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BlueShamu330s
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Rumor: KLM For Sale?

Wed Jan 18, 2012 5:29 pm

I am hearing various rumblings on the grapevine that KLM is being considered by Air France for being sold.

Any word elsewhere?

Rgds



Edited to add, I see it has also now surfaced on Pprune.

[Edited 2012-01-18 09:30:49]
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bmacleod
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Rumor: KLM For Sale?

Wed Jan 18, 2012 5:50 pm

Funny I heard something about BA cancelling it's A380 order in favor of 747-8is.

The above is more likely than AF dumping KL.
"What good are wings without the courage to fly?" - Atticus
 
LHRFlyer
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Rumor: KLM For Sale?

Wed Jan 18, 2012 5:56 pm

The Pprune thread was started by a new poster with nothing to back it up.

Why on earth would AF-KLM sell KLM?
 
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OA412
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Rumor: KLM For Sale?

Wed Jan 18, 2012 6:07 pm

No way is AF selling KL. Most reports indicate that KL is Air France Groups more profitable entity. Besides, the two airlines clearly work well together in terms of route planning. Most people consider one of BA's biggest mistakes their decision not to buy KL when they had the chance, selling KL would, similarly, be one of the biggest mistakes AF will ever make.
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boeing773er
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Rumor: KLM For Sale?

Wed Jan 18, 2012 6:08 pm

Why would AF want to sell KLM? It is profitable, unlike AF.

If anyone would be getting dumped by the deal it would be AF; but I don't think that could happen.
Work Hard, Fly Right.
 
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Polot
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Rumor: KLM For Sale?

Wed Jan 18, 2012 6:14 pm

Quoting OA412 (Reply 3):
No way is AF selling KL. Most reports indicate that KL is Air France Groups more profitable entity.
Quoting Boeing773ER (Reply 4):
Why would AF want to sell KLM? It is profitable, unlike AF.

While I don't think AF/KLM will sell KLM, it wouldn't be the first time that a group has sold off a profitable entity (or the profitable part of the entity) in order to try and rescue the other half.
 
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calpsafltskeds
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Rumor: KLM For Sale?

Wed Jan 18, 2012 6:16 pm

Well, PanAm sold the building instead of the airline.
Maybe DL is interested in buying KL.
 
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Polot
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Rumor: KLM For Sale?

Wed Jan 18, 2012 6:25 pm

Quoting CALPSAFltSkeds (Reply 6):
Well, PanAm sold the building instead of the airline.

They also sold off their profitable Pacific division while holding on to their loss making Atlantic division for a few more years.
 
mikey72
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Rumor: KLM For Sale?

Wed Jan 18, 2012 6:39 pm

Quoting OA412 (Reply 3):
Most people consider one of BA's biggest mistakes their decision not to buy KL when they had the chance,


I know....it was bad timing and a shame for both.

I found this on the possible merger back in 2000.

Sir [Richard Branson] said last night: "This news raises huge competition issues in a number of separate areas. Combined, these two airlines would completely dominate these markets."

He's consistent. Got to say that for him.

Chris Tarry of Commerzbank, said back in 2000: "To me, KLM was never the answer for BA. The failure of the talks poses a much bigger question for KLM and what it does now. For BA the key question is how it now goes about building a bridge across the North Atlantic."

There was always a large degree of scepticism about the rationale for a deal, given KLM's high-level of dependence on low-yielding transfer passengers.

Rod Eddington, BA's chief executive, said the key obstacle had been agreeing a structure which would have given BA control of the merged airline at the same time as guaranteeing KLM's traffic rights, which are granted on the basis that it is Dutch-owned.

The US government had also made it clear that it would not approve a BA-KLM merger unless there was also an open skies agreement between the UK and the US on transatlantic air services.

Interesting because at this point UK-US open skies deal was still 8 years away.

Maybe the BA-KLM deal was a bit before its time ?

[Edited 2012-01-18 10:44:45]
Flying is like sex - I've never had all I wanted but occasionally I've had all I can stand.
 
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Tugger
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Rumor: KLM For Sale?

Wed Jan 18, 2012 6:47 pm

Quoting Boeing773ER (Reply 4):
Why would AF want to sell KLM? It is profitable, unlike AF.

Generally you can only sell something that is profitable (without losing your shirt). There are not many many buyers for something that is not profitable.

Quoting poLOT (Reply 5):
While I don't think AF/KLM will sell KLM, it wouldn't be the first time that a group has sold off a profitable entity (or the profitable part of the entity) in order to try and rescue the other half.

  
Sell it now and use the proceeds to fix the "core" business. It has worked for many, many companies (and of course not worked for many, many companies as well).

Tugg
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. - W. Shatner
There are many kinds of sentences that we think state facts about the world but that are really just expressions of our attitudes. - F. Ramsey
 
kl911
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RE: Rumor: KLM For Sale?

Wed Jan 18, 2012 7:09 pm

Great news if true, KLM is clearly making money and doing things better then AF. Let them stand on their own feed again.
 
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DeltaMD90
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RE: Rumor: KLM For Sale?

Wed Jan 18, 2012 7:40 pm

Quoting CALPSAFltSkeds (Reply 6):
Maybe DL is interested in buying KL.

Lol who knows these days.

I could only see AF selling off KL if somehow that cash would be used to definitely get AF more profitable and it being the last resort to save the airline. I doubt that scenario could take place just like I doubt this rumor completely.
 
mauriceb
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RE: Rumor: KLM For Sale?

Wed Jan 18, 2012 7:42 pm

This isnt going to happen. Dunno how people got a hold of these rumours, but nobody seems to be able to even provide the smallest prove that could indicate the sale of KLM.

Besides, AF-KL are still in the middle of the integration progress, and i haven't heard anything from people who are very involved in this same progress (familie).

Guess the recent reports on the great losses of the AF-KL group got the treadmill of rumours rolling, but with the amount of money they invested in eachother + the recent major wb order, there isn't even a reason to assume they are thinking about it.

Besides, i think both AF and KL need each other more than ever before, and this is the time to show why they merged.
 
B747forever
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RE: Rumor: KLM For Sale?

Wed Jan 18, 2012 8:06 pm

If they really sold KLM, they would get yet another competitor, or IAG/the LH group would get even bigger and stronger. This will only weaken AF's position in Europe even more.
Work Hard, Fly Right
 
PezySPU
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RE: Rumor: KLM For Sale?

Wed Jan 18, 2012 8:10 pm

How about getting rid of those 25% stake they hold in AZ instead? I guess they would sell that if something had to be sold in the first place...
 
SASMD82
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RE: Rumor: KLM For Sale?

Wed Jan 18, 2012 8:14 pm

Quoting BlueShamu330s (Thread starter):
I am hearing various rumblings on the grapevine that KLM is being considered by Air France for being sold.

Funny, is this the first 1st of April joke?  
Quoting bmacleod (Reply 1):
Funny I heard something about BA cancelling it's A380 order in favor of 747-8is

Ah....that's the second...! 
Favouring a less fuel efficient plane....ever since the A340-600 (though much prettier and much more comfortable than the 77W) which is less fuel efficient than the 77W, I don't expect airlines favouring a less fuel efficient plane.
 
AAIL86
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RE: Rumor: KLM For Sale?

Wed Jan 18, 2012 8:54 pm

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 11):
I could only see AF selling off KL if somehow that cash would be used to definitely get AF more profitable and it being the last resort to save the airline

I can't see a scenario where AF sells KL under any circumstances. Why would they- who would then subsidize their substandard operation? The equivalent of this is the unemployed fat guy who wants to divorce his supermodel wife....

Perhaps KLM wants a divorce? Is that even possible??
" Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry, and narrow-mindedness ... Broad, wholesome, charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the earth all one's lifetime. ” - Mark Twain, 1869
 
A388
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RE: Rumor: KLM For Sale?

Wed Jan 18, 2012 8:56 pm

Quoting MauriceB (Reply 12):
This isnt going to happen. Dunno how people got a hold of these rumours, but nobody seems to be able to even provide the smallest prove that could indicate the sale of KLM.

Indeed, we shouldn't worry too much about this subject as there is no evidence that supports this.

A388
 
LHRFlyer
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RE: Rumor: KLM For Sale?

Wed Jan 18, 2012 10:29 pm

The only reason I think KLM would be up for sale was if AF-KLM was under severe pressure to reduce its debts of 6 billion Euros (significantly higher than IAG and Lufthansa) and had no alternative but to break itself up.

In the absence of any quoted source for this, I think it is unfounded.
 
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vhtje
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RE: Rumor: KLM For Sale?

Wed Jan 18, 2012 10:45 pm

Quoting tugger (Reply 9):
Generally you can only sell something that is profitable (without losing your shirt). There are not many many buyers for something that is not profitable.

Oops, you'd better tell that to IAG/BA then, quick, before they finalise the BMI deal with LH.
I only turn left when boarding aircraft. Well, mostly. All right, sometimes. OH OKAY - rarely.
 
jfk777
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RE: Rumor: KLM For Sale?

Wed Jan 18, 2012 10:49 pm

Quoting CALPSAFltSkeds (Reply 6):
Well, PanAm sold the building instead of the airline.
Maybe DL is interested in buying KL.

PA by then had sold Intercontinenal Hotels and later started selling the airline part by part. Very sad ending for the greatest airline.
 
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Tugger
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RE: Rumor: KLM For Sale?

Wed Jan 18, 2012 11:00 pm

Quoting vhtje (Reply 21):
Oops, you'd better tell that to IAG/BA then, quick, before they finalise the BMI deal with LH.

As I said "generally" you can't, unprofitable companies can be of value for other reasons, as is the case here. BMI did have value in the slots they hold and it was this value on which the "price" (it is not fully settled yet) is based.

Tugg
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. - W. Shatner
There are many kinds of sentences that we think state facts about the world but that are really just expressions of our attitudes. - F. Ramsey
 
aloges
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RE: Rumor: KLM For Sale?

Wed Jan 18, 2012 11:11 pm

Quoting SASMD82 (Reply 15):
Funny, is this the first 1st of April joke?

Why on Earth would you believe this to be a joke? AFAIK, this is from the same sources that broke the news on Virgin Atlantic's Concorde fleet!  
Don't cry because it's over, smile because it happened.
 
Viscount724
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RE: Rumor: KLM For Sale?

Thu Jan 19, 2012 1:37 am

Quoting CALPSAFltSkeds (Reply 6):
Maybe DL is interested in buying KL.

Not possible due foreign ownership rules. DL would be limited to 49%, and with their revenue sharing joint venture with KL-AF, what would be the point?

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 22):
PA by then had sold Intercontinenal Hotels and later started selling the airline part by part. Very sad ending for the greatest airline.

Pan Am hadn't been "great" for a long time. They suffered from poor management and were largely responsible for their eventual fate due to many bad decisions.
 
hailstone
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RE: Rumor: KLM For Sale?

Thu Jan 19, 2012 7:08 am

in absence of any quoted sources, this can only be an unfounded rumor - a bit like the one that AirBridgeCargo are closing down operations
 
airproxx
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RE: Rumor: KLM For Sale?

Thu Jan 19, 2012 7:18 am

Quoting poLOT (Reply 5):
While I don't think AF/KLM will sell KLM, it wouldn't be the first time that a group has sold off a profitable entity (or the profitable part of the entity) in order to try and rescue the other half.

Exactly what I thought... But if such a situation could be a good thing for KLM, it would be a disaster for AFR, and AFR is the owner. Shoot themselves a bullet in their own foot... I don't think so.

Quoting SASMD82 (Reply 15):
Funny I heard something about BA cancelling it's A380 order in favor of 747-8is

Ah....that's the second...!
Favouring a less fuel efficient plane....ever since the A340-600 (though much prettier and much more comfortable than the 77W) which is less fuel efficient than the 77W, I don't expect airlines favouring a less fuel efficient plane.

"Less efficient plane"? Which one? Who said the 748i is less fuel efficient than an A380? Proportionally, it appears that the 748i could be a much better performer... So such a decision could make sense.
Don't bury the baby!
If you can meet with triumph and disaster, and treat those two impostors just the same
 
B738FlyUIA
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RE: Rumor: KLM For Sale?

Thu Jan 19, 2012 7:50 am

Interesting!!!!!!

One doesn't decide about this over night!!!! So I wonder why they placed a big ac order last year!!! Does this make sense??
 
captainmeeerkat
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RE: Rumor: KLM For Sale?

Thu Jan 19, 2012 7:51 am

Is KLM actually 'owned' by AF for them to sell it? Or vice vearsa? Can CO sell UA if it so chooses?

I'm led to believe that it was a merger, not an acquisition  
my luggage is better travelled than me!
 
747ata32
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RE: Rumor: KLM For Sale?

Thu Jan 19, 2012 8:45 am

Highly unlikely, if not impossible. AF and KL are already integrated to a level which would cost enormous amounts of money and time to undo.
Flown: 733, 734, 73G, 738, 739, 742, 743, 744, M11, 752, 763, F100, F70, SF340, A319, A320, A321, A332, 772, 77W, D10, D
 
cornish
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RE: Rumor: KLM For Sale?

Thu Jan 19, 2012 9:26 am

Had anyone actually considered that rather than "selling" KLM, they might be selling "a stake" in KLM - two very different things.

It wouldn't be the most unrealistic situation in the world for them to sell a stake to say DL to further tighten the transatlantic partnership and maybe give them a seat on the board.
Just when I thought I could see light at the end of the tunnel, it was some B*****d with a torch bringing me more work
 
LHRFlyer
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RE: Rumor: KLM For Sale?

Thu Jan 19, 2012 9:38 am

Perhaps the OP might care to elaborate as to the source and substance of this rumour?
 
BlueShamu330s
Topic Author
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RE: Rumor: KLM For Sale?

Thu Jan 19, 2012 10:06 am

Quoting cornish (Reply 29):
Had anyone actually considered that rather than "selling" KLM, they might be selling "a stake" in KLM - two very different things.

It wouldn't be the most unrealistic situation in the world for them to sell a stake to say DL to further tighten the transatlantic partnership and maybe give them a seat on the board.

Nice to read a considered response.     
Quoting LHRFlyer (Reply 30):
Perhaps the OP might care to elaborate as to the source and substance of this rumour?

I have heard it mentioned in the past week twice. My old friend Cornish, I suspect, may have heard similar, based on the content of his reply. It did come from a reliable source and is someone who has previous experience of similar divestments in civil aviation.

I did start the thread with a " ? " in the header. This is, as stated, just a rumour going around, but the quality of the source lends me to believe the option has at least been seriously considered and discussed very recently within the company; time will tell.

Rgds
Flying around India
 
mikey72
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RE: Rumor: KLM For Sale?

Thu Jan 19, 2012 10:12 am

Quoting OA412 (Reply 3):
Most reports indicate that KL is Air France Groups more profitable entity

That would lead me to believe that if the rumour were true (!?!) it is actually KL that want out.

It would just be an exercise in damage limitation for AF to go with this line.

Who knows these days ? It's like everything else...we don't know half of what goes on !!
Flying is like sex - I've never had all I wanted but occasionally I've had all I can stand.
 
jeffreyklm
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RE: Rumor: KLM For Sale?

Thu Jan 19, 2012 11:43 am

AF selling KLM would most likely result in a financial problem for AF because KLM has been the profit maker of AF for a long time.
A mile of road or railway leads to nowhere, a mile of runway leads to everywhere.
 
airproxx
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RE: Rumor: KLM For Sale?

Thu Jan 19, 2012 11:57 am

Quoting captainmeeerkat (Reply 27):
Is KLM actually 'owned' by AF for them to sell it? Or vice vearsa? Can CO sell UA if it so chooses?

I'm led to believe that it was a merger, not an acquisition

It was an acquisition of KLM by AFR. So technically, KLM now belongs to AFR. And the whole entity is called AirFrance KLM.
Just like UTA bought AFR some years ago, and lost its name in order to keep the "Air France" brand.  

That said, I agree that KLM is definitely the most profitable entity of the whole group.

The question is, would KLM still be that profitable if the AF/KL group didn't exist?
I don't think KLM would be in such a great financial shape if the merger didn't occur...
If you can meet with triumph and disaster, and treat those two impostors just the same
 
boeing773er
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RE: Rumor: KLM For Sale?

Thu Jan 19, 2012 12:25 pm

Quoting airproxx (Reply 34):

And AF wouldn't be in a huge amount of debt?  
Work Hard, Fly Right.
 
airproxx
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RE: Rumor: KLM For Sale?

Thu Jan 19, 2012 3:42 pm

Quoting Boeing773ER (Reply 35):
And AF wouldn't be in a huge amount of debt?

AF has to restructure if they don't want to sink...
An excellent article has been issue by a blogger in the french newspaper "Le Monde" a few days ago, summing up clearly what's going wrong with the french part of the group.
Mainly, the big issue @ AF is the ratio Operational part employees vs Administration part employees... This ratio is way too low for a modern airline to survive.
AF is slowly becoming a big administration with a little air-club inside....!

KLM made it successfully, now it's AFR turn... Hope they'll make it  

The French have to make example of their Dutch fellows...
If you can meet with triumph and disaster, and treat those two impostors just the same
 
superjeff
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RE: Rumor: KLM For Sale?

Thu Jan 19, 2012 3:58 pm

Quoting captainmeeerkat (Reply 27):

CO cannot easily divorce UA at this time. They are operating on one operating certificate (CO's), as the old UA certificate has been returned to the FAA. If there were to be this kind of divorce, it would require the creation of a new "airline" with a new operating certificate.
 
Nomik
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RE: Rumor: KLM For Sale?

Thu Jan 19, 2012 4:49 pm

I have subscriptions to all the de-indexed Google news articles and I do mean all!
I scanned all of them this morning.
No joy at all and that includes all the French heavies - repeat all!
I think the OP is second guessing though if AF did sell KL it certainly could do so at a profit but would face regulatory approval.
AF SkyTeam reminds me of SR Qualiflyer.
 
draigonair
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RE: Rumor: KLM For Sale?

Thu Jan 19, 2012 5:14 pm

Funny how much havoc one poster (and it was his first post, so who the hell is he/she anyways?) on pprune can create!
Now lets just hope the media won't get in on this...

cheers!
cheers
 
BlueShamu330s
Topic Author
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RE: Rumor: KLM For Sale?

Thu Jan 19, 2012 7:49 pm

Quoting draigonair (Reply 39):
Funny how much havoc one poster (and it was his first post, so who the hell is he/she anyways?) on pprune can create!
Now lets just hope the media won't get in on this...

If you took a few moments to read this thread in its entirety, you would see this thread is not based on the random posting of a new contributor to Pprune.

Enjoy the read.  

Rgds
Flying around India
 
BOACCunard
Posts: 316
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RE: Rumor: KLM For Sale?

Thu Jan 19, 2012 11:25 pm

This doesn't really seem plausible to me, but if there is even a grain of truth to it does anyone else think that there must be a lot of strategy planning going on in London and Madrid surrounding this?

I always thought BA/KL was a better fit than AF/KL... AMS becomes the reliever hub for an overcrowded LHR, connecting traffic is increasingly directed to AMS and LHR becomes more and more O&D focused... Beautiful. And a few years down the road AB can become Deutsche KLM.  
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