PVDCMHOZ
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How Big Was PanAm?

Mon Jan 09, 2012 4:30 pm

After reviewing several PA schedules from departedflights.com, it occurred to me that Pan Am was much smaller of an airline than I thought. PA seemed to have relatively few departures from JFK (I think the most they had was 76 or 77 a day according to departedflights.com). My question is how many system departures did PA have in the 80's and at their peak? Does anyone know? Their flight schedules seemed to be very uncompetitive with the likes of AA and UA.

I was very surprised by how small (using the metric of daily hub departures) they actually were.
 
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SEPilot
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RE: How Big Was PanAm?

Mon Jan 09, 2012 4:39 pm

Don't forget that PA was strictly international, and at the time AA/UA were strictly domestic. During the heyday of PA international travel was much less than it is today, even as a proportion of overall traffic. PA really peaked around 1969, just after Juan Trippe retired. It was in a constant decline from then until it finally collapsed. So be sure that when you compare frequencies it is for the period before 1970; anything else is unfair. And remember that at that time the only international competition was TWA and the foreign carriers. I suspect PA had a significant share of the international travel at that time.
The problem with making things foolproof is that fools are so doggone ingenious...Dan Keebler
 
citationjet
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RE: How Big Was PanAm?

Mon Jan 09, 2012 4:55 pm

It was probably not as big as most people would think. It flew to quite a few exotic places, but not with much frequency. Here is a link to PanAm's fleet history.
http://www.aeromoe.com/fleets/pa.html

A good site for PanAm history:
http://www.panamair.org/contact/contact.htm
Boeing Flown: 701,702,703;717;720;721,722;731,732,733,734,735,73G,738,739;741,742,743,744,747SP;752,753;762,763;772,773,788.
 
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SEPilot
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RE: How Big Was PanAm?

Mon Jan 09, 2012 5:02 pm

Regarding my previous post, I was thinking primarily of TATL traffic. PA did have domestic competition, primarily Northwest Orient, in the Pacific and other competition in Latin America, but it was bigger, I believe, than any of its rivals at that time.
The problem with making things foolproof is that fools are so doggone ingenious...Dan Keebler
 
timz
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RE: How Big Was PanAm?

Mon Jan 09, 2012 5:13 pm

In the 1950s-1960s Pan Am was around #5 or #6 in passenger-miles, behind the Big Four.
 
ikramerica
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RE: How Big Was PanAm?

Mon Jan 09, 2012 5:20 pm

How many 747s did they have at one time. They had 44 -100s over time, and 7 pax -200s and 11 SPs, but how many all at one time?
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
 
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jfklganyc
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RE: How Big Was PanAm?

Mon Jan 09, 2012 5:30 pm

And you described the reason they went out of business.

In the 80s, while everyone else was building huge mid-continent hubs, Pan Am stuck to what it always did.

Even today, you can not compare AA's or DL's JFK gateway hub with ORD, DFW, SLC, DTW, MSP, or ATL.

The size and scope at huge airports with prime connecting locations vs the huge O and D market in NYC with poor connecting location.

NYC can support one or two flights a day on most airlines to a place like PHX. Yet, from a mid continent hub you can fill 10 flights a day to PHX filled with connectors and a smaller O and D base.

Pan Am, and to some extent TWA, missed that
 
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RE: How Big Was PanAm?

Mon Jan 09, 2012 5:31 pm

Quoting ikramerica (Reply 5):
How many 747s did they have at one time. They had 44 -100s over time, and 7 pax -200s and 11 SPs, but how many all at one time?

Other than the the one they lost at Tenerife, I don't think they parted with any during the 70's (which is when almost all, if not all, were acquired.) When they sold the Pacific routes to UA a lot of them went with the sale, so the peak would have been before that.
The problem with making things foolproof is that fools are so doggone ingenious...Dan Keebler
 
doulasc
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RE: How Big Was PanAm?

Mon Jan 09, 2012 5:32 pm

Pan Am was in all 4 corners of the globe until their Pacific division was sold to United in 1986,Then in 1991 they sold their Atlantic division to Delta,then all they had left were a few domestic routes and latin America. This great empire ceased to exist after December 4 1991.
 
citationjet
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RE: How Big Was PanAm?

Mon Jan 09, 2012 5:33 pm

Quoting ikramerica (Reply 5):
How many 747s did they have at one time. They had 44 -100s over time, and 7 pax -200s and 11 SPs, but how many all at one time?

Yoiu can determine this from the fleet data link found in Reply #2. For each 747, there is a date for added and removed from PanAm's fleet.
Boeing Flown: 701,702,703;717;720;721,722;731,732,733,734,735,73G,738,739;741,742,743,744,747SP;752,753;762,763;772,773,788.
 
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RE: How Big Was PanAm?

Mon Jan 09, 2012 5:33 pm

Quoting SEPilot (Reply 1):
Don't forget that PA was strictly international, and at the time AA/UA were strictly domestic.

Not totally true. UA served YVR and YYZ. I think AA served YYZ also. PA had rights to Alaska and Hawaii. They couldn't carry domestic traffic in the CONUS, but did SEA/JFK-FAI and SEA/SFO/PDX/LAX-Hawaii. They served ITO for a very short time also.
 
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SEPilot
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RE: How Big Was PanAm?

Mon Jan 09, 2012 5:46 pm

Quoting BoeingGuy (Reply 10):
Not totally true. UA served YVR and YYZ. I think AA served YYZ also. PA had rights to Alaska and Hawaii. They couldn't carry domestic traffic in the CONUS, but did SEA/JFK-FAI and SEA/SFO/PDX/LAX-Hawaii. They served ITO for a very short time also.

Thanks for the info; I did not realize all of that. I did realize that PA served Alaska and Hawaii, but did not realize that domestic airlines served Canada.
The problem with making things foolproof is that fools are so doggone ingenious...Dan Keebler
 
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RE: How Big Was PanAm?

Mon Jan 09, 2012 6:42 pm

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 12):
I find it offensive to say YYZ is "international". An "international" is one that crosses an Ocean or the Amazon.

Offensive or not, SEA-YVR or ORD-YYZ is an international flight. I don't think of taking a weekend trip to Vancouver to be international either, but it is what it is.

UA did SEA-YVR and ORD-YYZ since the beginning of time. Hughes Airways did Canadian routes. Western and Eastern did Mexico, etc. NW did do the Orient. But yeah, PA and TW were the biggest international carriers.
 
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RE: How Big Was PanAm?

Mon Jan 09, 2012 6:48 pm

Quoting BoeingGuy (Reply 13):
UA did SEA-YVR and ORD-YYZ since the beginning of time. Hughes Airways did Canadian routes. Western and Eastern did Mexico, etc. NW did do the Orient. But yeah, PA and TW were the biggest international carriers.

BIG Difference it what Northwest Orient did, flying over the pacific and flying to Mariachi Land or Canada.
 
trnswrld
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RE: How Big Was PanAm?

Mon Jan 09, 2012 6:51 pm

Just out of curiosity what were the size comparisons between PA and TW? such as fleets, flights, passengers, destinations. I know both airlines existed for a long time, but just generally speaking overall. I never really knew much about PA as I just never really saw them at all in Chicago growing up.
 
doulasc
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RE: How Big Was PanAm?

Mon Jan 09, 2012 6:57 pm

Yes Pan Am was around the world,TWA was to europe and middle east,Northwest Orient had international to Asia.Braniff did South America. Eastern,American had flights to Canada and Mexico and the Carribean. Delta had a few canadian cities plus a route from New Orleans to Jamaica and Caracas they inherited from Chicago and Southern airlines in 1953. Also National started international from Miami in 1970 to London.
 
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RE: How Big Was PanAm?

Mon Jan 09, 2012 7:00 pm

Quoting doulasc (Reply 16):
Also National started international from Miami in 1970 to London.

I did not realize that; I thought the Atlantic was pretty much PA and TWA until deregulation. Thanks for the info.
The problem with making things foolproof is that fools are so doggone ingenious...Dan Keebler
 
jfk777
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RE: How Big Was PanAm?

Mon Jan 09, 2012 8:28 pm

Quoting BigGSFO (Reply 18):
Say what? The definition of "international" is "involving more than one country." Canada has never been domestic and before open skies, operated under a very strict bilateral with the US. Sorry that the actual definition of international offends you. "Transoceanic" refers to crossing an ocean.

Just because a 737 take off from ORD to YYZ doesn't make it intenational, yeah Canada is another country. A 777 from JFK to LHR, HKG, or GRU is my idea of an international flight. What LAX and JFK do is my idea of "international", what Miami does is not the same, sure they handle tons of "international" flights but they are A320's and 737 mostly.
 
AADC10
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RE: How Big Was PanAm?

Mon Jan 09, 2012 9:07 pm

Quoting PVDCMHOZ (Thread starter):
it occurred to me that Pan Am was much smaller of an airline than I thought.

You have to keep it in perspective of the size of the entire commercial aviation industry. The industry is now several times larger than it was 30 years ago. International travel also dropped off sharply in the mid-80s because of the bombings.
 
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RE: How Big Was PanAm?

Tue Jan 10, 2012 12:19 am

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 17):
What LAX and JFK do is my idea of "international", what Miami does is not the same, sure they handle tons of "international" flights but they are A320's and 737 mostly.

Perhaps what you really mean to say is "intercontinental" or "long haul?"
A flight from Amsterdam to London or Frankfurt is international also, but you barely get airborne.
 
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RE: How Big Was PanAm?

Tue Jan 10, 2012 12:39 am

Quoting Lufthansa (Reply 19):
Perhaps what you really mean to say is "intercontinental" or "long haul?"
A flight from Amsterdam to London or Frankfurt is international also, but you barely get airborne.

A flight within the EU should be "domestic".
 
Viscount724
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RE: How Big Was PanAm?

Tue Jan 10, 2012 1:19 am

Quoting SEPilot (Reply 1):
So be sure that when you compare frequencies it is for the period before 1970; anything else is unfair.
Quoting SEPilot (Reply 7):
Quoting ikramerica (Reply 5):
How many 747s did they have at one time. They had 44 -100s over time, and 7 pax -200s and 11 SPs, but how many all at one time?

Other than the the one they lost at Tenerife, I don't think they parted with any during the 70's (which is when almost all, if not all, were acquired.)

You're overlooking the first 747 hull loss in September 1970, the PA 747-100 (N752PA), only 5 months old, blown up by terrorists after being hijacked soon after departure from AMS en route to JFK and flown to BEY and then CAI. Fortunately all passengers and crew were able to evacuate before the aircraft was blown up. That was part of the "Black September" hijackings that also resulted in the loss of a TWA 707, Swissair DC-8 and BOAC VC-10, all hijacked to an abandoned air base in the Jordanian desert before being blown up. An El Al 707 was also hijacked en route from AMS to JFK as part of that operation (it left AMS about the same time as the Pan Am 747) but onboard El Al security guards shot and killed one of the two hijackers and captured the other and the 707 made a safe emergency landing at LHR.

Quoting BoeingGuy (Reply 12):

UA did SEA-YVR and ORD-YYZ since the beginning of time.

Not correct unless yhou consider the late 1960s "the beginning of time". They only obtained ORD-YYZ rights then. They'd been serving SEA-YVR since the 1930s. Those were UA's only international routes until the 1980s.

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 20):
Quoting Lufthansa (Reply 19):
Perhaps what you really mean to say is "intercontinental" or "long haul?"
A flight from Amsterdam to London or Frankfurt is international also, but you barely get airborne.

A flight within the EU should be "domestic".

Still legally considered international. The EU is not a country. It's a "single market" for EU-based carriers but not domestic. Many bilaterals between other parts of the world and EU countries are stil separate agreements to/from each country with a wide variety of restrictions, many of which date back to before the EU existed.
 
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RE: How Big Was PanAm?

Tue Jan 10, 2012 4:34 am

Quoting SEPilot (Reply 7):
Other than the the one they lost at Tenerife,

how about lockerbie?


PA was involved in many accidents over the years, but just a couple on the 74. My first 747 experience was PA SFO-NRT in 1978. the return later that summer to LAX was via JL.

Even then, when PA was not in such horrible shape, the interior or the PA aircraft was worn OUT. Tbe seats were threatbear, some of the overhead bins were sealed shut because they were broken. Tne PA plane was awful. The service was good, the food was great and the staff was nice.

The only problem with the JAL flight was the seat pitch. My goodness, i nearly had to wrap my ankles around my neck...i think is was 31" pitch vs. PA 33-34" pitch.
Tired of airline bankruptcies....EA/PA/TW and finally DL.
 
DTWSXM
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RE: How Big Was PanAm?

Tue Jan 10, 2012 11:34 am

The definition of an Inernational Flight is clear according to the FAA. It does not include the crossing of any geographic structures.

Please refer to:
http://www.faa.gov/about/office_org/...g/filing/flight_plan_instructions/

For me, the simple definition is, if I am required to carry a passport, it's an International Flight.

Cheers,
Chris
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RE: How Big Was PanAm?

Tue Jan 10, 2012 11:50 am

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 17):

So because they dont fly over water, its not international? So please, do tell me what happens in Africa?? Whats that considered as? Any flight leaving one country and arriving in another country is a International flight. So flying to Canada is a International flight!
When is my next holiday?
 
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RE: How Big Was PanAm?

Tue Jan 10, 2012 11:52 am

Quoting jetdeltamsy (Reply 22):
how about lockerbie?

Lockerbie was after they had sold off the Pacific routes and the planes that went with it.

Pan Am had a whole rash of accidents with 707's in the 70's (mostly due to the Skygod complex), but after the FAA came down on them and they instituted a similar program to CRM (before CRM became popular) they never had another accident that was their flight crew's fault. The only ones after that were Tenerife and Lockerbie, neither of which were caused by PA's flight crew error.
The problem with making things foolproof is that fools are so doggone ingenious...Dan Keebler
 
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RE: How Big Was PanAm?

Tue Jan 10, 2012 12:10 pm

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 20):
A flight within the EU should be "domestic".

I wouldn't say that in the United Kingdom if I were you atm! It won't go down well at all.
Hell there is even debate if you are in the same country going from England to Scotland!,
but outside the UK... no they will not like EU flights being considered domestic.

I'm taking it you do know about the schengen zone?
 
JQflightie
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RE: How Big Was PanAm?

Tue Jan 10, 2012 12:36 pm

Quoting Lufthansa (Reply 26):
I'm taking it you do know about the schengen zone?

Or Quarantine........
When is my next holiday?
 
superjeff
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RE: How Big Was PanAm?

Tue Jan 10, 2012 2:03 pm

Quoting SEPilot (Reply 3):
Regarding my previous post, I was thinking primarily of TATL traffic. PA did have domestic competition, primarily Northwest Orient, in the Pacific and other competition in Latin America, but it was bigger, I believe, than any of its rivals at that time.

Actually, the competition was quite regulated. To Europe, Pan Am had mostly northern European routes (thus their "hub" in FRA, while TWA had southern European routes ("hubbing" in Paris at LeBourget and later Orly). In South America, Pan Am was the designated U.S. flag carrier to the East Coast (Brazil, Argentina, Uruguay), while Panagra (jointly owned with W.R. Grace until 1967) had the West Coast. In 1967, Braniff bought out both Pan Am and Grace in that operation and acquired the Panagra system, which was competitive with its own. Note that Panagra never had routes into the U.S., they never flew north of Panama.

Pan Am also maintained a smaill operation to the Caribbean through Miami and New York (SJU, MBJ, KIN, POS, etc.) and an oddball "local service" from New Orleans to Panama City via Merida, Guatamala, Costa Rica, Nicaragua, etc.)

As to the Orient, Northwest's routes were via Anchorage, while Pan Am's were through HNL. Pan Am had a much bigger route system in the Orient than did Northwest.
 
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RE: How Big Was PanAm?

Tue Jan 10, 2012 2:06 pm

Quoting jfklganyc (Reply 6):

Pan Am didn't have much choice. Up til deregulation, they tried multiple times for domestic authority, but never were awarded any. In the Transpacific route case, finally decided in 1969, they tried for ATL/DAL/HOU/STL - Hawaii, but that went to Braniff (which only operated ATL for a short time and never operated STL-HNL). They also lost out on interior U.S. to European routes (i.e., Braniff DFW-LGW, National MIA-LHR), all, IMHO, for politcal reasons.
 
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RE: How Big Was PanAm?

Tue Jan 10, 2012 2:14 pm

Quoting PVDCMHOZ (Thread starter):
I was very surprised by how small (using the metric of daily hub departures) they actually were.

Eastern was a bigger loss than Pan Am, Eastern was huge (largest US airline in the early-mid '80s). Eastern's Atlanta hub probably carried more people in the mid '80s than PA's entire network. Eastern had hubs in BOS, LGA, JFK, EWR, PHL,. DCA, CLT, ATL, MCI and MIA. Eastern had the Shuttle, Pan Am bought their's from New York Air when Eastern was brought into Texas Air Corp, plus their Caribbean and Latin American network.

I believe Eastern carried more passengers, had more flights, a larger fleet, and more employees than Pan Am. I flew on both, while Pan Am has the pioneer reputation Eastern was the main airline for those of us who grew up in the Northeast.
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SEPilot
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RE: How Big Was PanAm?

Tue Jan 10, 2012 2:30 pm

Quoting superjeff (Reply 28):
Actually, the competition was quite regulated.

Which was Juan Trippe's idea. But he was never happy with competition; he wanted the whole pie for himself. He tolerated it when forced to, but he used his political clout wherever he could to stifle it. That is why PA could not long survive his departure; when he left so did his friends, but his enemies (which were many) remained with long memories. This was the reason PA could not acquire domestic routes prior to deregulation, which led to the disastrous National merger.
The problem with making things foolproof is that fools are so doggone ingenious...Dan Keebler
 
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RE: How Big Was PanAm?

Tue Jan 10, 2012 2:43 pm

Quoting Lufthansa (Reply 26):
I wouldn't say that in the United Kingdom if I were you atm! It won't go down well at all.Hell there is even debate if you are in the same country going from England to Scotland!, but outside the UK... no they will not like EU flights being considered domestic.

Absolutely. Europe is very different to the United States when it comes to this. The continent, EU or not, is divided and separated in many many ways whether that be infrastructure, political, socially and culturally. Certainly from most Brit's perspective even France is 'abroad/overseas'.
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chilledflyer
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RE: How Big Was PanAm?

Tue Jan 10, 2012 3:31 pm

Am quite amazed by some responses on here.

Quite simply, a flight with a final destination within a country from which it took off is deemed as "domestic" and a flight with a final destination other than the country from which it took off is deemed as "international". There is no reason to dispute this given it is a matter of fact.
Justice delayed, Justice denied
 
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RE: How Big Was PanAm?

Tue Jan 10, 2012 4:38 pm

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 13):
BIG Difference it what Northwest Orient did, flying over the pacific and flying to Mariachi Land or Canada.
Quoting jfk777 (Reply 17):
Just because a 737 take off from ORD to YYZ doesn't make it intenational, yeah Canada is another country. A 777 from JFK to LHR, HKG, or GRU is my idea of an international flight. What LAX and JFK do is my idea of "international", what Miami does is not the same, sure they handle tons of "international" flights but they are A320's and 737 mostly.
Quoting Lufthansa (Reply 19):
Perhaps what you really mean to say is "intercontinental" or "long haul?"
A flight from Amsterdam to London or Frankfurt is international also, but you barely get airborne.
Quoting jfk777 (Reply 20):
A flight within the EU should be "domestic".

Wow, Mexican embassy on line 1.

Firstly, I understand what you are desperately and clumsily trying to articulate. International flights and "intercontinental", "overseas" or "long-haul" flights do have greater equipment and infrastructure requirements. However, you have to recognize that international flights, even ones you would consider "domestic" do contribute greatly to an airline's network, and are often more profitable, as the fuel and A/C required to get people there are less resource intensive. You can't just write them off entirely, because you do not like the destination or don't think it's far enough away.
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milesrich
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RE: How Big Was PanAm?

Tue Jan 10, 2012 6:26 pm

Quoting ikramerica (Reply 5):
How many 747s did they have at one time. They had 44 -100s over time, and 7 pax -200s and 11 SPs, but how many all at one time?

They ordered and received 25 747-121's which later proved to be too many to most industry experts. When the 747 was announced, it was thought it would drastically reduce fares and therefore, expand the market. That didn't happen until much later, and inflation took care of the cheaper fares. In real dollars, the fares came down, but in nominal dollars, they did not.

Quoting BoeingGuy (Reply 10):
Quoting SEPilot (Reply 1):
Don't forget that PA was strictly international, and at the time AA/UA were strictly domestic.

Not totally true. UA served YVR and YYZ. I think AA served YYZ also. PA had rights to Alaska and Hawaii. They couldn't carry domestic traffic in the CONUS, but did SEA/JFK-FAI and SEA/SFO/PDX/LAX-Hawaii. They served ITO for a very short time also.

Actually, Pan Am also served Ketchikan via Annette Island, and I believe Juneau at one time. But remember, when those routes to Alaska and Hawaii were awarded, those were NOT STATES, but US Territories, somewhat like Guam, and Puerto Rico, and the routes, were not really considered domestic in nature, since you had to fly over the ocean or Canada to get to them.

Quoting SEPilot (Reply 11):
Quoting BoeingGuy (Reply 10):
Not totally true. UA served YVR and YYZ. I think AA served YYZ also. PA had rights to Alaska and Hawaii. They couldn't carry domestic traffic in the CONUS, but did SEA/JFK-FAI and SEA/SFO/PDX/LAX-Hawaii. They served ITO for a very short time also.

Thanks for the info; I did not realize all of that. I did realize that PA served Alaska and Hawaii, but did not realize that domestic airlines served Canada.
Quoting BoeingGuy (Reply 12):
Offensive or not, SEA-YVR or ORD-YYZ is an international flight. I don't think of taking a weekend trip to Vancouver to be international either, but it is what it is.

UA did SEA-YVR and ORD-YYZ since the beginning of time. Hughes Airways did Canadian routes. Western and Eastern did Mexico, etc. NW did do the Orient. But yeah, PA and TW were the biggest international carriers.

While United did serve YVR "since the beginning of time," they did not start service to Toronto until the mid 1960's. UA never operated props to YYZ, but YVR saw DC-3's, Convairs, DC-6's and DC-7's before the jets.

Canada routes also did NOT require use of International Terminals with customs in the United States. US Customs was cleared at the Canadian departure point. Eastern and Northeast served Montreal. American and later United served Toronto. Northwest served Winnipeg, and at one time, Edmonton. Western served Calgary. Pan Am never had routes to Canada.

In 1958, the US had 48 states, and Pan Am was not allowed to fly passengers within them or between them. They were not stripped of their Hawaiian routes when Hawaii became a state, but within ten years, they had lots more competition on routes to Hawaii than just UA from SFO and LAX and NW from PDX and SEA. As far as Alaska routes, they were stripped of every route except the one to FAI that I don't think any other airline really wanted, that wasn't allowed to add the route in competition with Pan Am. FAI was not a big time Alaskan destination.
 
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RE: How Big Was PanAm?

Tue Jan 10, 2012 6:38 pm

Pan Am has a lengthy list of incidents with both the 747s and 707s.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pan_Ame...ld_Airways#Accidents_and_incidents

It's amazing they were able to stay afloat all those difficult years.

Too bad Canada saw limited Pan Am service

[Edited 2012-01-10 10:45:48]
"What good are wings without the courage to fly?" - Atticus
 
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auroralives
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RE: How Big Was PanAm?

Tue Jan 10, 2012 7:11 pm

Quoting chilledflyer (Reply 33):
Quite simply, a flight with a final destination within a country from which it took off is deemed as "domestic" and a flight with a final destination other than the country from which it took off is deemed as "international". There is no reason to dispute this given it is a matter of fact.

Most Canadian airports solve this issue quite neatly by having 3 traffic types (Domestic, Transborder, International). The following link is to YYZs traffic report, and shows the typical breakdown between those categories.

http://torontopearson.com/uploadedFiles/Passengar-dec2011.pdf
 
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knope2001
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RE: How Big Was PanAm?

Tue Jan 10, 2012 8:14 pm

For a snapshot of the comparative size of Pan Am, here are passenger figures for the largest US airlines in 1980, rounded to the nearest thousand.

1. 39,053,000 Eastern
2. 38,598,000 Delta
3. 33,202,000 United
4. 25,729,000 American
5. 20,128,000 TWA
6. 17,413,000 Republic (includes Hughes Airwest merged in fall of 1980)
7. 15,217,000 Pan Am
8. 14,300,000 USAir
9. 11,947,000 Braniff
10. 11,525,000 Northwest Orient
11. 9,130,000 Western
12. 8,433,000 Continental
13. 6,100,000 PSA
14. 5,976,000 Southwest
15. 5,707,000 Piedmont
16. 4,971,000 Frontier
17. 3,970,000 Texas International
18. 3,847,000 Ozark
19. 3,290,000 Hawaiian
20. 2,698,000 Aloha
21. 2,030,000 AirCal
22. 1,713,000 Air Florida
23. 1,428,000 World
24. 1,070,000 Alaska

This is after the National merger, of course, which inflated their numbers. But National was among the smallest of the "trunk" airlines, so a very substantial portion of this 1980 passenger total came from legacy Pan Am routes.

And to give a little current-day comparision, here's the 2011 total pax for a few carriers

86,040,000 American
52,959,000 USAirways
17,810,000 Alaska
17,348,000 American Eagle
14,938,000 Frontier
 
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SEPilot
Posts: 5515
Joined: Sat Dec 30, 2006 10:21 pm

RE: How Big Was PanAm?

Tue Jan 10, 2012 8:19 pm

Quoting knope2001 (Reply 38):
For a snapshot of the comparative size of Pan Am, here are passenger figures for the largest US airlines in 1980, rounded to the nearest thousand.

Do you have figures for sometime between 1965 and 1970? That would catch PA at their peak.
The problem with making things foolproof is that fools are so doggone ingenious...Dan Keebler
 
BoeingGuy
Posts: 6313
Joined: Fri Dec 10, 2010 6:01 pm

RE: How Big Was PanAm?

Tue Jan 10, 2012 8:53 pm

Quoting milesrich (Reply 35):
Actually, Pan Am also served Ketchikan via Annette Island, and I believe Juneau at one time. But remember, when those routes to Alaska and Hawaii were awarded, those were NOT STATES, but US Territories, somewhat like Guam, and Puerto Rico, and the routes, were not really considered domestic in nature, since you had to fly over the ocean or Canada to get to them.

Yeah, AFAIK they also served YXY when they served JNU and ANN.

Quoting milesrich (Reply 35):
Pan Am never had routes to Canada.

Other than refueling in Gander and stuff like that, I believe YXY was PA's only Canadian destination, so they did serve Canada at one time.
 
BoeingGuy
Posts: 6313
Joined: Fri Dec 10, 2010 6:01 pm

RE: How Big Was PanAm?

Tue Jan 10, 2012 8:56 pm

Okay, besides YXY, PA also served OME. Learn something new everyday.

http://www.timetableimages.com/ttimages/pa/pa58/pa58-07.jpg
 
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rikkus67
Posts: 1328
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RE: How Big Was PanAm?

Tue Jan 10, 2012 9:34 pm

January 22, 1954 Pan American World Airways inaugurates their super clipper DC6B service to Juneau, Whitehorse and Fairbanks. Don Davis, the local Pan Am manager hosts the travelers.

http://www.hougengroup.com/yukonhist.../facts_year/1950s.aspx?year50=1954
AC.WA.CP.DL.RW.CO.WG.WJ.WN.KI.FL.SK.ACL.UA.US.F9
 
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rikkus67
Posts: 1328
Joined: Fri Jun 09, 2000 11:34 am

RE: How Big Was PanAm?

Tue Jan 10, 2012 9:54 pm

Whitehorse was an important stop off for support of the DEW (Distant Early Warning) line of defense, for the US military. I imagine with distances travelled, this was an important fuel stop at that time...
AC.WA.CP.DL.RW.CO.WG.WJ.WN.KI.FL.SK.ACL.UA.US.F9
 
bobnwa
Posts: 4514
Joined: Fri Dec 22, 2000 12:10 am

RE: How Big Was PanAm?

Tue Jan 10, 2012 10:15 pm

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 17):
Just because a 737 take off from ORD to YYZ doesn't make it intenational, yeah Canada is another country. A 777 from JFK to LHR, HKG, or GRU is my idea of an international flight. What LAX and JFK do is my idea of "international", what Miami does is not the same, sure they handle tons of "international" flights but they are A320's and 737 mostly.




I would wager that most people and airline employees would would consider flights to Canada , Mexico. South America as international. Same with flights between LHR-AMS, and CDG-FCO. I would say customs and immigration would also agree.
 
BoeingGuy
Posts: 6313
Joined: Fri Dec 10, 2010 6:01 pm

RE: How Big Was PanAm?

Tue Jan 10, 2012 10:18 pm

Quoting rikkus67 (Reply 43):
Whitehorse was an important stop off for support of the DEW (Distant Early Warning) line of defense, for the US military. I imagine with distances travelled, this was an important fuel stop at that time...

Did PA operate 707s SEA-ANN-JNU-YXY-FAI also? When was it discontinued? I'm assuming that was the routing.

WA did ANN and JNU with 707s also.

AS diverted a JNU bound 734 into YXY a few years ago when they had some kind of FMC and RNP degradation and KTN, JNU and SIT were all below landing minimums. Other than that, not too much US service to YXY these days.
 
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knope2001
Posts: 2971
Joined: Wed Jun 01, 2005 5:54 am

RE: How Big Was PanAm?

Tue Jan 10, 2012 10:58 pm

Quoting SEPilot (Reply 39):
Do you have figures for sometime between 1965 and 1970? That would catch PA at their peak.

Unfortunately not...1980 is all I have.

I don't think that Pan Am passenger traffic was at its largest in the late 60's, if for no other reason that they moved from 707's to 747's through the 1970's.
 
ghYHZ
Posts: 420
Joined: Tue Feb 26, 2008 4:26 pm

RE: How Big Was PanAm?

Tue Jan 10, 2012 11:57 pm

Quoting BoeingGuy (Reply 40):
Quoting milesrich (Reply 35):
Pan Am never had routes to Canada.

Other than refueling in Gander and stuff like that, I believe YXY was PA's only Canadian destination, so they did serve Canada at one time.

Back in the “Flying Boat” era Pan Am also served Botwood (near Gander) Newfoundland (A separate country then and not part of Canada until 1949) The original Pan Am Passenger Terminal still stands and is now a Heritage Centre.





Pan Am also served Shediac, New Brunswick....along the coast just east of Moncton YQM.
 
timz
Posts: 6579
Joined: Fri Sep 17, 1999 7:43 am

RE: How Big Was PanAm?

Tue Jan 10, 2012 11:57 pm

Quoting SEPilot (Reply 39):
Do you have figures for sometime between 1965 and 1970?

The Wikipedia articles on AA-UA-TW-PA etc should have RPMs for each of them.
 
Viscount724
Posts: 19316
Joined: Thu Oct 12, 2006 7:32 pm

RE: How Big Was PanAm?

Wed Jan 11, 2012 1:37 am

Quoting BoeingGuy (Reply 45):
Did PA operate 707s SEA-ANN-JNU-YXY-FAI also? When was it discontinued? I'm assuming that was the routing.

They never used the 707 to YXY. That was a DC-6B that operated JNU-YXY-FAI a couple of days a week and connected with the 707 that operated SEA-ANN-JNU. They also had nonstop 707 service SEA-FAI.

Pan Am's route authority to ANN and JNU was withdrawn by the CAB sometime in the late 1960s (they didn't think there was room for two carriers in those small markets) leaving Pan Am with only SEA-FAI nonstop.

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