know shutting an engine down in flight caused so much damage, I’m assuming this is down to the engine wind-milling?

They also said they had re-designed several other key components, but only went into detail about replacing the turbine casing due to it flexing in flight. I’m assuming these are the botched repairs your referring too?
 
fruitbat
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RE: Biggest Engine Manufacturer?

Mon Dec 26, 2011 10:10 pm

Quoting PM (Reply 2):
GE are #1 any way you want to cut it.

Heathen! Unbeliever!  

Try.....% total widebody market share by engine manufacturer since 1998 for a/c where there is a choice of engines.......this conveniently eliminates the pesky 777-300ER........but, to be fair, also the A350XWB........

 
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tdscanuck
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RE: Biggest Engine Manufacturer?

Tue Dec 27, 2011 1:09 am

Quoting Daysleeper (Reply 12):
I didn’t know shutting an engine down in flight caused so much damage, I’m assuming this is down to the engine wind-milling?

Windmilling doesn't do much as long as the gearbox is turning over enough to keep oil moving around (it doesn't need full pressure, just enough to get oil to the bearings).

The major impact of inflight shutdowns is the rapid thermal shock...the engine goes from flight idle to nil with no warning and gets a ~400 mph wind blowing through it. It's a much more severe cooling situation than normal on-ground shutdown. V1 cuts are even worse.

Tom.
 
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RE: Biggest Engine Manufacturer?

Tue Dec 27, 2011 1:21 am

Quoting tdscanuck (Reply 14):
The major impact of inflight shutdowns is the rapid thermal shock...the engine goes from flight idle to nil with no warning and gets a ~400 mph wind blowing through it. It's a much more severe cooling situation than normal on-ground shutdown. V1 cuts are even worse

I would have never thought of that, but now that you have pointed it out it make alot of sense and its easy to imagine it causing alot of weardamage to the engine.

Thankyou.
 
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RE: Biggest Engine Manufacturer?

Tue Dec 27, 2011 3:15 am

Quoting fruitbat (Reply 13):
Heathen! Unbeliever!

Nah. It just gives us a nice big target to aim at!
  

Quoting fruitbat (Reply 13):
Try.....% total widebody market share by engine manufacturer since 1998 for a/c where there is a choice of engines...

Well, we can play with the statistics any way we want.

So I will!

Engine sales on widebodies over the past five years (2006-2010) gives RR a rather impressive 52% of the market to 38% for GE. Alas, 2011 will pull GE up quite a bit (courtesy of 200 777 sales) but RR will still be ahead.

Deliveries over the same period give GE 55% and RR 38%. One wonders how things will look once the A350 is rolling off the assembly lines.
 
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RE: Biggest Engine Manufacturer?

Tue Dec 27, 2011 3:34 am

Quoting fruitbat (Reply 13):
Heathen! Unbeliever!

Try.....% total widebody market share by engine manufacturer since 1998 for a/c where there is a choice of engines.......this conveniently eliminates the pesky 777-300ER........but, to be fair, also the A350XWB........


You don't have to believe but by 'Pesky 777-300ER' you are acknowledgeing the most successful dominant airframe out there.

Forced into GE EK SQ and CX are believers for sure judging by the "screeds" of 77Ws they have ordered........   
 
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RE: Biggest Engine Manufacturer?

Tue Dec 27, 2011 4:02 am

Quoting Boeing767-300 (Reply 17):
You don't have to believe but by 'Pesky 777-300ER' you are acknowledgeing the most successful dominant airframe out there.

To be fair, I think his "pesky" epithet was intended as a reluctant compliment to what everyone knows is a hugely successful and popular airframe/engine combination.

You can respect something without particularly liking it. Me, I go out of my way to avoid the 77W. There are much nicer ways to fly. But I don't question its appeal to profitable airlines.
 
cf6ppe
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RE: Biggest Engine Manufacturer?

Tue Dec 27, 2011 4:50 am

I have been told that GE recently (possibly week of 12/12/11) had a Fortieth Anniversary Celebration for the CF6 Family of Engines.

I don't have any other details re: this event and posted in hopes that some others of could have additional information, links, etc. ....
 
SASMD82
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RE: Biggest Engine Manufacturer?

Tue Dec 27, 2011 6:22 am

Quoting PM (Reply 18):
But I don't question its appeal to profitable airlines.

This is not to start the old 777 vs A340 story but Lufthansa and Swiss are quite profitable and do not have any 77W. They do have A340s though.

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 6):
No, it was built until about 1998, or so, mostly for the A-310-300.

What? I have always thought that the A313 was equipped with CF6-80 engines. The -50s are fuel guzzlers compared to the CF6-80. Sales must have been much higher if the A310-300 was suited with the latter ones.....
 
fruitbat
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RE: Biggest Engine Manufacturer?

Tue Dec 27, 2011 2:25 pm

Quoting PM (Reply 18):
To be fair, I think his "pesky" epithet was intended as a reluctant compliment to what everyone knows is a hugely successful and popular airframe/engine combination.

Thank you - you know where I'm coming from  

There is an enormous amount of respect for the 777-300ER / GE90 within the industry, one measure of this is shown by the amount of debate about what the A350-1000 needs to be in order to beat an airframe that is one generation (if not two) older than it........
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DfwRevolution
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RE: Biggest Engine Manufacturer?

Tue Dec 27, 2011 4:50 pm

Quoting tdscanuck (Reply 14):
The major impact of inflight shutdowns is the rapid thermal shock...the engine goes from flight idle to nil with no warning and gets a ~400 mph wind blowing through it. It's a much more severe cooling situation than normal on-ground shutdown. V1 cuts are even worse.
Quoting Daysleeper (Reply 15):
I would have never thought of that, but now that you have pointed it out it make alot of sense and its easy to imagine it causing alot of weardamage to the engine.

Thermal deformation was a contributing factor to the Pinnacle CRJ crash a few years ago. The turbines literally locked-up and would not rotate, preventing re-start of the engines.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pinnacle_Airlines_Flight_3701

Quoting tdscanuck (Reply 8):
In the field...support is both a huge business burden and a huge revenue stream so, since we didn't really pin down a definition for "biggest engine manufacturer" it's kind of open to interpretation but install base should figure in there somehow.

I would also include installed power (or thrust) as a relevant measuring stick. This is frequently used in the industrial turbo machinery world. I expect GE would again come out tops in this category.
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tdscanuck
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RE: Biggest Engine Manufacturer?

Wed Dec 28, 2011 5:06 pm

Quoting dfwrevolution (Reply 22):
Thermal deformation was a contributing factor to the Pinnacle CRJ crash a few years ago. The turbines literally locked-up and would not rotate, preventing re-start of the engines.

True. That was an absolute worst possible case that's way outside any normal operating envelope...those engines went from full power to zero at maximum altitude (coldest air).

Thanks to that accident you now have to do core lock testing on new designs. It's a fun test.

Tom.

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