Moderators: jsumali2, richierich, ua900, PanAm_DC10, hOMSaR

 
User avatar
BoeingVista
Topic Author
Posts: 2072
Joined: Mon Jan 12, 2009 9:54 am

787 Achieves 96.3% Dispatch Reliability

Sat Jan 14, 2012 1:20 pm

Quote:
After two and a half months of scheduled service, All Nippon Airways' (ANA) Boeing 787 fleet has achieved a dispatch reliability of 96.3% as it plans to expand Japanese domestic operations and begin its first scheduled international routes.

ANA entered the 787 into regular service on Japanese domestic routes on 1 November and have operated two 80-90min flights each day.

The reliability of the first two 787s delivered in September and October 2011, and joined by a third on 4 January, nearly matches the ANA group-wide fleet reliability of 96.5%.

96.3%, not bad but not great either.

http://www.flightglobal.com/news/art...s-963-dispatch-reliability-366915/
BV
 
sofianec
Posts: 171
Joined: Thu Aug 30, 2007 6:39 am

RE: 787 Achieves 96.3% Dispatch Reliability

Sat Jan 14, 2012 1:30 pm

Not bad at all. In time and with more frames entering the fleet dispatch reliability numbers will go up. Sample of 2 frames is very low therefore 96.3% is quite good.

---
A350WARP
 
delimit
Posts: 840
Joined: Fri Jan 09, 2009 8:08 pm

RE: 787 Achieves 96.3% Dispatch Reliability

Sat Jan 14, 2012 1:38 pm

It's a new type and the planes ANA are flying are some of the first delivered.Its dispatch rate is going to be lower as a result for a bit. I see those numbers as quate good given the above.
 
skymiler
Posts: 332
Joined: Fri Aug 03, 2007 5:00 am

RE: 787 Achieves 96.3% Dispatch Reliability

Sat Jan 14, 2012 1:42 pm

Exactly how is dispatch reliability calculated? Leaving gate within 15 min of schedule if an mx item is encountered?

Would be very interested to know ...
I love to fly, and it shows!
 
B738FlyUIA
Posts: 398
Joined: Wed Dec 16, 2009 4:20 pm

RE: 787 Achieves 96.3% Dispatch Reliability

Sat Jan 14, 2012 1:43 pm

Quoting sofianec (Reply 1):

Not bad at all. In time and with more frames entering the fleet dispatch reliability numbers will go up. Sample of 2 frames is very low therefore 96.3% is quite good.

Find this a very good result... Will be interesting to see how it will be after the 20th January when they start the Route to FRA!!! But I think with the experience they gathered will be very much the same... I wish for the ANA Group on this way just simply the best with a wonderful aircraft!!!!!!
 
User avatar
Stitch
Posts: 27643
Joined: Wed Jul 06, 2005 4:26 am

RE: 787 Achieves 96.3% Dispatch Reliability

Sat Jan 14, 2012 1:52 pm

Quoting BoeingVista (Thread starter):
96.3%, not bad but not great either.

It's as good as every other type in their fleet. *shrug*
 
sofianec
Posts: 171
Joined: Thu Aug 30, 2007 6:39 am

RE: 787 Achieves 96.3% Dispatch Reliability

Sat Jan 14, 2012 2:07 pm

Quoting B738FlyUIA (Reply 4):
Find this a very good result... Will be interesting to see how it will be after the 20th January when they start the Route to FRA!!! But I think with the experience they gathered will be very much the same... I wish for the ANA Group on this way just simply the best with a wonderful aircraft!!!!!!

For a completely new type and with 2 frames I would say 96.3% is outstanding. I too wish ANA all the best as I hope to try the 787 on their FRA-TYO run in 2 months. Seating density is outstanding.

---
A350WARP
 
B738FlyUIA
Posts: 398
Joined: Wed Dec 16, 2009 4:20 pm

RE: 787 Achieves 96.3% Dispatch Reliability

Sat Jan 14, 2012 2:18 pm

Quoting sofianec (Reply 6):
For a completely new type and with 2 frames I would say 96.3% is outstanding. I too wish ANA all the best as I hope to try the 787 on their FRA-TYO run in 2 months. Seating density is outstanding.

There will be about 3-5 frames if I understand from delivery!!!
 
Clydenairways
Posts: 1361
Joined: Thu Jan 11, 2007 8:27 am

RE: 787 Achieves 96.3% Dispatch Reliability

Sat Jan 14, 2012 2:39 pm

Quoting skymiler (Reply 3):
Exactly how is dispatch reliability calculated? Leaving gate within 15 min of schedule if an mx item is encountered?

Would be very interested to know ...

I always thought it was a measure of flights that actually departed on the scheduled aircraft. Not delays as such. Cancelled flights and Aircraft changes due technical would change reliability.

Dispatch reliability is normally over 99% so i wouldn't think 15min mechanical delays are counted, then i'd expect the number to be lower.
 
User avatar
BoeingVista
Topic Author
Posts: 2072
Joined: Mon Jan 12, 2009 9:54 am

RE: 787 Achieves 96.3% Dispatch Reliability

Sat Jan 14, 2012 2:47 pm

Quoting Stitch (Reply 5):
It's as good as every other type in their fleet. *shrug*

No, it's as good as the average of their fleet, totally different. ANA has 77W's which are probably punching in 99% and 744's which we imagine are less reliable because of age.

Two aircraft is a small sample size and 80-90 minutes flights is not representative of what the 787 was designed to do still, its a fair start.

[Edited 2012-01-14 06:47:29]

[Edited 2012-01-14 07:05:12]
BV
 
GCPET
Posts: 202
Joined: Fri Jan 13, 2012 12:43 pm

RE: 787 Achieves 96.3% Dispatch Reliability

Sat Jan 14, 2012 2:55 pm

I don't think 96.3% is that bad to be honest, I guess there is room for improvement.

GCPET
If it's not Boeing, I'm not going!
 
Tristarsteve
Posts: 3695
Joined: Tue Nov 22, 2005 11:04 pm

RE: 787 Achieves 96.3% Dispatch Reliability

Sat Jan 14, 2012 5:30 pm

Quoting skymiler (Reply 3):
Exactly how is dispatch reliability calculated? Leaving gate within 15 min of schedule if an mx item is encountered?

Very good question. Really depends on the airline. We use late as meaning late. i.e. one minute late due to an engineering reason is one delay. One delay in 100 flights is 99pc delay rate.
Some airlines use 15 mins before the delay.
But for a new aircraft, with long turnround times, and only two flights a day, it should be better.
One problem with a new type is that the MEL is very limited.
But we use reliability as a word to mean flights completed. i.e. 99pc reliability means only one flight cancelled out of 100.
So i find this figure difficult to grasp.
 
a380900
Posts: 805
Joined: Fri Dec 05, 2003 11:26 pm

RE: 787 Achieves 96.3% Dispatch Reliability

Sat Jan 14, 2012 5:32 pm

Big problem is how many rotations a day if they are on such short route. Maybe ANA did not set the bar too high to be sure the results would be good.

I mean what does dispatch reliability mean if the planes are flying 3 hours a day instead on 16 on normal service?

This is all experimental. It does not mean much. What we need is a comparison between A330, 767, 787 on the same segments over a longer period.

This figure is irrelevant. 787 is still in "experimental" mode, even if they have been delivered to ANA.
 
moderators
Moderator
Posts: 365
Joined: Thu Apr 29, 2004 6:33 am

RE: 787 Achieves 96.3% Dispatch Reliability

Sat Jan 14, 2012 6:07 pm

Dear Members,

The moderators realize the need for members to draw comparisons with regards to dispatch reliability between different planes. Inevitably this will lead to discussions between the A380 and the B787 in this thread.

Please make sure to keep the airliners.net forum rules in mind and please steer clear from any off-topic Airbus versus Boeing flamebaiting or rhetoric. Any posts found to be in violation of the forum rules-and regulation will be removed and memberships may possibly be suspended.

We sincerely thank you for your co-operation in this matter.

Regards,

The Forum Moderators
Please use [email protected] to contact us.
 
PlymSpotter
Posts: 10840
Joined: Thu Jun 17, 2004 7:32 am

RE: 787 Achieves 96.3% Dispatch Reliability

Sat Jan 14, 2012 6:15 pm

In addition to the obvious A380 comparisons, I'd be interested to know how the 787 dispatch reliability stacks up against the 777 when it entered service?


Dan  
...love is just a camouflage for what resembles rage again...
 
a380900
Posts: 805
Joined: Fri Dec 05, 2003 11:26 pm

RE: 787 Achieves 96.3% Dispatch Reliability

Sat Jan 14, 2012 6:33 pm

It's way too early to compare the 787 to anything. It is not doing the normal legs ANA (and Boeing...) intended the plane to do in the first place.

It is a good sign to see that the 787 can fly regularly. That's it. All the planes are hugely overweight and only three (or just two?) have been delivered in 2011.

The 787 as a program is lined up on the runway and Boeing has just released the brakes. It's way too early for these figures. It has not taken to the air yet. One thing is sure, these figures are a much better sign than if ANA reported 50%. But that's it.
 
B738FlyUIA
Posts: 398
Joined: Wed Dec 16, 2009 4:20 pm

RE: 787 Achieves 96.3% Dispatch Reliability

Sat Jan 14, 2012 6:44 pm

Quoting a380900 (Reply 22):

It's way too early to compare the 787 to anything. It is not doing the normal legs ANA (and Boeing...) intended the plane to do in the first place.

It is a good sign to see that the 787 can fly regularly. That's it. All the planes are hugely overweight and only three (or just two?) have been delivered in 2011.

The 787 as a program is lined up on the runway and Boeing has just released the brakes. It's way too early for these figures. It has not taken to the air yet. One thing is sure, these figures are a much better sign than if ANA reported 50%. But that's it.

I could not tell this better then you!!!!!!

On the 20th January the 787 from ANA will make it's maiden flight on a long haul route to FRA!!! I think from a380900 there should be a time ( to me I think a month ) for sure to wait for any thoughts or other statements from users.. Till now as told I'm my reply I think the mark of 96.5% for a new Aircraft in this sector is just really great!!!!! What ever the minors are about the mission 3.5% can be made up on the other segments that are coming up to us and especially on the 787!!!!

Very much would be interesting how the 787 is doing on it's new route to Europe very very soon!!!! Will be there..... meet you soon!!!!!!!!!
 
JAAlbert
Posts: 1980
Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2006 12:43 pm

RE: 787 Achieves 96.3% Dispatch Reliability

Sat Jan 14, 2012 6:52 pm

I don't think Boeing will like those numbers. Boeing I recall touts the 777 as having a 99% dispatch rate.

What's also very interesting about the article -- as of this date - ANA has FIVE 787s!!
 
User avatar
Polot
Posts: 12080
Joined: Thu Jul 28, 2011 3:01 pm

RE: 787 Achieves 96.3% Dispatch Reliability

Sat Jan 14, 2012 7:01 pm

Quoting JAAlbert (Reply 24):
I don't think Boeing will like those numbers. Boeing I recall touts the 777 as having a 99% dispatch rate.

The 777 also is a mature product, and had teething issues just like all new jets do (especially with the GE90s). I am sure Boeing would have been incredibly surprised (albeit thrilled) if the 787 had a 99% dispatch rating from the get-go.
 
roseflyer
Posts: 9602
Joined: Fri Feb 13, 2004 9:34 am

RE: 787 Achieves 96.3% Dispatch Reliability

Sat Jan 14, 2012 7:12 pm

Quoting skymiler (Reply 3):


Exactly how is dispatch reliability calculated? Leaving gate within 15 min of schedule if an mx item is encountered?

Would be very interested to know ...

One of the big problems is that there are many different ways to calculate it and each airline and manufacturer does it differently.

When I worked on aircraft reliability numbers, dispatch reliability was calculated by factoring in all flights that had a delay of any length on departure for a maintenance reason. That led to numbers of about 95% dispatch reliability across a fleet of aircraft.

The problem is, what delays are factored in and what aren't. At the airline I worked at, if a passenger spilled a glass of water and soiled a seat cushion causing departure (release of parking brake) was late at all, it would get coded as a maintenance delay since maintenance is responsible for replacing the seat cushion. This would affect dispatch reliability. Similarly a flight attendant breaking a stowbin latch due to a bin being overstuffed would affect dispatch reliability. That might not make a lot of sense, but at the airline it is up to engineering to find a better way to make replacing the seat cushion faster or deferring the bin latch so that it would not impact the operation and thus was a maintenance issue. Other delays such as off loading a no show passenger's luggage would get coded to airport operations as it was up to them to figure a way to find the bag faster or notify the ramp to begin searching earlier. At that airline, the coding was based on what group would be responsible for fixing the problem, so the overall dispatch reliability numbers were broken down into sub categories.

Another factor is that multiple dispatch rates are examined. An airline might look at Delay > 0, Delay > 15 min, Delay > 120 min, cancellations, Arrival > 15 etc. Each number has value and is reviewed by the airline's reliability department. There might be quite a few delays of a few minutes caused by situations similar to what I mentioned above. While high in count, these don't actually cost the airline very much and can be fixed quickly. Conversely the delays over 120 minutes are much more carefully scrutinized as these can be caused by different mechanical problems. A delay caused by Flight Controls for example is almost never going to get fixed in a few minutes. Those types of delays usually result in missed connections, overnight delays, etc which are quite costly. Therefore the airline has to break apart delays and might tolerate 1 Flight Control delay for every 5 Cabin Furnishings delay.

Boeing takes airline data and filters it to create a dispatch reliability rate for the fleet. They also allow each airline to compare themselves to other operators. The discrepancies are huge, and show that calculating dispatch rate is not a perfect science. Boeing tries to filter out the airline specific elements to calculate the percentage of flights that the airplane itself is available at departure time.

So in the end, every airline does it differently and it is very hard to compare evenly. Some 777 operators have a 99.8% dispatch reliability that they quote while others might be at 97%. The airline at 97% isn't having its airplanes fall out of the sky, and statistically an enhanced reliability program and more proactive maintenance cannot account for the differences. That is with the same model. If you try to compare A vs B on numbers quoted from separate airlines, you can throw statistics out the window because it is far to variable to be a realistic comparison.
If you have never designed an airplane part before, let the real designers do the work!
 
airnorth
Posts: 469
Joined: Thu Jun 09, 2011 7:30 am

RE: 787 Achieves 96.3% Dispatch Reliability

Sat Jan 14, 2012 7:25 pm

I agree with RoseFlyer, statistics can "prove" or "dispute' a lot of different parameters, and one has to be careful in reading too much into them. There really is no way to compare one airline with another, or aircraft with another, unless the data is all treated exactly the same. Even then there could be circumstances which are out of the operators control, such as weather, or third parties, catering etc.
At best, it gives us a snapshot of some data set, which we have no idea how it was collected. But it does give us A.Netters plenty of food for speculation which is fun!

Remember, there are lies......damn lies.......and statistics! Normally in that order..
airnorth
 
User avatar
flylku
Posts: 597
Joined: Sat Apr 08, 2006 10:44 pm

RE: 787 Achieves 96.3% Dispatch Reliability

Sat Jan 14, 2012 7:39 pm

Could someone please provide the "official" definition of Dispatch Reliability.
...are we there yet?
 
sweair
Posts: 1816
Joined: Sun Nov 20, 2011 9:59 am

RE: 787 Achieves 96.3% Dispatch Reliability

Sat Jan 14, 2012 8:15 pm

These sentence trouble me:

"Further, the analysis suggests that on the coming long-range route to Frankfurt, ANA will only yield a 1.2% fuel burn advantage with the 787 compared to a new 767-300ER with winglets."

Where is that 20%? 787 may be a technological step forward but not very economical?

When will the marketing come true?
 
User avatar
Stitch
Posts: 27643
Joined: Wed Jul 06, 2005 4:26 am

RE: 787 Achieves 96.3% Dispatch Reliability

Sat Jan 14, 2012 8:27 pm

Quoting sweair (Reply 29):
"Further, the analysis suggests that on the coming long-range route to Frankfurt, ANA will only yield a 1.2% fuel burn advantage with the 787 compared to a new 767-300ER with winglets."

That figure has to be per seat, and it does make sense because the 767-300ER carries significantly more passengers than the 787-8 in NH's configuration (214 vs. 158) because NH's Business Class on the 787-8 takes up significantly more space (half of the entire plane). If the 767-300ER and 787-8 had similar seating densities, the 787-8 would have a greater advantage.

[Edited 2012-01-14 12:31:11]
 
User avatar
zeke
Posts: 16317
Joined: Thu Dec 14, 2006 1:42 pm

RE: 787 Achieves 96.3% Dispatch Reliability

Sat Jan 14, 2012 8:36 pm

Quoting jetblueguy22 (Reply 11):
How does this compare to say the A380 after several months? Just trying to see if it is any better or any worse.
Blue

Flight Global has covered both of these events now, you can compare them for yourself :

787 as per the OP : http://www.flightglobal.com/news/art...s-963-dispatch-reliability-366915/

It does not mention the sort of utilisation the type is getting, their previous article after a similar time on the A380 EIS

http://www.flightglobal.com/news/art...r-airbus-a380-service-entry-221153

We should keep in mind that the 787 data is just for the last 10 weeks of schedule services, it does not include events prior to that when ANA was operating the aircraft on non schedule services. As these flights are not “schedule”, one cannot really have an OTP number, that does not mean they were without technical delays.
“Don't be a show-off. Never be too proud to turn back. There are old pilots and bold pilots, but no old, bold pilots.” E. Hamilton Lee, 1949
 
pygmalion
Posts: 839
Joined: Thu Jun 29, 2006 12:47 am

RE: 787 Achieves 96.3% Dispatch Reliability

Sat Jan 14, 2012 8:50 pm

just to level set... here is an article from Flightglobal about the A380 two years into service. (Jan 2010)

Some quotes:

Quote:
SIA now has 10 A380s - more than the number of passenger Boeing 747-400s it has in operation. Its A380 fleet's average daily utilisation is about 14h, while technical dispatch reliability (TDR) is "hovering around 97-98%", says Sirisena.

While that number is "not too meaningful" due to the relatively small fleet size, he adds that it is "still very commendable" and is higher than the 747-400 was at the same stage of its development, although Sirisena points out that modern aircraft have a much-increased level of diagnostics available.

The industry's typical technical dispatch reliability benchmark is above 98.5%, and Clark says that while Airbus is guaranteeing 98.5% "we're not there yet. We're at 97%, sometimes 96%."
http://www.flightglobal.com/page/A380-In-Service-Report/

I think the numbers from ANA are 96.5% are promising, there don't seem to be any nagging issues causing inordinate delays and the 787 is fairly typical for a new model or possibly some what better.
 
QANTAS747-438
Posts: 1739
Joined: Mon Jan 22, 2001 7:01 am

RE: 787 Achieves 96.3% Dispatch Reliability

Sat Jan 14, 2012 8:56 pm

Quoting skymiler (Reply 3):
Exactly how is dispatch reliability calculated?
Quoting flylku (Reply 28):
Could someone please provide the "official" definition of Dispatch Reliability.

Dispatch Reliability is essentially the percentage of flights that were dispatched (or flown) that did not incur any mechanical cancellations or delays greater than 15mins. If you have 100 flights, and 2 of them are cancelled due to maintenance and a third flight takes a 25min delay, then you had a 97% dispatch reliability rate. 97/100 pushed on time or were not maintenance related. 3/100 were.
My posts/replies are strictly my opinion and not that of any company, organization, or Southwest Airlines.
 
abba
Posts: 1385
Joined: Mon Jun 06, 2005 12:08 pm

RE: 787 Achieves 96.3% Dispatch Reliability

Sat Jan 14, 2012 9:34 pm

Quoting Stitch (Reply 30):
If the 767-300ER and 787-8 had similar seating densities, the 787-8 would have a greater advantage.

Do you have any suggestion as to how greater this advantage might be? 1.5% better than the 764 seems to be very low comapred to the "20% better" promise that Boeing originally talked about!
 
User avatar
n901wa
Posts: 471
Joined: Thu Oct 15, 2009 5:38 pm

RE: 787 Achieves 96.3% Dispatch Reliability

Sat Jan 14, 2012 9:55 pm

I would like to know what the issues that cause the Dispatch Reliability to be at 96.3% With the new types of systems on the 787, I would like to see what systems caused issues. Would be neat to see what kinds of things that worked and didn't as advertised. I guess its the Inspector in me  
 
User avatar
Stitch
Posts: 27643
Joined: Wed Jul 06, 2005 4:26 am

RE: 787 Achieves 96.3% Dispatch Reliability

Sat Jan 14, 2012 9:56 pm

Quoting abba (Reply 34):
.5% better than the 764 seems to be very low comapred to the "20% better" promise that Boeing originally talked about!

NH is using a fantastic amount of space on the 787-8 with their Business Class product. Because of this, the Business Class cabin on the 787-8 takes up twice as much of the cabin compared to the 767-300ER, even though it only offers less than a third more seats (11). Because of this, the Economy Class cabin is only two-thirds the size of the cabin on the 767-300ER.

Quoting abba (Reply 34):
Do you have any suggestion as to how greater this advantage might be?

I have not as of yet seen a 767-300ER operator release a projected comparison versus the 787-8, but I would I expect it would be at or better than the 20% figure Boeing promoted.
 
nimbus111
Posts: 18
Joined: Tue Jan 10, 2012 10:33 pm

RE: 787 Achieves 96.3% Dispatch Reliability

Sat Jan 14, 2012 10:09 pm

kinda hard to tell with only 2 frames. we'll see.
The more turbulence the marrier :-)
 
User avatar
zeke
Posts: 16317
Joined: Thu Dec 14, 2006 1:42 pm

RE: 787 Achieves 96.3% Dispatch Reliability

Sat Jan 14, 2012 10:24 pm

Quoting Stitch (Reply 36):

I have not as of yet seen a 767-300ER operator release a projected comparison versus the 787-8

That is not correct



I have brought this link ( www.ana.co.jp/eng/aboutana/corporate/ir/pdf/annual/07/07_09.pdf ) to your attention before in Boeing Says Technology Ready For 737 Replacement (by aeropiggot Jun 15 2011 in Civil Aviation) , see your reply 53.
“Don't be a show-off. Never be too proud to turn back. There are old pilots and bold pilots, but no old, bold pilots.” E. Hamilton Lee, 1949
 
User avatar
Stitch
Posts: 27643
Joined: Wed Jul 06, 2005 4:26 am

RE: 787 Achieves 96.3% Dispatch Reliability

Sat Jan 14, 2012 10:34 pm

Then I stand corrected. But there is you answer, abba. I have to assume that at the time NH generated that chart, they intended to have a similar cabin layout with the 787-8 as they did the 767-300ER and therefore the 787-8 would have been in the 220+ seat range.
 
tdscanuck
Posts: 8573
Joined: Wed Jan 11, 2006 7:25 am

RE: 787 Achieves 96.3% Dispatch Reliability

Sat Jan 14, 2012 10:36 pm

Quoting BoeingVista (Thread starter):
96.3%, not bad but not great either.

It's 0.2% from their fleet average...that's good. A new type to an airline, and a new type period, you'd expect to be well below average initially.

Quoting a380900 (Reply 15):
What we need is a comparison between A330, 767, 787 on the same segments over a longer period.

ANA flies 767's too...they're at least partially rolled into their fleet average.

Quoting a380900 (Reply 15):
This figure is irrelevant. 787 is still in "experimental" mode

What does that mean? Nobody accused the A380 of being experimental after it had been in service this long.

Quoting JAAlbert (Reply 24):
I don't think Boeing will like those numbers. Boeing I recall touts the 777 as having a 99% dispatch rate.

The 777 has been in service for 15 years...nobody should expect them to be comparable at this point.

Quoting flylku (Reply 28):
Could someone please provide the "official" definition of Dispatch Reliability.

There isn't one but, crucially, the original ANA report wasn't dispatch reliability, it was on-time departure:
"Roughly 96.3 percent of 787 flights have left on time, ANA said."

That's not the same thing, at all, as dispatch reliability.

Tom.
 
BMI727
Posts: 11300
Joined: Mon Feb 02, 2009 9:29 pm

RE: 787 Achieves 96.3% Dispatch Reliability

Sat Jan 14, 2012 10:38 pm

Quoting tdscanuck (Reply 40):
There isn't one but, crucially, the original ANA report wasn't dispatch reliability, it was on-time departure:
"Roughly 96.3 percent of 787 flights have left on time, ANA said."

   Also, while the US considers withing fifteen minutes to be on time, the Japanese consider more than one minute late a delayed flight.
Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
 
abba
Posts: 1385
Joined: Mon Jun 06, 2005 12:08 pm

RE: 787 Achieves 96.3% Dispatch Reliability

Sat Jan 14, 2012 11:08 pm

Thanks Stich and Zeke - then I sleep much better! 18% is not yet 20%. However it is still early days, so we must expect that the remaining 2% (+!) will be achieved a little further down the line.

NH must indeed spend an awfully lot of space on their premium products!

[Edited 2012-01-14 15:09:27]

[Edited 2012-01-14 15:11:43]
 
UALWN
Posts: 2186
Joined: Mon Jun 01, 2009 3:27 pm

RE: 787 Achieves 96.3% Dispatch Reliability

Sat Jan 14, 2012 11:48 pm

Quoting zeke (Reply 38):

I'm reading that chart as if NH expected the 788 to offer an 18% saving over the 763. For what configuration? That's not clear. So far, however, the advantage seems to be only 1.2%. Why the difference? Well, it can be because the 788 is no as efficient as expected (maybe because the 788s NH has so far are the firsts off the line, very much overweight), or it can be because NH has decided to change the 788's configuration from the time they generated that chart, or it can be due to a combination of both things. I'd bet on the latter.
AT7/111/146/Avro/CRJ/CR9/EMB/ERJ/E75/F50/100/L15/DC9/D10/M8X/717/727/737/747/757/767/777/787/AB6/310/32X/330/340/350/380
 
User avatar
PM
Posts: 5445
Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2005 5:05 pm

RE: 787 Achieves 96.3% Dispatch Reliability

Sun Jan 15, 2012 1:03 am

Quoting BoeingVista (Thread starter):
and have operated two 80-90min flights each day.

Bit sloppy there, Jon. It is actually four flights a day (HND-OKA-HND and HND-HIJ-HND).
 
777-200X
Posts: 24
Joined: Sat Apr 08, 2000 4:17 am

RE: 787 Achieves 96.3% Dispatch Reliability

Sun Jan 15, 2012 2:40 am

Based on the 96.3% reliability number and two and half months in service with 4 flights a day it amounts to 9 flights being not on time out of 300. That is not too bad considering for Japanese airlines even one minute late is not on time compare to how US airlines don't consider a flight being late unless it is over 15 minutes. I suppose if United is the first airline to put 787 in service and of the 9 flights only 3 of them is over 15 minutes late then the dispatch reliability rate would be 99%. Until everyone is calculating the dispatch reliability rate with the same formula it can only be used to give us a directional idea on how the airframe is performing. Given the Japanese methodology of calculating their dispatch reliability rate, I would say 96.3% is really good.
 
User avatar
zeke
Posts: 16317
Joined: Thu Dec 14, 2006 1:42 pm

RE: 787 Achieves 96.3% Dispatch Reliability

Sun Jan 15, 2012 3:10 am

Quoting tdscanuck (Reply 33):
There isn't one but, crucially, the original ANA report wasn't dispatch reliability, it was on-time departure:
"Roughly 96.3 percent of 787 flights have left on time, ANA said."

An on time departure is counted as "on time" if it departs the gate within 15 minutes of the scheduled departure time shown in the carriers' schedule. This is industry wide.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 34):
Also, while the US considers withing fifteen minutes to be on time, the Japanese consider more than one minute late a delayed flight.

No they don’t, not for this purpose. In another system they airline would have their own delay codes, this maybe for ATC clearance for pushback as another aircraft is behind, passenger not turning up and having to offload baggage, IATA has an extensive list of standard delay codes etc, that should not change the "on time departure" as it would be within the 15 minute grace period. Clearly in this context of the “787 achieves 96.3% dispatch reliability” article they are referring to aircraft related delays.

My experience with Japanese ports is they like to get the aircraft pushed back 10 minutes early, for an aircraft to be coming up on the "on time" performance stats in Japan that could indicate an aircraft related delay of over 25 minutes.

Quoting 777-200X (Reply 38):
That is not too bad considering for Japanese airlines even one minute late is not on time compare to how US airlines don't consider a flight being late unless it is over 15 minutes.

That is not true, see above.
“Don't be a show-off. Never be too proud to turn back. There are old pilots and bold pilots, but no old, bold pilots.” E. Hamilton Lee, 1949
 
tdscanuck
Posts: 8573
Joined: Wed Jan 11, 2006 7:25 am

RE: 787 Achieves 96.3% Dispatch Reliability

Sun Jan 15, 2012 4:26 am

Quoting zeke (Reply 39):
Quoting tdscanuck (Reply 33):
There isn't one but, crucially, the original ANA report wasn't dispatch reliability, it was on-time departure:
"Roughly 96.3 percent of 787 flights have left on time, ANA said."

An on time departure is counted as "on time" if it departs the gate within 15 minutes of the scheduled departure time shown in the carriers' schedule. This is industry wide.

Yes, but a late departure is not necessarily counted against dispatch reliability. If you leave 16 minutes late due to boarding delays, you take a hit to on-time departure rate but not to dispatch reliability. The on-time departure rate should always be lower than dispatch reliability because the on-time departure rate includes all maintenance delays *plus* all non-maintenance delays.

Tom.
 
User avatar
lightsaber
Moderator
Posts: 22681
Joined: Wed Jan 19, 2005 10:55 pm

RE: 787 Achieves 96.3% Dispatch Reliability

Sun Jan 15, 2012 5:32 am

Quoting BoeingVista (Thread starter):
96.3%, not bad but not great either.

That was my thoughts. Does ANA really have only a 96.5% dispatch reliability? I suspect they, as others have noted, use a tighter definition than the competition.

Quoting tdscanuck (Reply 33):
That's not the same thing, at all, as dispatch reliability.

If it is on-time, I would say that is a great number. So I'd be intersted to know which metric we're really comparing.

Lightsaber
10 months without TV. The best decision of my life.
 
cloudyapple
Posts: 1261
Joined: Sun Jul 24, 2005 7:01 am

RE: 787 Achieves 96.3% Dispatch Reliability

Sun Jan 15, 2012 7:42 am

Quoting 777-200X (Reply 38):
I would say 96.3% is really good.

The A346 achieved 98.5% and it was described at the time as "a dog" on this forum. Are you sure 96.3% is really good?
A310/A319/20/21/A332/3/A343/6/A388/B732/5/7/8/B742/S/4/B752/B763/B772/3/W/E145/J41/MD11/83/90
 
MadameConcorde
Posts: 9265
Joined: Fri Feb 23, 2007 5:08 pm

RE: 787 Achieves 96.3% Dispatch Reliability

Sun Jan 15, 2012 8:21 am

Quoting abba (Reply 35):
NH must indeed spend an awfully lot of space on their premium products!

I came face to face with JA801 at Haneda airport January 12. I saw the first delivered aircraft taxiing from the ANA lounge and parking at the gate about midday.

I left the lounge and headed to gate 64 for pictures. They were loading and servicing the aircraft, a great number of ramp workers all around like bees around the hive, the engine bay doors were wide opened, the next flight was about to leave 3 hours later. I had to go to gate 67 to catch my ANA domestic flight.

I will be on the frist flight to Frankfurt in the first hour of January 21 but this will be with a new 787 equipped with the Staggered Business seats and leaving from the Haneda International Terminal, not the domestic terminal where I had my encounter with JA801, the very first delivered 787 to a commercial airline.

ANA 787 We Fly First

        
There was a better way to fly it was called Concorde
 
User avatar
AirlineCritic
Posts: 1781
Joined: Sat Mar 14, 2009 1:07 pm

RE: 787 Achieves 96.3% Dispatch Reliability

Sun Jan 15, 2012 8:36 am

On dispatch reliability: I'll join the chorus in saying that it is too early say too much about it. Obviously, a couple of planes on a light and non-typical usage will not mean much. In addition,

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 41):
If it is on-time, I would say that is a great number. So I'd be intersted to know which metric we're really comparing.
Quoting zeke (Reply 39):
My experience with Japanese ports is they like to get the aircraft pushed back 10 minutes early, for an aircraft to be coming up on the "on time" performance stats in Japan that could indicate an aircraft related delay of over 25 minutes.

We seem to have some confusion about what was actually being measured. I think the report said "dispatch reliability", so it could be that the confusion is only in a.net. But if it really is measured in different ways, or if different metrics were used then comparing 96% to 98% is completely pointless.

On performance:

Quoting UALWN (Reply 36):
I'm reading that chart as if NH expected the 788 to offer an 18% saving over the 763. For what configuration? That's not clear. So far, however, the advantage seems to be only 1.2%. Why the difference? Well, it can be because the 788 is no as efficient as expected (maybe because the 788s NH has so far are the firsts off the line, very much overweight), or it can be because NH has decided to change the 788's configuration from the time they generated that chart, or it can be due to a combination of both things. I'd bet on the latter.

Agreed, but I would claim that it is probably a combination of several things: different configuration, very high weight initial frames, early 787s with not all future PIPs implemented, etc. The ANA 787s are not the same ones as will roll out in a year or two from Boeing.

Finally, on status of the 787: I think the interesting news are not the dispatch reliability or efficiency numbers. It is more interesting that ANA is using these early frames in a very light operation, just a couple of short flights a day, on domestic routes. It goes to show that they believe a start-up period is needed. It is of course common for new aircraft to need such a slow start, as there might be issues with the plane itself, maintenance will need to learn how to deal with the plane type in practice, manufacturer wants to come in and make measurements, crews need to familiarize themselves with the aircraft, and so on.

So we are still in that stage. It will be interesting to see when a more commercially typical schedules for ANA's 787s start to appear.
 
User avatar
PM
Posts: 5445
Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2005 5:05 pm

RE: 787 Achieves 96.3% Dispatch Reliability

Sun Jan 15, 2012 8:40 am

Quoting MadameConcorde (Reply 43):
I saw the first delivered aircraft taxiing from the ANA lounge and parking at the gate about midday.

What was it doing in the lounge!? 

Well, just for the record, I was on that flight! It was NH676 from Hiroshima, departing at 10.55 and arriving, as you say, a little after midday.

The following day (my birthday) JA801A operated NH683 HND-HIJ and I treated myself to a Premium (Business) Class flight in seat 1G.

Since my last flight of 2011 was also on JA801A it means that I've made three consecutive flights on her. In 800+ flights I've never before done three consecutive flights on the same plane. How odd that the first time it happens it's on a 787.
 
chiad
Posts: 1372
Joined: Tue May 16, 2006 4:24 pm

RE: 787 Achieves 96.3% Dispatch Reliability

Sun Jan 15, 2012 8:41 am

According to Rheinbote (last post) Airbus said the A380 had dispatch reliability of 99.35%.
A380 Dispatch Reliability? (by Sanjet Jan 28 2008 in Civil Aviation)

Quote:
As of January 14th the A380 accumulated 1,126 flight hours and 155 cycles
There was one aircraft technical delay of 29 min on January 5th
According to Airbus, that's a dispatch reliability of 99.35%, not bad for EIS.
Turn-around times were in line with the 747-400 (~110min), catering was actually faster
 
User avatar
BlueSky1976
Posts: 1893
Joined: Tue Jul 20, 2004 9:18 am

RE: 787 Achieves 96.3% Dispatch Reliability

Sun Jan 15, 2012 9:36 am

I would say that given the amount of new technologies 787 has, the published dispatch reliability is excellent. Please keep in mind that any new type in the fleet will hit its share of snags and teething problems.
Proudly avoiding 737 MAX since 18.11.2020.
 
User avatar
zeke
Posts: 16317
Joined: Thu Dec 14, 2006 1:42 pm

RE: 787 Achieves 96.3% Dispatch Reliability

Sun Jan 15, 2012 10:26 am

Quoting tdscanuck (Reply 40):
Yes, but a late departure is not necessarily counted against dispatch reliability. If you leave 16 minutes late due to boarding delays, you take a hit to on-time departure rate but not to dispatch reliability. The on-time departure rate should always be lower than dispatch reliability because the on-time departure rate includes all maintenance delays *plus* all non-maintenance delays.

I agree with that, but I think you are taking the numbers out of context. In the context of the article, they are talking specifically about aircraft reliability, to get that number you just extract the Technical and Aircraft Equipment (IATA 40 series) delays (TD/TM/TN/TS/TA/TC/TL/TV) out of the list of delays. Delays caused by other reasons are not to be taken into account for this calculation.

This is done by all major airlines I know of anyway, as there is a manager responsible for each and every delay code or group of codes, and they would have to answer for every delay that comes across their desk.

Obviously the IATA 40 and 50 series would directly impact on the ability to dispatch an aircraft.

Quoting AirlineCritic (Reply 44):
I think the report said "dispatch reliability", so it could be that the confusion is only in a.net. But if it really is measured in different ways, or if different metrics were used then comparing 96% to 98% is completely pointless.

I would like to know the "different ways" and "different metrics" you are talking about.
“Don't be a show-off. Never be too proud to turn back. There are old pilots and bold pilots, but no old, bold pilots.” E. Hamilton Lee, 1949
 
4tet
Posts: 91
Joined: Sat Sep 22, 2007 3:18 am

RE: 787 Achieves 96.3% Dispatch Reliability

Sun Jan 15, 2012 11:01 am

I think this is clear:

If the figures of the 1-something % of fuel savings of the 787 vs. 767 is per seat, is obvious that if the 787 has a lot more business seats, the mean revenue per seat ( if full... ) of the plane will be much much higher than the 767, thus making it more profitable:

767 -> Revenue per seat 100 / 'Cost' per seat 100
787 -> Revenue per seat 130 / 'Cost' per seat 98,5

Its pretty clear that the numbers are much more favorable in this case.

R.

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: AU795, Baidu [Spider], blacksoviet, eidvm, iRISH251, Majestic-12 [Bot], MareBorealis, max999, Momo1435, MUCFan, NiallS, Noshow, NZ777ER, PA515, qf2048, sekant, Strato2, The777Man, trexel94, TUGMASTER and 199 guests

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos