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SCL767
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RE: Virgin America To Announce A New City.

Tue Jan 17, 2012 12:05 pm

Quoting phllax (Reply 48):
This will kick US in the behind more than UA and DL!

VX will certainly decrease US Airways' market-share on both routes.

Quote:
Virgin America will take approximately one-quarter market share on both routes at the main expense of Philadelphia's hub carrier, US Airways. Philadelphia is a key step in the development of Virgin America's network as it will give the carrier service to all five of the largest metropolitan areas in the US and eight of the top 10, with only Atlanta and Houston still missing from its network but likely to be added before the end of 2012.
Virgin America targets US Airways with launch of Philadelphia service in April
 
Bobloblaw
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RE: Virgin America To Announce A New City.

Tue Jan 17, 2012 12:52 pm

Quoting phllax (Reply 48):
This will kick US in the behind more than UA and DL!

I dont agree. US has the PHL point of sale with corporate contracts. VX is a LAX/SFO point of sale airline whic his the same traffic UA and DL are competing after. This sill hurt DL most and then UA. I dont think US gets a whole lot of LAX/SFO point of sale traffic and most PHL pax are going to stay with US. What will hurt US and all og them will be VX insanely low fares.

Quoting phllax (Reply 48):
The only thing similar about the USand VX products are Airbus equipment and GoGo. Otherwise VX wins hands down. Red or no IFE; power ports vs no power ports; well stocked decent BOB vs minimal stocked BOB, etc. The only thing that will keep people with US is elite status and a larger FC cabin.

I think people overestimate the impact of inflight goodies in determining passenger and revenue share. What matters most is schedule, competitive fares, reliability in OTP and dont lose people's luggage. For corporations what matters is depth and breadth of schedule, ability to use points and discounting on fares and upgrades.
 
Flytravel
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RE: Virgin America To Announce A New City.

Tue Jan 17, 2012 12:59 pm

A lot of people also took WN via a 1 stop like PHL-DEN-SFO, no plane change. I wonder how much this will affect WN at PHL.
 
Cubsrule
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RE: Virgin America To Announce A New City.

Tue Jan 17, 2012 1:39 pm

Quoting Flytravel (Reply 52):
A lot of people also took WN via a 1 stop like PHL-DEN-SFO, no plane change.

Yup, not to mention PHL-LAX. There's a one-stop PHL-BNA-LAX that I take a fair amount from BNA, and it's not at all unusual to have more than 30 thru passengers.

Quoting BobLoblaw (Reply 51):
For corporations what matters is depth and breadth of schedule, ability to use points and discounting on fares and upgrades.

Maybe, but it's pretty rare for a corporation of any size to contract with just one carrier, and equally few individual business travelers fly a single carrier exclusively.
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
 
[email protected]
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RE: Virgin America To Announce A New City.

Tue Jan 17, 2012 1:53 pm

Here's CAPA's article on the subject of VX at PHL: http://www.centreforaviation.com/ana...hiladelphia-service-in-april-66235

Good to see some data.
"Everyone writing for the Telegraph knows that the way to grab eyeballs is with Ryanair and/or sex."
 
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jfklganyc
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RE: Virgin America To Announce A New City.

Tue Jan 17, 2012 2:07 pm

"VX is doing what they seem to do best. They go into heavily served airports and go after heavily served routes. They bring in a domestic product that is superior to anyone else and take the premium traffic. I believe they are also proof that people will pay more for a better product. A 19+ inch seat in the main cabin is just unheard of these days. I personally hope they stick with this and keep growing. Eventually the other airlines will have take notice and ease up on the race to the bottom."

I am a Virgin fan. But "doing what they do best" is not how I would describe what they do.

They lose $$. A lot of it. And while I am glad to see them expand, they need to expose themselves less to low yielding leisure fares (which is what they get) on gas guzzling transcons.

The system they have in place is not working and will not work with $100 a barrel oil and stiff competition.
 
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LAXintl
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RE: Virgin America To Announce A New City.

Tue Jan 17, 2012 2:15 pm

Great to see VX expand.

While PHL is neither a Top-10 O&D market from either SFO or LAX, its a worthwhile link.

In regards to the debate who this will hurt - it will hurt everyone in the market. Gone are the days of inflated fares, and similar to heavy competition market like NYC, DC, BOS, now PHL should be able to enjoy year-round $300'ish transcon fares to California.
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
PHLBOS
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RE: Virgin America To Announce A New City.

Tue Jan 17, 2012 2:43 pm

Quoting jfklganyc (Reply 55):
doing what they do best

A twist from an old AA slogan. 

It's good to see another carrier come to PHL.

Quoting BobLoblaw (Reply 51):
US has the PHL point of sale with corporate contracts. VX is a LAX/SFO point of sale airline which is the same traffic UA and DL are competing after. This sill hurt DL most and then UA. I dont think US gets a whole lot of LAX/SFO point of sale traffic and most PHL pax are going to stay with US. What will hurt US and all og them will be VX insanely low fares.

   The success of VX's PHL-LAX/SFO routes could very well be determined by West Coast flyers making the choice.
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BMIFlyer
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RE: Virgin America To Announce A New City.

Tue Jan 17, 2012 2:52 pm

Congrats to Virgin America!
Sometimes You Can't Make It On Your Own
 
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b727fa
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RE: Virgin America To Announce A New City.

Tue Jan 17, 2012 5:14 pm

Quoting SurfandSnow (Reply 22):
However, as I understand it the airport is very short on gate space. Unless the opening of Concourse F will change that,

There could be some movement available in ATL. With F opening ALL DL intl will move to E/F (eg, CUN, PUJ, etc) will move to E and not depart from T-D anymore.
My comments/opinions are my own and are not to be construed as the opinion(s) of my employer.
 
SJUSXM
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RE: Virgin America To Announce A New City.

Tue Jan 17, 2012 5:35 pm

So much for AA doing LAX-PHL now. ugh
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Indy
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RE: Virgin America To Announce A New City.

Tue Jan 17, 2012 5:45 pm

Quoting jfklganyc (Reply 55):

The system they have in place is not working and will not work with $100 a barrel oil and stiff competition.

Their system can work just as well as anyones at $100. In fact I would go so far as to say because of their superior product they could raise fares and keep passengers before a no frills carrier. And competition? Who is their competition? Is it fare to call a no frills carrier a true competitor with a full service carrier like VX? That would be like comparing a fine dining restaurant with McDonalds. The only thing they would have in common is that they both sold food. I would say that generally speaking Joe Cheapskate and Emma Pennypincher aren't flying VX. The typical VX passenger isn't going to switch to US because US is $5 cheaper. Just like someone who enjoys fine dining isn't going to switch to McDonalds because the food is cheaper. These are people who are willing to pay more for the better product. So I say for now that VX doesn't have true competition in the sense that they are pretty much alone when it comes to their service level. They may however have a smaller customer base to pull from than the no frills carrier who has plenty of lower dollar passengers to choose from.
Indy = Indianapolis and not Independence Air
 
GSPSPOT
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RE: Virgin America To Announce A New City.

Tue Jan 17, 2012 5:56 pm

Quoting b727fa (Reply 59):
There could be some movement available in ATL. With F opening ALL DL intl will move to E/F (eg, CUN, PUJ, etc) will move to E and not depart from T-D anymore.

It WOULD be nice to see them start service on some different types of routes, to cities that aren't "the usual suspects". They need to show the Southeast some love!
Great Lakes, great life.
 
yeelep
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RE: Virgin America To Announce A New City.

Tue Jan 17, 2012 6:07 pm

Quoting Indy (Reply 61):

If what you say is true, they would be able to charge enough to make money. They don't because they can't.
 
hiflyeras
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RE: Virgin America To Announce A New City.

Tue Jan 17, 2012 6:21 pm

Quoting Indy (Reply 61):
hese are people who are willing to pay more for the better product.

Studies show that that is just not true. Look at the Expedia or Orbitz website....who's flights get listed first? The ones that are the cheapest. That is ALL the vast majority of leisure travels care about....price. $5 less and they'll book that airline's flight.

And when it comes to business travelers, they're looking for the airline that they can get the easiest upgrade on. VX is stingy with their tiny FC cabin...no upgrades for anyone, period. Joe Roadwarrior will stick with US, UA, DL or AA if he can get an upgrade or bonus miles as an elite-level flyer. Not even to mention corporate accounts that require they stick with a particular carrier.

Yes, it might be easy pickings going against US but only to a point...and VX will probably be operating at a loss just like on the rest of their routes. They undercut their competition to gain market share and burn more of their investor's cash. Fuel cost is supposedly going no where but up in 2012. How long can this continue?

http://money.cnn.com/2012/01/16/markets/gas_prices/index.htm
 
boilerla
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RE: Virgin America To Announce A New City.

Tue Jan 17, 2012 6:49 pm

I don't think this will hurt UA at all since they just code-share the flight with US. UA dropped this route last summer IIRC. If anybody it'll hit US the most, but most of their O&D comes from the PHL side I imagine, and from UA's codeshare on the LAX/SFO side.

It's also not a very high margin route. Fares can be had for less than $300 R/T. For a transcon, that's a steal. Compare that to the UA LAX-IAD flights that are around $50+ more expensive, for a flight that is also a transcon.

I hope VX has some success on the route but they really should try something that is going to make them more than a couple bucks per pax, especially with fuel expected to go up even more this year.

My coworker flies this route pretty frequently to visit family in PA. But since he normally flies out of SNA on UA (thu ORD), I wondered if he'd take it. He said "maybe...depends how much it costs I guess".
 
usairways85
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RE: Virgin America To Announce A New City.

Tue Jan 17, 2012 7:22 pm

Quoting SJUSXM (Reply 60):
So much for AA doing LAX-PHL now. ugh

I think that shot went out the window when DL announced LAX-PHL

Correct me if I am wrong but I believe UA LAX-PHL was only a seasonal suspension and not a complete cancellation. Should be interesting if they decide to just give it up to US codeshares.


I really hope VX does well on these routes as PHL could sure use some more options especially out west. I think their 3x and 2x schedule should do well (rather than DL's 5x weekly attempt at serving LAX-PHL)
 
Indy
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RE: Virgin America To Announce A New City.

Tue Jan 17, 2012 8:59 pm

Quoting HiFlyerAS (Reply 64):
Studies show that that is just not true. Look at the Expedia or Orbitz website....who's flights get listed first? The ones that are the cheapest. That is ALL the vast majority of leisure travels care about....price. $5 less and they'll book that airline's flight.

So you say that people are not willing to spend more for a better product? That is a bold and very incorrect statement. People are absolutely willing to pay more for better quality. That is the very reason premium brands exist in all areas of business. If what you said were true then we wouldn't have things like custom homes, luxury cars, fine dining, high end retail, etc. Using sites like Expedia and Orbitz is a really bad example as those sites were designed specifically to cater to people who are cheap. Their target audience are those who would change airlines to save a couple of dollars. You have to know your target audience and lets face it people who shop Expedia, Orbitz, Travelocity and sites of that sort are not the VX target audience.

Quoting yeelep (Reply 63):
If what you say is true, they would be able to charge enough to make money. They don't because they can't.

You are overlooking the fact that there is a great deal of expense related to starting up a new company. It is very common for new businesses to lose money for an extended period of time. You cannot expect to pass all those startup costs to customers in the first few years. Your product, no matter how good, would be prohibitively expensive. While people do pay more for better quality products they also don't expect to get ripped off. If VX or any other business tried to price a product high enough to make a profit from day one they'd run their customers off. This is true for an airline, car dealer, restaurant, retail outlet, etc.
Indy = Indianapolis and not Independence Air
 
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Polot
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RE: Virgin America To Announce A New City.

Tue Jan 17, 2012 9:05 pm

Quoting Indy (Reply 67):
You are overlooking the fact that there is a great deal of expense related to starting up a new company. It is very common for new businesses to lose money for an extended period of time. You cannot expect to pass all those startup costs to customers in the first few years. Your product, no matter how good, would be prohibitively expensive.

VX is over 4 years old...time is running out on the "I'm just a start-up" card.
 
steeler83
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RE: Virgin America To Announce A New City.

Tue Jan 17, 2012 9:23 pm

Quoting PHLBOS (Reply 57):
A twist from an old AA slogan.

It's good to see another carrier come to PHL.

My wife told me about VX coming to PHL. We plan on visiting So-Cal some time late this comming Summer. Good to know VX is an option!
Do not bring stranger girt into your room. The stranger girt is dangerous, it will hurt your life.
 
kamboi
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RE: Virgin America To Announce A New City.

Tue Jan 17, 2012 9:23 pm

I got an e-mail from VX, saying it's PHL and offering starting fares.
 
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LAXintl
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RE: Virgin America To Announce A New City.

Tue Jan 17, 2012 9:44 pm

Quoting poLOT (Reply 68):
VX is over 4 years old...time is running out on the "I'm just a start-up" card.

Well in reality they will continue to be the upstart for quite a few more years -- they have lots of growth ahead of them with 75 odd planes on the way.


If you go back and read stories, you can see references to JetBlue as an upstart as late as 2010, 10-years after they opened their doors.

This industry has a long gestation period - and new airline such as JetBlue or Virgin America will be in an upstart mode - hiring, taking delivery of new aircraft, opening new stations for long period before reaching their intended critical mass.
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
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Polot
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RE: Virgin America To Announce A New City.

Tue Jan 17, 2012 9:53 pm

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 71):
If you go back and read stories, you can see references to JetBlue as an upstart as late as 2010, 10-years after they opened their doors.

This industry has a long gestation period - and new airline such as JetBlue or Virgin America will be in an upstart mode - hiring, taking delivery of new aircraft, opening new stations for long period before reaching their intended critical mass.

The difference if that JetBlue was profitable for most of that time. In fact I believe it made a profit in 2001, only its 2nd year in operations. The point I was trying to make is that VX can't continue to lose money and just have it excused as "start-up costs". Eventually even start ups and up-and-comers need (and are expected) to start being profitable or they will just dig themselves into a hole as they try and grow in order to service their debts, instead of just servicing the cost of their expansion.
 
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LAXintl
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RE: Virgin America To Announce A New City.

Tue Jan 17, 2012 10:02 pm

Well when cost curve is indeed being driven by start-up and growth expenses, I don't see the point not calling them "start-up cost".

Its really no different then other industries, whether new restaurant franchises, warehouse stores etc. There could be multi-year period when the cost of expansion is greater than the revenue such new assets produce. Personally I'd say JetBlue's experience was out of the norm during a period even well established peers across the globe were loosing money.

Anyhow - as long as investors are onboard, or new venture capital can be generated to fund the planed expansion of the enterprise no big problem. We still have well liked companies like Twitter, Skype, GoGo, that have yet to turn a profit.
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
atrude777
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RE: Virgin America To Announce A New City.

Tue Jan 17, 2012 10:12 pm

Interesting Video Announcement from Virgin America!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7PmPN...e=g-u&context=G2d3f853FUAAAAAAABAA

Alex
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hiflyeras
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RE: Virgin America To Announce A New City.

Tue Jan 17, 2012 10:23 pm

Quoting Indy (Reply 67):
So you say that people are not willing to spend more for a better product? That is a bold and very incorrect statement. People are absolutely willing to pay more for better quality. That is the very reason premium brands exist in all areas of business.

With one exception...AIRLINES. The airline industry is littered with the carcasses of attempts to provide a high end, premium product. L'Avion, MaxJet, EOS, SilverJet, MGM Grand, etc. There is a reason that all airlines, especially U.S. airlines, are basically the same. They all have to charge the same fares to attract business and those that offer 'more' have higher CASM, hence lower profits when their RASM is essentially the same as the other guy.

Quoting Indy (Reply 67):
If what you said were true then we wouldn't have things like custom homes, luxury cars, fine dining, high end retail, etc.

What percentage of the population can afford these things? A very small percentage. It's been shown time and time again that a commercial carrier offering a 'premium product' will not succeed. If I can afford a Lamborghini then it's doubtful I'm flying commercial...I'm flying on NetJet or own my own private aircraft.

Quoting Indy (Reply 67):
people who shop Expedia, Orbitz, Travelocity and sites of that sort are not the VX target audience.

Lucky for VX you're not running the airline. I'm sure that a major percentage of their revenue comes from these distributors.
 
hiflyeras
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RE: Virgin America To Announce A New City.

Tue Jan 17, 2012 10:43 pm

Excellent article on VX after their 3rd quarter 2011 earnings were announced:

http://www.centreforaviation.com/ana...2012-but-still-breaking-even-65342
 
Jetmarc
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RE: Virgin America To Announce A New City.

Tue Jan 17, 2012 10:54 pm

Quoting atrude777 (Reply 74):
Interesting Video Announcement from Virgin America!

Uh, gross. Were they trying to advertise PHL or every conture of the dancer's body, junk, and backside? JetBlue used "blue people" like that at their IPO, but at least they had boxers on. Goofy, sure. Gross and terribly low budget, you bet'cha.
"Sucka, I'm gonna send you out on Knuckle Airlines. Fist Class!!" ~ Mr. T
 
Jetmarc
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RE: Virgin America To Announce A New City.

Tue Jan 17, 2012 11:11 pm

Quoting HiFlyerAS (Reply 76):
Excellent article on VX after their 3rd quarter 2011 earnings were announced:

http://www.centreforaviation.com/ana...65342

WOW. $664.7 million since they started... Hang in there VX, if AA pulled it off that long, so can you! (please note sarcasm).
"Sucka, I'm gonna send you out on Knuckle Airlines. Fist Class!!" ~ Mr. T
 
hiflyeras
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RE: Virgin America To Announce A New City.

Wed Jan 18, 2012 1:04 am

Quoting jetMARC (Reply 78):
WOW. $664.7 million since they started...

Yep, apparently over 1/2 a BILLION dollars U.S. down the toilet.
 
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LAXintl
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RE: Virgin America To Announce A New City.

Wed Jan 18, 2012 1:15 am

Quoting HiFlyerAS (Reply 79):
Yep, apparently over 1/2 a BILLION dollars U.S. down the toilet.

I'm not sure why you associate an investment, with flushing money down a toilet.

There are hundreds if not thousand of new companies launched in America every year. Virtually all including huge names like Google take years if not even a decade to turn their first profit.


I don't know a single venture capitalist that looks to return their money overnight - things take time, and people if they comfortable with a companies business plan understand the long term horizon, particularly if plans call for long periods of expansion which often by their nature are capital intensive.


Now if you want to flush money down a toilet with potential instant gratification suggest a visit to Vegas, but not investing in an upstart business enterprise.
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
jetsetter629
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RE: Virgin America To Announce A New City.

Wed Jan 18, 2012 1:34 am

Quoting jetMARC (Reply 77):
Uh, gross. Were they trying to advertise PHL or every conture of the dancer's body, junk, and backside? JetBlue used "blue people" like that at their IPO, but at least they had boxers on. Goofy, sure. Gross and terribly low budget, you bet'cha.

It's a spoof of the very popular show on FX called "It's Always Sunny in Philadelphia" with Danny DeVito. That is "Green Man"!
 
hiflyeras
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RE: Virgin America To Announce A New City.

Wed Jan 18, 2012 2:19 am

Can anyone tell me how many of VX's aircraft are 'owned' and how many are leased?
 
olddominion727
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RE: Virgin America To Announce A New City.

Wed Jan 18, 2012 2:22 am

Quoting BoeingGuy (Reply 10):

SJC has my vote too, SNA or DEN also, wait... PDX service to LAX/SFO/LAS/JFK/IAD... they'd kill AS & UA
 
FreequentFlier
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RE: Virgin America To Announce A New City.

Wed Jan 18, 2012 2:24 am

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 80):
I'm not sure why you associate an investment, with flushing money down a toilet.

There are hundreds if not thousand of new companies launched in America every year. Virtually all including huge names like Google take years if not even a decade to turn their first profit.


I don't know a single venture capitalist that looks to return their money overnight - things take time, and people if they comfortable with a companies business plan understand the long term horizon, particularly if plans call for long periods of expansion which often by their nature are capital intensive.


Now if you want to flush money down a toilet with potential instant gratification suggest a visit to Vegas, but not investing in an upstart business enterprise.

The reality is that VX would have been folded up long ago if it didn't have "Virgin" in its name. That's actually a credit to Richard Branson, who has convinced investors to throw money at an airline that has had one quarter of profitability in four years, and isn't on the verge of profitability anytime soon. But let's not pretend Virgin America has proven itself a viable business - it's been a failure by any objective analysis thus far. Each and every year the airline predicts profitability the following year, and each and every year it has been wrong.
 
Jetmarc
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RE: Virgin America To Announce A New City.

Wed Jan 18, 2012 2:28 am

Quoting jetsetter629 (Reply 81):
It's a spoof of the very popular show on FX called "It's Always Sunny in Philadelphia" with Danny DeVito. That is "Green Man"!

Guess it would be funny if I knew about it... but I wonder how popular Green Man really is. If people are unable to link the VX promo with him, then I wonder what their reaction is. All I saw were green cheeks and a mushroom stamp!
"Sucka, I'm gonna send you out on Knuckle Airlines. Fist Class!!" ~ Mr. T
 
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mariner
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RE: Virgin America To Announce A New City.

Wed Jan 18, 2012 3:08 am

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 80):
There are hundreds if not thousand of new companies launched in America every year. Virtually all including huge names like Google take years if not even a decade to turn their first profit.

And a very high percentage of those companies never turn a profit - many of of them go under. How many tech companies - which had never turned a profit - went bust in the dot com bubble, despite having been some of the highest fliers on the market. CMGI would have made me a bundle if I'd cashed in at the high instead of getting greedy and waiting. LOL.

In my business, it is believed that angels need to invest in ten projects, based on the rule of thumb that one will go gangbusters and cover their losses on all the others.

Still, essentially, I agree with you. If the investors at Virgin America are happy with the balance sheet and the projections - its their money.

That's capitalism.  Smile

mariner

[Edited 2012-01-17 19:10:31]
aeternum nauta
 
Indy
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RE: Virgin America To Announce A New City.

Wed Jan 18, 2012 4:01 am

Quoting HiFlyerAS (Reply 75):
With one exception...AIRLINES. The airline industry is littered with the carcasses of attempts to provide a high end, premium product. L'Avion, MaxJet, EOS, SilverJet, MGM Grand, etc.

And there is a significantly larger list of mainstream and low fare carriers that have failed. So that argument doesn't fly. No pun intended. Ok.. maybe pun intended.  
Quoting HiFlyerAS (Reply 75):
Lucky for VX you're not running the airline. I'm sure that a major percentage of their revenue comes from these distributors.

Sounds like wild speculation to me.
Indy = Indianapolis and not Independence Air
 
hiflyeras
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RE: Virgin America To Announce A New City.

Wed Jan 18, 2012 4:19 am

Quoting Indy (Reply 87):
Sounds like wild speculation to me.

According to this article in the New York Times from one year ago, on-line travel agencies accounted for approximately 17% of AA's total ticket sales. I would imagine it's a comparable amount for all airlines.

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/01/05/bu...3&pagewanted=1&partner=rss&emc=rss
 
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SANFan
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RE: Virgin America To Announce A New City.

Wed Jan 18, 2012 4:45 am

Quoting olddominion727 (Reply 83):
SJC has my vote too, SNA or DEN also, wait... PDX service to LAX/SFO/LAS/JFK/IAD... they'd kill AS & UA

Ummmm.... Virgin has already started, and shortly thereafter, ended service at SNA (4/2009 to 5/2010.)

You might want to take a look at the VX Route Map before bothering to hope for 5 or more routes from PDX.

bb
 
phlwok
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RE: Virgin America To Announce A New City.

Wed Jan 18, 2012 5:40 am

Quoting jfklganyc (Reply 55):
I am a Virgin fan. But "doing what they do best" is not how I would describe what they do.

They lose $$. A lot of it. And while I am glad to see them expand, they need to expose themselves less to low yielding leisure fares (which is what they get) on gas guzzling transcons.

The system they have in place is not working and will not work with $100 a barrel oil and stiff competition.

And in spite of all their losses, they're entering markets with long stage lengths (2,401 miles on PHL-LAX and 2,521 miles on PHL-SFO) in a high fuel cost environment with stiff competition. Taking Thursday, June 7th as a summer high season sample, here are the currently scheduled flights on PHL-LAX:

[KVS Availability Tool 6.8.1/Diamond - Sabre: Availability/FS/US]

PHL Philadelphia Metro / Intl PA US = PHL TTN [KPHL]
LAX Los Angeles Intl CA US [KLAX]
THU 07 Jun 2012

Carrier Flight From Depart To Arrive A/C
--------- ------ ---- -------- ---- -------- ---
VX 121 PHL 07:00 LAX 09:55 320
US 797 PHL 07:40 LAX 10:50 321
US 1403 PHL 09:45 LAX 12:50 321
VX 125 PHL 11:25 LAX 14:25 320
US 1405 PHL 13:45 LAX 16:50 321
US 711 PHL 16:05 LAX 19:14 321
US 701 PHL 17:55 LAX 21:06 321
DL 1243 PHL 17:55 LAX 21:19 73H
UA 849 PHL 18:25 LAX 21:14 319
VX 127 PHL 20:05 LAX 22:55 320
US 1409 PHL 20:30 LAX 23:35 321

And on PHL-SFO:

[KVS Availability Tool 6.8.1/Diamond - Sabre: Availability/FS/US]

PHL Philadelphia Metro / Intl PA US = PHL TTN [KPHL]
SFO San Francisco Intl CA US [KSFO]
THU 07 Jun 2012

Carrier Flight From Depart To Arrive A/C
--------- ------ ---- -------- ---- -------- ---
UA 445 PHL 07:00 SFO 09:58 319
US 657 PHL 07:40 SFO 11:06 320
VX 137 PHL 08:35 SFO 11:55 320
US 967 PHL 09:40 SFO 13:05 320
US 961 PHL 13:40 SFO 17:05 321
US 969 PHL 15:55 SFO 19:20 321
VX 141 PHL 17:50 SFO 21:10 320
US 709 PHL 17:50 SFO 21:16 321
UA 447 PHL 18:20 SFO 21:44 319

That's a fair number of nonstops by VX's competitors, and it wouldn't surprise me to see US add another flight or two in each market to compete as a reaction. The schedule by US - right down to the flight numbers - is pretty much what they flew last summer.

Also, one round trip will tie an aircraft up for roughly 12 or more hours as it needs to fly around 5,000 miles plus ground time. It would seem that VX could generate more cash by flying greater numbers of shorter length flights out West rather than try something like this. Don't get me wrong - I like the competition and what it may at least temporarily do to fares - but I don't believe moves like this to be good right now for VX. The bigger carriers have routes where they can get more revenue per mile on shorter routes, and subsidize competitive longer, lower revenue routes. VX doesn't yet seem to have those yet - I doubt BZN is part of the answer for that either - but unless they can find some higher revenue routes I suspect they're not long for this world.

Quoting PHLBOS (Reply 57):
The success of VX's PHL-LAX/SFO routes could very well be determined by West Coast flyers making the choice.

I agree. I fly US and UA a lot from PHL to the West Coast, usually about 20-30 times per year, and between this schedule and the FF programs in Star, there's really no reason for me to fly VX. Picking July 12-13 to do a quick fare check for a one day trip, I see $480 for nonrefundable coach and $2080 for nonrefundable first (post-tax) so at least they're not pricing too terribly low here. US is charging $551 post-tax in nonrefundable Y and $1928 in nonrefundable F on the same dates. VX has a superior on board product, but US has a superior schedule.

Philly - California flights are really busy in the summer, much less so other times of the year, and the schedules reflect it. I'll bet everyone gets good loads this summer. Whether anyone flying the LAX and SFO routes makes any profit is a completely different matter. And VX may really bleed cash on these routes in the off season.
 
commavia
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Joined: Mon Apr 25, 2005 2:30 am

RE: Virgin America To Announce A New City.

Thu Jan 19, 2012 1:53 am

I heard Dave Cush (Virgin America CEO) say today that Virgin announced Philadelphia as its second choice because it couldn't get access to its first choice, Newark, after United acted to keep Virgin out by buying up unused Newark slots despite not using all of the slots it already holds.

On some other topics, with regard to expansion in general and D/FW in particular, he stated that Virgin's primary focus area for growth going forward would be LAX and San Francisco, with new routes and additional frequencies tied to those two markets. In response to a question about whether Virgin would add flights eastward from D/FW, he said probably not any time soon.

Intriguingly, he also said that he expected it was quite possible that at some point in the next year or so Virgin may have a frequent flyer agreement with one of the major U.S. network airlines. He of course didn't mention any names, but said the idea was being actively discussed within Virgin. Pure speculation on my part: but I think Delta makes the most sense if they are to have a frequent flyer tie-up in the future.

True story.
 
User avatar
LAXintl
Posts: 24816
Joined: Wed May 24, 2000 12:12 pm

RE: Virgin America To Announce A New City.

Thu Jan 19, 2012 4:57 am

Interview with Dave Cush.

Mentioned reasons VX chose PHL.


"In Philadelphia, we saw two things that were particularly attractive," said Virgin America president and CEO David Cush. "One was high ticket prices, which generally when we come in drop quite a bit.

"Second, about half the travelers going between Philadelphia and San Francisco and Los Angeles fly nonstop. The other half connect through other cities, like Chicago or Dallas-Fort Worth.

"That tells us that it is an underserved market. People are connecting because there are not enough nonstop seats on the route."

Cush said Philadelphia had "strong business and leisure travel connections" to California in higher education, finance, biotechnology, and pharmaceuticals. "There are ties between our regions that can be further developed."



Full article
http://www.philly.com/philly/business/137539608.html?cmpid=15585797
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
slcdeltarumd11
Posts: 4851
Joined: Fri Jan 09, 2004 7:30 am

RE: Virgin America To Announce A New City.

Sun Jan 22, 2012 8:06 am

How long will Deltas less than daily attempt at PHL-LAX last now? I see more DL quick LAX withdrawl in the future. Anyone think Delta really has a long term chance of surivival on the route now? VX is gonna be 3x daily with an awesome product. The only chance i can see is if US can run them out of town quickly but i think that might be tough

The market is gonna have an airline with 3x daily for the "anything but US" people now.
 
olddominion727
Posts: 465
Joined: Mon Jan 02, 2012 8:16 pm

RE: Virgin America To Announce A New City.

Sun Jan 22, 2012 10:23 am

I hope PHX. But my gut says ATL or PHL
 
slcdeltarumd11
Posts: 4851
Joined: Fri Jan 09, 2004 7:30 am

RE: Virgin America To Announce A New City.

Sun Jan 22, 2012 11:34 am

Quoting olddominion727 (Reply 94):
I hope PHX. But my gut says ATL or PHL

Your gut is correct  
PHL has already been announced 3x daily to LAX and 2x to SFO. I think PHL makes the most sense right now to at least give a shot. They can kick Delta off the LAX route probably easily, there product is light years ahead of US, and there is probably a good amount of people who dont care about US miles or who would prefer not to fly them.

I heard that VX was crunching numbers on all DEN, SLC and PHX on your other guess. All tough markets but if launched together might be able to get them more of FF base out West? Number crunching doesnt mean reality though and im guessing they wont like the analysis they get as we can all guess. The only good thing is low plane use time and new cities and low risk of loosing alot. After seeing DL retaliate so quickly on US CLT-SLC they might also realize they would face some pressure on SLC, and we all know DEN is low fare heaven no high last minute fares there thats for sure and the competition from all three is huge.

I know nothing about the demand for F seats in this market but im sure there is some i just dont know how many? VX first class seats and service are gonna be light years ahead of the competition in every way. Can you see anyone actually cash paying for Delta, UA, or US first class seat when VX is so much nicer and has good frequency too. VX first class is actually really nice i cant see them not stealing the premium market easily on those routes especially given the distance.
 
twinotter
Posts: 253
Joined: Sun Oct 17, 2004 3:13 am

RE: Virgin America To Announce A New City.

Sun Jan 22, 2012 11:55 am

Quoting slcdeltarumd11 (Reply 95):
VX first class seats and service are gonna be light years ahead of the competition in every way. Can you see anyone actually cash paying for Delta, UA, or US first class seat when VX is so much nicer

Corporate travel departments don't care how nice or cool the cabin is. Corporations use majors for ability to reschedule during irregular operations.
 
SurfandSnow
Posts: 1591
Joined: Sun Feb 01, 2009 7:09 am

RE: Virgin America To Announce A New City.

Sun Jan 22, 2012 12:14 pm

Quoting slcdeltarumd11 (Reply 93):
How long will Deltas less than daily attempt at PHL-LAX last now? I see more DL quick LAX withdrawl in the future. Anyone think Delta really has a long term chance of surivival on the route now? VX is gonna be 3x daily with an awesome product. The only chance i can see is if US can run them out of town quickly but i think that might be tough

I wouldn't put it past DL to stick with the LAX-PHL route. They certainly aren't afraid to compete at LAX (what with recent additions like LAX-OAK, LAX-PHX, and LAX-MCI), and seem much more committed to the market than in years past. For instance, they stayed strong on the LAX-MCO route after VX started it, and didn't give up on LAX-MSY after WN resumed it.

Don't forget that LAX-PHL had three nonstop operators just a few years ago, when UA, US, and WN were all flying the route. WN dropped the route in conjunction with a massive reduction in transcon flying and then went on to drastically reduce their entire PHL operation, UA dropped it in favor of codesharing with their alliance partner (just like they had dropped their own LAX-EWR flights a few years ago). DL saw an opportunity to restore competition, and it certainly isn't inconceivable that three carriers can fly it simultaneously.

As for US "running them out of town quickly", I wouldn't count on that happening. People thought the same thing when VX entered AA's home turf at DFW, but guess what? AA is now bankrupt, VX is increasing flights and market share. VX has plenty of experience with intense competition and marching right into other carrier's fortress hubs, PHL will simply be the latest chapter in their Competition 101 novel:

It started something like this, with entry to SFO, LAX, and JFK on 8/8/07
- A direct challenge to UA and AA on their prime transcon routes
- Entry to a UA fortress hub at SFO and also UA's major LAX hub
- Entry to key AA hubs/focus cities (whatever they were at the time) at both JFK and LAX
- Entry to key DL hubs/focus cities (whatever they were at the time) at both JFK and LAX
- An indirect challenge to B6's popular JFK-California flights, which at the time were using alternate Bay Area and LA area airports. B6 responded by starting service to SFO and LAX.
- An indirect challenge to WN's massive Bay Area-LA operation. WN responded by restoring service to SFO.

From day one, VX incited the wrath of the nation's three largest legacy carriers as well as the two most respected, well-capitalized LCCs. Their first three routes (SFO-JFK, LAX-JFK, and SFO-LAX) are perhaps the most competitive in the country, with no less than five nonstop carriers on each of them since VX's inception.

Sparing you all the details, they have since challenged the likes of AS on SEA-LAX (something even WN hasn't been bold enough to do), added highly competitive routes served by numerous airlines like JFK-LAS and LAX-MCO, and stood strong on vastly overserved legacy hub-hub routes like SFO-ORD, LAX-DFW, etc.

Quoting slcdeltarumd11 (Reply 93):

The market is gonna have an airline with 3x daily for the "anything but US" people now.

US deploys their fresh new A321s on virtually all PHL-LAX/SFO flights now. They offer wifi and BOB service, so if you can deal without the PTV entertainment it's virtually the same.
Flying in the middle seat of coach is much better than not flying at all!
 
slcdeltarumd11
Posts: 4851
Joined: Fri Jan 09, 2004 7:30 am

RE: Virgin America To Announce A New City.

Sun Jan 22, 2012 1:02 pm

Quoting SurfandSnow (Reply 97):
As for US "running them out of town quickly", I wouldn't count on that happening

I definitely agree. I think that is why they selected PHL. I was just saying i think thats Deltas best chance of long term survival on this route. You might be right maybe Delta will keep flying it but its gonna be really tough. If they are serious they should make it daily and a non-red eye return i would think. Just for comparison AAs EWR-LAX survives on 1x daily against UA because it is timed at the ideal business traveler times so it works for alot of people despite such low frequency.

[Edited 2012-01-22 05:23:26]
 
atrude777
Posts: 4424
Joined: Wed Aug 13, 2003 11:23 pm

RE: Virgin America To Announce A New City.

Sun Jan 22, 2012 2:35 pm

Quoting SurfandSnow (Reply 97):
Don't forget that LAX-PHL had three nonstop operators just a few years ago, when UA, US, and WN were all flying the route.

Add Frontier Airlines to that list..

Frontier will also fly its first-ever transcontinental flight this Sunday between Los Angeles International Airport (LAX) and Philadelphia.

It has since been dropped but WN and F9 were both flying PHL-LAX along with US and UA too.

http://media.frontierairlines.com/article_display.cfm?article_id=4495


Quoting SurfandSnow (Reply 97):
- An indirect challenge to WN's massive Bay Area-LA operation. WN responded by restoring service to SFO.

To which Virgin was forced to drop a route and city--SNA. Whether SWA beat Virgin we can't say, but Virgin was not able to penetrate the Bay Area to LA Operation as well as they hoped. They only fly SFO-SAN/LAX, SNA for whatever odd reason did not work for them.

The same goes for YVR which Virgin America also had to drop.

Virgin HAS been chased out, make no mistae, out of two airports. Will it happen to PHL, doubt it, but they said the same for SNA and YVR.

Alex
Good things come to those who wait, better things come to those who go AFTER it!

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