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UA191
Topic Author
Posts: 23
Joined: Fri Apr 30, 2010 10:39 pm

Alitalia YYZ-FCO Loads

Fri Jan 13, 2012 3:22 am

What are AZ's loads looking like out of YYZ?
Also - how do you think their brand re-creation has gone since the bankruptcy?
I know the old 767s on this route can't help...
UA Global Services, DL Platinum Medallion, AC Super Elite - I love flying!!!
 
pnd100
Posts: 198
Joined: Wed Mar 18, 2009 4:40 pm

RE: Alitalia YYZ-FCO Loads

Fri Jan 13, 2012 4:51 am

I do not have hard data (as I have no idea where to obtain this)
All I have is speculation from many friends, family & colleagues who lament that there is no nonstop connection to MXP from Canada. They claim that most (their words!) of the Italian community & business community involved in Canada-Italy are involved in Milan & the North. (I don't think that this is entirely true either)

My opinion as an observer is that AZ lacks the fleet to operate both Rome & Milan. They choose Rome as it is a) twice as large as Milan b) it is the capital c) it is more centrally located in Italy & d) it provides greater transfer opportunities to onward destinations.

To answer your question I think the loads must be fairly good since the flight to Rome from Toronto operated by AZ is the only year round connection from Canada-Italy & it contains a major chunk of the traffic between the two nations. Travelers disperse from FCO to other points in Italy & beyond. Now as for yields, I am not sure. Sounds like it is mostly VFR traffic.
 
MAH4546
Posts: 26063
Joined: Wed Jan 24, 2001 1:44 pm

RE: Alitalia YYZ-FCO Loads

Fri Jan 13, 2012 11:12 am

Quoting pnd100 (Reply 1):
They claim that most (their words!) of the Italian community & business community involved in Canada-Italy are involved in Milan & the North. (I don't think that this is entirely true either)

It's not true whatsoever. Last year approximately 115,000 people flew between Rome and Toronto, making it the fourth largest local market between the Americas and Rome after New York-Rome, Los Angeles-Rome and Miami-Rome (and the 6th largest North America-Italy market after those plus NYC-MIL/MIA-MIL); meanwhile, less than 16,000 people flew between Toronto and Milan, placing it far behind many other North America-Milan markets.

Milan-North America is surprisingly small. I don't really understand why given how powerful northern Italy is as an industrual and financial centre, but that's how it is. Only Miami and New York produce over 100,000 annual O&D passengers, and after that only Los Angeles produces over 50,000 annual passengers. Other markets - Toronto, Washington, Boston, etc. - that some would expect to be bigger, simply are not. The lack of non-stops between Milan and North America (it only has flights to New York, Miami and Atlanta), though, is certainly a factor and artificially deflates the market.

[Edited 2012-01-13 03:17:29]
a.
 
pnd100
Posts: 198
Joined: Wed Mar 18, 2009 4:40 pm

RE: Alitalia YYZ-FCO Loads

Fri Jan 13, 2012 3:27 pm

Good points MAH4546. I agree. I also point out to them that Milan is easy to connect to via other cities outside of Italy. In fact the flight time is the same to connect via VIE & less to go through MUC or ZRH / GVA. Once those cities are brought into the equation the options increase, mostly from Star Alliance airlines AC, LH & OS.

The Italian community in the Greater Toronto Area is diverse. While many might be from the north, there are several also who hail from Calabria or Sicily, etc. I think the distribution is fairly equal. But Rome offers possibilities for non-Italians as well. A lot of the Maltese community flies through Rome onward to Malta. Those visiting the former Yugoslav republics also find Rome to be a good connecting point.

As you mentioned the market shows 115,000 pax annually. AZ is the only carrier on this route year round & logically the route should have good loads if not good yields. Perhaps someone has more hard data to confirm this.
 
pnwtraveler
Posts: 1074
Joined: Wed Jun 13, 2007 2:12 am

RE: Alitalia YYZ-FCO Loads

Fri Jan 13, 2012 4:08 pm

More than the "old" 767, one of the main things that holds AZ back is the unreliability for business travelers. I have an associate who flies to BEY frequently. Unfortunately for him he has been caught with wildcat strikes too often at airports, with the airline. (Although I haven't heard of many lately) He now flies to FRA or AMS that takes longer and isn't quite as convenient. I think there would be room for a 330 or 777 permanently if there were fewer disruptions and business travelers had more confidence.
 
MAH4546
Posts: 26063
Joined: Wed Jan 24, 2001 1:44 pm

RE: Alitalia YYZ-FCO Loads

Fri Jan 13, 2012 9:41 pm

Quoting pnd100 (Reply 3):
As you mentioned the market shows 115,000 pax annually. AZ is the only carrier on this route year round & logically the route should have good loads if not good yields. Perhaps someone has more hard data to confirm this.

Good loads, but not good average fares.
a.
 
alitalia610
Posts: 8
Joined: Tue Aug 23, 2005 7:27 pm

RE: Alitalia YYZ-FCO Loads

Sat Jan 14, 2012 3:19 am

Quoting pnwtraveler (Reply 4):

Those times are now fortunately gone.
AZ is now a very reliable airline,with an excellent on-time performance and a great product.
Also strikes are now completely absent in the airline.
The old 767(4) and Md80(19) left in the fleet wil be gone in the next few years,leaving AZ with one of the most modern fleets in Europe.
 
777
Posts: 441
Joined: Thu Sep 15, 2005 9:21 pm

RE: Alitalia YYZ-FCO Loads

Sat Jan 14, 2012 8:41 pm

The sixth brand new A330 should arrive at FCO on the next week. This delivery should be the first out the the 5 scheduled in the 2012 so at the end of the year all the ten new A330 will be on duty and hopefully within the same timeframe all the 767 will be phased out.

As a last positive note, by the end of the month the first 777 with a reconfigured cabin (lie flat in J class as in the new A330) should enter in service. By June 2012 all the 10 777 should be completely reconfigured.
 
pnwtraveler
Posts: 1074
Joined: Wed Jun 13, 2007 2:12 am

RE: Alitalia YYZ-FCO Loads

Sun Jan 15, 2012 6:38 pm

Quoting alitalia610 (Reply 6):
Quoting pnwtraveler (Reply 4):
Those times are now fortunately gone.
AZ is now a very reliable airline,with an excellent on-time performance and a great product.
Also strikes are now completely absent in the airline.
The old 767(4) and Md80(19) left in the fleet wil be gone in the next few years,leaving AZ with one of the most modern fleets in Europe.

That is good to hear. I am not sure it has been communicated enough to travelers to change perceptions. I suspect that Turkish Airlines must be taking some connecting traffic from AZ. Rome must have some better potential for connecting traffic. Is Milan traffic seasonal?
 
Viscount724
Posts: 19316
Joined: Thu Oct 12, 2006 7:32 pm

RE: Alitalia YYZ-FCO Loads

Sun Jan 15, 2012 8:16 pm

Quoting pnd100 (Reply 3):
The Italian community in the Greater Toronto Area is diverse. While many might be from the north, there are several also who hail from Calabria or Sicily, etc.

More than "several" from southern Italy. That was always the major source of Italian emigrants to Canada in the 1950s and 60s. When CP served FCO (and MXP), a high percentage of YYZ-FCO and YUL-FCO passengers were connecting to places like Bari and Reggio Calabria. All low yield and rarely profitable. Traditionally, LH was the largest Canada-Italy carrier for years. Not sure if that's still true.
 
User avatar
intsim
Posts: 92
Joined: Sat Nov 13, 2010 4:54 am

RE: Alitalia YYZ-FCO Loads

Tue Jan 17, 2012 6:42 am

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 5):
Good loads, but not good average fares.

Could you (or someone) elaborate this for me? I assume it to mean poor yields.?

Thank you
 
skyduster
Posts: 59
Joined: Mon Apr 02, 2007 3:00 am

RE: Alitalia YYZ-FCO Loads

Fri Jan 20, 2012 8:44 am

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 2):
The lack of non-stops between Milan and North America (it only has flights to New York, Miami and Atlanta), though, is certainly a factor and artificially deflates the market.


Bingo. AZ dropped the two-hub system, and made FCO its main hub. Not all FCO-bound passengers are staying in Rome. Many are headed toward Milan, or Venice, or Bari, or Sardinia, or Florence, or Malta, or Romania, or Greece, or Austria, or Hungary, or Israel, or Egypt. FCO is just AZ's main hub. Of course, Rome is a major destination in itself...as far as tourism in concerned, it's a much larger destination than Milan (which is not really a tourism destination), and also for politics (not just because it's the capital of Italy, but you also have two UN agencies headquartered in Rome, and of course, the Vatican.)

I think a lot of people are over-analyzing here. People headed to Italy, Malta, ex-Yugoslavia, etc, don't care where they connect. If you're headed to Malta, both FCO and MXP are on the way. If the airfare is good, they'll choose AZ over BA or LH (or whathaveyou). If you're headed to ex-YU, again, no difference. I can't speak for frequent business-travelers, but ordinary people (tourists, people visiting family, etc) don't really give a shit.

As for Italy-bound passengers, at least from North America, it doesn't matter whether you're headed to northern, central, or southern Italy...Rome's centralized location is meaningless when you consider the great-circle route. Whether you're coming from Toronto, Montreal, Los Angeles, Chicago, New York, Atlanta, Miami, or Mexico city (don't know if AZ has flights to all of these) you will enter Italian airspace from the north (at least in theory). MXP is closer to all of these North American cities than FCO. If you're headed to central or southern Italy, then you would just connect to a flight that continues your southward path. MXP wouldn't be a deviation for people headed to central or southern, whereas FCO is a slight deviation for people headed to the north (Milan, Venice, Genoa, Turin, Bologna). Even within northern, MXP is very far north and slightly west, making it a perfectly-on-the-way stop toward Bologna or Venice.

I have no idea why AZ decided to make the business decision(s) that it did, and I'm sure FCO makes more sense as a main hub (after all, AZ also has flights to Africa, Middle East, Southern Europe, etc). My point is that ordinary folks don't really take these things into consideration, trust me. Most ordinary people who take a trip somewhere, if you ask them which airline they flew with, where their layover was, etc, you'd be surprised how ignorant people can be about their own itinerary. (A LOT of people here in Chicago who've taken ONE or a few transatlantic/transpacific trips think that ALL "flights" are required to stop in the airport where they happened to have their layover). People just click on Orbitz or Expedia for the best deal and fewest layovers, and as long as the journey isn't excessively long. And given the small distance between FCO and MXP (relative to the transatlantic journey as a whole), I'm sure at least some frequent/business travelers don't really have a preference either.

Again, I have no idea how airlines make their business decisions, so please don't anybody accuse me of pretending. I'm just saying that ordinary people generally don't have have a preference, much less care, where the have their layover, and that AZ forces everyone to connect at FCO.

[Edited 2012-01-20 01:00:04]
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