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cyxuk
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How Is YUL-DOH Doing

Tue Jan 10, 2012 2:27 am

I know that QR hasn't been on this route too long (Since June I believe), just wondering how things are going so far, or if anyone has flown it, and could tell us how the load was?
 
dash8pilot
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RE: How Is YUL-DOH Doing

Tue Jan 10, 2012 4:23 am

I to have been wondering about this.. I noticed they often operate the 77W instead of the 77L. Is this an indicator of good loads or just the few 77L being operated on longer routes. Also I plan to fly QR 927 on a ZED ticket, is there any good websites to the check the load before going to the airport  
 
Thenoflyzone
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RE: How Is YUL-DOH Doing

Tue Jan 10, 2012 5:57 pm

According to Mr. James Cherry (CEO of Montreal Airport) a few months ago, the loads were great.

Now, you probably know as well as me that loads don't mean diddly nowadays. As for yields, that's something we will never know, unless QR decide to launch an IPO in the coming year....LOL

Thenoflyzone
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flyyul
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RE: How Is YUL-DOH Doing

Tue Jan 10, 2012 7:28 pm

QR just loaded YUL as a 777-300ER effective April.

I've also heard loads are very strong.
 
VonRichtofen
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RE: How Is YUL-DOH Doing

Tue Jan 10, 2012 8:48 pm

I've loaded many an Embraer to YUL lately where it seemed at least 50% of the load were QR connecting bags.
 
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c172akula
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RE: How Is YUL-DOH Doing

Tue Jan 10, 2012 8:52 pm

Quoting VonRichtofen (Reply 4):
I've loaded many an Embraer to YUL lately where it seemed at least 50% of the load were QR connecting bags.

Well then, I guess QR better get working on the YYC-DOH flight...  
 
theobcman
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RE: How Is YUL-DOH Doing

Tue Jan 10, 2012 10:08 pm

Quoting flyyul (Reply 3):

Who is flying between YUL-DOH ? What sort of pax are using it ? Business links, thru traffic to India/Pakistan etc ?
 
BMIFlyer
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RE: How Is YUL-DOH Doing

Tue Jan 10, 2012 10:15 pm

Quoting theobcman (Reply 6):

Indian subcontinent traffic. Also there are many Canadian troops in the gulf, and there are many RCAF personnel stationed in Qatar.
Sometimes You Can't Make It On Your Own
 
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IrishAyes
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RE: How Is YUL-DOH Doing

Tue Jan 10, 2012 10:36 pm

What are the bilateral agreements like between Canada and Qatar? If there is any more room for frequencies, then why doesn't QR expand more to other Canadian cities?
 
flyyul
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RE: How Is YUL-DOH Doing

Tue Jan 10, 2012 10:52 pm

I've heard that BKK/DEL and Pakistan represent the top connecting points. In the summer they get some price sensitive back-track stuff to Syria, Iran and Lebanon
 
Thenoflyzone
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RE: How Is YUL-DOH Doing

Tue Jan 10, 2012 11:03 pm

Quoting IrishAyes (Reply 8):
What are the bilateral agreements like between Canada and Qatar? If there is any more room for frequencies, then why doesn't QR expand more to other Canadian cities?

QR has rights for 6 frequencies/week, 3 passenger flights, 3 cargo flights.

Thenoflyzone
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dash8pilot
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RE: How Is YUL-DOH Doing

Wed Jan 11, 2012 3:32 am

The 3 cargo frequencies are being used at YYZ.
 
ACT7
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RE: How Is YUL-DOH Doing

Sat Jan 21, 2012 4:35 am

I've never seen the check-in line busy the last five times at YUL. I know QR is upgrading their service with a 777W this summer but gulf airlines have been known to fly completely unprofitable routes and routes with low load factors to make a point.
 
KFlyer
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RE: How Is YUL-DOH Doing

Sat Jan 21, 2012 7:56 am

ACT7, actually that is more about the feed rather than making a point. If you can cross subsidize one route by making use of its feed to make the shorter hauls profitable, why not?
The opinions above are solely my own and do not express those of my employers or clients.
 
ytz
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RE: How Is YUL-DOH Doing

Sat Jan 21, 2012 8:21 am

Quoting ACT7 (Reply 12):
I've never seen the check-in line busy the last five times at YUL. I know QR is upgrading their service with a 777W this summer but gulf airlines have been known to fly completely unprofitable routes and routes with low load factors to make a point.

Do you have more solid evidence for that conjecture. I doubt EK flies too many unprofitable routes.

While they may take losses initially, they tend to view such losses as loss leaders, which will lead to market penetration and expansion. It may not be concept understood by Western carriers, but I'm glad there's companies out there willing to take a chance on Canada.

Moreover, if there's a lot of transfer pax at YUL, you won't see them at the front check-in counter.

Quoting KFlyer (Reply 13):
ACT7, actually that is more about the feed rather than making a point. If you can cross subsidize one route by making use of its feed to make the shorter hauls profitable, why not?

And it's still pure conjecture that they they aren't making money on YUL-DOH.
 
Thenoflyzone
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RE: How Is YUL-DOH Doing

Sat Jan 21, 2012 6:37 pm

Quoting Dash8Pilot (Reply 1):
I noticed they often operate the 77W instead of the 77L. Is this an indicator of good loads or just the few 77L being operated on longer routes

So far, none of the routes announced by QR for 2012 needs the range of the 77L, meaning therefore that the change from 77L to 77W is mostly based on YUL's performance.

Quoting ACT7 (Reply 12):
I know QR is upgrading their service with a 777W this summer but gulf airlines have been known to fly completely unprofitable routes and routes with low load factors to make a point.

That might have been true a few years ago, but not anymore. QR posted a profit for the first time in 2010 i believe, which doesn't say much about the airline's last 20 years, but does show that QR is now also striving for profit.

Thenoflyzone

[Edited 2012-01-21 11:11:02]
us Air Traffic Controllers have a good record, we haven't left one up there yet !!
 
greggariouspdx
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RE: How Is YUL-DOH Doing

Sun Jan 22, 2012 6:15 am

I flew it in November 2011 in J and it was 100% full in J and Y on the YUL-DOH but only 50% full on the return. Amazing service in J.
 
ACT7
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RE: How Is YUL-DOH Doing

Sun Jan 22, 2012 5:45 pm

Quoting YTZ (Reply 14):
Moreover, if there's a lot of transfer pax at YUL, you won't see them at the front check-in counter.

True - I wouldn't suggest, though, that YUL is a major connection hub so my guess is that most of the passengers flying QR from YUL would be originating in YUL. Yes, it's a guess, but a quick look at the other international check-in line-ups leads me to believe this. And that includes Air Algerie. and Royal Jordanian.

KFlyer is probably right though about cross subsidization. I would be curious to know, however, what the demand is from YUL to the subcontinent. My guess is not very large, and I would argue that Middle East traffic from YUL would have a shorter connection via Europe.
 
Viscount724
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RE: How Is YUL-DOH Doing

Sun Jan 22, 2012 7:14 pm

Quoting ACT7 (Reply 17):
I would argue that Middle East traffic from YUL would have a shorter connection via Europe.

But as long as QR's fares are low, many passengers won't mind taking a few hours longer, and those markets are very price-sensitive. QR doesn't seem to care whether they make a profit of not (they have yet to report a single profitable year) so they are probably offering some very attractive fares for back-tracking routings to Middle East points that could be reached more conveniently via Europe.
 
flyyul
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RE: How Is YUL-DOH Doing

Sun Jan 22, 2012 7:36 pm

Based on the info I've received, QR's load factor has been consistently hovering around 90% with about 30% of the flt connecting inbound at YUL from Ottawa and Western Canada primarily.
 
6thfreedom
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RE: How Is YUL-DOH Doing

Mon Jan 23, 2012 12:46 am

Quoting flyyul (Reply 19):
Based on the info I've received, QR's load factor has been consistently hovering around 90% with about 30% of the flt connecting inbound at YUL from Ottawa and Western Canada primarily.

The top 5 connecting destinations beyond DOH are:

DAC
IKA
DEL
LHE
BEY
KHI

about 35% of the traffic on the flight is point to point YUL-DOH-YUL, the rest connecting.
comments about loads at 90% for last year are also accurate.
 
ACT7
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RE: How Is YUL-DOH Doing

Mon Jan 23, 2012 12:55 am

Quoting 6thfreedom (Reply 20):
comments about loads at 90% for last year are also accurate.

Do you have a source for that?
 
flyyul
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RE: How Is YUL-DOH Doing

Mon Jan 23, 2012 1:28 am

Quoting ACT7 (Reply 21):
Do you have a source for that?

Yes, people who work at QR's Montreal office
 
ACT7
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RE: How Is YUL-DOH Doing

Mon Jan 23, 2012 1:36 am

Quoting flyyul (Reply 22):
Yes, people who work at QR's Montreal office

Interesting - considering just about every other airline in the world doesn't release load information. I guess QR must be special...
 
ytz
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RE: How Is YUL-DOH Doing

Mon Jan 23, 2012 2:07 am

Quoting ACT7 (Reply 17):
and I would argue that Middle East traffic from YUL would have a shorter connection via Europe.

Not always. You gotta look at connection times.

I can't say for sure when it comes to the Middle East. But when it comes to South Asia, a huge part of why the Gulf carriers are so successful are their connection times. They fly to more destinations in South Asia and with usually shorter connection times than any Europe routing save perhaps a handful like TK and 9W.

Quoting ACT7 (Reply 23):
Interesting - considering just about every other airline in the world doesn't release load information. I guess QR must be special...

Having a source and releasing information are two different things....

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 18):
QR doesn't seem to care whether they make a profit of not (they have yet to report a single profitable year)
http://www.aviationweek.com/aw/gener...aily&id=news/avd/2011/02/03/11.xml
http://www.centreforaviation.com/ana...or-qatar-airways-roll-on-ipo-42506

Let's be clear. QR is a lot closer to EK on the business front than it is to EY or GF.
 
Avianca
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RE: How Is YUL-DOH Doing

Mon Jan 23, 2012 2:36 am

Quoting flyyul (Reply 9):
I've heard that BKK/DEL and Pakistan represent the top connecting points. In the summer they get some price sensitive back-track stuff to Syria, Iran and Lebanon
Quoting 6thfreedom (Reply 20):
DAC
IKA
DEL
LHE
BEY
KHI

I was pritty sure that BEY is a good seller on these flights!!!

Quoting 6thfreedom (Reply 20):
about 35% of the traffic on the flight is point to point YUL-DOH-YUL, the rest connecting.
comments about loads at 90% for last year are also accurate.

well not bad 35% point to point traffic!

Can remember when QR started years ago flying to MUC... the yearly point to point traffic between these two citys were around 100 passengers per year..... these days this is of course totally changed.
Colombia es el Mundo Y el Mundo es Colombia
 
ACT7
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RE: How Is YUL-DOH Doing

Mon Jan 23, 2012 3:46 am

Quoting ytz (Reply 24):
Having a source and releasing information are two different things....

True, but no one has posted a source and as I said, airlines are generally not forthcoming about loads. Therefore I question those numbers until proven wrong.
 
flyyul
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RE: How Is YUL-DOH Doing

Mon Jan 23, 2012 4:00 am

Quoting ACT7 (Reply 26):
True, but no one has posted a source and as I said, airlines are generally not forthcoming about loads. Therefore I question those numbers until proven wrong

ACT7 check your private messages. To my surprise, QR has been consistently full. I'm not a fan of the 3 amigos in the middle east, but they have a network that offers destinations that are either very difficult to reach, and or poorly covered by European network carriers (Sri Lanka, Nepal, Pakistan, Saudi, South East Asia). While i'm not convinced that QR makes money, I am convinced that they have a unique position and have no trouble at leveraging global traffic via DOH.
 
ACT7
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RE: How Is YUL-DOH Doing

Mon Jan 23, 2012 4:15 am

Quoting flyyul (Reply 27):
To my surprise, QR has been consistently full. I'm not a fan of the 3 amigos in the middle east, but they have a network that offers destinations that are either very difficult to reach, and or poorly covered by European network carriers (Sri Lanka, Nepal, Pakistan, Saudi, South East Asia). While i'm not convinced that QR makes money, I am convinced that they have a unique position and have no trouble at leveraging global traffic via DOH.

I completely agree that EK, EY, and QR are well positioned to serve rather obscure destinations on the sub-continent. My surprise comes more from the fact that YUL's market to those destinations can fill a triple 7 connecting in DOH. The much larger, and still underserved market is 500 km to the west of YUL and my gut tells me that QR would love to siphen off some of those pax from YYZ. But I would guess that most people from the GTA would not connect in YUL via DOH to continue on to the sub-continent. I could be wrong but I can tell you that most people I know (including me) wouldn't do that.
 
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Qatara340
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RE: How Is YUL-DOH Doing

Mon Jan 23, 2012 5:52 am

Quoting Avianca (Reply 25):
Can remember when QR started years ago flying to MUC... the yearly point to point traffic between these two citys were around 100 passengers per year..... these days this is of course totally changed.

Impossible since MUC is a medical hub and is a major destination since the onset of the route. 100 per year is like 1 passenger every 3.65 days lol.

Quoting ACT7 (Reply 28):

I completely agree that EK, EY, and QR are well positioned to serve rather obscure destinations on the sub-continent. My surprise comes more from the fact that YUL's market to those destinations can fill a triple 7 connecting in DOH. The much larger, and still underserved market is 500 km to the west of YUL and my gut tells me that QR would love to siphen off some of those pax from YYZ. But I would guess that most people from the GTA would not connect in YUL via DOH to continue on to the sub-continent. I could be wrong but I can tell you that most people I know (including me) wouldn't do that.

I think were gonna hear more rambling from AAB about getting more destinations in Canada, but until now, we might only see a codeshare or two.
لا اله الا الله محمد رسول الله
 
Thenoflyzone
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RE: How Is YUL-DOH Doing

Mon Jan 23, 2012 3:17 pm

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 18):
QR doesn't seem to care whether they make a profit of not (they have yet to report a single profitable year)

i beg to differ.

http://www.centreforaviation.com/ana...or-qatar-airways-roll-on-ipo-42506

QR launching routes for the sake of putting themselves out there is not their #1 motivation anymore. That was their mentality during the last 20 years, but that has all changed.

Thenoflyzone
us Air Traffic Controllers have a good record, we haven't left one up there yet !!
 
ACT7
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RE: How Is YUL-DOH Doing

Mon Jan 23, 2012 4:27 pm

Quoting QatarA340 (Reply 29):
I think were gonna hear more rambling from AAB about getting more destinations in Canada, but until now, we might only see a codeshare or two.

Gulf carriers seem fundamentally opposed to code sharing or alliances of any kind. Interline agreements is another story but I'd be surprised to see QR code share with any Canadian carrier.
 
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Qatara340
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RE: How Is YUL-DOH Doing

Mon Jan 23, 2012 4:31 pm

Quoting ACT7 (Reply 31):
Gulf carriers seem fundamentally opposed to code sharing or alliances of any kind. Interline agreements is another story but I'd be surprised to see QR code share with any Canadian carrier.

QR already codeshares with many airlines, so its nothing new. MEA, BD, Malaysia, UA, Thai, ect..
لا اله الا الله محمد رسول الله
 
ACT7
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RE: How Is YUL-DOH Doing

Mon Jan 23, 2012 4:36 pm

Quoting QatarA340 (Reply 32):
QR already codeshares with many airlines, so its nothing new. MEA, BD, Malaysia, UA, Thai, ect..

Are you sure it's a true code-share and not just an interline agreement? This has been my understanding all along.
 
Thenoflyzone
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RE: How Is YUL-DOH Doing

Mon Jan 23, 2012 4:42 pm

Quoting ACT7 (Reply 33):

Are you sure it's a true code-share and not just an interline agreement? This has been my understanding all along.

yes, QR codeshares with many airlines.....

http://www1.qatarairways.com/global/en/code-share-partners.html

Thenoflyzone
us Air Traffic Controllers have a good record, we haven't left one up there yet !!
 
ASA
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RE: How Is YUL-DOH Doing

Mon Jan 23, 2012 4:57 pm

Quoting 6thfreedom (Reply 20):
The top 5 connecting destinations beyond DOH are:

DAC
IKA
DEL
LHE
BEY
KHI

about 35% of the traffic on the flight is point to point YUL-DOH-YUL, the rest connecting.
comments about loads at 90% for last year are also accurate.

I am surprised to see that passengers to DAC are among the top few using this flight. But given the unbelievable number of immigrants into Canada from the Subcontinent and my fellow Bangladeshis, it is, I guess, very reasonable. Many I know in Canada (from YWG, YYC, and even YVR) connect through YYZ on EK flights to DXB, and then onto DAC. So some of them maybe connecting via YUL now. Montreal itself has a sizeable 'desi'  population too ...
 
ACT7
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RE: How Is YUL-DOH Doing

Mon Jan 23, 2012 5:56 pm

Quoting ASA (Reply 35):
Montreal itself has a sizeable 'desi' population too ...

Actually, according to the last cenus of 2006, Montreal's 'desi' population is just under 6,000 people. I wouldn't exactly call that sizeable. Pakistani about 11,500. In fact if you add up just about all South East Asian communities (even including other Asian communities like Thai, Japanese, Filipino, etc) Montreal's total sits at around 130,000. Throw in the Chinese population and it's about 215,000. Reasonably big, yes, but out of that, it's still surprising to hear that flights on QR are full with the top destinations listed, given how price sensitive those markets are. BEY, I totally get but that makes me wonder how long Royal Jordanian will continue since QR must be siphening off pax from them.

http://www12.statcan.ca/census-recen...ount&StartRec=1&Sort=3&Display=All
 
flyyul
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RE: How Is YUL-DOH Doing

Mon Jan 23, 2012 7:19 pm

Quoting ACT7 (Reply 36):
Quoting ACT7 (Reply 36):

Actually, according to the last cenus of 2006, Montreal's 'desi' population is just under 6,000 people. I wouldn't exactly call that sizeable. Pakistani about 11,500. In fact if you add up just about all South East Asian communities (even including other Asian communities like Thai, Japanese, Filipino, etc) Montreal's total sits at around 130,000. T

Indian is at 40,000. Immigration has been at the highest pace since 2006 (50,000 + p.a.). Not pretending that the community is huge. Also consider the traffic to UAE/Saudi/Iran.

Consult this profile.

http://www.stat.gouv.qc.ca/donstat/s...ographie/migrt_poplt_imigr/603.htm
 
ytz
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RE: How Is YUL-DOH Doing

Mon Jan 23, 2012 7:37 pm

Quoting ACT7 (Reply 28):
I completely agree that EK, EY, and QR are well positioned to serve rather obscure destinations on the sub-continent. My surprise comes more from the fact that YUL's market to those destinations can fill a triple 7 connecting in DOH. The much larger, and still underserved market is 500 km to the west of YUL and my gut tells me that QR would love to siphen off some of those pax from YYZ. But I would guess that most people from the GTA would not connect in YUL via DOH to continue on to the sub-continent. I could be wrong but I can tell you that most people I know (including me) wouldn't do that.
Quoting ACT7 (Reply 36):
Actually, according to the last cenus of 2006, Montreal's 'desi' population is just under 6,000 people. I wouldn't exactly call that sizeable. Pakistani about 11,500. In fact if you add up just about all South East Asian communities (even including other Asian communities like Thai, Japanese, Filipino, etc) Montreal's total sits at around 130,000. Throw in the Chinese population and it's about 215,000. Reasonably big, yes, but out of that, it's still surprising to hear that flights on QR are full with the top destinations listed, given how price sensitive those markets are. BEY, I totally get but that makes me wonder how long Royal Jordanian will continue since QR must be siphening off pax from them.

http://www12.statcan.ca/census-recen...y=All

You are ignoring the YUL catchment area when it comes to intercontinental flights. You can throw in pretty much all of Eastern Ontario into that mix and go right up to Quebec City. You have no idea how many folks in these areas drive or take a train to YUL to catch a flight. Heck, Air France has a regular shuttle service from YOW. And where do you get 6000 from? By your own link, Montreal alone has nearly 40 000 residents of Indian descent. That's only folks of Indian origin, in Montreal only, from a 5 year old census. You can bet the wider catchment area and the various populations that would fly QR would offer a significantly higher population base from which to draw potential pax.

Quoting ACT7 (Reply 31):
Gulf carriers seem fundamentally opposed to code sharing or alliances of any kind. Interline agreements is another story but I'd be surprised to see QR code share with any Canadian carrier.

Why should they have to codeshare? If they can compete on their own they should. The only reason to codeshare would to be get a feeder network at a point like YUL. The idea that these airlines should be generous just for the sake of it is ludicrous.

And from a pax perspective, I much prefer an interline agreement. That way I know which airline to blame when the one that I am codesharing screws up. But in the end as long as they offer some way of getting from Point A to Point B, be it shuttle bus, codeshare or interline agreement, the only thing I will care about as a pax is the fare, the schedule and the service/comfort level of the flight.

By the way, even from YOW, QR's schedule is phenomenal. From YOW to BOM in 21 hrs 20 mins. The return in 22 hrs. Try that on any Star Alliance. Only two routings which are faster. One of which involves me changing airports in New York City. And both involve flying United, with service nowhere as close to what you get on QR. Just try asking for a dram of booze on United.
 
Thenoflyzone
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RE: How Is YUL-DOH Doing

Mon Jan 23, 2012 7:47 pm

Quoting ytz (Reply 38):
You are ignoring the YUL catchment area when it comes to intercontinental flights. You can throw in pretty much all of Eastern Ontario into that mix and go right up to Quebec City.

Add to that upstate NY, Vermont and NH  

The number of Americans who transit through YUL for international flights keeps growing every year.

Thenoflyzone
us Air Traffic Controllers have a good record, we haven't left one up there yet !!
 
ACT7
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RE: How Is YUL-DOH Doing

Mon Jan 23, 2012 8:18 pm

Quoting ytz (Reply 38):
And where do you get 6000 from?

I was commenting on the 'sizeable' Bangladeshi population reference that was made. 6,000 is not sizeable by any standards. If you look further into the list you will see it. And yes, it is 5 years old but I would doubt very much that it has jumped from 6,000 to 50,000 in that time. Anyway you slice it, even in the cachement area, it is not a HUGE Southeast Asian population. The 215K that I mentioned includes the 40-50K of East Indian.

Quebec city has under 1,000 East Indians, Sherbrooke under 500, Trois Riviere maybe 100 now...shall I continue? Okay, and Ottawa has somewhere in the range of 50,000 Southeast Asians. Assuming a good chunk of that population can just as easily catch a flight directly on Air India or PIA, both of which offer non-stop service to 3 of the top destinations listed, or 9W out of YYZ, we're not talking a massive cachement area for YUL to draw from. As I also mentioned, those destinations are very price sensitive and QR is generally more expensive than Air India or PIA,

http://www12.statcan.ca/census-recen...&Sort=3&Display=All&CSDFilter=5000

http://www12.statcan.ca/census-recen...ount&StartRec=1&Sort=3&Display=All

http://www12.statcan.ca/census-recen...ount&StartRec=1&Sort=3&Display=All

http://www12.statcan.ca/census-recen...ount&StartRec=1&Sort=3&Display=All


I also doubt there is a sizeable Asian community in N.H. and Vermont. My guess is most of those transit passengers are on their way to Europe.


Obviously QR must know its numbers but its' just surprising is all I'm saying.

Quoting ytz (Reply 38):
Air France has a regular shuttle service from YOW

I never questioned Air France. Air France makes total sense.
 
ASA
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RE: How Is YUL-DOH Doing

Mon Jan 23, 2012 9:05 pm

Quoting ACT7 (Reply 40):
I was commenting on the 'sizeable' Bangladeshi population reference that was made. 6,000 is not sizeable by any standards. If you look further into the list you will see it. And yes, it is 5 years old but I would doubt very much that it has jumped from 6,000 to 50,000 in that time.

Looks like my comments have spurred a lot of discussion, which is great. But just to clarify, we 'desis' tend to put all 'desis' in one basket  Meaning, I was referring to the whole of South Asian community ... Indians, Pakistanis, and Bangladeshis. We agree on the bottom line though ... the top transit destinations from YUL were surprising indeed.
 
Emirates773ER
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RE: How Is YUL-DOH Doing

Mon Jan 23, 2012 9:08 pm

Quoting ACT7 (Reply 40):
ACT7

You are now arguing for the sake of argument. Most indian pakistanis do not use their national airlines while traveling back to the sub-continent.
The Truth is Out There ---- Face It!!!!!
 
ACT7
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RE: How Is YUL-DOH Doing

Mon Jan 23, 2012 9:14 pm

Quoting ASA (Reply 41):
You are now arguing for the sake of argument. Most indian pakistanis do not use their national airlines while traveling back to the sub-continent.

What I said was that those markets are very price sensitive and that QR's fares are generally higher than airlines that offer non-stop service. Obviously QR's product is better but I don't think anyone would dispute that those markets are highly price sensitive. Why do you think AC could never make a go of it properly? So, no, I am not arguing for the sake of arguing. I think I've presented some valid points backed-up with some data. Check some other threads that talk about the Sub-continent market and it pretty much focuses on yield and price sensitivity. I'm not pulling this information out of my ass.

Quoting ASA (Reply 41):
Looks like my comments have spurred a lot of discussion, which is great. But just to clarify, we 'desis' tend to put all 'desis' in one basket Meaning, I was referring to the whole of South Asian community ... Indians, Pakistanis, and Bangladeshis. We agree on the bottom line though ... the top transit destinations from YUL were surprising indeed.

Thanks for clarifying... 
 
Emirates773ER
Posts: 1325
Joined: Mon Jun 27, 2005 9:10 am

RE: How Is YUL-DOH Doing

Mon Jan 23, 2012 9:58 pm

Quoting ACT7 (Reply 43):
What I said was that those markets are very price sensitive and that QR's fares are generally higher than airlines that offer non-stop service. Obviously QR's product is better but I don't think anyone would dispute that those markets are highly price sensitive. Why do you think AC could never make a go of it properly? So, no, I am not arguing for the sake of arguing. I think I've presented some valid points backed-up with some data. Check some other threads that talk about the Sub-continent market and it pretty much focuses on yield and price sensitivity. I'm not pulling this information out of my ass.

AC could not make it because it offered a poor product with high fares, I haven't met a desi yet who will fly air canada intentionally. PIA is defiantly not cheaper than Qatar Airways flying out of Toronto, a simple search can tell you that.
The Truth is Out There ---- Face It!!!!!
 
Viscount724
Posts: 19316
Joined: Thu Oct 12, 2006 7:32 pm

RE: How Is YUL-DOH Doing

Mon Jan 23, 2012 11:05 pm

Quoting ACT7 (Reply 33):
Quoting QatarA340 (Reply 32):
QR already codeshares with many airlines, so its nothing new. MEA, BD, Malaysia, UA, Thai, ect..

Are you sure it's a true code-share and not just an interline agreement? This has been my understanding all along.

Yes they are codeshares.
http://www1.qatarairways.com/us/en/code-share-partners.html
 
Skywatcher
Posts: 896
Joined: Sat Sep 14, 2002 11:19 am

RE: How Is YUL-DOH Doing

Mon Jan 23, 2012 11:25 pm

I admire QR for "thinking outside of the box" and starting DOH-YUL in the first place. All indications are that it is successful so far and that their risky experiment is paying off.

I'm surprised that Colombo, Sri Lanka isn't higher on the list of transfer cities.

It seems to me that most "new Canadians" travelling back home for a visit need to do a double transfer anyway (unless they're from YYZ) so QR is definately a logical choice when it comes to looking at options. In fact if it was me, I'd rather avoid some of the larger hubs (especially American ones with visa/customs hassles) and do a transfer at YUL since the flight leaves at around 23:00 when the airport is not at all crowded and transferring from domestic to International is really easy..
 
Avianca
Posts: 5375
Joined: Tue Jan 25, 2005 5:33 am

RE: How Is YUL-DOH Doing

Tue Jan 24, 2012 1:05 am

Quoting QatarA340 (Reply 29):
Impossible since MUC is a medical hub and is a major destination since the onset of the route. 100 per year is like 1 passenger every 3.65 days lol.

well I was refering to before they started the flights. they started MUC how long ago? nearly 15 years ago? These days DOH was a totally other planet than these days... they just started MUC because they received very nice incentives from the airport authoroty
Colombia es el Mundo Y el Mundo es Colombia
 
ytz
Posts: 3529
Joined: Thu Jun 25, 2009 12:31 am

RE: How Is YUL-DOH Doing

Tue Jan 24, 2012 1:23 am

Quoting ACT7 (Reply 40):
I was commenting on the 'sizeable' Bangladeshi population reference that was made.

Then don't use the term 'desi'. That refers to anybody originating from the entire sub-continent.

Quoting ACT7 (Reply 40):
Anyway you slice it, even in the cachement area, it is not a HUGE Southeast Asian population.

And please stop saying Southeast Asian unless you are referring to people from Vietnam, Thailand, Indonesia, etc. If you are referring to people from the Indian sub-continent, it's South Asian.

Quoting ACT7 (Reply 40):
As I also mentioned, those destinations are very price sensitive and QR is generally more expensive than Air India or PIA,

As I said earlier. It's not just South Asians. It's also Middle Easterners/Arabs. And the Middle Eastern/Arab community is far larger and probably wealthier (and more likely to travel) than the South Asian community. Next, the Persian diaspora too. And then tack on business travel from Montreal to the Gulf (not insignificant given the large number of Montreal based engineering firms (like SNC-Lavalin) with huge contracts in the Middle East). You'd be surprised how much demand there is.

Quoting ACT7 (Reply 40):
Obviously QR must know its numbers but its' just surprising is all I'm saying.

To anybody with Air Canada's blinders on it's surprising. To the rest of us, we've always known there's latent demand that's waiting to be tapped into.
 
ytz
Posts: 3529
Joined: Thu Jun 25, 2009 12:31 am

RE: How Is YUL-DOH Doing

Tue Jan 24, 2012 1:50 am

Quoting ACT7 (Reply 43):
What I said was that those markets are very price sensitive and that QR's fares are generally higher than airlines that offer non-stop service. Obviously QR's product is better but I don't think anyone would dispute that those markets are highly price sensitive.

Actually, many of us would. There is a persistent stereotype of South Asians being cheap. Another way to say this is to say that you "don't think anyone would dispute that those markets are highly price sensitive." However, the market is evolving. Price isn't the only thing that matters. When you are talking fare differences that are often within $100, schedule and service definitely come into play. And of late, FF programs too. LH covers maybe half a dozen Indian cities. Connection times for anything other than BOM and DEL aren't great. That often means, if you are going anywhere other than BOM and DEL, that you will have a long layover and may end up incurring another stopover in India itself. QR covers nearly a dozen places in India, with signficantly higher frequencies. You can get to more places. You can get there with a shorter layover. And you can often avoid a stopover in India. Here's an interesting example. One of the biggest cities in India: CCU. Try to book a Star Alliance routining after March. Check out the travel duration.

Star Alliance seems to forget that South Asia is a big place and not everybody is heading to BOM and DEL. South Asians may care about the ticket prices, but they often will pay a little bit more once they take into account all those other factors.

Quoting ACT7 (Reply 43):
Why do you think AC could never make a go of it properly?


Because their idea of serving India is some routing through Zurich. They also seem to think that India, despite having one of the most dynamic economies on the planet, will have only static demand for air travel for the next decade. It's Air Canada. You can't expect brilliance from their corporate suite (unless it comes to screwing over their employees).

Quoting ACT7 (Reply 43):
I think I've presented some valid points backed-up with some data.
Quoting ACT7 (Reply 43):
I'm not pulling this information out of my ass.


Your assertion is simply that the population base is small. And that yield is low. The former is simply not true. YUL's catchment area and its ethnic population bases are big enough to support this service. Not to mention just general non-VFR traffic to the Middle East. The yield argument is based purely on AC's experience with a third rate offering to India. That's barely comparable to QR's service, schedule and connection opportunities (of which they offer more than all of Star Alliance when it comes to the Middle East and South Asia).

The only way AC can (and should) compete is with a direct flight to an Indian partner's hub with their new 787s. Since China is more important to them, so be it, they and their Star Alliance partners should be prepared to see a significant loss in market share to the Three Amigos and 9W.

By the way, it's not just AC. LH's offering from Frankfurt is almost insulting. They put their worst aircraft on their India runs. And yet some wonder why South Asian Canadians are choosing EK, EY, QR.

[Edited 2012-01-23 17:58:59]

[Edited 2012-01-23 18:17:40]

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