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kl911
Topic Author
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KLM Starts Nonstop AMS-TPE From 25MAR12

Fri Jan 20, 2012 11:53 am

This is really good news, also giving UK pax a good one-stop option to TPE now CI is going to cease LHR-TPE.


KLM starting 25MAR12 is introducing Amsterdam – Taipei – Manila daily service, on board Boeing 777-200ER aircraft.

The nonstop flight to Taipei will replace the existing flight via Bangkok. KL does not have traffic rights on Taipei – Manila.
Bangkok will become a terminator, with a 777-200ER/-300ER

Schedules:

Amsterdam – Taipei – Manila
KL807 AMS2040 – 1445+1TPE1620+1 – 1825+1MNL 772 D
KL808 MNL1940 – 2145TPE2310 – 0610+1AMS 772 D


Amsterdam – Bangkok
KL875 AMS1750 – 0935+1BKK 77W x367
KL875 AMS1750 – 0935+1BKK 772 367

KL876 BKK1220 – 1855AMS 77W x147
KL876 BKK1220 – 1855AMS 772 147

Source: http://www.flightglobal.com/blogs/th...1/klm-to-go-nonstop-to-taipei.html

[Edited 2012-01-20 03:55:06]
 
migair54
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RE: KLM Starts Nonstop AMS-TPE From 25MAR12

Fri Jan 20, 2012 11:57 am

Did they stop Manila or the are adding a bit of capacity on the route....

Because I think Manila was a very busy destination in the network.... I heard that the B773ER was pretty full almost all the time...
 
SASMD82
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RE: KLM Starts Nonstop AMS-TPE From 25MAR12

Fri Jan 20, 2012 12:51 pm

Good news! It seems that KL will scrap most tag-ons. Only UIO-GYE, DAR-KIL, EBB-KGl, CGS-DPS and some Caribean routes will have a tag.

Quoting migair54 (Reply 1):
Because I think Manila was a very busy destination in the network.... I heard that the B773ER was pretty full almost all the time...

Correct but is has something to do with the local taxes (for every passenger KL had to pay a tax or so). I don't know exactly what it was all about. That's why the service to MNL is reduced in terms of available seats.
 
cloudyapple
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RE: KLM Starts Nonstop AMS-TPE From 25MAR12

Fri Jan 20, 2012 1:42 pm

They have also filed daily KLM805/806 AMS-HKG-MNL. Not sure if these will actually operate. Surely there is no need for 2 daily flights to MNL!

[Edited 2012-01-20 05:43:17]
A310/A319/20/21/A332/3/A343/6/A388/B732/5/7/8/B742/S/4/B752/B763/B772/3/W/E145/J41/MD11/83/90
 
Akiestar
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RE: KLM Starts Nonstop AMS-TPE From 25MAR12

Fri Jan 20, 2012 3:12 pm

Hm. I wonder why the previous thread was deleted.

Quoting SASMD82 (Reply 2):
Correct but is has something to do with the local taxes (for every passenger KL had to pay a tax or so). I don't know exactly what it was all about.

They say it's local taxes, but they have admitted having a hard time competing against the Gulf carriers.

Quoting cloudyapple (Reply 3):
They have also filed daily KLM805/806 AMS-HKG-MNL. Not sure if these will actually operate. Surely there is no need for 2 daily flights to MNL!

There might as well be because there are no fifth freedom rights for HKG-MNL and TPE-MNL, plus considering that AMS-MNL has consistently high loads, especially in the back. Might as well split the flight into two rather than cram everyone into one plane.
 
HB-IWC
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RE: KLM Starts Nonstop AMS-TPE From 25MAR12

Fri Jan 20, 2012 3:20 pm

Quoting Akiestar (Reply 4):
There might as well be because there are no fifth freedom rights for HKG-MNL and TPE-MNL

KLM would also not have traffic rights on HKG MNL and MNL HKG.

Quoting cloudyapple (Reply 3):
They have also filed daily KLM805/806 AMS-HKG-MNL.

The airline filed for slots for both services because it considered both options. They finally went with the TPE tag and HKG will stay a terminator service for now.
 
Joost
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RE: KLM Starts Nonstop AMS-TPE From 25MAR12

Fri Jan 20, 2012 3:22 pm

Quoting SASMD82 (Reply 2):
Good news! It seems that KL will scrap most tag-ons. Only UIO-GYE, DAR-KIL, EBB-KGl, CGS-DPS and some Caribean routes will have a tag.

Of course, when looking at the network from the 1960s to now, the number of tag-ons has been greatly reduced. However this specific schedule change doesn't change the number of tag-ons. The BKK-TPE tag-on will be suspended, but the TPE-MNL tag-on is new.

Also, EBB-KGL is a very recent route (2006 or something?), and also the Middle Eastern-routes are still triangles and tag-ons.

The rise of codeshare-agreements, connected IT-systems and other partnerships make it often more economical to operate a second leg on a local carrier, but some routes still see tag-ons.

To south-east Asia, tag-ons can be interesting, in order to minimize aircraft downtime on a 'double overnight' pattern. KLM-flights AMS-SIN, AMS-KUL and AMS-TPE (and during S11, AMS-BKK) leave late at night, both ways, in order to operate an attractive schedule. This results in some 8-10 hours downtime in Asia, and this time can be used for a tag-on. Especially when there is a large local market (CGK, DPS), or little competition (MNL), this can prove economically viable.

AMS-UIO-GYE-AMS is mostly a technically required triangle, as UIO's elevation doesn't allow for non-stop UIO-AMS flights.

It's interesting to look at old schedules, like the 1985 KLM schedule. It has routes like:
AMS-VIE-KRT-JRO-LLW (1x weekly 310)
AMS-AUA-PTY-UIO-LIM-GYE-AUA-CCS-AMS (D10)
AMS-ATH-DXB-BKK-NRT (747)
 
sq_ek_freak
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RE: KLM Starts Nonstop AMS-TPE From 25MAR12

Fri Jan 20, 2012 3:22 pm

Quoting Akiestar (Reply 4):
They say it's local taxes, but they have admitted having a hard time competing against the Gulf carriers.

Wasn't it some ridiculous fee/tax on crews laying over in Manila, so KLM's answer to bypass that was to have crews layover at another Asian port and work a turnaround to Manila?

This is really a shame, MNL is loosing its last direct service to Europe (Lufthansa pulling out was truly shocking to me) - and if its indeed over some dumb taxes the government is trying to impose on the airline, its all the more sad.

Incidentally, why is this only an issue for KLM and not any of the other airlines that have crews layover in MNL? EK, EY, QR, DL, CX, QF et. al. all have crews layover in the city...
Keep Discovering
 
Akiestar
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RE: KLM Starts Nonstop AMS-TPE From 25MAR12

Fri Jan 20, 2012 3:33 pm

Quoting sq_ek_freak (Reply 7):
Wasn't it some ridiculous fee/tax on crews laying over in Manila, so KLM's answer to bypass that was to have crews layover at another Asian port and work a turnaround to Manila?

They say it was because of two taxes: the common carrier tax (3%) and the gross billing tax (1.5% on all receipts). The straw that broke the camel's back was the Bureau of Internal Revenue's decision to impose VAT on crew accommodation.

There is a bill pending in Congress which will abolish the common carrier tax, while the Department of Finance has said that it will support measures to repeal these taxes if new revenue sources can be found. If I'm not mistaken, the two taxes provide between P1-3 billion to the state coffers every year.

Quoting sq_ek_freak (Reply 7):
Incidentally, why is this only an issue for KLM and not any of the other airlines that have crews layover in MNL? EK, EY, QR, DL, CX, QF et. al. all have crews layover in the city...

This is why I have suspected that KLM is merely hyping the tax issue and covering up the real reason why it's stopping non-stop flights is because of intense competition from Gulf carriers. This was actually confirmed in a local newspaper (that they're pulling out because of competition): I'm trying to find the article.

EDIT: Can't find the newspaper article, but this might help: http://philippineairspace.blogspot.c...-stops-direct-flight-to-eurpo.html.

[Edited 2012-01-20 07:50:02]
 
sq_ek_freak
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RE: KLM Starts Nonstop AMS-TPE From 25MAR12

Fri Jan 20, 2012 3:42 pm

Thanks for your quick reply!

Quoting Akiestar (Reply 8):
This is why I have suspected that KLM is merely hyping the tax issue and covering up the real reason why it's stopping non-stop flights is because of intense competition from Gulf carriers. This was actually confirmed in a local newspaper (that they're pulling out because of competition): I'm trying to find the article.

Sad reality I suppose - makes sense though, especially in light of Etihad releasing their 2011 pax numbers from MNL! They seem to have had astounding growth in the market.
Keep Discovering
 
KL808
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RE: KLM Starts Nonstop AMS-TPE From 25MAR12

Fri Jan 20, 2012 4:56 pm

After many many years finally KL808 and KL807 flight numbers are back   

It is a shame though that KL had to resort MNL back to a one stop. Hopefully the parties can work something out and we can see a resumption of direct flights.

Quoting joost (Reply 6):
It's interesting to look at old schedules, like the 1985 KLM schedule. It has routes like:
AMS-VIE-KRT-JRO-LLW (1x weekly 310)
AMS-AUA-PTY-UIO-LIM-GYE-AUA-CCS-AMS (D10)
AMS-ATH-DXB-BKK-NRT (747)

Heres from experience 1987 - 1989
AMS-DXB-BKK-MNL-BKK-DXB-AMS (KL807 and KL808)
AMS-LAX-MNL
 
SASMD82
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RE: KLM Starts Nonstop AMS-TPE From 25MAR12

Sat Jan 21, 2012 9:13 am

Quoting kl911 (Thread starter):
Amsterdam – Bangkok
KL875 AMS1750 – 0935+1BKK 77W x367
KL875 AMS1750 – 0935+1BKK 772 367

KL876 BKK1220 – 1855AMS 77W x147
KL876 BKK1220 – 1855AMS 772 147

What will happen with the 747combi on this daily flight? What about the cargo that was carried by this plane? Will they start a freight route to BKK?

Quoting joost (Reply 6):
Of course, when looking at the network from the 1960s to now, the number of tag-ons has been greatly reduced. However this specific schedule change doesn't change the number of tag-ons. The BKK-TPE tag-on will be suspended, but the TPE-MNL tag-on is new.

Also, EBB-KGL is a very recent route (2006 or something?), and also the Middle Eastern-routes are still triangles and tag-ons.

I am not comparing the current network with the network throughout the 60s, 70s and 80s. It is not comparable as most of the tag-ons were fuel stops by then. Nowadays, the reason for a tag-on are - indeed - to do with schedule times, crew rest, technically reasons etc.

I think that KGL was introduced last year, EBB started in 2009. I might be wrong though.
 
draigonair
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RE: KLM Starts Nonstop AMS-TPE From 25MAR12

Sat Jan 21, 2012 11:27 am

Quoting Akiestar (Reply 4):
Hm. I wonder why the previous thread was deleted.

Because i forget to give a source...whoops

cheers
cheers
 
mikey72
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RE: KLM Starts Nonstop AMS-TPE From 25MAR12

Sat Jan 21, 2012 11:43 am

Quoting kl911 (Thread starter):
This is really good news, also giving UK pax a good one-stop option to TPE now CI is going to cease LHR-TPE.

Just out of interest will there be much impact on AF groups traffic to this part of the world when IAG increases service and adds new routes ?
Flying is like sex - I've never had all I wanted but occasionally I've had all I can stand.
 
Akiestar
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RE: KLM Starts Nonstop AMS-TPE From 25MAR12

Sat Jan 21, 2012 11:47 am

Quoting draigonair (Reply 12):
Because i forget to give a source...whoops

I see. But I still find it baffling that KLM is denying this.  
 
corey07850
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RE: KLM Starts Nonstop AMS-TPE From 25MAR12

Sat Jan 21, 2012 12:05 pm

Are they able to overfly China?
 
Joost
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Joined: Wed Apr 20, 2005 8:27 pm

RE: KLM Starts Nonstop AMS-TPE From 25MAR12

Sat Jan 21, 2012 12:15 pm

Quoting SASMD82 (Reply 11):
I think that KGL was introduced last year, EBB started in 2009. I might be wrong though.

EBB was launched with the winter schedule of 2005, initially 3x weekly with the 763. KGL was added with the winter schedule of 2010.

When looking at schedule developments since 2005, the number of tag-on flights has actually increased quite a bit. Most tag-ons are new destinations; non-stop destinations becoming one-stop (like MNL) are rare, though. Another flight that loses it's non-stop connection is AUH from the S12 schedule.

Since 2005, 3 routes have lost an intermediate stop: LIM (first flown via BON), and UIO-GYE (also via BON), and now TPE.

However, quite some new routes with intermediate stops, or tag-ons have been added:
2005: AMS-KRT-ADD
2007: AMS-KWI-MCT (now via AUH, via DOH per S12)
2009: SIN-DPS tag-on. (to be increased to daily per S12)
2010: KGL as a tag-on to EBB (now triangular)
2011: AMS-HAV-PUJ-AMS (PUJ to be suspended already from S12, though)
2012: TPE-MNL tag-on.

So all in all, the number of tag-on or triangular routes has actually increased in KLM's network.
 
LJ
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RE: KLM Starts Nonstop AMS-TPE From 25MAR12

Sat Jan 21, 2012 12:54 pm

Quoting SASMD82 (Reply 11):

What will happen with the 747combi on this daily flight? What about the cargo that was carried by this plane? Will they start a freight route to BKK?

Given the current cargo market to/from Asia the answer is probably not. Note that TPE already has dedicated cargo flights to AMS and it's not that the 777 can't carry any cargo.

Quoting corey07850 (Reply 15):
Are they able to overfly China?

Why not? They seem to have a good relationship with the Chinese (given their network in China). Doesn't CI overfly China on its way to LHR?

Quoting mikey72 (Reply 13):

Just out of interest will there be much impact on AF groups traffic to this part of the world when IAG increases service and adds new routes ?

The question is if IAG will increase much into AF/KLs markets. At present AF/KL dominate China (only LH comes close to the amount of destinations in mainland China) and is the only European airline combination serving TPE (and only Eva competes with Skyteam for direct service from TPE to Europe). Maybe this may change if (or better when) the Chinese investment authority decides to have its European headquarters in London (both Amsterdam and Frankfurt don't seem to care if this lucrative Chinese organization goes to London) but until then I don't see BA starting destinations like Wuhan and Chengdu soon.
 
trex8
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RE: KLM Starts Nonstop AMS-TPE From 25MAR12

Sun Jan 22, 2012 1:39 am

Quoting LJ (Reply 17):
Why not? They seem to have a good relationship with the Chinese (given their network in China). Doesn't CI overfly China on its way to LHR?

Taiwanese carriers even though they now have scheduled flights to mainland China cannot route across central/western China to Europe. CI flies south of the himalayas which is probably why their LHR flight is losing money, its an extra 1000nm.
 
LJ
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RE: KLM Starts Nonstop AMS-TPE From 25MAR12

Sun Jan 22, 2012 12:26 pm

Quoting trex8 (Reply 18):

Taiwanese carriers even though they now have scheduled flights to mainland China cannot route across central/western China to Europe. CI flies south of the himalayas which is probably why their LHR flight is losing money, its an extra 1000nm.

Thanks for the infor.

Anyway block time for AMS-TPE is 12:05 if calculated it correctly (AMS UTC +2 and TPE UTC +8). I would assume that KL will use a different routing as CI uses for their LHR/VIE-TPE as the bock times for these flights are 13:25 and 11:50 respectively.
 
fn1001
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RE: KLM Starts Nonstop AMS-TPE From 25MAR12

Sun Jan 22, 2012 1:29 pm

Quoting trex8 (Reply 18):
Taiwanese carriers even though they now have scheduled flights to mainland China cannot route across central/western China to Europe. CI flies south of the himalayas which is probably why their LHR flight is losing money, its an extra 1000nm.

In 2004 I flew FRA-TPE on CI and we had to fly over Siberia until Chabarovsk and then turn sharp right towards Taiwan, crossing South Korea. It was a 14 hours fligt.
Mai bine să-ţi fie rău decît să-ţi pară rău.
 
Carpethead
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RE: KLM Starts Nonstop AMS-TPE From 25MAR12

Mon Jan 23, 2012 3:15 am

So is KLM going to paint a few 772ERs in KLM-Asia colors?

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